Mead's Banishment From the Hive

[Mead]

Well, it looks like the proposal to post the turn I played failed.

What turn will be played by who? How?

I propose, of course, that we play a turn just like the one I did.

However if modifications are sought then

1. If we are concerned that the Drones cannot take Sunshine but still want to take Longreach ? Launch the attack on Longreach just like I did. Make sure you scout all the fungus around it with the Needlejet and Choppers. Do not attack Sunshine, drop both infantry into Longreach send one out towards Sunshine and destroy a piece of the road between Sunshine and Longreach. The Sunshine probe will be able to capture that infantry but Longreach, all its choppers and the other drop infantry is secure from probe attack. The drop infantry that remains in Longreach (3 armor, AC bonus, base bonus) should defeat any attack by the Needlejet under construction in Gardens Point, plus it will be able to take one, perhaps two bases next turn.

2. Consider using the Needlejet near the CyCon CP on a suicide mission to empty Conshelf57 for Peace (the Googliegrad chopper can be launched afterwards if required for a second attack). [Will we face the same problem with Pop drop that we faced with Sunshine?] There are sufficient air assets up north to repel the Data Angel invasion near New Moscow without the use of this Needlejet.

3. Use the new Needlejet out of Rokossovygrad to kill the CyCon CP.

I am almost certain that everyone will agree to 2 and 3.

We are going to go into Vendetta with CyCon no matter what.

I suggest that we do all three.

I will withdraw from the Hive forum. It will be clear to all ACDGers that I am no longer a member of the Hive forum.

The Hive will be able to say that the turn was delayed and the turn turned out the way it did because of Mead.

The Hive will further be able to say that as a result of the way Mead played the turn he is no longer a member of the Hive.

Let them draw their own conclusions.

The Hive will be able to that it is very sorry for how things turned out but that the matter is an internal matter and appropriate actions have been taken as a result. The Hive will be able to add that it is dreadful that the CyCon CP was killed and that Uni was invaded, but there is nothing that can be done about it; just don?t add ?because it is better for the Hive that the CyCon CP and Uni unit are dead.?


This way Hive will be able to keep the gains, but pacify CyCon into not attacking. (Even if you just go with 2 and 3)

Do not elaborate the story. Just say the above and answer any inquiries with ?It is an internal Hive matter that has been dealt with.? Although it might be fun and very tempting to elaborate if you elaborate inconsistencies will emerge in the statements.



Keep this plan close hold. Don?t share this plan with Buster. Kody, Tassadar, and Googlie please don?t leak this to the other factions.



I can always try to join the Hive again later. Just consider it a temporary absence to deceive CyCon.

Mead

[Arnelos]

I like the way you think, Comrade Mead.

If you're willing to go through with this, it carries some significant promise... we need not elaborate what the reasons were for your departure and we need not lie. We need to remain relatively silent and allow CyCon to draw their own conclusions. They will undoubtedly do so.

In terms of the CP, we can state that it was (as it did) give our team the jitters and that it was killed for that reason.

[Arnelos]

Oh, and #2 and #3 have my support, yes. As for #1, if we could hear pro/con arguments that might help... I do not sufficiently trust my knowledge of this game to make a decision without hearing out both sides.

One piece of evidence that might help either side is to consult the Drones concerning #1 and ask which way they would prefer, but that may not be possible under the time constraints.

[Jamski]

As long as it isn't you REALLY leaving the Hive,I think this is a fantastically evil plan and I love it

-Jam

[Mead]

Originally posted by Arnelos
Oh, and #2 and #3 have my support, yes. As for #1, if we could hear pro/con arguments that might help... I do not sufficiently trust my knowledge of this game to make a decision without hearing out both sides.

One piece of evidence that might help either side is to consult the Drones concerning #1 and ask which way they would prefer, but that may not be possible under the time constraints.

Could someone (Hong Hu, Voltaire?) PM Buster and ask him how he would have felt if Mead had taken Longreach but not attacked Sunshine and reduced its pop to 1. Please PM Buster, not post in the Drone embassy. Based upon recent experience I do not want to rush the people into a decision.

If you're willing to go through with this, it carries some significant promise... we need not elaborate what the reasons were for your departure and we need not lie. We need to remain relatively silent and allow CyCon to draw their own conclusions. They will undoubtedly do so.

I have no problem with going through with this. All, I, have to do is leave the Hive forum, be quiet, and watch what happens in the open ACDG forum.

It will be up to the other established well known members of the Hive (Hong Hu, Voltaire, Jamski, Octavian, etc.) to post the storyline I wrote above, and not elaborate. Plus it will up to all the members of the Hive to not elaborate (this may be difficult because it is so tempting to play CyCon along), but to say nothing more, even when pressed for an answer in the open forums or in PMs.


Mead

[Snowflake]

No, I don't like that. I agree to 2 and 3 but not 1. It is not agreed before the turn was played.

Tass already announced that he ruled that we will not be using your turn so we can not blame the vendetta to you. And I don't want you to leave the team, even if it is temporarily and not real.

I've written a draft PM to explain the killing of Vendetta.

The colony pod your captured is determined to be affected by an unknown planet virus that may be deadly and highly contagious. The Hive coastal guard had to take it out because it posed great potential threat to the Hive's security. I believe a peace treaty is being offered back to you.

We only need to offer a peace treaty in the end. It will be their call whether to accept it or not. We don't need to pretend long. We'll be able to announce our true vendetta after the CC turn. In fact we don't even need to offer the peace treaty. I've gone ahead and done the turn since it seems like CC's starting to get mad at our not playing.

I will post the save before end turn in the 2159 turn thread.

[Arnelos]

HongHu's proposal may work... and yet it may not.

btw, we don't have to blame the vendetta on Mead even if he leaves temporarily. CyCon can come to their own conclusions about whatever Mead might have done... allow their imaginations to wander.

That said, if we go with HongHu's plan, that may be wholly unecessary.

[Snowflake]

Ok, I still don't like that Mead has to leave but I do not object you all feel it is going to help. I will not offer them a treaty. I will only offer them that bogus explanation about CP to buy us some time till we are able to post the war declaration. They'll of course panic when they see the vendatta but there is not much for them to do.

[Snowflake]

But Mead is our turn player. How can he leave?

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by HongHu
But Mead is our turn player. How can he leave?

This is an exceptional point. Given that there is no longer a compelling reason for Mead to leave (since we aren't using that particular deception plan), then him staying makes all the sense in the world. Afterall, he's going to continue playing turns in the future, I believe, right?

Besides, I have an incling about what the CyCon may conclude based upon their known information... here's what they know or think they know:

* Mead is the turn-player
* There was some dispute between Mead and HongHu
* Tassadar ruled in favor of HongHu
* Their CP was attacked and they can presume that it was HongHu who decided to attack it (given the message from HongHu *and* that Tassadar decided in her favor)

Now, what do you think they will conclude? They figure that whatever it was that Mead did, it was cancelled by Tassadar and he decided in HongHu's favor.

There are two realms of possibility here... either they figure Mead did MORE than HongHu or they figure that Mead did LESS (such as not attacking the CP!).

On the chance that they may believe the latter (that Mead was against even attacking the CP), there's no question but that Mead stays on the team. Under that case, we want them to believe that we're still embroiled in an internal conflict and perhaps even that Mead may refrain from making hostile actions agianst the Hive in the future.

If it's the other, we could still benefit from the perception that the Hive is embroiled in a massive internal conflict. Because the Hive would be in such an internal conflict, the chances that CyCon will at least be tempted to pause are far greater. They may pause simply because they want to see how such a conflict turns out before they commit themselves to armageddon with us, a fight which has to make them worry. It's even possible that they'll just write off the loss of the CP in an attempt to at least stall us from continuing a war against them until they can more properly prepare for one.

Again, the less said by us the better. Whatever web of imaginations they're weaving, we don't want to disturb it with contradictory evidence. We also don't want to disturb it by making it seem too obvious. One of the telltale signs of a poorly run disinformation campaign is that there's just too much information being thrown at you. The better way to do it is to just leave subtle or very few clues and let them work from there. Oddly enough, people are more likely to believe something when there are just a few shreds of evidence and they think they've "figured it out" than when they are being bombarded with evidence and they have to start getting suspicious.

We want to do just enough to give the impression that things are rather heated in here, but little more.

Thankfully, this need not even be maintained for more than a single round of the turn.

As for policy... we'd be fine if CyCon offered us a treaty. If they do, we just reject the offer when it comes around to our turn and move with the next stage of the campaign.

[Snowflake]

Yes, I agree 100%. Everyone should try to refrain from saying too much everywhere and anywhere.

[Snowflake]

Well it seems the matters have not died down. (See public forum) I believe the CCs have seen the vendetta and the killing of the CP and believed that Mead's turn might be more favorable for them.

I almost feel bad now that I have gone through all these just to ensure that PUT can be eradicated in a couple turns. I'm feeling like if we simply carried out the plan then I can face them and say too bad you are defeated. But now it's like I went for something extra to defeat them. Perhaps we should really give them whatever chances they deserve from us not carrying out the plan.

I think I've become the control freak that I did not want to become now. I will try to remember not to impose my own thinking on other people again.

[t_ras]

i'm just reading it first time.
since i dont have too much time i couldnt see the turns.
i would just like to know that whatever we decided at the beginning is being carried on and we're not using any knowledge we shouldn't be using from meads turn.
i see t as a very imprtant thing to keep our integrity...

[Snowflake]

We have not used any knowledge from Mead's turn. We didn't need any knowledge from his turn. But my view is if we go with Mead's turn then PUT might get a chance to live longer and CPU get a chance to get MMI while the current turn will enable us to eradicate PUT before they get MMI, although I might be mistaken. If that is the case then it will be true that we have used the current turn and got a better result.

[Arnelos]

I'm going to try something... ideally we want to be "stuck" with HongHu's turn, but we want to leave the door open to the idea that the team is ammenable to changing policy in retrospect (even if we can't change our turn). In other words, we encourage the death of the CP to be written off. It died, we're in a vendetta with CyCon, that doesn't HAVE to be the permanent policy of the team.

[Snowflake]

I think we've done a fairly good job of confusing the enemies. Now I will post a post in the public forum saying that the Hive will not try explain any more. And we will be prepared to abide the god's ruling again. Imagine if tass rules that Mead's turn is to be used and they saw the invasion of uni, what surprise will they found. If it is not for buster's being severely hampered, I would almost say that the laugh alone will be worth of letting them get their way.

[Snowflake]

I have a new idea. Should we suggest they simply play this turn, and after the uni and CC turns are done we will provide them with Mead's turn. If they feel like they can take Mead's turn and replay their turns. I suspect that they will say they don't want to take Mead's turn. However this is kind of tricky so I'm not sure about this idea at all.

[Arnelos]

oops... didn't realize you wanted us to stop posting entirely. Bah, it's alright. At this point, the issue is between CyCon and the mods. I have a funny feeling that CyCon may try their hardest to convince the gods to cause use to use Mead's turn and then find that we attacked the University!

I think Tassadar and Googlie may hold out, but if they don't, CyCon is in for a rather rude surprise.

I'd rather that they not get that surprise, though...

I've thought about the possibility of basically telling them "look, what Mead did was a hell of a lot more than attack your one colony pod... he practically went to Armageddon against CPU"... I wonder if they'd immediately drop the protest, accept the turn as HongHu played it, and then ask for a peace negotiation.

Probably far too risky, though... besides, this way CyCon doesn't really KNOW which way is better for them and they have to argue on the basis of the actual FAIRNESS of the issue rather than which way is better/worse for them.

[Jamski]

It would be funny if they saw just what happened...

-Jam

[Mead]

Maniac is fishing for information in the Thread "The NON-ISSUE"

We should not respond to his efforts.

We should just say, as Hong Hu states:

Now I will post a post in the public forum saying that the Hive will not try explain any more. And we will be prepared to abide the god's ruling again.

Please note that initially I was upset that Kody posted in the open forum his comments on my teraforming. I appeciated him taking the time to download and critic my turn, but thought it was wrong of him to post his analysis in the open forum, giving information to all the other factions.

Perhaps as of result of this, Maniac thinks this whole thing is about teraforming issues. I wonder if that was Kody's intent.


Mead

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Mead
Perhaps as of result of this, Maniac thinks this whole thing is about teraforming issues. I wonder if that was Kody's intent.

Although it's entirely possible that Maniac may be tempted to think that this is about terraforming issues (as he suggests), I seriously doubt it. It's far more likely that Maniac figures the only pertinent difference between the saves is whether or not we killed the CP. He's lobbying so hardly for us to play with Mead's save because he probably believes their CP is still alive in that one.

As for Kody, I'm reasonably sure he just wanted to make sure that we got those terraforming issues correct, but knew that if he posted them in here rather than in the public forum, Tassadar would have immediately killed the thread and scolded Kody. By posting it publicly, we paid the price of CyCon (and everyone else, actually) seeing some of our dirty laundry in terms of some terraforming mistakes, but at least the advice was received. Of course, Tassadar still got pissed.

In my opinion, Maniac is merely using the "potential terraforming mistakes" as an issue as an attempt to, in his belief, get CyCon's colony pod back. I perceive that the important part to him is the colony pod and the vendetta.

As for whether Kody meant to throw CyCon off of our scent with the terraforming post, I doubt it. The post was, I think, genuinely meant to be helpful on terraforming issues. At the point Kody posted it, it was still assumed that we were going to send Mead's save.

[Arnelos]

Oh, and HongHu:

Some CyCon members in #Apolyton asked me who they're supposed to contact about Hive diplomacy and I told them to PM you. They seemed particularly interested in whether the Hive would react well or poorly to "demands" in return for killing their Colony Pod. I just played very coy, said that Tassadar's ruling prevented from really saying much, and that they should PM you.

As for my personal opinion... if CyCon makes demands, just play along. Tell them that you'll have the team vote on them. Whatever it takes... JUST STALL FOR TIME. If negotiations are still in progress or our team is still "voting" on any CyCon demands by the time that the save reaches the Drones, we'll be home free and there will no longer be any need for the pretense.

[Mead]

[WARNING, WARNING, WARNING, MEAD HAS RECENTLY RETURNED FROM A PARTY WHERE MEAD, MERLOT, AND SCOTCH ETC. (OK, there was more offered but there is only so much one man can accept, my that Jamison Scotch was tasty (Jamski, I KNOW, you would have appreciated it)) WAS SERVED IN COPIOUS QUANTITIES, Yes, Mead graciously accepted, of course, the hospitality of the hosts. Yeah, He drank - a lot - his judgement may be impaired, a little, OK , A lot, Hic']

Arnelos wrote:

Although it's entirely possible that Maniac may be tempted to think that this is about terraforming issues (as he suggests), I seriously doubt it. It's far more likely that Maniac figures the only pertinent difference between the saves is whether or not we killed the CP. He's lobbying so hardly for us to play with Mead's save because he probably believes their CP is still alive in that one.

***
In my opinion, Maniac is merely using the "potential terraforming mistakes" as an issue as an attempt to, in his belief, get CyCon's colony pod back. I perceive that the important part to him is the colony pod and the vendetta.

As for whether Kody meant to throw CyCon off of our scent with the terraforming post, I doubt it. The post was, I think, genuinely meant to be helpful on terraforming issues. At the point Kody posted it, it was still assumed that we were going to send Mead's save.

OK, assuming (which is a big and unsubstantiated assumption) I have more important things to with my life than to respond to everything CyCon may think my turn may may have been actually.

But, assuming my life is so empty, and devoid of any real meaning that I must respond, I suggest the following line of miscommunication:

Mead is the leading Non-Violent 'Dove' of the Hive community. The mere thought of violence or conflict sickens him.

Mead is shocked and beside himself that the Hive would do something so horrible, offensive, and unthinkable as launch an offensive assault on the undefended CyCon CP.

Mead is completly opposed to violence unless in actual self-defense and he thought the CP issue was one that involved only Peace and CyCon, but did not concern the Hive .

Imply that although some in the Hive may feel similar to Mead, it is not the overall Will of the Hive to be so peaceful as Mead is, that is why Mead's turn was not followed.

I'll post any PM's that I receive. I am almost enjoying, OK, I admit it, I am hoping that CyCon does fall for it.


Mead

PS

I've got to get get a Real Life. Whoops. I guess I do have one and should spend more time with it.


[WARNING, WARNING, WARNING, MEAD HAS ATTENDED A PARTY WHERE MEAD, MERLOT, AND SCOTCH ETC. WAS SERVED IN COPIOUS QUANTITIES (for those so worried, he did have a another who drove him home) SHORTLY TO HIS RESPONDING TO THIS POST

[Mead]

I just posted this in Rec Commons:

I just put it here so that:

1. You all are reassured that I still have some basic knowledge of spelling and verb conjugation;
2. You have have some understanding that although I have some drunk a little bit of alcohol that I still have some ability to post messages coherently; and

3. I hope this may help CyCon to think they can reply to me.

Drouge

Were all friends here, right,

so Despite all that has, or might have occired elsewjeher

Could you pour me a pint o two,more please.

Many thnks my ghood man.

Me fiends are whaty I thiughwa me friends

Meae


PS Its ben as tough few days. I guess allof us nned soome help som4tines.

My intent is to play to mislead CyCon.

OK, I'll be quiet and stop for now.


Mead

[Arnelos]

Actually... if Maniac ALREADY believes that Mead is the dove, I'd rather we just kept our mouths shut rather than disabuse him of the idea.

The less said, the better.

[Mead]

Originally posted by Arnelos
Actually... if Maniac ALREADY believes that Mead is the dove, I'd rather we just kept our mouths shut rather than disabuse him of the idea.

The less said, the better.

OK

[Jamski]

Heh.

We are so un-evil

-Jam

[Kody]

I will withdraw from the Hive forum. It will be clear to all ACDGers that I am no longer a member of the Hive forum.

Hey I just want to add this. I feel that the main difference between the Hive and another faction is we used to stick up for each other. That was the thing that seemed to define the Hive from other factions I observed earlier in the game. Also when you start laying blame on members then you divide the faction. So if one person makes a mistake you don't disown them, you can disagree but you stick up for them where it counts.

Tassadar caused problems earlier on, but the hive didn't turn against him. I was new back then and I was kindof amazed that even though people didn't agree with him they refused to disown him.

Jamski caused problems, but the hive stuck with him until he decided he wanted to leave by himself.

Honghu, gave away information about the drone permi-pact and I found out and disagreed, but I stuck with her decision even when there were accusations about what she was doing.

Enigma, well I thought we didn't give him enough of a chance.

Mead, I feel that you shouldn't even brought this up. The hive should not consider disowning it's members for any reason.

Imagine if tass rules that Mead's turn is to be used and they saw the invasion of uni, what surprise will they found. If it is not for buster's being severely hampered, I would almost say that the laugh alone will be worth of letting them get their way.

I was quietly laughing to myself about that at the time.

As for Kody, I'm reasonably sure he just wanted to make sure that we got those terraforming issues correct, but knew that if he posted them in here rather than in the public forum, Tassadar would have immediately killed the thread and scolded Kody. By posting it publicly, we paid the price of CyCon (and everyone else, actually) seeing some of our dirty laundry in terms of some terraforming mistakes, but at least the advice was received. Of course, Tassadar still got pissed.

.......

As for whether Kody meant to throw CyCon off of our scent with the terraforming post, I doubt it. The post was, I think, genuinely meant to be helpful on terraforming issues. At the point Kody posted it, it was still assumed that we were going to send Mead's save.

Well yeah that was my intention. Although Tassadar didn't seem pissed, he seemed more disappointed in me... *sigh*

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Kody


I feel that the main difference between the Hive and another faction is we used to stick up for each other. That was the thing that seemed to define the Hive from other factions I observed earlier in the game. Also when you start laying blame on members then you divide the faction. So if one person makes a mistake you don't disown them, you can disagree but you stick up for them where it counts.

I can't say how much more I agree with Kody on this. And I appreciate you remind me about this also. In the past I have fighted Jamski, Kody, Enigma, Mead and perhaps others quite violently. I always thought that I was being straight forward by speaking what I think, but I realize that sometimes I may have been too hush unnecessarily, especially when I am not always the one who is right. Please accept my apologize. And everybody please remind me this when I act like this again.

[GeoModder]

You're so

I just knew it, why didn't the rest believe it...