Al Qaeda calls a truce

[Az]

I never said that they just want to terrorise. I think that they have strategic goals. That doesn't mean that we have to sit down and talk.

Needs and desires? not material ones. These people left safety, security and in some cases great amount of wealth for the ideology.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
It's misconception that they are terrrorists and they whole purpose is to terrorize. They are people with ideas just like you and me. They have needs and desires. We need to sit down and talk

Their ideas, among which having my country accomodate their obscurantist desires and leave our Muslim population in the dark, is something I cannot personally tolerate. It is out of question that my Republic surrenders to their vile and medieval ideas.

[Jon Miller]

I am reminded of the Tuscan Pirates

Jon Miller

[Az]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You watch too much Dr. Phil.

[Pax]

1. The only talk show I watch is the daily show.
2. The problem in the middle east is the monster the imperial powers created. Still I would not have you surrender your republic to the "terrorists", although it's funny that your republic had no problem occupying muslim lands. Anyway it's a new day. What I'm talking about is a solution that suits both sides of the table. The only other choice is really the extermination of one side or the other.

As far as some or many of the "terrorists" leaving relatively safe and secure lifestyles to pursue a war against the western world, I would have to say that more than likely they saw the overall situation of them and people around them as being intolerable. When France and Germany went to war in the 1870's, WW1 and WW2 both sides were not exactly starving.
To assume that you just can't live in peace with people because they are different is to basically give up on people.
Consider the muslims that chose to move to Spain, the U.K., France, and even the U.S. a lot of these people could be good spokesman to their native people about the decency of the west. You can shoot holes in my argument but it's still the only option I see as viable. Provide a method for ending this madness?

Can you tell me how this War on terror will ever end if we never sit down and talk to the other side. Do you really think that you can kill every single terrorist and there won't be replacements among the families and friends of the dead terrorists who have no real knowledge of madrid , 9/11 and etc but can see first hand the effects of the western world on their homes.

[Az]

The problem in the middle east is the monster the imperial powers created. Still I would not have you surrender your republic to the "terrorists", although it's funny that your republic had no problem occupying muslim lands. Anyway it's a new day. What I'm talking about is a solution that suits both sides of the table. The only other choice is really the extermination of one side or the other.

I vote for the extermination of muslim fundies. I hoped you'd do the same.

As far as some or many of the "terrorists" leaving relatively safe and secure lifestyles to pursue a war against the western world, I would have to say that more than likely they saw the overall situation of them and people around them as being intolerable.

Yes, like women not being completely covered up, beaten, and living in harems, people doubting allah's existance. Indeed, intolerable. I truly sympathize with their goals.

When France and Germany went to war in the 1870's, WW1 and WW2 both sides were not exactly starving.

Piss poor comparison. You can ask just about anyone why.

To assume that you just can't live in peace with people because they are different is to basically give up on people.

I am proud to say that I gave up on muslim fundies.

Consider the muslims that chose to move to Spain, the U.K., France, and even the U.S. a lot of these people could be good spokesman to their native people about the decency of the west.

Most chose to move because of the material benefits, not because they love the west. Many people change when arriving to the west, and this is more true for their kids, but that doesn't mean that we must make peace with muslim fundies. Actually, it's exactly to the contrary. We can change the povs of people in the muslim world, and make them cease believing in all the wrong things they believe, and not capitulate to the fundies. The mere suggestion makes me feel uneasy.

Can you tell me how this War on terror will ever end if we never sit down and talk to the other side. Do you really think that you can kill every single terrorist and there won't be replacements among the families and friends of the dead terrorists who have no real knowledge of madrid , 9/11 and etc but can see first hand the effects of the western world on their homes.

How did the west do this with Germany, and Japan?

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
While we don't necesarrily have to take the truce at face value the only way to end this war on terrorism is to a) capitulate b) negotiate or c) kill all the muslims in the world who would fight for their way of life.

A) Capitulate to whom? B) Negotiate with whom? C) For each Muslim you'd kill, two more would take up arms against you.

But you forget option D. The main reason why the Muslim/3rd world hates the USA/West so much is because of the rich/poor divide. Al Qaeda will disappear, or turn into an insignificant band of militant loonies when we start working to make the world a better place for all of us, not just the big corporations. They're nothing without popular support. So, drop the debt, stop globalisation, ensure fair trade, force a solution to the Israel/Palestine problem etc.

[Az]

@ mercatore.

[Az]

sorry, a more serious reply. It's NOT the rich/poor divide that is what makes the muslims hate the west.

[Pax]

I really do not support the extermination of fundies(islamic, christian, or jewish).

Beating women has rarely if ever been a cause for war. I really don't care how they treat their women or non believers in their own country for that matter. Neither do western governments.

You seem to know more than I do about the justification for wars between france and germany so please explain to me why these two countries that were constantly at war now live in peace.

In giving up on muslim fundies and exterminating them you create more muslim fundies among their friends and family or is the desire to avenge a strictly christian trait? If you desire peace then how would you go about it? By killing the "fundies" but leaving the "fundies" orphaned children alone because you're not at war with the kids right? Then you are surprised when those kids hate you.

I did'nt say we should make them lose their beliefs just come to the conclusion that the Judeo-Christian world can live in peace with the muslim world.

Germany and Japan is what I'm talking about. I'll explain one and wait for you to explain the other.
From the vey beginning Japan looked at the west as a threat to their culture and way of life. They took it upon themselves to modernize rapidly so they would not be colonized and manipulated as the Arabs, Africans, and other asians were. The Japanese involvement in WW2 was a direct result of the fear Japan had of domination by europeans powers and loss of access to resources. At the end of the war they were guaranteed security and access to resources that would allow there nation to thrive and prosper.

[Pax]

Originally posted by Mercatore Uno


A) Capitulate to whom? B) Negotiate with whom? C) For each Muslim you'd kill, two more would take up arms against you.

But you forget option D. The main reason why the Muslim/3rd world hates the USA/West so much is because of the rich/poor divide. Al Qaeda will disappear, or turn into an insignificant band of militant loonies when we start working to make the world a better place for all of us, not just the big corporations. They're nothing without popular support. So, drop the debt, stop globalisation, ensure fair trade, force a solution to the Israel/Palestine problem etc.

I agree with you. As far as negotiate. That's kind of vague since we have decided that any members of AQ would be arrested. Still, we need not actually negotiate with AQ we can negotiate with the governments. The point being is to make the Arab people see that any problems they have is due to the their governments and not some outside power.

[Az]

I really do not support the extermination of fundies(islamic, christian, or jewish).

Beating women has rarely if ever been a cause for war. I really don't care how they treat their women or non believers in their own country for that matter. Neither do western governments.

That's quite a shame. THAT is the kind of attitude that caused the rise of Al-Qaeda.

You seem to know more than about the justification for wars between france and germany so please explain to me why these two countries that were constantly at war now live in peace.

Elites controlling governments wanting to grab a chunk of each other's pie. Now, with the press, and information free, and wholly different politicians ruling the countries, it's almost impossible.

In giving up on muslim fundies and exterminated them you create more muslim fundies among their friends and family or is the desire to avenge a strictly muslim trait? If you desire peace then how would you go about it? By killing the "fundies" but leaving the "fundies" orphaned children alone because you're not at war with the kids right? Then you are surprised when those kids hate you.

That's why the solution is a bigger one We must make the muslim world realize the wrongness of their ways, in particular the muslim fundies' ways. It's the only way.

The kids of the SS leaders, they don't all hate the US, right?

I did'nt say we should make them lose their beliefs just come to the conclusion that the Judeo-Christian world can live in peace with the muslim world.

Too bad you didn't say that. I'd agree with you.

From the vey beginning Japan looked at the west as a threat to their culture and way of life. They took it upon themselves to modernize rapidly so they would not be colonized and manipulated as the Arabs, Africans, and other asians were.

Stop victimizing the arabs. at that point they weren't "colonized and manipulated", esp. not by the europeans. most of the arab lands were ruled by the turks.

The Japanese involvement in WW2 was a direct result of the fear Japan had of domination by europeans powers and loss of access to resources. At the end of the war they were guaranteed security and access to resources that would allow there nation to thrive and prosper.

You don't think it has anything to do with them leaving their culture of war?

[Pax]

What directly caused the rise of AQ is the invasion of Afghanistan by a European Nation and the U.S. support of the Freedom fighters/Terrorists.

You are mistaken. Pres Bush is an elite while Hitler was not.

The only wrongness that concerns me is projected force outside ones borders. Something many countries are guilty of.

Many muslim were controlled from Europe. After the Turks fell most of their former territory was controlled Europe.

I'm sure it was the perceived threat from the west that caused the conflict with Japan.

[Az]

What directly caused the rise of AQ is the invasion of Afghanistan by a European Nation and the U.S. support of the Freedom fighters/Terrorists.

Al-Qaeda is just the biggest symptom in the rise of islamic extremism.

You are mistaken. Pres Bush is an elite while Hitler was not.

Hitler came to power as a result of WWI. it's nice that you ignored those other two wars you placed in your initial argument.

The only wrongness that concerns me is projected force outside ones borders. Something many countries are guilty of.

Many muslim were controlled from Europe. After the Turks fell most of their former territory was controlled Europe.

So? that still leaves them controlled much less time than many other territories, that are in much better shape than they are.

I'm sure it was the perceived threat from the west that caused the conflict with Japan.

Maybe the US' conflict with Japan. but you seem to forget that Japan waged an imperialist war of it's own.

[Rogan Josh]

Al-Qaeda is just the biggest symptom in the rise of islamic extremism.

I thought it was a symptom of the rise in American (and Israeli) extremism.

[Bereta_Eder]

Same thing

[Az]

You thought wrong.

[Pax]

Actually, there are very few countries that were colonized that are in good shape. That are almost none that can compete with U.S., Europe, and Japan.

What came first the chicken or the egg. I think imperialism resulted in Nationalism and Religous extremism on the part of people whose culture was under attack.

You said it was not possible for elites to control the governments in this day and age. It is and they are. You also stated that the wars between Germany and France were do to elites controlling the government. Are you saying that the same is true here?

Of Israel's internal policies that I know of their are none that I agree with. SO what? I'm not a citizen. What should and does concern me is when Israel projects power outside of it's borders to say launch and attack into a neighboring sovereign country. This disturbs me greatly. The same with AQ.

Japan had an isolationist policy most of it's existence. My impression is that a conscious decision was made to reverse that to prevent what happened in China from happening to Japan. Japan being a country poor in resources set out to secure those resources which was in direct conflict with the Western world need to have those same resources. Thus we have a conflict.

[Az]

Sadly, I cannot continue this argument today, since I have a terrible allergy. see you folks tomorrow.

[Bereta_Eder]

ok get well soon, i have a thread for you where you can explain your views.

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Azazel
@ mercatore.

Originally posted by Azazel
sorry, a more serious reply. It's NOT the rich/poor divide that is what makes the muslims hate the west.

It's certainly part of it. And the whole Israel/Palestine thing and American presence in the ME. Al Qaeda just happens to be good at rallying the Muslim world by blaming everything that's wrong with them on the US/Israel.

Al-Qaeda is just the biggest symptom in the rise of islamic extremism.

Yes, but extremism always happens in reaction to something else, a perceived threat (real or not). Islamic extremism isn't happening because Muslims are stupid or inherently more intolerant/violent, whatever. Or why do you think Islamic extremism is on the rise?

Edit: Well, paiktis' new thread seems to cover my last question nicely.

[blackice]

Actually Canada is in every peace keeping duty, Afgan and Iraq, so what european country can boost the same?

We did not agree with the war but offered support to our allies because of terrorism and they are our friends...Period.

Seems like in the past some of these countries will simply wish it away. So much for allies, they say it is not our war, they say if we give in they will not attack us, just our allies...

Your all heros, live with it...

[Pax]

It's good to have a friend like that!!!!

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'll split the difference.
Western troops out of the middle east(including my cousin and sister)
Russian troops out of Chechnya
You recognize Israel halt terrorist acts
We recognize Palestine and help build Palestinian state
You can build great muslim state in all states that vote in favor
We give you back control of your resources
You agree to sale it a reasonable rates
And I'll throw in some american cars(very popular in syria)

Az is 100% right. Al Queda says no deal... what do you do next?

He is playing fair, because that is EXACTLY what they will say. I mean, you really can't negotiate with this group, because their goals are so far reaching with no room for compromise.

[Az]

I'll reply to this in paitkis' thread, since its' the same question.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


kinda like the US not really caring about fighting terrorism, until 911, right?

Kinda like Europe not caring about fighting terrorism until Madrid, right?

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
If you are going to play, then play fair.
First of all, you don't know that there's no deal.
I knew that you were just going to say no deal.

I understand your point but your example was ridiculous and a total setup. You couldn't have expected anybody to take it seriously.

Excellent strawman capabilities though.

[Az]

Yes, but extremism always happens in reaction to something else, a perceived threat (real or not). Islamic extremism isn't happening because Muslims are stupid or inherently more intolerant/violent, whatever. Or why do you think Islamic extremism is on the rise?

Islamic extremism is on the rise because it's the only ideology available on the market since noone bothers seriously advancing another one.

It's not as if conditions worsened since the 50s, 60s and 70s in the arab world, when nationalism was the game.

[Qilue]

Originally posted by Pax Africanus
Actually, there are very few countries that were colonized that are in good shape. That are almost none that can compete with U.S., Europe, and Japan.

What came first the chicken or the egg. I think imperialism resulted in Nationalism and Religous extremism on the part of people whose culture was under attack.

You said it was not possible for elites to control the governments in this day and age. It is and they are. You also stated that the wars between Germany and France were do to elites controlling the government. Are you saying that the same is true here?

Of Israel's internal policies that I know of their are none that I agree with. SO what? I'm not a citizen. What should and does concern me is when Israel projects power outside of it's borders to say launch and attack into a neighboring sovereign country. This disturbs me greatly. The same with AQ.

Japan had an isolationist policy most of it's existence. My impression is that a conscious decision was made to reverse that to prevent what happened in China from happening to Japan. Japan being a country poor in resources set out to secure those resources which was in direct conflict with the Western world need to have those same resources. Thus we have a conflict.

Referencing the part italicized after noting flag under avatar.

Afganistan
Iraq
Grenada
Panama
Libya

Just to name a few of the known incidents of the last few decades.

[Ramo]

I vote for the extermination of muslim fundies. I hoped you'd do the same.

Not every Islamist is a terrorist. Why, exactly, should these people be exterminated (I presume you mean through violence)?