Nominated Players Tourney, Round 4 (MP)

finbar · August 20, 2000, 21:02

On the whole, because I can play during my daytime, I'm more compatible with US than European timezones. And my problem last time was trying to accommodate both sets of timezones. 'Twas impossible.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

Mark_Everson · August 20, 2000, 21:39

Cavebear: Thanks for your continued excellent execution of a mostly thankless job!

All:

I have an admittedly partial opinion on organizing games using score vs. keeping people playing different opponents. I have to go with variety of opponents (and obviously scheduling possibility) over score. This is because I think the original scoring system was somewhat questionable anyway as I discussed with Cavebear 3/4 of the way down http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/HT...tml?date=11:38 . Another obvious defect of the system that I've Had to notice

is that as constructed it is almost mathematically impossible for someone to win the tourney after a loss in a duel. No Matter Who they beat after that loss. Whereas someone who loses in a MP game (but in neither duel) can easily still win. Obviously if Nappy can win every game he plays against a variey of opponents there is no real issue, at least within the context of a 4-game tourney...

So IMO variety of opponents should take precedence. The score should only be used to break ties.

I have one other idea I'd like to throw out for the group (would have to be by unanimous consent to change the original outline). That is to add one more game to the schedule, using the new scoring system. This would 1) Partially mitigate the problem of the two duels having IMO too much importance; 2) allow people to play a larger variety of opponents; and 3) also lead to a little better statistics in determining the winner.

Selfishly Yours

,

Mark

markusf · August 20, 2000, 21:50

The problem is all the highscoring players are in NA PST time or PST + 1, that makes it nearly impossible to play with Europe or Australia.
besides both me and arii want to beat up on nappy for that fluke of a win...

cavebear · August 21, 2000, 00:57

I'm trying to set upi the Final round in accordance with the 2 primary guidelines stated at the beginning of the Tourney: Highest scores compete, and players should not play the same opponents sequentially.

I find I cannot apply both to the last round. Worse, players are rather well spread out globally, which led to difficulties in the previous round initial groupings. What to do...?

Every way I look at groupings, I either get the same basic ones as round 3 or I get games on 3 continents.

The scoring system has become a problem as well. I erred in arranging the MP scoring for 1st, 2nd, etc to be so close. As such, it encourages either extremely conservative play (to protect a score) or desperate play (as the only possibility of changing overall position).

First, are any of the Tourney players reasonably able to play with a group on another continent? That would help greatly (and Markus, which one *are* you on, anyway).

Second, I propose the following change for the Final round. If 3-player games, points of 4, 2, 0; if 4-player games, points of 6, 4, 2, 0.

Thoughts?

Meanwhile, I'll be making maps. The Final round will be on normal (medium) map, archipelagos, roving bands. Age and climate are irrelevent, since I will be constructing them from scratch.

Lastly, I have the following players still active. If I have removed someone in error, or have left some one in who has withdrawn, please let me know.

NAPPY 12
MARKUS 11
ARITEA 10
MARK E 8
SMARTFART 8
CARNIDE 7
DEITY 6
FINBAR 3
CAPTVK 2

carnide_ · August 22, 2000, 03:28

Hi.
If scheduled a few days before, I can manage to play at any time. So, plz, count me in for any time zone.

Regards
PS: Thx Cavebear for the excellent work!

SmartFart · August 22, 2000, 06:20

I am currently on vacation. Next week i'll be free to play on any proposed time.
As Mark already pointed out,duels are a little bit overscored,but I don't care much about it. This tournament is excellent idea because we actually finishing our games

I really wanna #2 tournament to start as soon as this one is finished. Perhaps even a season?
How about skip duels in next one? I don't having fun playing them and fun is the only reason for playing this game,right?
However...I agree with majority.

Take care.

SF

finbar · August 22, 2000, 10:19

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by SmartFart on 08-22-2000 06:20 AM</font>

I really wanna #2 tournament to start as soon as this one is finished. Perhaps even a season?
How about skip duels in next one? I don't having fun playing them and fun is the only reason for playing this game,right?
However...I agree with majority.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Agree with all of the above.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

finbar · August 22, 2000, 10:23

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by markusf on 08-20-2000 09:50 PM</font>
The problem is all the highscoring players are in NA PST time or PST + 1, that makes it nearly impossible to play with Europe or Australia.
besides both me and arii want to beat up on nappy for that fluke of a win...
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Australia isn't a problem fitting in with NA PST. At least not for me because I can play during our daytime. Your 8pm PST, for example, is my 1pm next day. Though I quite understand you wanting to beat up on nappy.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

August 23, 2000, 00:48

Deity 6 points, finbar 3

Nap Bonaparte · August 23, 2000, 01:47

My name keeps popping up on this thread so perhaps it is time for me to respond. Cavebear-thanx for all your efforts in organizing this tournament and constructing the maps. I am concerned, however, about the prospect of continuing this tournament on into the 4th round. The tournament has now stretched from April to August and only 9 of the original 16 players remain. The 3rd round alone went from May to August and during that time many excellent players had to drop out or concede due to time limitations including Jedi, Crusty,Curumbor,and Deity. In fact, the 3rd round went on so long that I passed my 1 year Apolyton anniversary and had to register under a new name(and become a settler again). The idea behind the MP 3rd round was great....basically all players were on their own trying for a win. However, in a 4th round MP game, the players will gang up on whoever is the points leader in their particular game (ie a 2 on 1 duel)rendering the results of the 4th round relatively meaningless when compared to the 3rd round. To give you an example, assume Markus, Arii and myself play a 4th round game. As stated several times in this thread, Markus and Arii want to beat on me to make up for our "fluke of a game".With the new scoring system you propose, whoever wins between them finishes 1st and the runnerup would finish 2nd overall(with only 2 wins) and everyone else would be mathematically eliminated from the top 2 positions even though potentially 3 other players could have 3 wins. I agree with Mark that scoring should be based on wins with points used as a tie-breaker. I further agree with Mark that the next round should be a duel(or maybe even 2 rounds) as I would rather get whupped 1 on 1 than the forgone conclusion of 2 on 1. If you do decide to make the 4th round MP, I have a few suggestions. First, the scoring system in rounds 3 and 4 should be the same. Second, the points leaders should be dispersed into 3 different games(then EVERYONE can gang up on the leaders). Perhaps you can have the points leaders host the game(the host tech advantage might help equal things out). As for myself, I would be willing to play the Aussies.....my best times for playing Civ are after 6:30 pm PDT on Mon.,Tues, Wed. and that seems to fit with Finbar's schedule. The main reason I entered this tournament was the opportunity to play people I had never faced before. Oh .....if my opponents from the 3rd round think that our game was a fluke, I'd like to remind them that I have our rematch from June stored on my hard drive and am willing to resume when they are ready....

finbar · August 23, 2000, 09:14

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Alexander's Horse on 08-23-2000 12:48 AM</font>
Deity 6 points, finbar 3

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Yeah, bummer, huh?

I'm available all (U.S) nights except Tuesday and Thursday. Tuesday night is a long-running game with arii, Markus, Crusty and Deity, which is now waiting for Deity to become available again. The poor guy hasn't been able to play for about 3 weeks now.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by finbar (edited August 23, 2000).]</font>

arii · August 23, 2000, 13:18

Nappy: 2 civ conspiring against the top civ will always happen in MP. To a certain extent you and markus were conspiring against me since I was starting to build a good lead in that tourney game.
Markus is just teasing you, and the unfinished game is the 3d game and not the rematch. Sorry to not have been able to continue this game. We have a regular game on tues night which makes it difficult with your monday-wed only playing time.

I feel that large games are just too hard to finish and the outcome is often decided by the alliances and treachery rather than the skill of the individual player.
I'm perfectly happy with the duels, it's fast, exiting, a lot easier to shedule.

Arii

cavebear · August 23, 2000, 19:47

Thank you everyone for the excellent and thoughtful comments! I've learned quite a lot about multiple-player scheduling and the difficulties that time zones can create. It is almost cruel that the 3 major Civ-playing centers (US, Oz, and W Europe) are so nearly equidistant!

My guideline of "nearest-scores play, and simultaneously, no duplications" has taken a contorted journey in this tourney. Still, the prime rule is that variety of opponents is most important. Several people have pointed out that they considered that a major attraction of this tourney, and I thank them for pointing that out. I also thank the players who have inticated some compatibility with other time zones (as well as those who have indicated difficulties in that).

So, I propose the following matches:

Game A
Nappy ----- GMT -8
Deity ----- GMT +10
Carnide --- GMT +0

Game B
Aritea ---- GMT -6
SmartFart - GMT +1
CapTVK ---- GMT +1

Game C
Markus ---- GMT -8
Mark E ---- GMT -5
Finbar ---- GMT +10

Please look at the time zones carefully, and consider that some of the players in different ones have indicated that some apparently odd times might well suit their individual schedules. Also, please remember that crossing the Date Line makes some zones seem less compatible than they really are.

The 3 highest-scoring players have had their match, and the results are in for this tourney. There will be other opportunities for rematches in the future. The proposed groupings offer different opponents in potentially workable combinations, divide the 3 leaders into separate games, and reduce the ability of close competitors to arrange in-game alliances based on current standings.

The scoring will remain as it was for Round 3. I shouldn't have suggested a change in an ongoing tourney.

In considering the workability of the proposed groupings, please discuss possible playing times with an open mind. This is the last round, and if we make it through this, we will all have managed to do something that I don't think has been accomplished before.

finbar · August 23, 2000, 19:59

As I said earlier, I don't have a problem with any of the American timezones, so Markus and MarkE are fine by me. Any (U.S) nights except Tuesday and Thursday, fellas.

Timezonewise, no probs. Skillswise, I'll just go away and quietly crap myself.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

cavebear · August 25, 2000, 20:26

What, no comments other than Finbar's concerning the proposed groupings? Shall I take silence for assent?

I have the maps finished: Archipelegos, Medium map, restless tribes, deity, no AI, 1x1x...

I'll need to know who will be the host for each game so that I can email the maps.

Nap Bonaparte · August 25, 2000, 20:52

Cavebear....groupings and settings sound fine. Carnide sounds as if he is very flexible timewise....but I havent seen a post from Deity in a while. I'll volunteer to host our match. Thanx again for all your efforts!

finbar · August 25, 2000, 21:22

cavebear - Markus and MarkE and I have started negotiating playing times.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

cavebear · August 26, 2000, 01:02

Great!

cavebear · August 26, 2000, 22:01

Game C is underway. Players in the other 2 games, please let me know if there is a workable schedule for your group, and if so, who will host so that I can email them the game map.

If adjustments are required, we will want to make them quickly.

finbar · August 26, 2000, 22:04

Markus and MarkE - as I just posted, I'm online but my ICQ won't connect. Contact me somehow? Please?

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

August 27, 2000, 06:58

Nappy, I spoke to carnide...
the most sensible time would be your Fri night, which is carnide's Sat morning and my Sat afternoon.
Is this OK? Say, 2100 USA Nappy time? Is this too early carnide?

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*THE DEITY*
#8388924

CapTVK · August 27, 2000, 07:26

Aritea, SF

Well, I can play the coming week at 20:00- 24:00 CET the coming week. But only for that week, for the rest my available playing times will be all on the weekend.

Time to prepare for the final lap...

SmartFart · August 27, 2000, 08:52

I can play any time.

Nap Bonaparte · August 27, 2000, 16:32

Deity.....9 pm PDT Friday is fine......I can probably stay up for at least 4-5 hours. Im also available Mon evening after 7pm. Who wants to host?

finbar · August 27, 2000, 21:09

cavebear - MarkE and Markus and I are having trouble with the map. Markus, hosting, is getting bonus techs whichever civ he chooses. Any ideas?

Edit: In the meantime, Markus is saving it as a scenario and editing out his start techs.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by finbar (edited August 27, 2000).]</font>

cavebear · August 28, 2000, 07:41

I won't be able to look at the map until I get home this evening. However, it appears you have gotten around the host-tech problem (good work).

SmartFart · August 28, 2000, 16:49

I think we have a problem here.
CapTVK cannot play nights.
20.00-24.00 CET = 14.00-18.00 EST.
You're PST,right? If so,our problem is fat one.
I will let you guys to schedule our game. Since i have 2 weeks off,i can play any proposed time.
Keep me informed.

SF

cavebear · August 28, 2000, 19:50

I tested the map I sent Markus. Trying the Americans, I got only 3 non-bonus-tech starts in 20 tries. However, with the Egyptians, I got 5 for 5 non-bonus-tech starts. I guess it depends on luck.

I say "luck" because I ran a test on a different map trying all the 1st-column civs and got wildly ranging results. For general interest, my results for host-techs were:

Rom 3, 7, 3
Bab 6, 6, 6
Ger 6, 3, 3
Egy 3, 3, 6
Grk 6, 6, 3
Ind 8, 3, 6

Curious about the 2 civs that gave 2 of 3 clean starts, I ran another series:

Ger 3, 6, 6, 3, 3
Egy 6, 3, 3, 3, 3

Starting position seems to have little to do with the techs given; the same spot and resources give a variety of techs on different tries.

markusf · August 28, 2000, 20:47

cavebear i had the same number of starting techs as long as the other players picked the same starting positions. If you get techs it means the other players are close to you.

arii · August 29, 2000, 00:42

capTV smartfart I can play tonight and probably tomorrow night and friday night. I am pretty flexible this week. I will check icq regularly tonight to see if you guys are online.