Thread Tools
Old March 3, 2004, 08:30   #61
lightblue
Warlord
 
Local Time: 19:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: L'Boro, UK
Posts: 126
When I was doing research, during the animal handling training we got what basically amounted to anti-terrorism training.
How to spot letter bombs, how to open envelopes you thought might contain dirty needles/razor blades, how to check your car for explosives and what to do if you were being followed. All the adresses were hidden from the general public (unlike most other university staff), the animal house itself involved 2 keycards and one of those were you and the security guy have to turn a key at the same time. And this was only mice...

The Animal Liberation Front and its ilk are fairly despicable. I suppose anti-abortionists are similar in their tactics (in the US mainly), with harassment leading to a fringe group that would violence.
__________________
It’s a great art, is rowing. It’s the finest art there is. It’s a symphony of motion. And when you reach perfection, you are touching the divine. It touches the you of yous – which is your soul. George Pocock
What fun is that? Why all that hard, exhausting work? Where does it get you? What is the good of it? It is one of the strange ironies of life that those who work the hardest, who subject themselves to the strictest discipline, who give up certain pleasurable things in order to achieve a goal, are the happiest. Brutus Hamilton
lightblue is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 08:38   #62
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
Quote:
Originally posted by East Street Trader
Not content with making threats to judges whose judgments they dislike they have taken to publishing the addresses of such judges' mothers.
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 09:34   #63
DaShi
Emperor
 
DaShi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Taste of Japan
Posts: 9,611
Re: Re: Re: Re: Animal Rights and Abortion
Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger


In this case, he's using one single data point to argue a whole issue, a very very bad case of hasty generalisation.
Logic terms.

He's trying to make a point. You could try addressing it. This is an internet forum, afterall.
__________________
“As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
Civ V Civilization V Civ5 CivV Civilization 5 Civ 5 - Do your part!
DaShi is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 09:57   #64
The Templar
Prince
 
The Templar's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: People's Republic of the East Village
Posts: 603
Quote:
Originally posted by Giancarlo
You vegans are an illogical bunch of people.
I'm laughing at this as I eat a cold sausage pizza for breakfast. But I do have vegan friends who are quite logical in their beliefs about not harming and exploiting animals.

Quote:
I eat meat. I like steak. I like pork. No psycho-commie like you is going to stop me from eating it. You are blowing things out of proportion. I am not listening to some psychological piece of work.
"Psycho-commie"?
This just confims my suspicion that you are a bot. Nobody talks like that.
__________________
- "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
- I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
- "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming
The Templar is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 10:20   #65
Rogan Josh
Prince
 
Local Time: 19:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 366
Why should animals have rights anyway?
Rogan Josh is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 10:51   #66
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
Quote:
a frozen embryo that is surplus and will not be used, and with prior approval of the parents, i.e. the standards imposed in Britian for harvesting embryonic stem cells, works quite nicely.
Suppose I also considered you from the same perspective. If your organs can save the lives of 6 people, why should we allow you to live, since the lives of the 6 are much more useful put together, than the life of one?

Secondly, what is needed to make someone surplus? With the total number of people on the planet, what is stopping someone from considering all of us surplus?

Quote:
As a better analogy, if I am brain dead and being kept alive on a ventilator,
The problem with this analogy, is that if you are brain dead, no medical treatment will allow you to recover. You are not being artificially prevented from growing and developing, as found in a frozen embryo. A better analogy would be someone temporarily unconscious.

Quote:
While you may argue whether the frozen blastulas (the stage if I remember correctly they freeze the developing egg) can give consent, the parents can, and since at that point the blastula cannot develop further - they are surplus and will never be implanted. It's loosely analagous to my being an organ donor, and legally in practically the same, at least in GB.
Let me ask you another question. Would a parent be allowed to put their 3 year old child up to donate organs, by giving their consent for the child to donate her organs? Why or why not?

Quote:
They are surplus and will never be implanted.
Is it through any fault of their own, or are they being artificially prevented from doing so?

Quote:
Remember one thing, Ben. Do you want the Catholic Church, Southern Baptist Convention, Mormons, or Muslims, writing our laws and codes of conduct,
And what does any of that has to do with the argument that an unborn child is a person from conception onwards? South Dakota recognises such personhood, not on religious grounds, but on secular.

Quote:
Beware of tramping on the laws that protect me from your religious beliefs,
Again, you must show how this argument has anything to do with religious belief, and not the rejection of utilitarian ethics that reduce all men to their mere functions.

Quote:
That's what they said in Germany in the 1930's.
No, what they did in Germany, was practice eugenics. And is this not what this is all about? Implanting those embryos that make the cut, while calling all the others 'surplus?' It is a dangerous game to begin, to require anyone to argue for his own life. Particularly, when one is unable to speak.
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 10:57   #67
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
Quote:
I suppose anti-abortionists are similar in their tactics (in the US mainly), with harassment leading to a fringe group that would violence.
All prolife groups condemn violence done to abortion providers as unnecessary, and a violation of their rights.

So again, to tar peaceful protesters with the sins of those who bomb clinics, is like blaming Dr. King for the actions of the black panthers.
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 11:02   #68
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
Quote:
Definition:
The size of the sample is too small to support the conclusion.
The sample of all unborn children? That's a rather large sample. The argument is not because of what we see in the one embryo, that all the others should live, but that we should not kill the one, because of what we know about all the other embryos.
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 11:08   #69
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
Laz:

No. Rather if one refuses to eat the chicken embryo, one should also refrain from killing an unborn child.

The inverse is not applicable, in that if one should kill a chicken, one should also be able to kill a person.

Quote:
In this case, it's not hypocrisy, but rather stupidity
Spiffor:

Why, Spiffor? Clearly the person recognises the connection between the developing chicken embryo and the adult chicken. Why should we not also make the same connection between the developing human embryo, and the adult?

And FYI, there is no such thing in biology as a 'fertilized egg.' Sperm and egg cease to be at fertlization.
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 11:14   #70
East Street Trader
Prince
 
East Street Trader's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 814
Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


All prolife groups condemn violence done to abortion providers as unnecessary, and a violation of their rights.
I am glad to hear that Ben.

But I am afraid my reaction to the fundamental merits of the pro-life position cannot help but be influenced a bit by my distaste for the antics of the fanatics.

If there is anything more that rational folk willing to debate the issue in acceptable ways can do to distance themselves from the fanatics it would be as well for that to be done.

A few instances of fanatics being turned in by pro life proponents as disgusted with them as the rest of us would be a help.
East Street Trader is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 11:21   #71
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
Quote:
A few instances of fanatics being turned in by pro life proponents as disgusted with them as the rest of us would be a help.
If any are found to be a member of our club, or to sympathise with their methods, they will be booted out. It would also be enough to show connections between them and the violent groups to do the same.

They cannot be criminally charged until they actually commit the act, rather than just sympathy, so there is no reason to turn them in.

I agree, that should you know one to be guilty, one ought to turn the fellow in, rather than harbouring him and providing him shelter.

Quote:
If there is anything more that rational folk willing to debate the issue in acceptable ways can do to distance themselves from the fanatics it would be as well for that to be done.
I would think refusing to allow the person to participate with the club would be a sufficient deterrent, as well as a public condemnation by the prolife groups of these tactics.

The sad thing, is that even with these measures, there will still be a few people who act this way. No different then with the trials of Dr. King with those who wanted violent actions.
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 11:28   #72
East Street Trader
Prince
 
East Street Trader's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 814
Well, I see that more is done than I thought.

Which is good.

It is a pity when respectable and deeply held views are brought into disrepute by the actions of the unprincipled.
East Street Trader is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 12:11   #73
OzzyKP
staff
ApolyCon 06 ParticipantsDiploGamesPolyCast TeamCivilization IV: MultiplayerC4DG The Mercenary TeamApolytoners Hall of Fame
ACS Staff Member
 
OzzyKP's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 10,595
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Animal Rights and Abortion
Quote:
Originally posted by DaShi


Logic terms.

He's trying to make a point. You could try addressing it. This is an internet forum, afterall.
I thought I made the point rather well. Maybe I'll use some more logic constructs for it. (or attempt it)
Given: Humans are animals.
Given: Person A feels killing animals is wrong.
Given: Person A feels chicken embryos are animals.
Therefore: Person A should consider human embryos are animals too, and feel killing them is wrong.

Unless of course person A has a special exception for chickens, which is highly doubtful. I am certain she would feel the same about cow embryos, dog embryos, fish embryos, etc. But why are human embryos not included in that?
__________________
I was thinking to use a male-male jack and record it. - Albert Speer

When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah
OzzyKP is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 12:13   #74
Spiffor
Civilization III Democracy GamePtWDG LegolandApolytoners Hall of Fame
 
Spiffor's Avatar
 
Local Time: 20:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: jihadding against Danish Feta
Posts: 6,182
Quote:
Unless of course person A has a special exception for chickens, which is highly doubtful. I am certain she would feel the same about cow embryos, dog embryos, fish embryos, etc. But why are human embryos not included in that?
Cause she is stupid and cause her vegetarian commitment isn't backed with any thought?
__________________
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
"I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
"I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Spiffor is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 12:23   #75
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:39
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The sample of all unborn children? That's a rather large sample.
Ben, if you read carefully and think a bit beforehand, I was referring to the sample size that Ozzy used in trying to make his point. That is a sample of 1.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The argument is not because of what we see in the one embryo, that all the others should live, but that we should not kill the one, because of what we know about all the other embryos.
What on earth are you talking about? What do we know about all these other embryos other than they are lumps of cells?
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
Urban Ranger is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 12:26   #76
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
Quote:
Originally posted by Big Crunch
Quote:
I.E. stopping the killing of some non-rational creatures whose death we take for granted
Animal rights is often to do with avoiding unnecessary pain on creatures. E.g Fox hunting, badger baiting, circus bears, pharmaceutical testing of animals etc....
exactly... it's mostly about suffering. Except the real whackos want humanity destroyed and nature to once again rule the Earth. These nutz are about as crazy as the pro-lifers.
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 12:26   #77
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:39
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
Quote:
Originally posted by OzzyKP
Given: Humans are animals.
Given: Person A feels killing animals is wrong.
Given: Person A feels chicken embryos are animals.
Therefore: Person A should consider human embryos are animals too, and feel killing them is wrong.
What I ojected to is your apparent extrapolation of your friend's peculiar position to pro-choicers in general.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
Urban Ranger is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 12:55   #78
OzzyKP
staff
ApolyCon 06 ParticipantsDiploGamesPolyCast TeamCivilization IV: MultiplayerC4DG The Mercenary TeamApolytoners Hall of Fame
ACS Staff Member
 
OzzyKP's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 10,595
I didn't really extrapolate, I just wondered outloud how many pro-choice vegitarians also commit such a hypocrisy. I didn't say that most do.

But my main point was that, putting these hypocrites aside, there should be a natural alliance between animal rights and pro-life folks. Ben, have you ever done outreach to vegitarians?

Btw, I got a pamphlet the other day about Christianity and vegitarianism, and how the two support each other.
__________________
I was thinking to use a male-male jack and record it. - Albert Speer

When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah
OzzyKP is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 12:58   #79
OzzyKP
staff
ApolyCon 06 ParticipantsDiploGamesPolyCast TeamCivilization IV: MultiplayerC4DG The Mercenary TeamApolytoners Hall of Fame
ACS Staff Member
 
OzzyKP's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 10,595
Plus most pro-choicers aren't vegitarians anyways I'd guess, so your rush to condemn my imaginary 'extrapolation' is just a sign of your insecure defensiveness.

So there.

__________________
I was thinking to use a male-male jack and record it. - Albert Speer

When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah
OzzyKP is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 13:03   #80
General Ludd
NationStates
Emperor
 
General Ludd's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Minion of the Dominion
Posts: 4,607
Quote:
Originally posted by OzzyKP
Btw, I got a pamphlet the other day about Christianity and vegitarianism, and how the two support each other.
They do. Afterall, modern farming involves artificial insemination, abortion, rape, and cannibalism. How could a christian possibly eat a hamburger without going straight to the bottom of hell?
__________________
Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse

Do It Ourselves
General Ludd is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 13:04   #81
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
Quote:
Ben, have you ever done outreach to vegitarians?
One of the signs that are done in the States says,

Yes to humane treatment of animals.

No to animalistic treatment of humans.

I can show you the sign, via PM.
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 13:14   #82
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
Quote:
I didn't really extrapolate, I just wondered outloud how many pro-choice vegitarians also commit such a hypocrisy. I didn't say that most do.
Two of my cousins are pro-choice, vegetarian women... (32 and 28 respectively) the younger says (as I've posed the question before) that animal rights IS about suffering and not death. She is a vegetarian because of health reasons (especially now that a Republican de-regulation administration is in office ) and animal suffering. She says she is against abortion, but it should be her choice, not the government's.

Plus, an animal is a self-aware lifeform. Fetuses... well... aren't. I don't know about you guys, but I don't remember being aware in the womb. And if I was aborted, I wouldn't have even known or felt it.

Deep down, I still believe the pro-life stance is about a sense of control over women's bodies and not the suffering of unborn fetuses. If pro-lifers were genuinely concerned about the welfare of children, they wouldn't support right-wing social policies. Granted, there are some who do care about child-welfare, but they are few and far between.

The two issues aren't related at all. In fact, I bet more pro-lifers are part of the right-wing anti-animal rights crowd.
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 13:22   #83
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
Quote:
She says she is against abortion, but it should be her choice, not the government's.
So what about ranchers? Shouldn't they be able to kill animals if that is their choice?

Quote:
Plus, an animal is a self-aware lifeform. Fetuses... well... aren't.
All forms of animal life are self-aware? That's an interesting definition, if you can also reject unborn children.

Quote:
I don't know about you guys, but I don't remember being aware in the womb.
My earliest memory is when I was three. Does this mean my mom should be able to kill me up until that age?

Quote:
And if I was aborted, I wouldn't have even known or felt it.
Oh, you would have felt it. The Lancet recommends the use of anaesthetia for the unborn children in an abortion.

Quote:
Deep down, I still believe the pro-life stance is about a sense of control over women's bodies and not the suffering of unborn fetuses.
And what about the majority of prolifers, whom are women?

Quote:
If pro-lifers were genuinely concerned about the welfare of children, they wouldn't support right-wing social policies.
Such as no child left behind? I fail to see how such right-wing social policies hurt children.

Quote:
The two issues aren't related at all. In fact, I bet more pro-lifers are part of the right-wing anti-animal rights crowd.
You are correct, that they are two different issues. However, it still remains for the pro-choice vegetarians to justify why they treat an unborn child worse then they do any other animal.
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 13:30   #84
Sava
PolyCast Team
Emperor
 
Sava's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: mmmm sweet
Posts: 3,041
Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So what about ranchers? Shouldn't they be able to kill animals if that is their choice?
if those animals were inside the ranchers bodies, and not having the right to control their bodies was a threat to their health, then yes. But the two aren't related, as you try to connect them.
Quote:
All forms of animal life are self-aware? That's an interesting definition, if you can also reject unborn children.
it depends... I'm not going to define which animals are or aren't "self-aware" the point is, there is unwarranted suffering in the case of animal rights, and well, there isn't any (detectable) suffering in abortion. Death does not equal suffering. If anything, abortion is akin to euthenasia.
Quote:
My earliest memory is when I was three. Does this mean my mom should be able to kill me up until that age?
yes... but just you jk

infanticide has been a part of human civilization longer than marriage... but yet tradition is one of those excuses you use for the gay marriage argument... so which is it? is tradition good or bad... you can't have it both ways.
Quote:
Oh, you would have felt it. The Lancet recommends the use of anaesthetia for the unborn children in an abortion.
fine, then use anaesthesia...
Quote:
And what about the majority of prolifers, whom are women?
they don't have the right to usurp other women's rights either.
Quote:
Such as no child left behind? I fail to see how such right-wing social policies hurt children.
you obviously aren't following how terrible a policy that is... you seem to be failing to see a lot of things then.
Quote:
You are correct, that they are two different issues. However, it still remains for the pro-choice vegetarians to justify why they treat an unborn child worse then they do any other animal.
because an unborn child (except those intended to be born) has little value... plus, if this is about hypocrisy, the right-wing pro-lifers (of which there are MORE of) are much more hypocritical when it comes to child welfare. Once they're out of the womb, righties cease to be "pro-life".
__________________
(\__/) "Sava is teh man" -Ecthy
(='.'=)
(")_(") bring me everyone
Sava is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 13:44   #85
The Templar
Prince
 
The Templar's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: People's Republic of the East Village
Posts: 603
Quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Why should animals have rights anyway?
Why shouldn't they?
__________________
- "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
- I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
- "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming
The Templar is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 13:47   #86
Ben Kenobi
Civilization II Democracy GameCivilization II Succession GamesCivilization II Multiplayer
Emperor
 
Ben Kenobi's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: San Antonio
Posts: 18,269
Quote:
and not having the right to control their bodies was a threat to their health,
Are most pregnancies a threat to the health of a woman?

Secondly, is the unborn child a part of the mother's body? If so, how does the child become a baby at birth, and distinct from the mother?

Quote:
I'm not going to define which animals are or aren't "self-aware" the point is, there is unwarranted suffering in the case of animal rights, and well, there isn't any (detectable) suffering in abortion.
Yet,

Quote:
fine, then use anaesthesia...
So the children do suffer unnecessarily, for the convenience of the mother in an abortion. Seems to me if you believe in animal rights, you should also protect the unborn children.

Quote:
infanticide has been a part of human civilization longer than marriage... but yet tradition is one of those excuses you use for the gay marriage argument...
Are you defending infanticide, or not, Sava? If not, why not?

Gay marriage has nothing to do with this issue, so please try to keep up, eh?

Quote:
is tradition good or bad... you can't have it both ways
The tradition has been, at least in Western Society, to value children, not to dispose of them in the trash.

Quote:
you seem to be failing to see a lot of things then.
Regardless of these other positions, will you agree with me that it should be wrong to kill an innocent person in an abortion?

Quote:
because an unborn child (except those intended to be born) has little value
Interesting. You prove my very first point in this thread. Liberals believe in constructed worth, and not intrinsic value.
__________________
Scouse Git (2) LaFayette and Adam Smith you will be missed
"All my own perception of beauty both in majesty and simplicity is founded upon Our Lady." - JRR Tolkein
Get busy living or get busy dying.
Ben Kenobi is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 13:52   #87
The Templar
Prince
 
The Templar's Avatar
 
Local Time: 13:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: People's Republic of the East Village
Posts: 603
Quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Liberals believe in constructed worth, and not intrinsic value.
That's an overgeneralization.

BTW, since when do Christians (left or right) believe in the intrinsic worth of people? Isn't the moral worth of people conferred by God? That sounds external, not intrinsic.
__________________
- "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
- I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
- "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming
The Templar is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 13:55   #88
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
Quote:
Originally posted by Rogan Josh
The animals killed in modern slaughterhouses are killed quite painlessly.
That's what they want you to believe, but it's not universally true.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 13:58   #89
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
Quote:
Why shouldn't they?
Because we decided they are too tasty for that . Society determines rights. Animals can't join our society (they aren't built for it) and thus do not gain humanity's rights.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old March 3, 2004, 14:09   #90
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
Quote:
Originally posted by Rex Little
Slight nitpick: isn't Andrea Dworkin a "she"?
Andrea Dworkin, yes. Phillip Dworkin, no. Check the link.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 14:39.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team