Weakest factions?

[Maniac]

I was wondering, what are generally considered the weakest faction in the game when played by humans? Could you please vote for the three factions that you consider the weakest? Thanks.

[Method]

hmmm....They're all fairly balanced, and are equally 'strong' when played to their strengths. However, i'm going to go by my experiences with them.

Believers, yes i know are great if you just use a lot of probes and conquer the hell out of everyone. But...eh. I don't like the idea of -2 research.

Drones. I guess they just don't fit my playing style...

Angels. With this one, their only bonus is probe...And that's not much of a 'niche' if you ask me.

Was going to say pirates, but it really depends on the map. If there's a lot of ocean shelf, they can rock. If not, then they'll really have a hard time.

Whoever voted for the aliens, I don't see why. If anything, they're overpowered. When you play as them, you can just gas the hell out of everyone...

[Chaos Theory]

Cult, Spartans, and Believers.

For the first two, negative industry is a harsh penalty, and neither faction has strong enough strengths to make up for it.

The Drones have just as strong a research penalty as the Believers, but they can make up for it faster by churning out cities, formers, and supply crawlers much faster, thanks to +2 industry and -1 drone/city.

I am aware that the three factions I mentioned can do rather well in cramped quarters, but I rarely play games on maps smaller than Large, and try to avoid having factions start very near each other.

[Method]

the cult's not that underpowered, really. This, as the cult on standard map of planet...

Starting at the freshwater sea, i managed to conquer morgan within the first 10 turns. Then by trolling the fungus i was able to get a whole bunch more worms, which made short work of Domai after being loaded onto a few captured (by gun a foil) IODs. Said IODs were able to quickly hand Svensgaard his arse on a platter. By now it's about 2200, the mind worms are mature and great boils, it's just a matter of time before you can reach the other three factions...I only built a grand total of five bases the whole game, and won a diplomatic victory (ok, so i cheated a little in that regard, but diplomatic gives more points than conquest )

Industry and economy penalties are negligible, since you can capture your entire army and steal all the tech you need.

[Guynemer]

I don't think the Spartans are weak at all.

Yes, the industry penalty can hurt, but it is more than made up for by their support bonus. For most of the game, you'll effectively have a positive industry rating, simply because you won't lose as many minerals to support.


I'd say the Angels, Believers... hard to come up with a third one. Well, at least as played by the AI, I'd say the Cult.

[CEO Aaron]

Uh... What support bonus? The Spartans have no support bonus innately, they can run police or power or both, but those choices have substantial penalties to energy production and industry, respectively.

Spartans are my number one choice for weakest faction. They're mediocre in all categories, the discounted prototypes is a negligible bonus, the inability to run Wealth coupled with an already weak industrial base makes them incapable of anything but the most halfhearted builder-style strategies, and for a momentum faction, their bonuses are decidedly weak.

The morale bonus only makes a difference in the early-mid game, if you don't capitalize on it then, by the later portions of the midgame, everyone else will have equally elite units if they choose. By comparison, the Believers get additional support, allowing much larger armies, and an attack bonus which helps the entire game-long. Yang enjoys superior industry and growth, and enjoys an inefficiency-free planned/police SE choice that makes a permanent war footing a viable alternative.

If the Spartans morale bonus could somehow translate to troops that would be elite-plus, that would make their penalties worth abiding, but sadly, this is not the case.

My number two choice for weakest faction is the Pirates. Also saddled with the crushing -1 industry penalty, and an efficiency penalty to boot, these guys have a horrible opening game, further crippled by the fact that all their early units are 50-100% more expensive than their land-based counterparts. Add to that the problem that IOD's move 4 spaces to rush up on undefended bases without warning, and you have a faction that must expand slowly and conservatively, and spends most of the game playing catch-up, until one of the land-based factions takes notice of them and extinguishes them.

Proponents of both the Spartans and Pirates point out that their early exploration allows them to collect more pods than other factions. However, my experience has led me to firmly believe that when playing at Transcend difficulty, opening pods away from bases _more_ often produces negative results than positive ones. So I'll happily take half the pods if I can open them with a base next door, ensuring that such horrors as mindworms and earthquakes can't happen, and increasing my likelihood of finding the all-powerful alien artifact, then I count the 'exploration bonus' a non-advantage.

Number 3 in the weakest faction contest is the Cult. Again, the industry penalty is horrid, coupled with an equally devastating economy penalty, to make a faction whose only hope lies in going worm heavy in the first stages of the game, and hoping they get lucky. The only upside I see to this faction is the worm-police bonus, and a short trip to raising of nutrient restrictions, allowing an early population surge, with proper micromanagement. However, this is extremely tricky to bring off, and a Morganite or University wonder-grabber getting PTS will almost certainly leapfrog you come midgame.

[Method]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Pirates...-1 industry penalty...

That's growth. And there's more than enough nutrients at sea.

[CEO Aaron]

I do find the oft-maligned Believers to be an exceedingly strong faction. High support rating, and a combat bonus that never becomes irrelevant make the Believers the most powerful and flexible of the momentum factions, hampered only by a single drawback, namely the research penalty.

Skilled use of probe teams, coupled with a large and aggressive military can render your tech problems entirely moot, leaving you with a strong balanced faction. Good support allows ample use of formers, while still allowing a substantial garrison and expeditionary force.

[CEO Aaron]

Method, you're right. My mistake. Nevertheless, I'm sticking with my story. Just like in real life, Pirates die when someone real takes the effort to destroy them.

[Method]

True they have a slow early game, but there's always a lot of minerals at sea for them. Mining platforms are 2 minerals, + pirate bonus + trunklines + bonus at advanced ecological engineering can make them 5 minerals each. That and free naval yards at doctine: initiative gives them a 100% defensive bonus. So it might be a little tricky to pull off against anything but the AI, but still....

EDIT: +no aversion SE settings.

[Chaos Theory]

The Pirates do suffer, even at sea. Mining platforms preclude tidal harnesses, which are wonderful for energy. Subsea Trunklines cost 4 energy in maintenance and are expensive to build, so I never build them. I'd much rather have a kelp + harness tile producing 4-1-4 (with aquafarm and thermocline transducer) than a kelp + mine tile producing 3-3-0 before EcoEng2 (which is rather late) and with the expensive Trunkline.

To take advantage of the free naval yards on defense, you need to defend with ships, but ships in bases suffer greatly against air; air attacks at double strength. No one should bother attacking pirates with ships, anyway.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Clarify whether you mean weakest plyed by a human, or played by the AI, they are very different. Generally the the AI run well the more exoctic/unbalanced factions, while ha human can very effectively exploit their strength and avoid their weakness.

[Jamski]

The main advantage the Pirates have, that we've all forgotten, is that they can always grab all the best landmarks, with some skill and luck.

Monsoon forest is soooo good it hurts.

-Jam

[Guynemer]

Silly me, I forgot the Spartans don't have an inate support bonus.


However, if one plays them as PS/Green/Power, you have an industrial and military juggernaut, with only a minor growth penalty.

Not my favorite faction by a longshot, but I find it hard to believe they are one of the three weakest.


EDIT: assuming you use your increased support to build the SP that eliminates the negative aspect of Power... Cyborg Factory? Can't seem to remember...

[Jac de Molay]

Nah, the Cyborg Factor enhances the Power SE because its a bioenhancement center in every base(+2 morale, all).

I don't particularly care for the Morgans. It takes a set of favorable circumstances for them to get going, but that's just me I guess. Also, a rather dull faction: not a lot of leeway to get out and explore like my two faves: Hive and Gaians.

[BustaMike]

The Pirates are hands down the weakest, followed by the Cult.

[BustaMike]

Originally posted by Method
True they have a slow early game, but there's always a lot of minerals at sea for them. Mining platforms are 2 minerals, + pirate bonus + trunklines + bonus at advanced ecological engineering can make them 5 minerals each. That and free naval yards at doctine: initiative gives them a 100% defensive bonus. So it might be a little tricky to pull off against anything but the AI, but still....

EDIT: +no aversion SE settings.

That stuff you mentioned is bad not good. You need a facility and a crapload of terraforming time to get decent mineral output in the ocean. Another faction could use the same time and resources and easily get double the output. The only way the pirates can survive in a good game is to get on land ASAP.

[Frankychan]

1) Cult

In the games I used to play, they were usually conquered extremely quickly. This alone proved to me that they were pretty crappy.

2) Morgan

I'm a SMAC player so I deal with Morgan in (almost) every game. I've played him and I have to say that his "perks" don't add up to much. The only thing I've found that he's good for is creds to buy up units with Probes....but I usually defend those easily. But with this said, I have to tell y'all about my recent encounter with Morgan...


....I forgot which faction I picked for the third one...whoops!

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Clarify whether you mean weakest plyed by a human, or played by the AI, they are very different.

The weakest when being played by humans.

Personally I voted for the Believers, Cult and Spartans.

Believers: I just can't play them well, but I guess that would be just me.

Cult & Spartans: They both have a -1 Industry Penalty, and they both can't run Wealth SE, which is for about all factions the standard choice for a large portion of the game. This means that besides a -1 or -2 Eco penalty, they effectively also have a -2 Ind penalty relative to about all other factions.
As a consequence the Gaians, the other Planet faction, can do about everything better that the Cult is good in. And for the Spartans, unless they can really conquer someone early, due to their bad industry they soon become weaker in military, despite that supposedly having to be the Spartans' strength.


I don't really understand why so many people are voting for the Angels. Sure they don't really have a very useful bonus. But neither do they have a serious penalty unlike some other factions: they can popboom, have a normal industry and can run FM: everything needed for a decent builder game.

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Silly me, I forgot the Spartans don't have an inate support bonus.


However, if one plays them as PS/Green/Power, you have an industrial and military juggernaut, with only a minor growth penalty.

Not my favorite faction by a longshot, but I find it hard to believe they are one of the three weakest.


EDIT: assuming you use your increased support to build the SP that eliminates the negative aspect of Power... Cyborg Factory? Can't seem to remember...

Spartans an Industrial Juggernaut? Sorry, but Spartans running the SE choices you list have an industry of -3, growth of -2, and only zero efficency. You do have plenty of support, but your unit production is so slow, you'll never actually use all the support you're paying for. Stipulating the Cloning Vats is a spurious notion, because with your weak industry and average research, you're not going to GET the cloning vats.

Far better for Sparta is Fundy/Planned/Knowledge, where your extra morale boost is enough for your ground units to come out Commando with only a Command Center, ready for an instant upgrade to elite at your friendly neighborhood Monolith. Planned cancels out your industry bonus, Fundy and Knowlege's research mods cancel each other out, and your efficiency is no worse than Lal's.

[Method]

Originally posted by Maniac
whatever he said about the angels

meh. I still like to grab the Ascentic Virtues, put brood pits in all my bases, and then build as many air units as I want in free market without causing P-drones

and Mike...meh. It's because of things like that, that I don't play MP

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Frankychan
2) Morgan

I'm a SMAC player so I deal with Morgan in (almost) every game. I've played him and I have to say that his "perks" don't add up to much. The only thing I've found that he's good for is creds to buy up units with Probes....but I usually defend those easily. But with this said, I have to tell y'all about my recent encounter with Morgan...

Well, I know Morgan has his detractors, but I have to say, the power of early energy credits cannot be overstated. Those 100 ECs allow you to by Recycling Tanks for your first two bases within 7 turns of base founding. That additional influx of resources is like having a third invisible base. Later on, Morgan's ability to stay on a War Footing while maintaining +2 Economy means that you have the ability to prosecute an offensive war while maintaining technological parity with non-belligerrent factions. In short, money is the most flexible and powerful resource in SMAX, and Morgan gets the most of it. However, making the best use of that money takes skill and planning.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by CEO Aaron
Far better for Sparta is Fundy/Planned/Knowledge,

Doh! Meant Planned... only played one game as the Spartans, I've forgotten much. I just found it much easier than I anticipated.

I stand by PS & Power, though; the boost to support means you essentially have no support costs, making all units effectively clean.

[RoadRash]

The following comes from observing AI performance with each faction.


Pathetic:
- Morgan: He talks big, but his stuff is always shriveled by the end of the day.
- Angels: She calls them hackers but apparently they are game-addicted nerds who spend their workday surfing the net.
- Consciousness: a sexy but narcissistic faction. Their condescending attitude towards "breeders" leads to early extinction.


Weak:
- Spartans: When a high school Phys Ed period lasts 6 hours a day, you might wonder how well the students will fit into the workplace after graduation. Answer: not very well. The Spartan's snobbish social order constrains their productivity, leaving them chained and snarling like a yard dog.
- The Cult: Their love for all things fungal makes them initially dangerous, by encouraging hordes of psychotic worms to enlist in their forces. But their chantings and prancings can only take them so far before they run out of worms and have to work for a living.
- University: Bookworm Zhakarov has found new respect by reluctantly agreeing to pose as a front man, for legions of couch potatoes who don't get enough fresh air. With faction members reluctant to abandon their recliners and remote controls, the University finds itself vulnerable to more aggressive jock types. It turns out that tall stacks of manuals can indeed stop a bullet, but they won't win the war.


Mediocre:
- Believers: Blindly bellicose, Miriam's future is brightest when she has a pusillanimous neighbor to blackmail. But eventually, her bombastic rhetoric fails to frighten, and she must invade. Her fanatical soldiers are often victorious. Under her brute-force managerial style, conquered intellectuals sink into a stew of ignorance and her faction gradually loses relevance.
- Pirates: Though puny on land, their dizzying proliferation of sea bases chokes the map and ensures their survival. Their favorite trick is to plant an endless series of unproductive offshore sea bases as giant aircraft carriers. Perpetually irritating, the Pirates serve as a primary incentive to learn the "obliterate base" hotkey.
- Gaians: Deidre's treehugging ways now serve her in good staid. Her dirt-worship soothes the angry planet and expedites her early expansion. But the palpable scorn she heaps upon her fellow man leads to sad-sack troops who rarely carry the day.


Strong:
- Peacekeepers: Lal's mealy mouthed Machiavellian murmurings may have fooled many, but... well... ok it's working solidly in his favor. His bases swell with legions of civilians duped by his promises. To you and me, he might be Hitler in a turban, but until our counter-propaganda campaigns succeed, he's in charge of a large productive population willing to beat the snot out of anyone who refuses to brown-nose.
- The Hive: Yang presides over the most highly evolved and evil bureacracy known to mankind. Using a combination of nerve stapling, forced pregnancies and sophisticated leave-no-mark torture techniques, his regime has become shockingly proficient at producing war materiel. His human wave tactics even give pause to progenitor factions.
- Drones: Foreman Domai has quietly replaced hourly pay with "piece-work" pay, while restructuring payroll to scale each worker's pay as a percentage of all worker payments for the period. The resulting frenzied pace of production has exceeded all expectations. Domai's factories produce staggering quantaties of obsolete military hardware. His troops might seem inept, but they swarm their neighbors like ants killing an elephant. Even progenitor factions must consider whether Domai's blue collar hordes are worth tangling with.


Danger, Will Robinson:
- Caretakers: They massacre the nearest human faction, then pound senseless anyone stupid enough to get within 500 miles.
- Usurpers: They wipe out everything within their long long reach. Genocide is definitely on their menu. After each conquest, roads are lined with scorched refugee pods. And in a duel with the Caretakers, the Usurpers usually win, which places the Usurpers at the absolute top of the Alpha Centauri food chain.

[Jamski]

Probably a good assessment of the AI's capabilties with each faction. And a good read too

Personally, I'd swop Deedee and Lal. Those Gaians always seem to be still in the race, even after the Hive have dropped off.

-Jam

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Method
meh. I still like to grab the Ascentic Virtues, put brood pits in all my bases, and then build as many air units as I want in free market without causing P-drones

Avoiding pacifism drones under Free Market can also be done with a specialist base or a punishment sphere base that supports all air units. Granted, it takes a little more organization and flying around of your air units, but on the plus side this tactic is available earlier than Brood Pits, and you save lots of cash and minerals not having to build Brood Pits in all your bases.

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by Maniac
Avoiding pacifism drones under Free Market can also be done with a specialist base or a punishment sphere base that supports all air units. Granted, it takes a little more organization and flying around of your air units, but on the plus side this tactic is available earlier than Brood Pits, and you save lots of cash and minerals not having to build Brood Pits in all your bases.

Yes, and then suddenly that base is taken.
What do you do then?
Unless you like to have all your 'stapled' drones in the capital off course...

[Jamski]

You make that base a fortress. Perimiter defenses, only one road link, that goes over a rocky bunker filled with decent troops, sensors, interceptors, probe defenders, a patroling rover, artillery, and more troops.

Its GREAT to see people throwing soliders at a well defended strongpoint.

-Jam

[Barinthus]

RoadRash a pleasure to read!

[Zeiter]

I've noticed that when looking at who is weakest, soooooo much depends on your starting placement on the map.

For example, if you are playing Miriam, you want to be as close to the other factions as possible in order to probe rape them, threaten them, and if necessary, eliminate them with your +25% attack bonus. However, if Miriam starts out on an island halfway around the planet from everyone else, you are in a load of trouble. By the time you contact the other factions, they will be so far ahead in tech and SP's that you'll have no hope but to rush them with impact rovers or something. But even then, you've got to sail around to the other side of planet in your rinky dink transport foils, moving 3 spaces a turn and carrying only 2 units apiece. So, by the time you land your troops on their continents, they are probably already defensively established, and your faction is as good as dead. In summary, Miriam is a good faction when in the thick of things, but bad when off by herself.

For me, Morgan is the most difficult to play as because it just seems that he sorely lacks any flexibility. When things don't go according to plan (such as a neighbor invading you early on), it is hard to compensate with him. The support and hab complex restraints really hurt, in my opinion. You have to stop whatever you are in the middle of to build hab complexes early (unless you want to stay with size 4 bases). This takes too much time early on, in my opinion. I almost always run democracy, I love the extra growth and efficiency, but with Morgan, if you run democracy you are saddled with huge support costs. Then if you run FM and wealth, you've got a faction who produces puny very-green or disciplined military units, who can't support those military units, and who can't even move those units away from bases. See what I mean by inflexible? If you are in the thick of things, Morgan is a wimp. You can try to use probe team mind controls and subversions, but if your opponents are smart, they will make sure to stack their units at least 2 to a square where vulnerable and have plently of probe teams of their own handy. Also, unless you are probing Zakharov, those mind controls can be expensive, even for Morgan's tastes. And if you are fighting Miriam, forget it.

Morgan is a great builder, and if you can manage to get everything to go according to plan, he can become very powerful. I definitely agree that you generally have to have some favorable circumstances early on to get going well. He is prone to a military spanking by Yang or Miriam, and has trouble compensating for such snags as a military invasion. If you can get him past the early-mid game in good shape, he really starts to shine. For me, though, he seems like the weakest of the original SMAC factions.

I'd have to say the strongest faction is Lal. He gets an extra talent every four citizens, which greatly helps out with drone problems. He can easily pop-boom. He has +50% planetary council votes for governor and supreme leader. His pop restriction is less (size 16 bases early on, or even 18 with ascetic virtues.) Best of all, he doesn't have any significant drawbacks, so he is very versatile and he can respond to threats, invasions, or snags in your strategy with relative ease.

Edit: I almost forgot, Morgan has a lot of trouble pop-booming without being able to run planned, which makes him even weaker!