The way of the apolyton brat - Page 2

September 27, 2000, 23:11

<center><table width=80%><tr><td>quote:
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Originally posted by Eyes Of Night on 09-27-2000 10:29 PM

Why do you want me to post it so bad?

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Well for one thing it shows what the real purpose of this thread is, and I imagine with hindsight that was also the purpose of the lopsided games we played - namely, just a chance for you to slag off at apolytoners. It also shows a few other interesting things too

Does anyone know how to get the log back? Eyes clearly won't post it, and I think we all now know why.

If you don't post it Eyes, your credibility is yet further shot to pieces. I guess my prediction to you on the chat of what would happen if you posted a thread like this is coming true

You can't say you weren't warned.

Spider · September 27, 2000, 23:33

LOL, Well it's not like EoN could lose any credibility around here. Don't sweat it AH, everyone here knows the type of guy you're dealing with. You don't have to prove EoN was cheating; it's up to him to prove he wasn't cheating.

September 27, 2000, 23:42

Thanks Spider. In the icq chat log Eyes clearly offers to post the King Chat. He brought it up in fact. Now he won't. How interesting..............

Spider · September 27, 2000, 23:51

I don't know him, but I've read his posts over the years here, his lame excuses when he was caught cheating a year ago and all of his tirades since. He's one of those creeps who just like creating controversy. You know the type: Little kid, no power in real-life, "I'm gonna be a *****, and you can't stop me!"

September 27, 2000, 23:54

What are you trying to say AH? That this is some intricate scheme of mine? Fine, here it is.

To Emperor Horsie (1500 B.C.): Yes or no. Do you have evidence or not?
From Emperor Horsie (1500 B.C.): if I have evdience, I'll keep it to myself for now
To Emperor Horsie (1500 B.C.): Here's what I think, I think this is complete bull****. You have no evidence.
From Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): even your eagerness to find out makes you look sus
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): No, I just like to argue. Why do you think I cheated in the first place a year ago?
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): Because I needed to win? lol
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): Why would I need to cheat when I already play like a god?
From Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): if you cheat you don't win
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): hehehe Do you have any idea how man forum posts I got?
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): HA! I already play like a god, I don't need to cheat.
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): I had tons of forum posts dedicated to me. Arguments were everywhere!!! I LOVED IT!!!
From Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): I don't think your worth arguing over
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): I don't think you have any evidence.
From Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): he he, we'll see
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): Yeah, I guess we will won't we?
From Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): have your turn, and I hope you haven't counted these games for GL
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): Why would I? You have no points.
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): I can only play the top 3 players right now for points.
From Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): have your turn brainiac
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): Aren't you having fun arguing?
From Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): yes

To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): I know I am. I'd rather exchange words with you than play.
From Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): so why do you cheat?
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): Espeically since I'm the one doing all the arguing and you're just throwing out meed replies.
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): I don't cheat.
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): That was a stupid question. Come on, get some intelligence. You have to be sneaky about it.
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): Ask something like "Have you ever felt the need to cheat before?"
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): Because then you're subtly hinting to the fact that you suspect me.
To Emperor Horsie (1450 B.C.): Now try it again.
From Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): yes but why would you if you are such a good player
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): I don't now. I did that a full year ago one time. And I already explained to you those reasons.
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): See, now you're being dumb again. You're beating a dead horse. You have to take a different angle of attack.
From Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): You must be the luckiest player I ever met then
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): How about the fact that you don't go out and explore enough?
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): How about the fact that you go for polytheism instead of feudalism?
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): How about the fact that you don't build enough settlers?
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): Maybe it's you?
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): Maybe you're not as good as you think?
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): But of course that couldn't be the case. After all you apolytoners are the best right? Obviously there is some more sinister reason in effect here.
From Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): how can I when you uncannily find my cities by 3500 BC, 3 games in a row - people would think you were looking at the map
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): I don't believe I found your cities this game by 3500BC>
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): I don't think I found them the first game we played either, especially since it was 2x1x.
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): I must have some pretty fast horsemen.
From Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): yes you did - 3 games in a row, you also knew by 3950 BC that you were on a small island - go figure

To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): Continent number moron.
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): Come on!! Give me a challenge here. These questions are too easy to answer.
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): I really expected more from you.
From Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): he he, there are other things - I've looked at your maps, noted lags, etc. etc. C'mon Eyes, you can tell old horsie

To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): Other things huh? Tell good old eyes about the "other things".
From Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): Oh 'cmon Eyes, you play these crap settings - hardly the setting of champions
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): No, you play beginner settings. No fighting, just building. It's a race for happy wonders.
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): You don't ahve to worry about being attacked..
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): You dont' have to worry about anything but getting the happy wonders first.
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): On these settings you have to get out and start fighting, be agressive. You can't just sit back and build.
From Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): ha ha ha - settings where you don't even have to garrison cities are hard? Come on!
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): You have to build, explore, expand, and get advances all at once.
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): Why are your cities garrisoned then?

From Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): build expand explore, gee, wish I had a chance to do that in any of these games
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): Tell me something, what's the first thing you build in your city?
From Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): How do you know if my cities are garrisoned or not!!!!!! (oh yeah - you checked the map on your other computer)
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): Actually, I can see 2 of your cities right now.
To Emperor Horsie (1400 B.C.): WOW!! Holy **** are you smart!!
To Emperor Horsie (1350 B.C.): You're going nowhere, you're not even putting me on the defensive.
To Emperor Horsie (1350 B.C.): Maybe you need your apolyton friends to help? Wouldn't that be nice? Think of it. The entire forum vs me? Wouldn't that be fun?
To Emperor Horsie (1350 B.C.): Go make a post. Come on, do it.
From Emperor Horsie (1350 B.C.): Why? do you have a trail of enemies?
To Emperor Horsie (1350 B.C.): I make enemies on purpose. I would rather have enemies than friends. I have a select few friends.
To Emperor Horsie (1350 B.C.): Your lack of conviction and your refusal to make a post on this thus bringing in better judgement simply illustrates your lack of evidence.
From Emperor Horsie (1350 B.C.): Oh give me a break

To Emperor Horsie (1350 B.C.): Then why refuse to do it?
To Emperor Horsie (1350 B.C.): You say you have evidence, prove it.
To Emperor Horsie (1350 B.C.): You said you'd make me "look stupid and a cheater to boot", prove it.
From Emperor Horsie (1300 B.C.): no point, your self-defeating
To Emperor Horsie (1300 B.C.): If that's so, feel free to copy this conversation and use my words against me.
From Emperor Horsie (1300 B.C.): what for?
To Emperor Horsie (1300 B.C.): To prove me a cheater, what else? You said I'm self defeating.
To Emperor Horsie (1300 B.C.): What did you hope to prove by hosting the game yourself? That I am a horrible player if I'm not host thus showing that I cheat as host?
From Emperor Horsie (1300 B.C.): he he he, give it a rest
To Emperor Horsie (1300 B.C.): Let me put it into simple terms even you cna understand. If you don't make a post on it I will. And that will give me an advantage. So it's best you go do it yourself.
From Emperor Horsie (1300 B.C.): no you go ahead if you must
To Emperor Horsie (1300 B.C.): Ok, fine I will.
To Emperor Horsie (1300 B.C.): Unlike you, I'm not bluffing.
From Emperor Horsie (1300 B.C.): mind finishing your turn first?
To Emperor Horsie (1300 B.C.): God damnit. My cities are getting mad now at size 1.
To Emperor Horsie (1300 B.C.): That's real good, disconnect.
To Emperor Horsie (1250 B.C.): I lost a turn I saved before I retired. I'll send you the save.
To Emperor Horsie (950 B.C.): I think maybe I'll just get stealth this game.
From Emperor Horsie (950 B.C.): okay, I concede. Go post your thread.

September 28, 2000, 00:07

Tut, tut, Eyes - this is just an excerpt

Why don't you post the whole conversation, HMMM??????

But it does clearly show my point - you practically begged me to accuse you of cheating, and then you practically begged me to post a thread here about it

So why were you playing me? Even from this excerpt I think it will be clear to most that the games were just a set up. Look at it, post after post from you goading me. But Horse kept his cool

Where is my accusatory diatribe? THERE ISN'T ONE

My only regret is that I wasted 3 mornings of my leave playing you

I think many players will benefit from this however. As one respected player icqed me when we were playing, "why do you bother with him?"

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[This message has been edited by Alexander's Horse (edited September 28, 2000).]

Kaak · September 28, 2000, 00:09

Guys don't argue about settings. It is simple. 2x2x king is player vs. player. Whomever is better will win 9 times out of 10. 1x1x deity is player vs. the game, in a time race to build wonders. Everything else falls somewhere inbetween.

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Kaak
Tribe of the Divine

Pain is just fear leaving the body
To fail to try is the only true failure...

September 28, 2000, 00:12

That's all I could get of the conversation the rest got cut off.

September 28, 2000, 00:14

Kaak, it was the boxing in extremely early in that game that was most sus. I never got out of the blocks. He has one unit and finds me every time? Eyes must be a friggin psychic

Settings, well, that's a whole other story.

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September 28, 2000, 00:25

Who do you think I copied that strategy off of AH? KAAK!!! Dip****, you're talking to someone who is the master of it. You really think kaak is going to say "yeah, you're right eyes is obviously cheating". Get real. And I had units going off in all directions if you bothered to look at the map. I don't just send a group of units in one direction, I send one out in each direction.

September 28, 2000, 00:35

Alexander' 27/09/00 9:36 AM am I in?

EyesOfNigh 27/09/00 9:57 AM 4.16.151.240

EyesOfNigh 27/09/00 10:15 AM If I"m so lucky why do you need a larger map?

Alexander' 27/09/00 10:16 AM okay, play small again

Is there a reason why you cut that out AH? I didn't say "If I"m so lucky why do you need a larger map?" just out of the blue. Why don't you put the whole thing in there.

Kaak · September 28, 2000, 00:54

AH, this is the way it goes. If you hit 2000 BC, and you don't have 20 cities and most of map uncovered, you are running behind. I have played eyes over and over, and either you get the best of him, or he will get the best of you. He doesn't cheat, he doesn't have to. It is a proven strategy that will beat anyone not using it. It is not sleezing, and it is just like real life. Control the map, control the rescources, you win. A growth strategy will never beat an expansionist strategy. If you guys expect to have a prayer in the upcoming tournement, you better start changing something. And don't worry about the settings, it works on 1x1x as it does on 2x2x. It make take us longer to get there, but our guns will be bigger when we do.

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Kaak
Tribe of the Divine

Pain is just fear leaving the body
To fail to try is the only true failure...
[This message has been edited by Kaak (edited September 28, 2000).]

September 28, 2000, 01:07

Ha ha ha ha - I went into Eyes side of the last save and this is what I found on just a quick inspection:

. 30 of his cities immediately went into disorder when his turn started even though he has HG. Looking at them, I don't see how they ever could be in order

. He's built 5 cities on the arctic/ocean border fringe of the map on tundra squares, all of these cities are producing 3 wheat and one shield

Is this all just coincidence or were we using different versions of the rules.txt

If anyone wants to see this, God knows why, I'm happy to send it to you.

Mercantile · September 28, 2000, 01:18

AH are you saying you can modify rules for your civ only?

September 28, 2000, 01:33

All I'm saying is his civ looks weird, it doesn't make sense. Of course I'm sure there's a perfectly rational explanation

But 30 out of 51 cities go into disorder when I open the save??? What's that about???

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September 28, 2000, 01:40

I always build on the artic. And what's wrong with producing 3 wheat? Remember, you hosted most of this game. And did you load it as .sav which would be loaded as 1x1x or did you load it as .net which would be loaded ast 2x2x?
[This message has been edited by Eyes Of Night (edited September 28, 2000).]

Berzerker · September 28, 2000, 01:51

Eyes of Night - will you explain what you are talking about by continent numbers and knowing if you are on an island very early on without having to explore?

UltraSonix · September 28, 2000, 03:20

Holy crap you guys are vicious...

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No, in Australia we don't live with kangaroos and koalas in our backyards... Despite any stupid advertisments you may see to the contrary...

September 28, 2000, 04:00

This thread shows the 'way of the Apolyton brat' alright

And it's not AH!

And, EoN, please answer Berzerker's question, I have no idea about this...??

Also, I still don't know how to use that 'cheat' of finding nearest city?? Don't tell me either. The only 'cheat' that seems to be universally agreed on as an OK thing is incremental rush buying. All else is suss IMHO. I think any feature that allows you to acquire 'free' information about your enemies is really not on. Do the 'expansionists' agree?

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*THE DEITY*
#8388924

Ming · September 28, 2000, 08:12

iadkins... DON'T READ THIS

Using unit location to find enemy cities is not a cheat. It's a feature that has been built into the game and is part of the city screen. It's no more a cheat than looking at the top five cities or demographics.

For all those that want to know about this feature...
Go to the home city screen for a unit that is exploring. (This doesn't work for non units since they don't have a home city) On the left side of the city screen, it shows the units that the city is supporting.
Click on the unit that is exploring. It will give you the coordinates of the unit, and tell you what city it is closest to. If the city mentioned isn't one of yours, just count how close the unit is to your nearest city. Now you know roughly (if you do it every turn) just how far a city is away from unit. If you have two units moving in the same direction, you can use triangulation to pinpoint where the city is.

Again, unit location is a legitimate feature... it was designed into the game so you could find units that are attached to any specific city in case you are having support problems. Would somebody please explain why this is anymore a cheat than looking at the top 5 city screen, demographic screen, or wonders screen.

Carolus Rex · September 28, 2000, 09:56

When you click on a terrain square you see three numbers. Two are the square's location, the third the continent number.

Say you click a terrain square that is not black and the continent number is one. Then you click an ocean square next to it, suppose the number is three. Go on to click all the black squares nearby. If the black land squares (number is one) is surrounded by black squares with continent number three, you're on an island. Not that I would use this in any game, though...

Eyes of Night, when will we continue our duel? It's a fun game (especially the sophisticated chat

) and it can go either way!

Another question for you, I'm curious. Why do you seldom let other players host, especially with such a bad connection? When we played you were disconnected so much (IIRC because "your parents called" and due to "a big thunder storm") that I offered to host. You refused (why?) and the disconnections continued. Very annoying, since it interupts the game so much.

Another Apolyton brat, namely

Carolus

Ming · September 28, 2000, 10:07

One more time...
If you are going to accuse somebody of cheating in these forums, please provide the proof or a link to the proof. Otherwise, it's just slander. If you can't prove it, don't accuse anybody of it here on these forums.

If you think you are being cheated... just save every turn, and go back and look AFTER the game is over. If cheating is occuring, you should be able to spot it, and be able to prove it to others.

Now that the official "line" has been posted again.

I hate it when there are a lot of disconnects.
If it continues, you should just change hosts. It doesn't really matter who hosts... The person with the best connection should host.

Carolus Rex · September 28, 2000, 10:17

Ming, I wasn't accusing Eyes of Night in any way! I don't judge players until I've played with them, and AFAIK there is no funny stuff going on in that game.

But a lot of disconnections is very annoying! Whenever that happens with other players, we always change host. It doesn't matter who hosts when the game is going and nobody ever rejects to changing. But EoN refused and our connection problems persisted. I simply ask him why he doesn't want others to host, since it's no big deal.

No insinuations!

Carolus

My Wife Hates CIV · September 28, 2000, 10:21

AH... just cheat and see how well he does. Just load up the map on another PC and see if his few units head directly for your capital. You'll also be able to see how many/what types of units he starts with.

You wouldnt mind all this would you Eyes?? Seeing how everyone else (myself included) sucks so bad.

This is what I did when I discovered he gave himself extra settlers at the start.

But what gets me about Eyes is how he displays himself to others.

'EyesOfNigh 28/09/00 11:36 AM I had 51 cities and 74 units to your 6 cities and 9 units. God damn you suck. LOL'

why would you even say that? can't you understand how that might make someone feel?? i dunno know... maybe something for you to think about.

Ming · September 28, 2000, 10:30

CR... I wasn't implying you did. But AH did. My message is the standard Apolyton comment on the subject.

MWHC... isn't peaking at the map during a game cheating too

My Wife Hates CIV · September 28, 2000, 10:37

of course, duh. but how else can one see if someone is cheating. we're not all civ gods like eyes. it was enough to get him to admit he added units.
[This message has been edited by My Wife Hates CIV (edited September 28, 2000).]

arii · September 28, 2000, 13:11

2* 2* king small map is a completely diferent game. Everything is different: what should be your first tech, were should be your 1st city, what should you produce 1st. It takes a lot of practice with those settings to be able to challenge eyes or kaak since they practice 10* a week on them.
With player that have simillar abilities, the game is decided by the starting location (corner of the land mass vs middle of the land mass or ressources available near the starting location)or the result of the first 3 hutts. Otherwise who ever goes for horseriding, tips most hutts, get most tribes and crank out most settlers.
Advantages to being the host: starting techs, often better starting location. You can also move your units faster and give the opposition little time to react (he might not even be able to see the unit if you are moving very fast and he is not closely looking). Perfect example: explorer has 6 moves regarless of terrain. You can move them very quickly before the opponent has time to build a unit to protect his city and take undefended cities. Of course you want to host!!

Ming · September 28, 2000, 13:56

You have to be kidding...
You mean people actually play games where the host gets to keep any sciences they get??????
Now that's fair

I wouldn't play unless I was the host under those circumstances.

When we play, we keep resetting until the host didn't get any sciences... that's the only FAIR way to do it!

Carolus Rex · September 28, 2000, 14:00

Yes, I know that but, uh..., I don't follow the explorer example.

If the city is undefended when someone else is moving there's nothing the non-host can do about it. The city will fall no matter what (if he sees the unit or not).

Or do you mean that non-host can miss when explorer is nearby and can reach you next turn so he doesn't build a unit? That is equally true with single move, although less likely to happen.

Ignoring my confusion above, those are pathetic reasons to claim you're the better player. What's lag and other host advantages got to do with skill? True, in a competition everything counts but unfair external conditions are often tried to be evenly distributed in the real world of sports. Teams/players switch sides etc.

As in most sports, different players/athletes/teams have different skills. Some tennis players are better than others on grass, but get wipped by the same player they crushed in Wimbledon when they play in Paris (except for Björn Borg, of course!

). Nothing strange about that.

But I don't respect anyone, no matter what we're talking about, that claims to be the best and then refuses to play certain settings or against certain players or whatever.

That's not a man true to himself.

End of sermon.

Carolus

September 28, 2000, 14:23

"This is what I did when I discovered he gave himself extra settlers at the start."

Really MWHC? I don't seem to remember this. I don't ever remember cheating you, and I certainly don't ever remember admitting to cheating you. If I remember right you played me 1 duel and got your ass kicked much like AH with the same reaction.

Carolus, the reason was because if I got disconnected with you hosting I would have to restart my comptuer. Normally I would just hit ctrl+alt+del to get out of the game but both my alt buttons were broken. They're fixed now though. And who the hell do you think hosts every ****ing time when I play with kaak? He does and I've won the past 6 times. You know the hut trick only works when you're not the host right? So you should be wanting me to host rather than me not hosting, unless of course you trust me so much. hehehee By the way, I do restart when I get tech and settlers. That's the only way the players on gameleague will play. Maybe you people should leave your inner circle and play other places for once. You're very ignorant.