Best debater award - Page 3

The Emperor Fabulous · March 6, 2004, 19:18

Oncle Boris:

I hope you don't think Evan von Christoph is a "noob"

Him, Asher, and Orange all get my votes

Kuciwalker · March 6, 2004, 19:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Oncle Boris

Thus, debates that involve Imran?

More like debates that involve YOU. Imran is fine.

Kuciwalker · March 6, 2004, 19:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Agathon

Who?

You mean "Whom?"
[/nazi]

Kuciwalker · March 6, 2004, 19:23

MtG
Imran
CBH

Oncle Boris · March 6, 2004, 19:25

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker

More like debates that involve YOU. Imran is fine.

Imran is a fine dialectician, but he's weak in conceptual debates. Plus he never admits defeat. Now, to YOU.

You are quite smart for your age, but you have much to learn. Must I remember you that you put me in the looney bin for introducing you to 'philosophy of language', an obligatory topic to anyone who has to study philosophy?

And you still have to get a clue about free will.

Oncle Boris · March 6, 2004, 19:27

Quote:

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
Oncle Boris:

I hope you don't think Evan von Christoph is a "noob"

Him, Asher, and Orange all get my votes

for Asher

And I'll add this Evan, who has not posted anything in the last three months. Alas, it seems like I'm the noob here.

Agathon · March 6, 2004, 19:30

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker

You mean "Whom?"
[/nazi]

No, since the implicit question is "Who is is that?".

"Whom" is used for the direct and/or indirect objects of a sentence IIRC.

/counter nazi.

Berzerker · March 6, 2004, 19:41

1) Wraith
2) Ramo

3) Ben Kenobi
3) Mindseye

4) Dinodoc
5) Giant Squid

Kuciwalker · March 6, 2004, 20:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Agathon

No, since the implicit question is "Who is is that?".

"Whom" is used for the direct and/or indirect objects of a sentence IIRC.

/counter nazi.

"Who is is that" ??? (I'll assume you simply typed "is" twice)

Well, that's the inversion of "That is who", where "who" is being used (incorrectly) as an object pronoun. It should be "That is whom"

/countercounter nazi

alva · March 6, 2004, 20:09

Whom cares....

Dauphin · March 6, 2004, 20:16

Quote:

Originally posted by skywalker

"Who is is that" ??? (I'll assume you simply typed "is" twice)

Well, that's the inversion of "That is who", where "who" is being used (incorrectly) as an object pronoun. It should be "That is whom"

/countercounter nazi

You use "who" as the subjective form (e.g "he"/"she"/ "they"), and "whom" as a direct or indirect object (e.g "him"/ "her"/"them"):

As the grammatically correct question is "who are they?" or "Who is he?" not "Whom are them" or "Whom is he?"Agathon is correct, in his usage of "who" at least..

Edit - almost irrelevant typo.

Spiffor · March 6, 2004, 20:20

GePap
Plato
Azazel

Agathon · March 6, 2004, 20:21

Yes, the shame of the double "is" somewhat undermines my credibility.

The Emperor Fabulous · March 6, 2004, 20:21

IIRC, Evan is now Thorn

Right?

Oh, and the three that Mono said are all from years ago

Drogue · March 6, 2004, 20:28

This is hard to do. There are many good debators. It's more a style thing. For example, Skywalker I respect greatly, and while I disagree with his opinions on most things, he strikes me as intelligent. Yet his debating style, involving capitals a lot, seems to be patronising, especially when it's not needed. Fez must be there as a joke. Ben Kenobi, while he has shown he can debate well, and is indeed the only hardline Catholic I've seen that can discuss their policies well, I'm not sure he'd be in my top 3. Oncle and Whaleboy use way to many -isms and generally take debates into a realm that isn't necessarily as grounded in reality as I'd like, so while I agree with some of their opinions, I wouldn't put them in my top 3. Imran would be true, but I haven't seen that much of his actual debating, and more of him having fun, it seemed to me.

Two I'm pretty sure about. Spiffor and Jaguar Warrior. Spiffor will almost certainly win this, and deservedly so. He knows his stuff, he can draw on both sides of the argument, but has his own firm (and occasionally slightly extreme) beliefs. But his contraversial posts on things like underage sexual abuse (a while ago) and the French anti-religion, which not only I agree with, but also are well argued and respecting of others. That's one of the main difference, apart from obviously opinions, I've seen in style between him and Ben Kenobi. He's also a thoroughly nice guy, which always helps in debating. JW has a lot more maturity than his age would suggest, and while I disagree with him on many issues, he seems to be able to debate them eloquently and respectfully, and even to reach a consensus in the middle at times. A lot of kudos for both IMHO

The last I'm really not sure about. Slowwhand, while I disagree with him on a lot, we manage to discuss and agree on much, even some things about Iraq, like the motivations of various people, that I respect him for, while disagreeing with him greatly. Ramo also seems intelligent and argues well about things. However I'm not sure I'd put either of those in the top 3. The last one I can't decide on yet. So I'll leave it at two for the moment.

David Floyd · March 6, 2004, 20:45

1)Wraith

2)Berzerker

3)MtG

Kuciwalker · March 6, 2004, 20:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Crunch

You use "who" as the subjective form (e.g "he"/"she"/ "they"), and "whom" as a direct or indirect object (e.g "him"/ "her"/"them"):

As the grammatically correct question is "who are they?" or "Who is he?" not "Whom are them" or "Whom is he?"Agathon is correct, in his usage of "who" at least..

Edit - almost irrelevant typo.

Not "Whom are them" but "Whom are they". "Whom are they" is the inverted form of "They are whom". It would be incorrect to say "They are who".

Agathon · March 6, 2004, 20:53

No skywalker. Word order is grammatically significant in English.

Quote:

The distinction between "who" and "whom" is basically simple: "who" is the subject form of this pronoun and "whom" is the object form. "Who was wearing that awful dress at the Academy Awards banquet?" is correct because "who" is the subject of the sentence. "The MC was so startled by the neckline that he forgot to whom he was supposed to give the Oscar" is correct because "whom" is the object of the preposition "to." So far so good.

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/who.html

If you are right, what is the subject of "Whom is wearing the red dress?" or "Whom are they?"

Ming · March 6, 2004, 20:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
And I'll add this Evan, who has not posted anything in the last three months. Alas, it seems like I'm the noob here.

Yep... EVC still posts under the Thorn handle (when he's not restricted)... he was posting just last week

Kuciwalker · March 6, 2004, 20:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Agathon
No skywalker. Word order is grammatically significant in English.

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/who.html

If you are right, what is the subject of "Whom is wearing the red dress?" or "Whom are they?"

I'd think it would be "they", because as I mentioned in the last two posts it's simply "they are whom" inverted ("inversion" is actually a grammatical term, at least according to my French teacher). In "who are they" you'd have two subject pronouns on opposite sides of the verb.

Agathon · March 6, 2004, 21:06

If they is the subject and whom is the object, then each word must refer to different things. No item can be both the subject and the object unless you use a reflexive pronoun (himself, herself, itself, themselves). e.g. "He washed himself".

"They" is a demonstrative pronoun (that, those, them) and "whom" is an interrogative pronoun (who, whom, which).

So you can't be right.