Turn 2159

[Mead]

Comrads

I'm back on-line.

and I will stay on-line for about an hour.

Please give m some guidnce on what you want to do.

I would like to fix the mistakes Kody noted in his post.

I would also submit to the Will of the People should they seek to have another play the Turn.

If we go with the turn I did then,

Hong Hu

You are good at teraforming. Would you be so kind as to open the turn fix the teraforming mistakes. That Borehole I started on a river, and other mistakes can be used as 'stored teraforming' for next turn.

Then let me know if you will post the Turn.

I hav to log offin about an hour so if noone more experienced is able to post this turn I will do so before I log off.

Mead

PS
If Hong Hu is not on-line or can't do it then someone else. Please let me know
.

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu
We will always have our chances Comrade Jamski. As long as we still believe in ourselves. To me, it is not about whether a turn should be used or not. It is more about how we as a team should work together. I guess I have failed again. The Hive cannot be put together based on persons. We need rules to hold everybody together.

Hong Hu

You have no responsibilty for the Turn I played.

I did the turn. My doing the Turn was not a failure of your's.


Mead

[Snowflake]

No I was not saying that the turn is a failure. I haven't looked at the turn for I don't have access to the game here. But from what you said I think the turn is played pretty well. What I meant by saying that I failed is that I do not want to see us unable to work with each other. And it seemed that I have not been able to pursuade everybody.

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu
No I was not saying that the turn is a failure. I haven't looked at the turn for I don't have access to the game here. But from what you said I think the turn is played pretty well. What I meant by saying that I failed is that I do not want to see us unable to work with each other. And it seemed that I have not been able to pursuade everybody.

Hong Hu

You did not fail.

You are very valuable at holding the team together.

You have shown a great deal of patience with us and stuck with us as th soul of the team for long before I got here.


Can you use your teraforming/building skills to incorparate some of the changes Kody sugested and post the turn?


Mead

[Snowflake]

Thank you Mead. I do feel that the team cannot be hold together simply on a personal basis. We need to think about this.

On the turn, I can't access the game until I go home in 6 hours. And I won't be able to do the game until another 4 hours. I suggest we wait a little bit until one of the god appears. If it is ruled that we should use your turn then we can make the teraforming changes and post the turn. I will do it if it is delayed till I'm able to do it, otherwise somebody else will have to do it. If it is ruled that we can replay then we should have some extensions allowed.

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu
Thank you Mead. I do feel that the team cannot be hold together simply on a personal basis. We need to think about this.

On the turn, I can't access the game until I go home in 6 hours. And I won't be able to do the game until another 4 hours. I suggest we wait a little bit until one of the god appears. If it is ruled that we should use your turn then we can make the teraforming changes and post the turn. I will do it if it is delayed till I'm able to do it, otherwise somebody else will have to do it. If it is ruled that we can replay then we should have some extensions allowed.

Are you saying we are safe to exceed the 48 hours until we have a ruling from the Gods on which turn to play?

I trust your judgement.

If you say wait, I will wait.


Mead

[Mead]

Originally posted by Mead


Are you saying we are safe to exceed the 48 hours until we have a ruling from the Gods on which turn to play?

I trust your judgement.

If you say wait, I will wait.


Mead

Hong Hu

Please confirm. Are you saying wait until a ruling to see if we will play my turn or another player's turn?

Please let me know yes or no.


Mead

[Mead]

OK, I see your post in the open Turn Thread. I will NOT post the turn.

I will not do any teraforming corrections, or production changes.

We will wait for a ruling from the Gods.


Mead

PS

Below is Hong Hu's Post in the Open Turn Tracking II Thread

HongHu
Princess
of Love
Apr 2003
time: 12:02
09-03-2004 10:00 | profile | pm | search | buddy
edit | quote
link | report | ip
<http://207.44.245.200/civ2/images/site/blank.gif>
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This is a notification that the Hive may not post its turn in time. I am PMing the gods regarding an urgent internal matter. The Hive will post its turn following the rulings of the gods.

[Mead]

I'm logging off now.

I will return in about 5 or 6 hours.


Mead

[Jamski]

Thanks Mead

I've realised the problem with this team - you're all on USA time except me.

-Jam

[Mead]

What's happening with the turn?

Has Googlie decided?

Hong Hu, have you redone the teraforming?

Who's going to post the turn?


Mead

[Arnelos]

I have to say that I'm rather impressed by Mead's handling of this. A lesser person would have collapsed or gotten overly defensive under the pressure. I know all too well the pressures of being a turnplayer in a DG and you're handling this crisis admirably.

While I may personally think it would be advantageous to replay various elements of the save, it may not be legal within the rules of the game to do so (and replaying saves makes me uncomfortable in ANY case). Do what you can within the rules and that will suffice.

I agree with Comrade Rubin... we need to focus on M.Y. 2160 now.

[Snowflake]

Sorry guys for disappearing on you. I had to go to a meeting in the afternoon. Will not be online tomorrow too, for I need to go out of town.

tass is on now I will try PM him again.

[Snowflake]

tass's pm box is still full and he went offline too. I'll try to find him when he is on again and talk to him.

[Mead]

Thank you Arnelos.

I looked at my save to see how it looked.

I agree with Kody in that there was one base that was all set to go into riots next turn. (there might be others that might go into riot because they migh grow a pop, I need to recheck). I think it was Octavianburg. If you look at the save i posted yesterday you can see it. It is a Pop 4 base. I changed one of the workers to a doctor. I have not posted that save anywhere yet. It would be better if it was a Pop 5 base.

Although the teraforming comments that Kody made were very accurate, I understand that these teraformers that are on rivers making boreholes can be moved next turn to the target square and devote 2 not 1 teraform turn to the target square (I think this is called saving former moves).

I did not change the base making a Net Node to another unit to something else because we would lose one min. I realize that 1 min is not much, but I would rather not lose it since the Net Node will come in handy. That being said, I am fully willing to change it to something we might need sooner. My suggestion is a needlejet. I like needlejets for the longe range recon and strike capabilities they give us.

I would appreciate a more expeianced player looking over the composition of the specialists in our bases to maximize the benefit they give us. I am used to using doctors as required, then thinkers, and Transcendents. I will use librarians to a lessor extent too.

But I realize that my skill at choosing the specialist mix is inferior to others here. I was amazed at how they were being used hen I first got here. Recently it looks like we are heading to a heavy doctor (in bases less than 5) and thinker (inbases at least 5) mix.

I know we are, as we should be, going high military unit production right know over a high research/cash outlook, but please review the specialist mix and give suggestions.

Mead

[Mead]

I will be logging off shortly and probably will not log on again until about 7PM tomorow evening.

If, after the Gods render their decision, it is decided to use the turn I played, and it is desired that the turn be posted to the Open Turn Tracking Thread before I log on again then,

Whoever posts, please note the comments I made in my last post in this thread and make the changes before you hit End Turn and save the post.

1. Ensure we don't have any bases that have more drones than talents. (Including checking to see if there are any that will gain in Pop and gain a Drone).

2. Check to see if a more efficient use of our Specialists can be made.

3. Consider changing the net node under constrution to a needlejet. I suggest asking Rubin. If he says change it then I would agree even if we lose one mineral. I am thinking that the needlejet will be more useful right now than a net node there, but is it worth the cost? (I think it may be)

4. We have about 54 ECs left over. What do we want to do with it? Save it? Give it to Peace? (They might be a lost cause) Rush Bio Center in Hong Hu Kong Hu or something else? Realize that with the start of the war our commerce income (as well as Uni's and CyCon's commerce income) will be reduced.



Mead

[Frankychan]

Lots of respect here for Comrade Mead.

For your questions.

1 (point 3). Agreed that changing the netnode to a Needlejet is better. I see us getting more immediate use out of the noodle than a netnode.

2 (point 4). Keep the creds. The PEACE predicatment is very unstable, and if we give them the creds who knows where they'll end up? Maybe in the CPU's coffers or sent to them as tribute. With all the upcoming plans for the military, I believe our budget needs whatever creds we have saved.

[Snowflake]

Comrade Mead, I saw that you are online. Would like to know if you are going to redo the turn or if you would like me to do it. Comrade Rubin indicated that he would not be able to do it.

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu
Comrade Mead, I saw that you are online. Would like to know if you are going to redo the turn or if you would like me to do it. Comrade Rubin indicated that he would not be able to do it.

I could do it, but I want explicit instructions on what is to be done.

Plus look at the new thread I posted and let me know what you think.


Mead

[Snowflake]

I went ahead and did the turn since it looked that we can't delay any longer.

Here is the save before end turn. I have forgotten to offer peace treaty to CC.

[Snowflake]

I have done 2 and 3 in Mead's suggestion because it is agreed upon before the turn. Here's the builds for each base:

[Snowflake]

I think I wasted some of our ecs (30 perhaps) by upgrading scouts to polices in some bases because I wasn't able to differentiate super drones. And I'm not sure if the building queues are the most optimal since it is done kind of in a hurry. But at least I've got most of the bases building planes and drop units according to Rubin's order.

[Snowflake]

Also we've got two badly damaged choppers in the east front. But they are still alive. And there will be a new chopper entering service the next turn in case there is a need in that front.

[Snowflake]

Should I post it? Impaler is right that we've past 4 days actually.

Before I post I'd like to know if anybody's got an opinion regarding whether we should offer CC a treaty?

[Arnelos]

Well, if we offer CC a treaty, my understanding is that some on the team may find this underhanded and they don't like that.

Aside from that problem, I have no issues with it. Personally, I think the 1-turn deception may well be worthwhile. Up to you, in the end.

[Snowflake]

Yea I kind of agree. If we offer CC a treaty then anounce vendentta even before our next turn, it seems that we are really deceiving them. I guess I'll simply PM them about the killing of the CP and not offer a treaty then.

[Snowflake]

Roze has changed her production at conshelf57 to a garrison. So that may mean that Peace won't be able to take the base anyway. I'm not sure about the turn order. Is Roze before or after Peace? Will that make any difference?

[Mead]

Originally posted by HongHu
Roze has changed her production at conshelf57 to a garrison. So that may mean that Peace won't be able to take the base anyway. I'm not sure about the turn order. Is Roze before or after Peace? Will that make any difference?

Click on th Comm Link button at the right of the screen. It appears to number the factions in order of their play.

Makulua is number 4.
Roze is number 6.

The base pop is 2. If Peace survives CyCons turn it looks like Peace will be able to take the base. The possibility that there is another CyCon unit close enough to occupy Conshelf57 before Peace's turn, is low.


Mead

[Mead]

I have over the past several days tried to convince the Hive to keep the turn I played. In my arguments I tried to focus the people on making their decision based solely upon what they felt was best for the Hive. The new Turn has been posted, Uni used it and forwarded the Turn onto CyCon.

The people of the Hive are entitled to know why I played the Turn I did, and I am entitled to respond to criticism I have received over the past few days. My earlier posts dealt with whether the Turn would be in the best interests of the Hive. This one deals with the question, "Was the Turn I played known by and authorized by the People?" It was.

Now. A little venting of steam.

There are two things that have been alleged that are inaccurate:
First, I did not Play the Turn in opposition to the entire rest of the Hive. When I logged off the internet at 23:51 to play the Turn there were four Hive members in support of the turn. I was extremely detailed in explaining what I was going to do. I played the Turn I said I would. But after I played the Turn and I logged back into Apolyton at 01:38 and reported the results, those who supported the turn turn against the Turn (I am not sure about Frankychan).

Second, it has been suggested (and corrected) several times that I played the Turn without consulting Buster. I did consult Buster before the Turn and obtained his agreement that we would take Longreach.


In the course of my last turn (please look closely at the times on posts in the threads) at 23:51, when I signed off I had the support of four Hive members (Mead, Arnelos, Frankychan, and apprehensively Hong Hu).

One member (Rubin) was opposed to the attack. I recognized that Rubin had a good skill base, but was very new to this game. Several of the things he said in his 08-03-2004 03:21 post indicated that he was not fully up to speed on the game, following his suggestions would have certainly led to the death of Peace.

One member (Jamski) was silent. A couple of you were enthusiastic (Arnelos, Frankychan) (All of you knew exactly what I was planning to do. Several of you Frankychan, Arnelos, Hong Hu and answered my questions on how to do it, including how to declare Vendetta).

After I logged off, and during my playing of the turn, Hong Hu turned against my proposal. You were worried about probes and Arnelos grew worried. After I logged off, Hong Hu tried to stop the Turn. After I posted the results of the Conshelf57 battle Jamski turned against the Turn.

I did not mention this earlier because I did not want our people to base our decision to play my Turn upon any guilt for failing to protest the playing (or support) of the Turn before I played it, rather I wanted our people to make their decision based on what they felt was best for the Hive.


Mead

PS
I am a little sorry (but not too much) about letting you all know a little of how I feel about how things happened. I have held my tongue over the past few days, but I can tell you they have not been pleasant. This is not meant to be mean spirited, but does point out how and why I feel wronged. I waited until the game moved on past Uni's turn before I wanted to post this so it would be clear to all that this was not an effort to replay using my Turn, also to make it difficult for Tass to rule that my turn must be used, if he agreed with me.


Below are some key posts detailing the knowledge all had of what I planned to do and how I planned to do it. I summarize them here. You can also go back through the Turn 2159 and Hostilities Imminent Threads to see them if you need to see them there.

Hong Hu's post in Turn2159

08-03-2004 23:51 | profile | pm | search | buddy edit | quote link | report | ip

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Looks like that we are at a point of no return then.

I suggest you clear whatever bases you can, but please do not take sunshine coast. We have agreed that the Drones should have that base.

Use the chopper to take longreach, and drop all the probes and garrisons into it. Let's hope all goes well.

Mead's post logging off in Hostilities Imminent

08-03-2004 23:51 | profile | mail | pm | search | buddy edit | quote link | report | ip

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quote:Originally posted by HongHu Frankychan is correct. You simply attack and declare vendetta. Sorry I was replying to your ealier post regarding the speech without realizing there are more posts below. I have edited the post btw.


Thanks.

Into the Breach we go.


I'll log off now.

I'll do the turn then log back on and post the results in Turn 2159 once I'm done.

Mead

Arnelos response in Hostilities Imminent indicating he supports the Turn, before it was played.

08-03-2004 23:52 | profile | pm | search | buddy | icq | aim edit | quote link | report | ip

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quote:Originally posted by Mead Into the Breach we go.

I saw Hong Hu's post in Turn2159 instructing me not to take Sunshine and then logged off and played the turn. I did not take Sunshine. It was never my intent, I just wanted to kill the Uni Probe there.

I logged back on at about 09-03-2004 01:28 and entered Turn 2159 and found Hong Hu posted

09-03-2004 00:08 | profile | pm | search | buddy edit | quote link | report | ip

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Mead!! Please don't start playing yet!

and Hong Hu also posted

09-03-2004 00:09 | profile | pm | search | buddy edit | quote link | report | ip

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I have checked the turn. We don't have any probe team in position. We cannot take and hold longreach! We cannot risk putting a lot of our forces in a base without one probe! Disband that penetrator and do not start strike until the next turn! Please stop!!!

I had already logged off the Internet and was then playing the Turn when Hong Hu posted those messages.
It looked like a lot of discussion was going on while I was off-line playing the Turn.

It went downhill from there. Rubin resigned from the CMC. Just about everyone else who did not tell me not to play the turn beforehand, was now questioning whether it should have been played the way it should have been.


Jamski posted

09-03-2004 04:29 | profile | pm | search | buddy edit | quote link | report | ip

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Is it too late for somone else to play the turn?

I mean, we failed in the main objective, to get ConShelf, and we attacked the Uni one turn early.

-Jam

This would have been the worst reason, from a fairness point of view to the game and other factions, for someone else playing the turn.

Prior to playing the turn I made it clear to everyone what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it.

Of the six Hive members on-line four agreed to the attack (Mead, Arnelos, Frankychan, and Hong Hu), one was against Rubin, one was not saying anything (Jamski). Of the four agreeing to the attack, three had concerns about the turn but were enthusiastic about doing it (Mead, Arnelos, Frankychan), one (Hong Hu) was very apprehensive but agreed to the attack and gave limiting instructions (attack, but don't invade, Sunshine).

Rubin, a very experienced SMAC/X player was very new to the game here. He made several suggestions that indicated he was not fully aware of our dispositions. He instructed that we do not attack Conshelf57 until we go a probe ship in range (to sabotage production), when it was clear that there was no possibility of getting one built and in place for at least 3 turns. Peace cannot wait that long. He also gave instruction to dispatch a new aircraft to recon the island we found the CyCon CP, when I knew that our returning needlejet would do the job for us. Rubin, although very experienced at SMAC/X was very new to this game. I listened to his posts realized but took the responsibility of playing the turn to the best of my ability, exercising my best judgment, to do the best for the Hive. As I stated in my early post

08-03-2004 21:07 | profile | mail | pm | search | buddy edit | quote link | report | ip

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I will post what I intend to do this turn in THIS THREAD, over the next 20-30 minutes.

IF THERE IS NOT COMPLETE OPPOSITION OR ORDERS FROM VOLTAIRE TO NOT DO IT I WILL PLAN IT AS INDICATE HERE.

I will take into considerations and may modify my plan of action based upon inputs from other players.


I WILL, HOWEVER, PLAY AND POST THE TURN WITHIN TWO HOURS.

It will be on my shoulders, the success or failure of the Hive this turn, and baring my being relieved of duties I will make the final call and post I judge best.

Mead

I did play the Turn. I did not launch the Uni attack without the knowledge, acceptance, and assistance of a majority of the other Hive members.

Mead

[Arnelos]

To be honest, I must admit that when you said "going into the breach", I didn't think you meant attacking the University, but just attacking those Data Angel units, clearing conshelf57, and whacking that CyCon colony pod.

It's entirely my mistake for not fully realizing what you intended, I think.

Interestingly, this is precisely the problem Kody brought up to me when I chatted with him about a week or so ago... it seems a common mistake that people make here that we don't quite read everything that someone posts (just skimming), miss something rather imporant, and then start operating based upon that assumption.

So sorry 'bout that. I should have caught that going after all of those uni bases was your original intent and spoken up sooner.