The way of the apolyton brat

[Civfan]

lol....your kidding right, this is to funny....Eyes you need a good butt kicking...You've been on the throne to long....I've offered but you've only declined... Soon enough I'll knock you down... Crush you and your puny record..

The time has come for new blood, out with the old....

[Berzerker]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Eyes hosted 5 games in a row and never declared a start tech - must be a new record
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

That is amazing, it seems we are much more likely to need 5 restarts to get rid of host techs than to have 5 clean starts in a row.

Carolus Rex, EoN - I still dont understand that continent number check, can either of you explain it once more

Ming, that deal about using unit location to "find" other cities sure sounds like a cheat to me. Its just like clicking on black squares to determine land and sea, but more advantageous since it allows discovering opponents. But I am learning why I'm just a mediocre player, I'm not willing to spend the hours to discover all these tricks or read about them in "strategy" threads, and I dont even want to use them in games.
Are there people here who just play without using tricks?

[Crustacian]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Berzerker on 09-30-2000 04:05 AM</font>
But I am learning why I'm just a mediocre player, I'm not willing to spend the hours to discover all these tricks or read about them in "strategy" threads, and I dont even want to use them in games.
Are there people here who just play without using tricks?
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Berserker, I empathise with this thought, and am one who enjoys best to play without the tricks. The actual exploration and stuff is fun for me. I don't even like other players knowing each others govt type early in the game on chat.

Ming, you mentioned: "Again, unit location is a legitimate feature... it was designed into the game so you could find units that are attached to any specific city in case you are having support problems. Would somebody please explain why this is anymore a cheat than looking at the top 5 city screen, demographic screen, or wonders screen."

I see it differantly even tho agreeing it was built into the game, I would have it only work on known cities. The manuel on one version once said something to the effect that early in the game cities with wonders would be renound in the world and some info about them would travel afar, but still ...
It is speculation but I don't think it was intended in the game for units to give away the location of cities they had not contacted yet. Unless they reasoned that local villagers or whatever had rumers that turned them onto it...but then the city might as well become visable in the black unexplored world too while they are at it.
*It would be nice to see this feature ONLY work on KNOWN cities.

Why is emographic info known before you discover the civ you have the info on!! True you get more on demographics with an embassy, but it seems a bit inconsistant that you can have demographic info on a civ you don't even know exists yet.


I would not have added my 2 cents regarding Eyes if he was not such a name caller of many people he is really in ignorance of. Though it may be ridiculous for me to waste any time with someone who talks like that, he is a good player, and I am sure he has a valuable contribution to make in the civ world, whether you are of Game League, Apolyton, the Zone, the folks who are content with only playing single player or hot seat, or whoever. Maybe I am just naive to think he would bring out his points in a more reasonable non threatening manor. But then maybe it is his priviledge to bring them out however he wants. If that is so then I have no qualms about saying what I think about it for whatever its worth.

[suas333]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Berzerker on 09-30-2000 04:05 AM</font>

Ming, that deal about using unit location to "find" other cities sure sounds like a cheat to me. Its just like clicking on black squares to determine land and sea, but more advantageous since it allows discovering opponents. But I am learning why I'm just a mediocre player, I'm not willing to spend the hours to discover all these tricks or read about them in "strategy" threads, and I dont even want to use them in games.
Are there people here who just play without using tricks?
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>


While i agree with you that it might be a cheat, The league says its legal so you can't get angry when its used on you during a league game.

Ming, isn't that considered a cheat in most of apolyton?

[rah]

No, the only time that Ming ever thought it was a cheat was when Xin started usuing it and Ming didn't know about it. He assumed MWHC and Xin were doing the peaking at the map with another computer trick. That wasn't the case, hahahahahaha.

In most of the games that we play with Apolyton people, it is not considered a cheat. In fact, I've never heard anyone request that no one does it in a game that i'm in. Probably since the people that we started playing with when MP first came out, started using it quite quickly.

RAH
Sorry, Ming, but I always liked that story, you were so pissed, it was funny. And it was the same game where Xin named all of his cities BOSTON since that was your closest city. I was in tears laughing. The first few times were so much fun.

[Simpson II]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Ming on 09-28-2000 08:12 AM</font>
Again, unit location is a legitimate feature... it was designed into the game so you could find units that are attached to any specific city in case you are having support problems. Would somebody please explain why this is anymore a cheat than looking at the top 5 city screen, demographic screen, or wonders screen.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

ROTFL!! Certainly unit location is a legitimate feature.. However, the field that gives you the closest city to the unit was surely put there so that you could find the unit, not the city!
Game cheats occur when the designers make an oversight, and this is IMHO certainly in that class. I can see the reason for making it legal and even acceptable - an undetectable cheat can't really be regulated against - but I don't think that not getting caught makes a cheat 'legitimate.'
The most damning thing, though, is that it would ruin the game's balance. A builder strategy depends on a momentum player not finding them for a while.. no way will that happen if a player does this. The fog of war is there for a reason!

What has amused me about this thread is the way people have reached the top of the GameLeague. By mastering all the ways of playing Civ and learning the judgement to pick the right method? Nah. Insist on totally unbalanced settings where only one strategy works - 2x2x small map king, 2x1x no huts, whatever. Then practise those settings until you can play them in your sleep.

By the way, EoN, when are you going to beat Pinball in the League? It looks bad for the GameLeague no. 1 if he has been beaten in every game he's played against the no. 2

[Mercantile]

of all the games i have played online, and its not many, i would never leave my cities undefended for very long. How is this strategy, if an explorer can take three or four undefended cities in one turn. I have played enough civ to try and duplicate the reproduciton levels mentioned here, and i come up horrible short. If i struggle at Apolyton, there is no point in my even trying gameleague. Thats a real shame.

Actually first game I played pinball he got 4 or 5 cities to my 1. I came back and was slightly ahead and I didn't feel like taking forever to win the game so I made a deal like I usually do. I'd give him this game in agreement that he'd play me double or nothing. I had no ****ing idea the little ***** would get 6 cities to my 1 the next game and took my capital in 3500BC. He is the luckiest mother ****er I have ever seen in my life. He does it in almost every single game. Third game I played him we both got average starts. I ended up kicking the **** out of him, he was nothing. Pinball has to have an incredible start to even stay in the game. Besides, he won't be number 2 for very long because he has games with people he's losing right now.

And to tell you the truth I really don't care anymore. I've been to number 1 so many times it's like a habit and I'm getting really tired of it. I'm wasting my life on here in forums and on a stupid computer game when I can be out getting drunk and getting laid. My life went much better I think when I didn't come on and play this stupid game. This game has gotten very old, I've played it 9 years and I don't really find any challenge in it. It's the only game I've ever really played before and to tell you the truth I really don't like computer games that much. I've already requested Kwang to reset my points to 1000 and to put up a headline that I'm retiring by my own will, not being removed for cheating as everyone will think. It's time for a change. I'm going to say I'm retiring for 6 months, but I'm really hoping I'll have enough discipline to stay off it forever. I'll still play tribe games to assauge my addiction which is why I'm not having him remove me completely. I'm no longer going to reply to this post and hopefully I'll be able to keep myself off the gameleague forums. So squabble amongst yourselves.

I just noticed another thing about my save of the game with Eyes - when I click on his cities (playing my side) it doesn't tell me what trade they want?????

WTF is that about? My saves of other games do it, I double checked.

[suas333]

you probably never researched trade yet. Especially since Eyes' games are usually decided in the early years.

Oh yeah

[Moker Guy]

ok i know this is kinda old but you want to know the reason why eyes always wants to host? its because he has a modified rules.txt..........dont beleive that crap about his keyboard......and that crap about him having to restart. his rules.txt is modified so there is less disorder for the amount of cities, and less disorder for the lvl at which he is playing. just go check out your rules.txt you will see what i mean. oh and kaak can host because he has the same modifications. the thing about it is that it isnt cheating beacause who ever is playing the game gets the same advantages.

Super Sayen Moker
Leader of the Sayen Tribe

hehe EXPOSED

ps i didnt see the post you wrote about this AH you hit it right on the nose.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Moker Guy (edited October 01, 2000).]</font>

[Matthew]

I don't see what the big deal is about settings. Yes, gameleague does seem to be a league of 2x2x King players. Being #1 there means being the best at those settings only. So what? It's still an accomplishment. You really can't demean the accomplishment unless you can outdo it yourself.There are no best settings. There are just some people who preer some settings, and others who prefer others. I personally prefer Deity, at least 4 players, and either 1x1x or 2x1x, restless tribes, and at least a 50x60 world. But I don't thinkk as others as bad players or bad people just because theydisagree with me on this. I only think of people as being bad if they disagree with me on who should be president, or i they don't think that the Federal Government should spend $200 Billion a year on physics research.

It's unfortunate that one mistake by a great player can bring any victory he gains under suspicion. But such is life, and it is a lesson far better learned here than in real life.

Thanks Moker!!
Finally I understand what's happening here.
So, the host can modify the Rules.txt, which affects all players. But because the other players DON'T KNOW they may not be taking advantage of it. Their playing decisions may be based on the assumption of std rules; ie keeping more units at home than they need to etc etc...
So, it IS cheating because there is a lack of common knowlegde from the outset of the game!
Yes, EXPOSED indeed....

------------------
*THE DEITY*
#8388924

Thanks Moker!!
Finally I understand what's happening here.
So, the host can modify the Rules.txt, which affects all players. But because the other players DON'T KNOW they may not be taking advantage of it. Their playing decisions may be based on the assumption of std rules; ie keeping more units at home than they need to etc etc...
So, it IS cheating because there is a lack of common knowlegde from the outset of the game!
Yes, EXPOSED indeed....

------------------
*THE DEITY*
#8388924

[suas333]

Eyes, is your rules.txt really changed like this? Do you admit to it? Thats pretty unfair.

[suas333]

I just checked the rankings and i don't see you on there anymore eyes. Whats the reason this time, did you remove yourself again?

[Rasputin]

AH I want to see that saved game.!!! You have never answered whether you opened it in 2X2X or just single .. Thqat makes a big differnce, before people continue to point fingure at EoN this needs to be clarified

My riot factor is set a little higher. It had no effect in the game with AH because he hosted basically the entire time. So what exactly does riot factor do? Basically it keeps me from having to click on my cities 20 times a turn. I figure I save an hour between me and my opponent clicking. What does this do to gameplay? Instead of having 65+ cities by 1000BC, I'll hvae probably more like 55+. Won't this effect how fast I get techs and how much money I make? No, not really. Even with the riot factor on I get leadership around 1000BC, with riot factor turned off I get it around 1300BC. As you can see it doesn't make a huge difference in my game. I still get 3 turn techs with tons of money. In a duel where we both have lots of cities it's a huge time saver. Obviously it has no effect really on my gameplay if I beat AH with him hosting and tons of others.

Oh, and just to clarify what riot factor is...riot factor makes your cities get unhappy a little bit earlier with the more cities you get. Easily countered by building pikemen and getting HG like I did against AH. So if I have 20 cities and they're all getting made at size 4, the next couple of cities I build will make a few of my older cities get mad at size 3. Doesn't do a whole hell of alot.

And to answer your question Suas I retired from gameleague. I was getting tired of it. And one more thing, are you loading the save that you have which is the on where I lost the turn? Because on that one the AI has moved a pikeman out of each of my cities. Not only that, it was 28 out of thet 65 I counted that went into disorder. I put mine all the way down to 14, which is either hte original one or a little lower. Out of that 28 7 would have gone into disorder because they had grown 1 city size. So that leaves 21 to attribute to the riot factor. Out of that 21 only 1 required more than 1 entertainer. We're not talking earth shattering effects here. What did this leave me at once I got my cities under order? 60 gold and 4 techs turns. I could probably make that 80 gold and 3 tech turns if I decided to fine tune my cities. Like I said, it doesn't have a whole lot of effect.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Eyes Of Night (edited October 02, 2000).]</font>

OK, just opened this save as Eyes and about half cities went into disorder. It automatically opened as a saved 2x2x game, so no worries there Raz.
For me to bring those cities into order it required most cities to lose one square to an entertainer without changing tax rates. Hence reduced production... reduced science etc... The AI had not moved any units in this save.

From this and Eye's above posts it appears to me that Eyes has admitted to and is cheating. If AH had known the riot factor had changed he could have expanded more quickly!
I'd be interested in Ming's thoughts on this???
And is Kaak a cheat too?
This is definitely cheating

------------------
*THE DEITY*
#8388924


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by iadkins (edited October 02, 2000).]</font>

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>&lt;font size=1&gt;Originally posted by Eyes Of Night on 10-02-2000 12:14 AM&lt;/font&gt;
.....it was 28 out of thet 65 I counted that went into disorder. I put mine all the way down to 14, which is either hte original one or a little lower. Out of that 28 7 would have gone into disorder because they had grown 1 city size. So that leaves 21 to attribute to the riot factor. Out of that 21 only 1 required more than 1 entertainer. We're not talking earth shattering effects here...... &lt;font size=1 face=Arial color=444444&gt;[This message has been edited by Eyes Of Night (edited October 02, 2000).]&lt;/font&gt;
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Well, I just opened it up on the home network now and looked at Eye's civ BEFORE the turn..... 28 cities are RED! DIS-ORDER before pop growth.
So 28 entertainers are needed to cheer up the unhappy evil bastards under the leadership of Lies of the Night.... 28 production squares lost.... OR, 28 more units required to maintain order in those cities!

When you track that back thru the turns of the game and add all the turns that are yet to come this adds up to a considerable advantage!!!!

Under despotism the riot factor kicks in after you build 6 cities at Deity level (King level?) - this is when the advantage started, way back then in the game...... He's under Monarchy now in 950BC with 51 cities.... Do the maths....


------------------
*THE DEITY*
#8388924


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by iadkins (edited October 02, 2000).]</font>

[Mercantile]

Has Apolyton been duped by cetain players
You know what, i have hardly played online with this game, and this is my first game forum as well, but WTF????? Please anyone, i don't care how many, if you are serious about playing and your not going to cheat or use tricks, then please icq me @ 91586997

All of you cheaters out there, you all must suffer from small penis syndrome

Oh and i am no superstar at this game. I often mismanage any great start into defeat

what is this riot factor? can you edit your game so your cities wont revolt so quickly?

[finbar]

Yes. You can edit your rules.txt to achieve anything you want. Riot factor, basically, is the number of cities you can build (under a system of Government) before the next city built contains an unhappy citizen.

------------------
finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

LOL, Eyes is SPRUNG SPRUNG SPRUNG!!!!!

And I didn't "host" for most of the game Eyes, you know that.

Will Gameleague allow to keep all those points he has accumulated????? The number 1 player??????

------------------
Don't worry, I won't tell anyone. Your secret is safe with me.

http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum19/HTML/002208-2.html?71#71

[Carolus Rex]

I guess we know now why you retired voluntarily from Game League. Knowing this was coming out, you would have been kicked out anyway. Better then to do it in a "clean" way? Withdrawing because the game is "getting old" and "nobody can beat me anyway"...

'tis a sad ending to our game.

Carolus

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited October 02, 2000).]</font>

Actually AH I had 9 cities when you started hosting. By the time I started hosting again I had 56 or more cities. I have the chat dialogue and can prove it. we played probably 4 turns at most where the riot factor came into play. Don't try to deny it because it's posted in the ICQ and civ chat dialogue. YOu hosted 90% of this game and virtually any advantage I got from riot factor came in those last 9 cities I built which would have left me at 56 which is still 10 times as many as you had. Nice try. Fact of the matter is you had 6 cities the entire game and got boxed in, had nothing to do with the riot factor. YOu can blame it on everything you want.

What did this leave me at once I got my cities under order? 60 gold and 4 techs turns. I could probably make that 80 gold and 3 tech turns if I decided to fine tune my cities. Like I said, it doesn't have a whole lot of effect.
Did that just go in one ear and out the other? Check it yourself, my science wasn't affected and my tax probably lost maybe 10 gold a turn at the very very most. NOt to mention the fact that AH hosted the entire part of the game where the riot factor came into play, it's quite provable by the ICQ and civchat dialogue.

"When you track that back thru the turns of the game and add all the turns that are yet to come this adds up to a considerable advantage!!!!"

Again, how many times do I have to say it? The riot factor wasn't in play at this point!!!


&lt;font size=1 face=Arial color=444444&gt;[This message has been edited by Eyes Of Night (edited October 02, 2000).]&lt;/font&gt;
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Eyes Of Night (edited October 02, 2000).]</font>

[Carolus Rex]

If the riot factor is not important, then why modify the rules text? Why denying others to host and avoid playing by the original rules text? If riot factor is no big deal it shouldn't matter to you.

Maybe you rightfully are number one in the League, maybe all those wins were clean. But how can you deny that this particular game was biased in your favour?

Carolus

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited October 02, 2000).]</font>