AU502: Celtic Power - Swords and Ploughshares

[ducki]

Ahh, hello there Brennus! Come! Sit! We have much to discuss!
I have decided to create a new world and I need your help. You see, I want to do a bit of an experiment, but I need someone who can report back to me; someone immortal. So I am sending you to this new creation to guide the Celts through the passage of time.
What's that? Alone? No, there will be others to overcome, as well as certain other.... obstacles you will need to deal with. Be not afraid! Seek out these other peoples and become wise in the ways of the world. Keep your people happy and they will serve you well. Use your knowledge of Agriculture to grow your lands and the yoke of Religion to keep your people content and productive.
You can overcome, but this is no fool's errand. Be vigilant and remember the Seven Pillars.

All of the links above were gleaned from the Must Read threads so you may have seen them already, but are generally worth a second look.
-------------

Enough of that silliness, on to the fun!
This world is Standard size.

Both you the player and the AI will be exploring the power of Agriculture.
You, alone, though will be reexamining the Celts as a civ and the Gallic Swordsman as a UU.
Those that have been students of AU for some time might have a sense of deja vu. There was a PtW course titled AU 206: Gallic Glory. This is NOT the same map. The Celts, in light of their new Agricultural Trait and the, now, 40-shield Gallic Swordsman, are arguably more powerful than ever.

Map tweaking was kept to a minimum, though some was needed to help specific AIs and to make certain things interesting - at least I hope it works out interesting. No coal or oil was moved in the creation of this map.

This particular AU course is available in 3 versions - Stock C3C rules, AU Mod rules, and a semi-stock version that implements the Industrial Age tech tree as described in the 1.20 Patch readme that has been distributed. Included in each zipfile are 6 SAV files, one for each difficulty from Regent to Sid, so pick whichever "flavor" and level of the game you want to play.

Stock Rules AU 502 Save Files
Semi-stock 1.20 tech tree AU 502 Save Files
AU Mod v1.04 AU 502 Save Files

More info to come, but for now, I am running late and want to get this to you guys.

Until I get all the DAR threads up, a bit more info about this game can be found in the Spoiler Thread - there is a screenshot near the top of your starting location as well as some basic game settings information.

Unsure what Apolyton University is all about? The AU History 101 thread has some great quotes at the top of the first post and the AU Mod thread has a more detailed explanation as well as information on the Mod many AU students play with.


Many thanks go out to Thoth for testing this map out for a couple thousand years, and to Dominae and Rhothaerill for guidance in creating my first map.

[ducki]

Reserved

[Rhothaerill]

Woo hoo! Game on! Thanks for setting this up Ducki. I can't wait to play it.

[Makahlua]

w00t. Been lurking and reading and looking forward to this Now I just have to decide what flavor!

[nbarclay]

Ducki, I appreciate your putting this together for us, but I'm starting to get a bit upset at your refusal to make information regarding whether this is a Continents or Pangea map available to those of us who want it. Some of us would be inclined to play rather differently depending on which type of map it is and don't like to be left guessing, and the (spoiler) (/spoiler) trick makes it possible to tell those of us who want to know without spoiling the fun for those who don't. Even if you enjoy keeping the secret, is it fair for you to interfere with other people's fun for your own enjoyment?

[vmxa1]

Not sure why it should be a secret. Players know the map settings unless they play random maps.

[Dominae]

Sheesh, just deal with it. Pretend the settings are random. Prented the true nature of the map settings is not known to ducki, and is actually in a quantum super-position of states.

It will make scouting more important, as well as the use of early defensive units (in case of Raging Barbs). Does that not make the game more interesting?

Since everyone is in the dark, everyone is on a level playing field (if that's the worry). So what if you make a mistake due to incomplete information?


Dominae

[ZargonX]

Gotta get started on this tomorrow

[Conqueror]

Tought to play this one, but i could use clarification in one point :

I tought that either in 1.20 tree or AU 1.04 the prerequisite of Electronics was removed from Motorized Transportation ? Was i wrong in this ? I tought i read something of the sort in this forum.

Either i was wrong or my tech tree bugs, as tested both AU and 1.20 tree saves and theres still arrow from Electonics to Tanks in both

[Conqueror]

Aha. I was stupid. Right-clicking the techs shows the real deal My tech tree just seems to have wrong graphics.

[alexman]

If you want the tech tree to display properly for the AU Mod, please unzip the optional tech tree graphics into your scenarios folder.

This will create (or overwrite) an AU Mod directory where AU Mod games look for overriding files. If these graphics are not installed, the default C3C tech tree background is used.

If you are using the pseudo-1.20 version, then you need to replace your Conquests\Art\Advisors\science_industrial.pcx file with the one in the zip, but make a backup of the old file.

You can do the above even if you have already started the game, and the tech tree will display properly the next time you start Conquests.

[alexman]

Ducki, it seems the AU mod files for this game do not look in the AU mod folder for the graphics after all. The mod alone works fine, so you probably imported the rules into your map instead of the map into the AU mod, so the "AU Mod" text from the Scenario Search Folders in the Scenario Properties got lost when you were generating the saves.

No big deal. You can either generate new files, after fix your biq, or you can have people replace their science_industrial.pcx file in their Conquests\Art\Advisors folder.

[ducki]

Actually, one of the things that took so long last night was regenerating the save files to have the text "AU Mod" in the Scenario Properties "Search Folders" field. And my "bug report" about the extra pixels of Motorized Transport where Radio used to be, IIRC, came from checking it with the AU Sid Save(the last one I did.)

I will double check when I get a chance, though.

Edit - in your previous post, did you mean industrial and not ancient?

Edit2 - I just fired up AU502_AUModv1o04__Sid_4000BC.sav and the Industrial tree uses the graphic listed on the AU mod page - Radio is removed, MT doesn't require Electronics. Am I missing something?
Sorry for the confusion, this is more details to manage than a 4-turn pump. Ok, maybe not, but it's still confusing.

[nbarclay]

Dominae, if I hadn't asked Ducki about the map type until the last minute and Ducki just hadn't gotten around to answering before the game was posted, I could accept your reasoning. Similarly, if I were the only one interested in the information, I could accept your reasoning.

But multiple people have asked Ducki for a piece of information that is normally available, that has traditionally been available in AU games, and that would make the game more enjoyable to us. That information could be provided to those of us who want it without forcing it onto those who do not. Ducki has refused to provide the information for reasons that, as best I can tell, add up to little or nothing more than arbitrary whim.

In my view, a matter of principle is thus involved: the principle that Apolyton University should put the enjoyment of players ahead of the arbitrary whims of a particular game's designer. Thus, I am not inclined to let go of the issue either quickly or easily.

I would also point out that a map that has a 100% chance of being whatever its designer wanted is not quite the same thing as a random map for which each possibility is genuinely equal. The human mind is not a random number generator.

Edit: Ducki, I didn't intend this as a personal attack on you, but rather a an explanation of why I view the issue as important. If you have a good reason not to tell us whether the map is Continents or Pangea, I would be interested in hearing it. Otherwise, I think your refusal to tell us is against the interests of Apolyton University and I hope that once you think about it, you willl recognize that too.

Nathan

[alexman]

Originally posted by ducki
Edit - in your previous post, did you mean industrial and not ancient?

Yes, thanks. Fixed.

Edit2 - I just fired up AU502_AUModv1o04__Sid_4000BC.sav and the Industrial tree uses the graphic listed on the AU mod page - Radio is removed, MT doesn't require Electronics. Am I missing something?

Have you installed the 1.18 patch, or otherwise replaced your default science_industrial.pcx? The 1.18b patch has the same tech tree as the AU mod.

From Conqueror's comments above, I suspect people are having the same 'problem' as I saw.

[ducki]

Edit: Apparently, I took statements such as "Even if you enjoy keeping the secret, is it fair for you to interfere with other people's fun for your own enjoyment?" and "Ducki has refused to provide the information for reasons that, as best I can tell, add up to little or nothing more than arbitrary whim." to be more personally than they were meant.
There's an extra spoiler thread now.
Maybe we could move on now?


AJ is right - this sort of thing isn't in keeping with our traditions, which is why I avoided responding to what I thought sounded a bit like personal attacks. In the future, I'll have another Course thread specifically for this sort of less formal debate, or will clarify meanings via PM. I apologize for letting my inexperience at running a course get the better of me.

[ducki]

Have you installed the 1.18 patch, or otherwise replaced your default science_industrial.pcx? The 1.18b patch has the same tech tree as the AU mod.

No, 1.15b, then the AU Optional graphics from the top of the AU C3C Mod thread.
You are talking the AU Mod game, NOT the 1.20 game, right? I can triple check a bit later today.

[Theseus]

Huzzah for ducki!!

Can't wait to get going, but I'm a bit confused by the dialogue re the AU mod graphics... should I wait a bit before downloading?

[alexman]

Ducki, actually both versions have the same problem, but don't worry about it, because this problem will go away as soon as people install the 1.20 patch.

So I suggest leaving all files as they are now. The 1.20 patch will fix all versions. It might even be out by the time we reach the industrial age.

If you really want the correct tech tree graphics with patch 1.15b, and you can't figure out how to do it, PM me.

[ducki]

Alexman, am I correct in that both AU Mod 1.04 AND our 1.20(preemptive) are supposed to have the same tech tree? I ask because the graphic on the Mod page is the one that doesn't have Radio. At least it is for me. Like I said, I'll try again later.

[alexman]

Yes, you are correct that the AU mod does not have the Radio tech, and therefore has the same tech tree as 1.20. Sorry for not listing it in the readme.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by ducki
2. Go check AU History 101 to see if you can back up your "normally available, traditionally available" claim. I spent 30 minutes there this week checking this very thing to make sure I wasn't jus being enigmatic, petulant, whimsical.

How hard were you looking specifically for whether Pangea/Continents/Archipelago was specified? Also keep in mind that the discussions in which we planned what kind of game to play next sometimes revealed additional information beyond what the download thread itself stated.

AU 101: Continents explicitly stated.
AU 102: Continents explicitly stated.
AU 103: Archipelago explicitly stated.
AU 104: The name indicates an island start, but the nature of the rest of the world is not disclosed.
AU 105: Not stated in the game downloard thread. I don't remember whether the pre-game discussion indicated what we could expect or not.
AU 106: Island start explicitly stated in the game thread. The pre-game discussion planned on having the AIs isolated where they also mostly would not have contact with very many of each other.
AU 107: The game was originally generated with all-random settings, but Catt gave his best guess at what the settings were in spite of that. We also knew from previous discussion that we would start on a relatively small and miserable island, although not as bad as Aeson's in his famous "So Very Cold" game.
AU 201: The existence of three continents, and even some information about how accessible to each other they were intended to be, was explicitly stated.
AU 202: Continents, explicitly stated.
AU 203: Not stated in the game download thread. I'm thinking we went into the game knowing to expect Continents, but I can't prove it.
AU 204: Deliberately intended as a random game, so no information available.
AU 205: A replay of a previous AU game to see how the new PtW expansion pack changed things. Those of us who had played 105 knew pretty much what to expect.
AU 206: Not stated in the game thread, but I'm almost positive we knew it was Continents from when we planned the game.
AU 207: Continents, explicitly stated.
AU 208: No information stated, and as best I recall, we didn't pre-plan it in another thread either.
AU 209: Continents, explicitly stated.
AU 210: Pangea, explicitly stated.
AU 302: Continents, explicitly stated.
AU 401: Pangea, explicitly stated.
AU 402: Archipelago, explicitly stated.
AU 501: Not explicitly stated, but the nature of the game very strongly implied Archipelago or at least something a lot more Archipelago-ish than the typical Continents map.

Even not allowing for situations where we knew more about the map than was stated in the download thread, situations where we knew whether the map was Continents, Pangea, or Archipelago significantly outnumber those where we did not. So yes, my words "normally available" and "traditionally available" are supportable. (Although if you were just looking for blocks where the conditions were laid out rather than looking carefully through the entire text, I can see how you could have missed some.)

I have no problem understanding the feelings of players who find the game more enjoyable when they know less. I like a certain amount of mystery myself. But the one thing I essentially never set as random is whether the map will be Continents, Pangea, or Archipelago because I like to know what I can expect in that regard so I can plan accordingly.

If this were a competitive game, I could see a need for all players to start with the same information. But when we aren't even all playing by the same set of rules, I see no good reason not to make the information of whether the map is Continents, Archipelago, or Pangea available to those who want it.

[nbarclay]

Duplicate Post

[DrSpike]

I think this has been blown out of proportion a little on both sides, unless I'm missing something. Nathan asked for the info, and wasn't answered categorically so kept asking.

For what it's worth, although I don't think it's a really big deal, I also prefer to know the barb level and the type of land.

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Originally posted by ducki
nathan, if you go back and read, even just the ones in this thread, you are being very passive-aggressive and a post-facto apology doesn't really change the tone you've set for this discussion. You have, indeed, been accusative and it hasn't been easy to not respond to the tone and language of your posts in this thread.

I'm going to bite my tongue for now and offer two suggestions.
1. Go reread the reasons I've already given.
2. Go check AU History 101 to see if you can back up your "normally available, traditionally available" claim. I spent 30 minutes there this week checking this very thing to make sure I wasn't jus being enigmatic, petulant, whimsical.

Hey guys, in RL I've recently become owner of a café (pub), reflecting less time to spend playing civ3, but believe me, I'm an addict, for over, let's say, ten years or more (playing civ1, civ2, CTP 1, MOO2 and others, now almost exclusively Civ3 -but hell, also strongly waiting for Rome Total War to be released, just love tactics and history ...).

Although I don't post very frequently, I hang arounbd these forums almost every day.

Troughout my readings I've built up respect for many posters, definitely including all posters who contribute to the civ experience in a positive manner. Certainly two of those are nbarclay and ducki.

I find it a little unfortunate that those two now seem a little bit 'irritated' by each other.

As an objective (that's at least my own personal 'objectivity' ) third party I'd like to point out that you both have acceptable reasons ... but as suggested earlier, both could be satisfied creating the extra thread ...

I also like to point out that it's important that there are discussions and opposite opinions, that's what's get things going and make things more interesting ...

Important is that these discussions remain civil, and that's no problem for most or all of you 'Apolyton contributors'.

IMHO nbarclay has not crossed this line at all, surely there sounded a little irritation in his post (as he doesn't see a fairly easy suggestion to implement implemented -don't know about the quality of this English though ), but again IMHO he was never 'very passive-aggressive ' at all, besides he already mentioned this :

"Edit: Ducki, I didn't intend this as a personal attack on you, but rather a an explanation of why I view the issue as important. If you have a good reason not to tell us whether the map is Continents or Pangea, I would be interested in hearing it. Otherwise, I think your refusal to tell us is against the interests of Apolyton University and I hope that once you think about it, you willl recognize that too.

Nathan"

which was rather civil to do.

So I hope healthy reasoning prevails, that you both
down a little bit and that, if others and Ducki agree, the extra thread is offered to nbarclay and other supporters (I personnaly don't really care for it, but others do, that's important).

Peace to all Apolyton and Civ lovers !!

Amen

AJ (trying to be fair)

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by ducki
1. Go reread the reasons I've already given.

From an earlier message from ducki:

I think not knowing, having a bit of mystery, adds to the fun, forces you to adapt to situations as they come, gives a bit more excitement to any discovery.

Since these reasons (and similar ones) are rooted in your personal preferences rather than in the specific nature of this particular game, I didn't try to argue that there was anything wrong with them. Instead, I proposed a way that people who think like you do can get what you want while people who think like I do can get what we want. If you felt like I was ignoring these reasons, I apologize, but I had already addressed them in a way that I felt was adequate and thus was not really thinking about them in my later posts.

[ducki]

I thought I had made it clear that I was working from a fairly well-established practice of not disclosing all the details of the world, which, taken literally, is borne out by AU History as well as AU501, which was my template, in particular. I was following a model set by Dominae, alexman, and others of not necessarily giving out all the settings.

I thought I'd been clear on that, but came off as being petty and controlling. In any future course I create, I will strive to be crystal clear for my reasoning behind anything that might be considered anomolous on all course related posts.

[nbarclay]

I think part of the disconnect is that you look at the template in terms of "some information is not disclosed" while I have some expectations from having played so many of these games before regarding which information I've almost always had and which is more frequently missing. Ironically, my view of precedent is probably also the biggest reason I haven't made a fuss over your decision not to reveal the exact barbarian setting: that information is not something I've gotten into nearly as much of a habit of expecting based on past AU games (even though it's information I'd really like to have). As a result of our different ways of looking at precedent, you felt justified by precedent in not answerong the Continents/Pangea question, while I felt like there was strong precedent that the information ought to be available (and, as a result, viewed your refusal to answer as highly arbitrary). Unfortunately, I think that disconnect resulted in moments of a bit more heat than either of us really wanted.

By the way, regarding AU 501, I was tempted there to press Dominae for verification of whether it would be on an Archipelago map. But I knew the intended game parameters and trusted Dominae to stick to them, so I figured I could safely use Archipelago-map tactics in the early game whether the original map Dominae adapted was officially an Archipelago map or not.

Edit: Thanks for posting the information!

Nathan

[Jawa Jocky]

Originally posted by ducki
Included in each zipfile are 6 SAV files, one for each difficulty from Regent to Sid, so pick whichever "flavor" and level of the game you want to play.

The stock zip is missing Regent and Monarch

[ducki]

You have got to be kidding me.
Gimme a minute.

Edit: How about now?