Thread Tools
Old March 22, 2004, 01:10   #61
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
I should have realized from your prior posts that you have no conception of history whatsoever. Hell, and you come from the general area of Genghis Khan and Mao Ze-dong.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 01:13   #62
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:32
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I should have realized from your prior posts that you have no conception of history whatsoever. Hell, and you come from the general area of Genghis Khan and Mao Ze-dong.
No, I am actully from Delta Lyrae.
__________________
(\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
(='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
(")_(") "Starting the fire from within."
Urban Ranger is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 01:14   #63
Giancarlo
King
 
Giancarlo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,886
How do you raise a child to be a Good Communist?

Simple. Don't get an education.
__________________
Lets face it. We flamiing queers have more appeal then Pat Robertson and other religious wackos. We have shows that are really growing in popularity. We have more channels (Q TV, Logo Channel). And we help people in their style issues (Queer Eye for the Straight Guy). The last thing I saw a religious preacher did was ask for $5 in a "generous pledge" to help his bank account in Zurich, erhm, some starving kids in Zimbabwe.
Giancarlo is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 01:15   #64
Nubclear
NationStatesCall to Power II Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamRise of Nations MultiplayerACDG The Human HiveNever Ending StoriesACDG The Free DronesACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessGalCiv Apolyton EmpireACDG3 SpartansC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameDiplomacyAlpha Centauri PBEMCivilization IV PBEMAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG Peace
PolyCast Thread Necromancer
 
Nubclear's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: We are all Asher now.
Posts: 1,437
Fez finally admits to his communist upbringings!
Nubclear is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 01:17   #65
Giancarlo
King
 
Giancarlo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,886
Quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Fez finally admits to his communist upbringings!
No, I am a capitalist. I am smart and I am getting an education.
__________________
Lets face it. We flamiing queers have more appeal then Pat Robertson and other religious wackos. We have shows that are really growing in popularity. We have more channels (Q TV, Logo Channel). And we help people in their style issues (Queer Eye for the Straight Guy). The last thing I saw a religious preacher did was ask for $5 in a "generous pledge" to help his bank account in Zurich, erhm, some starving kids in Zimbabwe.
Giancarlo is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 01:18   #66
joncha
MacNationStates
Emperor
 
joncha's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:32
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 7,173
Didn't you know? Fez is a socialist. Of the national variety.
__________________
If Tehben spits eggs at you, jump on them and throw them back. ~ WTF is Eventis? ~ Belgium Doesn't Exist!

And just in case a disputant, calls you to dispute about their claims,
Do not, then, dispute on them, except by way of an external dispute.
joncha is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 01:18   #67
Nubclear
NationStatesCall to Power II Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamRise of Nations MultiplayerACDG The Human HiveNever Ending StoriesACDG The Free DronesACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessGalCiv Apolyton EmpireACDG3 SpartansC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameDiplomacyAlpha Centauri PBEMCivilization IV PBEMAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG Peace
PolyCast Thread Necromancer
 
Nubclear's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: We are all Asher now.
Posts: 1,437
If classification A requires you to have trait B, and you have trait B, are you not A?
Nubclear is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 01:19   #68
Giancarlo
King
 
Giancarlo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,886
Quote:
Originally posted by joncha
Didn't you know? Fez is a socialist. Of the national variety.
Nope.
__________________
Lets face it. We flamiing queers have more appeal then Pat Robertson and other religious wackos. We have shows that are really growing in popularity. We have more channels (Q TV, Logo Channel). And we help people in their style issues (Queer Eye for the Straight Guy). The last thing I saw a religious preacher did was ask for $5 in a "generous pledge" to help his bank account in Zurich, erhm, some starving kids in Zimbabwe.
Giancarlo is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 07:59   #69
PeteH
Settler
 
Local Time: 19:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 0
To claim "thats how things have always seemed" with regard to a desire to destoy those around someone, and then to try and back that up by saying "havent you read any history" is almost funny.

A newsflash: History did not start 5-10 thousand years ago. The history of humans for >99% if their existance, is nothing like you assume 'human nature' to be. Our current situation is an anomoly which is having, and will continue to have until it is destroyed (and even then many of the most dangerous by products will continue doing harm), horrible effects on the rest of life in the world, including the lives of most humans.

I agree, a study of history can be very useful, its a shame most people only read the last page
PeteH is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 08:02   #70
Heavy and Happy
Settler
 
Heavy and Happy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 7
You dispatch a bullet through his head.
Heavy and Happy is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 08:10   #71
Ogie Oglethorpe
ACDG3 Spartans
Emperor
 
Ogie Oglethorpe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 3,521
Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Aggie's been getting selfish lately and painting ideologies with a wide brush, isn't he?
The first steps, the first steps.

Next he will have to develop a work ethic.
__________________
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
Ogie Oglethorpe is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 13:24   #72
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
Quote:
Originally posted by PeteH
A newsflash: History did not start 5-10 thousand years ago.
Technically it did. History means written & oral records of our past. The period before records were kept is pre-history. The general gist of your comment, however, is correct.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 14:05   #73
Kuciwalker
Deity
 
Kuciwalker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 21,822
Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger


What kind of natural greed will make a person goes out and crush everybody else who opposes him?


Someone needs to pick up a first-grade history textbook
__________________
[Obama] is either a troll or has no ****ing clue how government works - GePap
Later amendments to the Constitution don't supersede earlier amendments - GePap
Kuciwalker is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 14:07   #74
Kuciwalker
Deity
 
Kuciwalker's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 21,822
Quote:
Originally posted by PeteH
To claim "thats how things have always seemed" with regard to a desire to destoy those around someone, and then to try and back that up by saying "havent you read any history" is almost funny.

A newsflash: History did not start 5-10 thousand years ago. The history of humans for >99% if their existance, is nothing like you assume 'human nature' to be. Our current situation is an anomoly which is having, and will continue to have until it is destroyed (and even then many of the most dangerous by products will continue doing harm), horrible effects on the rest of life in the world, including the lives of most humans.

I agree, a study of history can be very useful, its a shame most people only read the last page


Our current situation isn't an "anomaly", it's a natural progression of human affairs.
__________________
[Obama] is either a troll or has no ****ing clue how government works - GePap
Later amendments to the Constitution don't supersede earlier amendments - GePap
Kuciwalker is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 14:11   #75
Kidicious
Deity
 
Kidicious's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,628
Re: How do you raise a child to be a Good Communist?
Quote:
Originally posted by JohnT
The point is that children are greedy, needful things who don't like to be thwarted. But Communism is all about the denial of personal wants and the unacceptability of private property, programs your child will not care for. Loudly. Vocally. For years.
If you think that Sophie is naturally greedy you should stop and ask yourself why she understands the word 'mine.' It's true that children have a natural survival instinct and that the concept of getting what you want through cooperation takes longer to understand than just grabbing what you need, but what you failed to realize is that Sophie was really looking to you to show hear what acceptable behavior is. And yes, I understand that she is only 2, and when they are that age you just give them the menu or whatever. The point is that children are socialized. They aren't born perfect citizens. They have to be taught how to get their needs met in the society that they live in whether it's a communist society or a capitalist society. After all, she has to learn that it's not acceptable to take the salt from the restaurant in both types of societies right?

And my answer to your question about raising good communists is to create a children's show staring commie kittens.

__________________
Obedience unlocks understanding. - Rick Warren
1 John 2:3 - ... we know Christ if we obey his commandments. (GWT)
John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am ... the truth." (NKJV)
Kidicious is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 14:21   #76
Inverse Icarus
Emperor
 
Inverse Icarus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: flying too low to the ground
Posts: 4,625
Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The point isn't that humans are naturally inclined towards capitalism or communism (though if one were to make that argument, surely the fact that we've only been capitalist for the last few hundred years, while for about three million we were communist would show what we are "naturally"). What we argue is that humans are by nature, social creatures, and that we make our societies and our relations with each other. Thus, we are as naturally communist as we are capitalist.

Birdseed is very correct to point out that the two-year old child is not a model of ideal human relations, in any society.
bingo.

JohnT, you seem quite insistant on the fact that nothing you did has fostered these feelings in Sophie. While I do not personally know exactly how Sophie was raised, I would contend that at one point in time you did put the idea of exclusive ownership into her head, and at that time it might have seemed unfair to her. for example, she went to go play with your laptop, and you may have scolded her and told her that was daddy's, and she mustn't touch it. You may have even given her a avlid reason for it, but she would most likely not comprehend it as valid, and just think you were keeping things from her.

In this case, she would be mimicking behavior she noticed in you. Finding something, and claiming it yours, making seemingly unfair claims to it's ownership.

I seriously doubt that this thread is actually looking for quality advice and ideas about raising socialist children, so i won't waste my time.
__________________
"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
Inverse Icarus is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 14:23   #77
Ogie Oglethorpe
ACDG3 Spartans
Emperor
 
Ogie Oglethorpe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 3,521
Quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Birdseed is very correct to point out that the two-year old child is not a model of ideal human relations, in any society.
The point that will continue to be made is that given certain level of stress man will revert back to his child. In this case a greedy wanting child. (No offense to Sophie intended).

Other levels of learnings (i.e. social indoctrination) supress this base nature to the point that man can see the mutual benefit of altruistic behavior. Do we see this all the time during stressful times, no but the tendency and base desires do exist. To deny their existance is to deny a prime motivator of man. To continue to deny their existance allows folks to demonize others as unnatural and immoral. (see below)

Does man wish to be a social creature, yes. For what reason? To feel good about himself and his own sense of self image in todays terms, in previous prehistory to help chances of survival.

Is competition a foreign concept to man? No. Lord knows we have any number of debaters here who feel the need to prove themselves and win a debate. Why? See above.

Thus, the out of self interest people go out of there way to crush someone else. Its called feeling better about themselves by being so-called better than someone else. Describes a whole host of repugnant human behaviors from religious crusades to racism.
__________________
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
Ogie Oglethorpe is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 14:25   #78
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
Quote:
The history of humans for >99% if their existance, is nothing like you assume 'human nature' to be.
A majority of human existance has been under some form of dictatorship. So I think the point about human nature stands.
__________________
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 14:27   #79
General Ludd
NationStates
Emperor
 
General Ludd's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Minion of the Dominion
Posts: 4,607
Quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich




Our current situation isn't an "anomaly"

Then why is it the first and only time it has happened in the history of the universe (as we know it)?


EDIT: Oh, are you a creationist?
__________________
Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse

Do It Ourselves

Last edited by General Ludd; March 22, 2004 at 14:37.
General Ludd is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 14:31   #80
Inverse Icarus
Emperor
 
Inverse Icarus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 14:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: flying too low to the ground
Posts: 4,625
Re: Re: How do you raise a child to be a Good Communist?
Quote:
Originally posted by Kidicious
And my answer to your question about raising good communists is to create a children's show staring commie kittens.

VICTORY FOR THE *meow* PROLETARIAT!
__________________
"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
Inverse Icarus is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 14:33   #81
Kidicious
Deity
 
Kidicious's Avatar
 
Local Time: 11:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 12,628
Quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
The point that will continue to be made is that given certain level of stress man will revert back to his child. In this case a greedy wanting child. (No offense to Sophie intended).
You seem to be agreeing that man will function normally as long as he can get what he needs and wants from society, and that he will only exhibit anti-social behavior when society is not providing for his needs. I'm I right?
__________________
Obedience unlocks understanding. - Rick Warren
1 John 2:3 - ... we know Christ if we obey his commandments. (GWT)
John 14:6 - Jesus said to him, "I am ... the truth." (NKJV)
Kidicious is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 14:42   #82
Ogie Oglethorpe
ACDG3 Spartans
Emperor
 
Ogie Oglethorpe's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Marietta, GA
Posts: 3,521
Tp an extent yes. But mans needs are such that they never are completely fulfilled. Hence my point re: his need to have high self esteem. In many cases, that is derived from his sense of competition and doing well at the expense of others.

All one needs do is look at the amount of I win, you lose posts on this board to see that.
__________________
"Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

“In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter
Ogie Oglethorpe is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 14:44   #83
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
Re: Re: Re: How do you raise a child to be a Good Communist?
Quote:
Originally posted by Uber KruX


VICTORY FOR THE *meow* PROLETARIAT!
Just call me Chairman Meow.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 14:49   #84
Nubclear
NationStatesCall to Power II Democracy GameInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamRise of Nations MultiplayerACDG The Human HiveNever Ending StoriesACDG The Free DronesACDG The Cybernetic ConsciousnessGalCiv Apolyton EmpireACDG3 SpartansC4DG Team Alpha CentauriansCiv4 SP Democracy GameDiplomacyAlpha Centauri PBEMCivilization IV PBEMAlpha Centauri Democracy GameACDG Peace
PolyCast Thread Necromancer
 
Nubclear's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: We are all Asher now.
Posts: 1,437
Who the **** cares if its natural or not?
If it is: Yay.
If its not: Then let us, as human beings, use our higher brain functions to surpress our natural tendenciesand embrace something thats a little more advanced.
Nubclear is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 15:02   #85
chequita guevara
ACDG The Human HiveDiplomacyApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
chequita guevara's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Fort LOLderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Posts: 9,091
Quote:
Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
In this case a greedy wanting child. (No offense to Sophie intended).
I should point out that this is the same child that saw a baby in distress and without any prompting went over to comfort it.

Quote:
To deny their existance is to deny a prime motivator of man. To continue to deny their existance allows folks to demonize others as unnatural and immoral. (see below)
No one is denying the existence, but to point at one aspect of human nature and say this is the sole or prime motivator among the myriad of human reason and emotions is faulty thinking.

Quote:
Does man wish to be a social creature, yes. For what reason?
It is not a matter or whether we wish it or not. We are not snakes or bears or other solitary creatures who occassionally bump into other humans. Our mode of existnece is based upon our interaction with other humans. We are a cooperative species innately. Without others of our kind, our mind becomes ill. Solitary confinement is one of the worst punishments tere is, and being alone is one of our greatest fears. On top of that, cooperation is necessary for survival.

The question isn't are we competitve or cooperative. We are clearly both. The problem of capitalism is that it exagerates one aspect of our nature, the competitive part, at the expense of our other nature, which is to join together and form groups. The problem with Stalinism is that it tried to crush the indivdual aspect of our natures and force everyone to be a group. The point, rather, is to create a society which allows for the maximize both our indivudal and cooperative aspects.

When you look at Marx's writings, it is clear he doesn't advocate a society where we are like bees or cogs in a machine. He wants to create a society where every person is able to develop all aspects of themselves to the utmost. But capitalism requires min-maxing (to use game terms). This is most efficient in a society that is geared towards winning. But it makes for being a very poor and anti-social human being otherwise.
__________________
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
chequita guevara is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 15:06   #86
Agathon
Mac
Emperor
 
Agathon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:32
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wal supports the CPA
Posts: 3,948
As an answer to the first question. If you raise your child to be a moral person and you succeed, he/she will automatically become a communist.
__________________
Only feebs vote.
Agathon is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 15:07   #87
Giancarlo
King
 
Giancarlo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,886
Quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
As an answer to the first question. If you raise your child to be a moral person and you succeed, he/she will automatically become a communist.
No, that is capitalism.

Thank goodness communism collapsed in 1991.
__________________
Lets face it. We flamiing queers have more appeal then Pat Robertson and other religious wackos. We have shows that are really growing in popularity. We have more channels (Q TV, Logo Channel). And we help people in their style issues (Queer Eye for the Straight Guy). The last thing I saw a religious preacher did was ask for $5 in a "generous pledge" to help his bank account in Zurich, erhm, some starving kids in Zimbabwe.
Giancarlo is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 15:10   #88
JohnT
lifer
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
JohnT's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 4,264
Quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
As an answer to the first question. If you raise your child to be a moral person and you succeed, he/she will automatically become a communist.
Odd, that's not what happened in your case.

Uber, where have I been quite insistent about anything? I only mentioned Sophie once, and have yet to follow up with a single on-topic remark that has any semblence to the issues raised in my own OP!
JohnT is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 15:12   #89
Agathon
Mac
Emperor
 
Agathon's Avatar
 
Local Time: 04:32
Local Date: November 3, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wal supports the CPA
Posts: 3,948
I've grown tired of being polite. The political right are simply immoral. They pretend they aren't, and hide behind arrguments about economic means, but they are, wittingly or no, at odds with basic human decency.

Not that they care.
__________________
Only feebs vote.
Agathon is offline  
Old March 22, 2004, 15:16   #90
JohnT
lifer
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
JohnT's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:32
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 4,264


Pot to kettle: "Hey, you're black!"
JohnT is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 15:32.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team