All purpose Panzer General thread

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Doc
I have a question for the wargame fans here.

What's the attraction in SP wargaming? I often find that intricate TBS games are pants in SP even if they are great games, since the AI is always weak. Most wargames that I have seen are more intricate than a general TBS title, so surely this must be a factor?

I play SP wargames because it won't insult me after I lose Besides, I don't have anybody to play boardgames with here.

As to AI, generally the computer player(s) in wargames are quite competent, depending on how good the programmers are. The scope of a wargame tend to me more limited, and the goals are clearly defined. It's more like chess than Go, IOW.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by ErikM
Try Steve Brown's British Western Desert and Italy campaign. It is available here. ...

Thanks for the link ErikM, I didn't knew this site myself...

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
As to AI, generally the computer player(s) in wargames are quite competent, depending on how good the programmers are. The scope of a wargame tend to me more limited, and the goals are clearly defined. It's more like chess than Go, IOW.

I guess that's the key really..........TBS games like Civ are much broader and hence it's harder to make good AI. Maybe I'll check out a PG game at some point, but at the moment I have tonnes of games to play so it wont be for a while.

[lord of the mark]

Games you havent installed, or games youve played but have gameplay left?

[DrSpike]

A bit of both.

[CerberusIV]

I actually finished the Blitz campaign I did an AAR for. Went 12 BV and 3 victories for probably my best result ever.

Malta - Victory. I really can't crack this one. I think I put too many units on the map and they get in each others way towards the N end of the island.

Kishinev - BV. One group starts in the N and drives S, the other in the W and drives E. Use Stukas to weaken the T34 and KV1. The AI really can't use air units. It doesn't escort its bombers so pick them off ASAP, and it never buys more so, unless it gerts reinforcements, once you have destroyed the initial air units you can switch your fighters to ground attack to build experience.

Novgorod - BV. Hard fighting. In the S push armour across the river with a SIG in close support. It will be hit so needs replacements. Use air units to take down Soviet artillery. In the N, stand on the defensive until you take out the fighters and at least one of the heavy tanks, then push forward. I got lucky with Fallshirm this time. On the road SE from Starya Russa there are two VH's. For the first one I usually hit it with a Stuka (once the Russian fighters are destroyed) and drop a fallshirm next to it. You can drop and fire so that weakens the defender to move in next time. On this occasion I destroyed the defender and took the hex easily. On the VH to the SE the same trick worked again. Strange because it is a supply hex and the AI didn't requisition a unit to defend it. It usually adds extra units here anyway but must not have had enough prestige. Reveived a PIIIJ prototype.

Volokolamsk - BV. This one simply went well. Good weather and swift progress to seize the objectives.

Klin - victory. Another one I haven't cracked. Too many objectives, not enough time. I tend to have problems with the scenarios that involve attacking on more than two axes.

I was a little surprised to discover that I was doing too well to be allowed Windsor 43 and was sent straight to Savannah. Useful as it avoids the upgrade dilemma.

[CerberusIV]

Upgrading is a key to the Blitz campaign. There is a limited range of options from Madrid to Klin. For this period most units either don't upgrade or only upgrade once. Once you have upgraded the Madrid units your infantry, artillery and recon don't upgrade during this period. SP AT means buying StugIIIB and sticking with it. SP AD means Sdkfz 6/2 upgrading to Sdkfz 7/1. Tac bombers means JU87B upgrading to D and a Me110E. Fighters means Me109E upgrading to FW 190a. The only big upgrade decision is tanks. I run 4 Pz III's and a single IVD (to be historically accurate). Many people seem to just go with the IVD. If you use Pz III start with the E and upgrade to the H, skip the G version as it isn't worth it.

After Klin there is a dilemma. You need to upgrade some of your armour for Windsor 43 but will have to upgrade again for Savannah. For Savannah Panther G's are necessary but that means doing Windsor 43 with your old tanks or probably not having enough prestige to upgrade twice. Pz IV's , any mark, just won't survive at Savannah. I usually just upgrade the Pz IVD to a Tiger and one of the SP AT's. Also upgrade the Me 110E to a FW 190G.

I save prestige for a big final upgrade at Savannah. It means sacrificing any chance of a BV at Windsor 43 but means you have the units for the last 2 scenarios.

In my last campaign I skipped Windsor and went to Savannah with 5700 prestige in the bank. I don't bother with the FW 190D. PZ III's to Panther G. Pz IVD to King Tiger. Stug IIIB's to Jagdpanther. Recon from Ps231 to 234/2. I had enough left to upgrade 2 Fh18's to K17's and a JU87D to a HS 129 with about 1000 prestige left for replacements.

[CerberusIV]

Savannah - BV. I did restart twice after losing some good units in the first couple of turns. On the northern landing it is best to put your armour ashore first and give air cover with fighters (warning - inexperienced fighter units will be targeted and destroyed by the AI). The M26's will probably destroy one of your units. However, if you leave a transport where they can skirt north of your units and fire at it from 2 hexes they will target it and ignore your tanks. This usually doesn't do much damage to the unit in a transport and saves your armour. In the S I move to the far south rather than fight ashore in the centre. This is OK unless the AI puts units on the shore and you get caught in their ZOC's. If this happens pull the transports back until the AI moves.

N group drives NW to the VH and the airfield then back SE to the 2 other VH's and into Savannah, easier than trying to fight across the river, and the central airfield. S group, when it eventually gets ashore, drives inland to the nearby VH then splits for the SW airfield and to help in the centre. Despite the BV this was tough. I lost an artillery and my least experienced fighter. I did get a Jagdtiger prototype.

Oak Ridge - BV. One group drives east then north. The other north. If you get the atomic facility early you need to guard it as the US paras still appear. Ignore the Polish paras and minor objectives. Not too hard once you destroy the US heavy tanks! I lost an experienced Panther G and the Me163 I requisitioned to replace the fighter destroyed at Savannah. Targeting the US bombers early is vital, otherwise they will cripple key ground units. AD helps but has limited effect. Once the 3 bombers are gone wear the US fighters down with multiple attacks (use the HS 162 to attack first and don't be afraid to get replacements for it).

And that's all there is to it.

[CerberusIV]

Final thoughts on the PG 2 Blitzkrieg campaign.

I have mentioned the upgrade decisions and the AI's weakness in using air units. Using units with leaders appropriately is important, as is not expecting too much from them at times! I don't use overstrength as I prefer to save prestige for upgrades and new units. If you have to overstrength then tac bombers and your best tanks are the key units to boost.

Prototypes average about 1 for every 2 brilliant victories. Air units are best but a sIG 1B after Madrid can be a real help.

Verdict - I still enjoy PG2 even after several years. Good replay value.

[VetLegion]

Reading this thread got me to fire up PG2 again too . Though I did it last week and I won't write as detailed AAR as CerberusIV did as I already erased the game and don't recall all the details.

I also played the Blitzkrieg campaign but instead going for the brilliant victories, this time I went for the standard or tactical, with the important objective of destroying all enemy units in every scenario.

I thought this should be interesting and I could also finally test whether it is generally better to go for brilliant victories with the added prestige, or go for lesser victories which give less prestige and fewer (I got one, a fighter) prototype units but allow me to mop up all the flags and build up expirience of my units.

Verdict: It is easier and pays off more to go the route of lesser victories.

By the time I got to Savannah I had 5 King Tiger tanks with commanders, all overstrengthened to 15. I also had 4 or 5 fighters, 2 or 3 with commanders. I also had 3 or 4 extremely expirienced bombers I was dragging with me since Spain but only one had a commander. Nonetheless, all of theme, overstrengthened, are a thing of beauty, reducing enemy units by 5-6 per attack easily. My usual setup of 4 artillery was expanded since I had too much prestige so I ended up with 6 or maybe more arty, one with the commander that gives it extra range, great stuff.

Not to bore you with more of what I had I will just say that I constantly overstrengthened all of my units and had every type of unit I play with in sufficient quantity, plus saved enough money for the expensive upgrade to King Tigers.

Everyone has different style of play, very interesting use of paratroopers there Cerberus, I never used them.

To me the most difficult scenarios are Windsor and Savannah, and you guessed it why - strong enemy airforce.

I will normally not reload for losing a non commander unit, but it is different with planes, I won't allow myself to lose fighters or bombers. Which means for me that I always have to reload Windsor a couple times because of very strong British fighter aircraft, I think there may be 5 or 6 of them and they are a real pain in the ass. For this scenario specifically I buy Sdkfz whichever number. I buy three or four of them and try to position my aircraft over them but I admit, it is not my skill that usually beats the British here, it is luck and reloading

Ground defenses were no trouble at all this time, with my overstrengthened Tigers making mincemeat of everything that crossed their path.


Savannah is a problematic scenario for the same reason. There are enough airplanes there to kill one of my own which ever way I position them, so in this scenario I wait with my airplanes untill the enemy shows his after which I go at them and hope for the best. Ground forces I only land in one place, the central position, where the enmy is strong and will destroy one tank but by then I don't care, it is the end of the game

[VetLegion]

One more thing. About the custom made campaigns, are they difficult to install?

Last time I wanted to do it you had to download a couple of different files which I did but something got messed up because these files overwrite the original files, so I had no luck.

If anyone can recommend a good campaign that is also easy to install without problems I would appreciate it

[ErikM]

It is not difficult, it requires a bit of time to install evreything. There are detailed installation instructions on the site I posted above.

You need to mod several things before using custom campaigns/scenarios.

First, most user-made campaigns use different equipment file as the default one has some serious playbalance issues. Equipment database consists of two parts: icons and a database file that contains unit stats.

First, you need all the new icons. You need to download a program called datup (or something like that). Run it and it will upgrade your database with all user-made icons.

Same procedure for sounds (run a program called soundup or something like that).

These two steps need only be done once - they won't screw up your installation or anything, just add more stuff to it.

Third, you need an equipment file that contains unit stats. There are several options available. A campaign that you want to install will indicate which equipment file you will need. Download it in your PG2 directory (after backing it up first).

A campaign may need some user-made maps. PG2 maps are hand-painted and have two parts: a map description (small file) and a picture of the map, which is basically something like jpeg. Map description files can be downloaded in a single file. Install it just once and it will contain data on all user-made maps (as well as SSI ones). Again, it won't mess up anything.

Hand-painted maps are rather large downloads, so you need to download them separately -check from campaign description which ones you need.

And finally you need a campaign itself, which is a bunch of files that go into your PG2/Scenarios directory.

It is not difficult. You just have to make sure that you haven't forgotten some of these steps.

Steve Brown's site cited above has all the installation instructions in a much more detail.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Final thoughts on the PG 2 Blitzkrieg campaign.

I have mentioned the upgrade decisions and the AI's weakness in using air units. Using units with leaders appropriately is important, as is not expecting too much from them at times! I don't use overstrength as I prefer to save prestige for upgrades and new units. If you have to overstrength then tac bombers and your best tanks are the key units to boost.

Prototypes average about 1 for every 2 brilliant victories. Air units are best but a sIG 1B after Madrid can be a real help.

Verdict - I still enjoy PG2 even after several years. Good replay value.

cerb, thanks for your AAR, I intend to use it.

This game is richer than i expected. Im not sure ive even reached the point where i can forumalate good questions - im still proceeding through the Blitz campagn with Prestige adjusted to make it easier, and im struggling to victory at Novgorod. The need to strategize the core units, as well as to deal strategically with each map, and of course to handle tactics correctly, makes the game more challenging to learn than i first expected.

[VetLegion]

Yes, Panzer General II is a true gem of gaming

ErikM, thanks for the explanation!

[lord of the mark]

Well, I lost Novgorodm though just barely. Rather than try the Blitz campaign yet again, i started the American campaign, this time with only a small prestige cheat. Won tactical victory at Salerno, now on to St. Lo. Im starting to get the hang of this.

[Garth Vader]

Novogorod was tough the first time. I like going heavy into Artillery so for that I usually have 6 Arty and 4 bombers. I think you have the 5 range arty by then.

I also usually have 1 bridge infantry.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Garth Vader
Novogorod was tough the first time. I like going heavy into Artillery so for that I usually have 6 Arty and 4 bombers. I think you have the 5 range arty by then.

I also usually have 1 bridge infantry.

I havent used bridge infantry, though youre right, Novgorod looks like a scen where it would make a big difference.

[CerberusIV]

Novgorod is tough. Be careful with bridge engineers as they are vulnerable to artillery in river hexes and the Soviets have a lot of artillery in this scenario. I find it to be a question of absorbing the initial Soviet attacks then grinding forward and eliminating the artillery. You should then reach a point where you can push forward in the north and mop up in the south. Good tac bombers to destroy the Russian tanks and wear down their artillery are essential, as is reasonable weather!

[lord of the mark]

Ive finished St. Lo, and won a victory. On to Caen. (were there really US forces at Caen?)

[lord of the mark]

well i won a BV at Caen. seemed easier than St. Lo.

[Tamerlin]

I am rediscovering the pleasures of Panzer General 1 and Allied General, two simple and yet entertaining games. These two games have less depht than Panzer General 2 but they are nonethless interesting.

[ErikM]

Tamerlin, how did you get PG1 to work? I have Windows ME and PG technically starts but gives me some DOS exception and a blue screen of death every time after 4-5 min of play.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by ErikM
Tamerlin, how did you get PG1 to work? I have Windows ME and PG technically starts but gives me some DOS exception and a blue screen of death every time after 4-5 min of play.

You must have the DOS version of the game. I had some problems with DOS games like Steel Panthers when I was under Win98SE. I had to create a shortcut of the executable and right click on it, select Properties and change the values of the various memories used under DOS. Setting them to maximum could solve your problem.

But IMO it would be easier to download the Win95 version that can be found at the Home of the Lower Canines along with the manual.

For those that are interested, Allied General can be downloaded here:

http://www.ad-pecjak.si/Pg/default.htm

[BeBro]

Originally posted by ErikM
Tamerlin, how did you get PG1 to work? I have Windows ME and PG technically starts but gives me some DOS exception and a blue screen of death every time after 4-5 min of play.

Just dl-ed the Win version of PG1 as abandonware

Works fine on my Win2k/SP4, only you have to switch your Win display to 256 colors befoire running the game. Same with the Allied Gerneral (win) version they have there.

I'm quite surprised by PG1, never played the first version before (as said only Allied Genral and PGII). I think it is easier than the following versions. Units seem to get experience faster (could be wrong, though). However, still great to play.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by BeBro


Just dl-ed the Win version of PG1 as abandonware from

(Edited)

Works fine on my Win2k/SP4, only you have to switch your Win display to 256 colors befoire running the game. Same with the Allied Gerneral (win) version they have there.

I'm quite surprised by PG1, never played the first version before (as said only Allied Genral and PGII). I think it is easier than the following versions. Units seem to get experience faster (could be wrong, though). However, still great to play.

no links to them, please - keep th thread alive

[BeBro]

Oops sorry - but I thought abandonware is ok. However, edited out the link in my previous post.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by BeBro
Works fine on my Win2k/SP4, only you have to switch your Win display to 256 colors befoire running the game. Same with the Allied Gerneral (win) version they have there.

The other link I have given for Allied General is interesting for WinXP users like me as the website is including a file named Wing32.dll without which the game does not run.

Most of the problems with older games under Win2K and WinXP like Panzer General 1 or Allied General are solved through the Windows Compatibility Utility, right click on the executable and select Windows95 compatibility.

As far as Panzer General II and WinXP are concerned, the CD-ROM folder with the maps must be copied on your Hard Disk Drive in the main folder of the game.

[EDIT]I forgot to mention that once you have copied the maps on your HDD, right click on the maps folder, select Properties and uncheck the "read only" option.[/EDIT]

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by BeBro
Oops sorry - but I thought abandonware is ok. However, edited out the link in my previous post.

To review - the owners of 'poly have specifically banned that site. It includes both games where the publisher has explicity placed the game in the public domain, and those where it has not. In the latter case the owners of that site say they are justified, as they have offered to take any game down if the publisher objects. The publishers say that it is too burdensome to search for such sites, and contact them, and that the burden should be on the site to get explicit permission - silence does not imply consent. This is obviously problematic for games whose publishers are no longer in business. Those games BTW are still not public domain, as creditors of the bankrupt firms may yet emerge and claim the rights.

As for individuals, let your conscience be your guide, but its understandable that the owners here would forbid links.

[ErikM]

Thanks Tamerlin
Never knew about PG1 for Windows.
Downloading from the canines as I write this

Im many ways PG1 was da best. Every unit in PG1 serves its purpose. You can get by in the main campaign without AT guns or without air defense units, but for defensive scenarios they are essential. Infantry was crucial to take defended cities and to secure rough terrain.

In PG2 with default equipment file, on the other hand,
- infantry is useless
- AT is useless
- aircraft, while not exactly useless, have poor price/performance ratio - basically a waste of prestige.

You can do an entire blitz campaign with nothing but tanks, reckons, and SPADs and it is actually easier than if you try to build a balanced force.

Also original PG scenarios somehow seem much more memorable than PG2 ones. Novgorod is the only PG2 scenario that is a bit difficult. (Well maybe Savanna). Most PG1 scenarios are interesting as stand-alone ones as well as a part of the campaign. And they are challenging for both sides. In PG2 most maps do not really work as stand-alone scenarios (ie Novgorod can be won by Russians on the first turn). Thus, it is much less suitable for PBEM.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by ErikM
Thanks Tamerlin
Downloading from the canines as I write this

You are welcomed.

Also original PG scenarios somehow seem much more memorable than PG2 ones. Novgorod is the only PG2 scenario that is a bit difficult. (Well maybe Savanna). Most PG1 scenarios are interesting as stand-alone ones as well as a part of the campaign. And they are challenging for both sides. In PG2 most maps do not really work as stand-alone scenarios (ie Novgorod can be won by Russians on the first turn). Thus, it is much less suitable for PBEM.

I must admit that the main problem I have with PG2 is the screen resolution, you have big units and big hexes but the part of the map you see is rather reduced.

With PG1 and Allied General, the screen resolution is by default the screen resolution you are using under WinXP, so if you are in 1024x768 you will have the same resolution under PG1 and AG, the units are smaller but the portion of the map displayed is greater. This is why I am playing the WWII scenarios with People's General instead of PG2 (and the aerial mission concept of PeG is far better IMO).

For those who would not already know it, try this gem of a site:

http://www.peachmountain.com/5star/