Clash of the Titans...

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex on 09-01-2000 10:59 AM A somewhat daring move IMHO, interesting to see what comes out of it! [This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited September 01, 2000).]

Curses!! Foiled again!!

You were referring to your f2-f4 move, correct? At first glance, "daring" came to mind. At second glance, "!" came to mind. You wouldn't be running Big Blue in the background, would you?

BTW. What's the weather like there in Sweden? Here in KC, it's going to be 103 today, 107 tomorrow, and it's been over 100 for about 11 days in a row. I'm dyin' when I go outside and when I come inside, I find "daring" moves I have to deal with. AARRGGHH!!

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex on 09-01-2000 12:23 PM The weather this summer has been a complete disaster! In fact, it's been so bad we didn't have a summer... Right now it's about 15-17 C over here, don't know how that translates into Fahrenheit (and I'm too lazy to look it up ). I guess over 100 F is like over 40 C? Way too much for me too... But I thought you Kansas City cowboys liked it hot, just like in the old days? Carolus [This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited September 01, 2000).]

Let me see if I remember this correctly.

((15 C) x 9/5) + 32 = 69 F (Hope no smilies pop out of this)

((104 F - 32) x 5/9 = 40 C (I'm impressed with your guess!)

BTW. These temperatures are accompanied by humidities of around 70 percent. Do they have saunas in Sweden? That's what we live in here in Kansas City.

And "cowboys"??? I'm a city slicker myself. Born and bred right here in Metropolis. I rode a horse once at church camp and had a garden once in my backyard. But, "cowboy"? Not a chance! I'm too hooked on cable TV, air conditioning, and Baskin Robbins' ice cream!

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Smash]

This is getting pretty good.I like both positions now .


Ken..I found a little shareware chess program at download.com.Gotta pay some money to get the main part but the freeware is perfect for for following a game and trying different combinations.

[Carolus Rex]

quote: Originally posted by kcbob on 09-01-2000 11:26 AM BTW. What's the weather like there in Sweden? Here in KC, it's going to be 103 today, 107 tomorrow, and it's been over 100 for about 11 days in a row.

The weather this summer has been a complete disaster! In fact, it's been so bad we didn't have a summer...

Only sun I've seen is when I spent a week in Oslo, which was great. Beautiful city, I love it!

Right now it's about 15-17 C over here, don't know how that translates into Fahrenheit (and I'm too lazy to look it up ).

I guess over 100 F is like over 40 C? Way too much for me too... But I thought you Kansas City cowboys liked it hot, just like in the old days?

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited September 01, 2000).]

[Ken Hinds]

Smash, I loaded the game through move 12 (as far as I had this thread printed)into Chessmaster 4000, a Bonus Software package that I received for with another purchase. Don't use it much for actual play, rather for review and analysis.

At this point to be fair to our two players I need to warn them that the end of this post contains my analysis of Move 8. This is in no way a judgement of anything on my part, I'm not even close to be qualified to give one, rather it is a difference in styles. Everyone has their style and it even changes depending upon the game situation. If either player feels that this could unduely influence the balance of their game then please stop reading before that point. This post is not an attempt to mess with anyone or change the way the game is going.

I normally play a fairly non-agressive and conservative game for the first half, about move 16 or so. When I do chose to be the early agressor I usually play the Barbarian on their doorstep, pillaging and raising havoc where possible and then leaving or selling myself dearly if there is no safe escape.

Carolus seems to be much more agressive than I would have been for moves 1-4. But, I found it somewhat surprising that at move 8 he backed off from that stance. Given the early aggression at that point I would have pressed the issue. I probably would have arrived at the same basic situation as Carolus had after move 12, but would have gotten there a few moves earlier and at a higher cost to kcbob.

My prefered line of pressing the attack starting at move 8.
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White Black Comments
8. Qd4-e5+ This forces Black to interpose or move. Black has 3 choices at this point.

8a. Qd4-e5+ Qd8-e7
9. Qe5xe7+ Ke8xe7 Now we find out how well black does without a Queen and no chance of castling. I know that I can usually hold my own after an early queen exchange if there has been no significant developement by the opponent.

8b. Qd4-e5+ Bc4-e7
9. Bc1-g5 If Black moves the knight at f6 he leaves the bishop in a double pin (to K by my Q or to Q by my B so that brings us to:

8b. Qd4-e5+ Bc4-e7
9a. Bc1-g5 Nf6-g4
10 Qe5-d5 This threatens Qd5xf7 mate and forks the rook at a8. Only one situation can be salvaged. On the other hand if Nf6xe4 with have this.

8b. Qd4-e5+ Bc4-e7
9b. Bc1-g5 Nf6xe4
10. Qe5xe4 Black's bishop cannot take my unguarded bishop because of the pin against the King.

And as I said before if the queen could not be safely extracted then kill all that you can before losing it. In any event this would have significantly changed the game for Black. It might not be a loss, but it would be very unpleasent.

8c. Qd4-e5+ Ke8-f8 As white this would probably by my prefered move for Black, but I don't see it helping Black significantly.

Ken

[Carolus Rex]

quote: Originally posted by kcbob on 09-01-2000 01:34 PM And "cowboys"??? I'm a city slicker myself. Born and bred right here in Metropolis. I rode a horse once at church camp and had a garden once in my backyard. But, "cowboy"? Not a chance! I'm too hooked on cable TV, air conditioning, and Baskin Robbins' ice cream!

LOL!

Nicely chosen figures, BTW! That's what research is all about!!!

Much to do this weekend, may not be able to continue before Monday...

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Hey Ken!

I don't mind at all, on the contrary! Had a lot of fun reading your analysis. I'll reply to it, have to quote you.

Hang on...

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

quote: Originally posted by Ken Hinds on 09-02-2000 07:16 AM 8. Qd4-e5+ This forces Black to interpose or move. Black has 3 choices at this point. 8a. Qd4-e5+ Qd8-e7 9. Qe5xe7+ Ke8xe7 Now we find out how well black does without a Queen and no chance of castling. I know that I can usually hold my own after an early queen exchange if there has been no significant developement by the opponent.

I don't agree with your conclusions here (surprise! ). First after 9. .. Ke8xe7 black can play Rh8-e8 followed by Ke7-f8 and in fact casle "artificially". True this takes time. But after that the rock on e8 and the knight on f6 puts pressure on my pawn at e4, pressure that increases after Bc8-b7. I think this is a pretty good position for black, although I haven't given white any chance to respond here...

Also, black can capture with the bishop instead, 9. .. Bc5xe7. Although losing tempo, this time he can castle naturally to the Kings's side and again put pressure on white's pawn at e4 along the lines above. I myself would prefer capturing with the King as above, since I can attack e4 faster.

quote: Originally posted by Ken Hinds on 09-02-2000 07:16 AM 8b. Qd4-e5+ Bc4-e7 9. Bc1-g5 If Black moves the knight at f6 he leaves the bishop in a double pin (to K by my Q or to Q by my B so that brings us to: 8b. Qd4-e5+ Bc4-e7 9a. Bc1-g5 Nf6-g4 10. Qe5-d5 This threatens Qd5xf7 mate and forks the rook at a8. Only one situation can be salvaged.

I put a BIG question mark after 9a. Bc1-g5..Nf6-g4?

Why move the knight at all? 9. Bc1-g5..O-O looks stronger to me. Now white can't play 10. Bg5xf6 because of 10. .. Be7xf6!. Black has the initiative here IMHO.

quote: Originally posted by Ken Hinds on 09-02-2000 07:16 AM 8c. Qd4-e5+ Ke8-f8 As white this would probably by my prefered move for Black, but I don't see it helping Black significantly.

I agree with you here. I think 8. ..Ke8-f8 is inferior to the options above.

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Just an addendum to the post above.

After

9. Bc1-g5..O-O

black threatens to play 10. .. Rf8-e8 and white's queen hasn't got an awful lot of good squares to retreat to. Then black can follow up by 11. .. Bc8-b7.

I think black has the initiative here. Of course, since I play white in this game I'm biased and so I believe 8. Qd4-d3 is better than all of the above!

Carolus

[Ken Hinds]

Carolus,

I was not advocating that black move his knight, rather showing that if the knight is moved what I saw as the possibilities for White. And as I said I doubt that I would have come out so strongly with my queen in the first 4 moves, but given that I had done so, I would not have backed off at that point. Against fairly strong, well-rounded players I don't always win by doing so, but I can often be enough of a pest that I can cost them points in the tournement and in a Swiss style tournement I can gain rating points even if I lose.

With equal strength or weaker players it will often trash their game plan bad enough that I either win outright or force them into a time pressure panic mode, thus forcing some of them to come unglued and make major blunders. With only 150 minutes to make 45 moves there is not a lot of time per move and if I can force my opponent to stop and consider most of his moves and suceed in dragging the game out to 30 moves or so, many players at about my level start to panic when they have 5 - 10 minutes to make 15 moves. If I can manage to make it look like they are going to lose, even if it is not positive, a good share will resign rather than fight the clock, others will blunder for me and some will lose on time.

In any rated tournement that I play I know that my opponent is going to be 1,000 or so points above me (Grandmaster, Master, or Expert) so it is not a matter of will I win, but how long can I prolong the agony. My second game will almost assuredly be against another in the same groups as my first game except that he/she lost to some as yet unrated or underrated player. This game will be an iffy one. My opponent has just gotten bombed by someone, that in theory, they should have beaten and are watching their rating drop by 20 or more points from that one loss alone. They are looking to make sure it doesn't happen twice. On my part, I'm usually white since I just got smeared as black in my first game. If I was real lucky I lasted 20-25 moves in the first game. I normally will try to play the exact same moves in my second game that my opponent in the first game did. If I can follow the script without my new opponent shooting my plan full of holes, I can come out strong in the first 8-10 moves before I'm on my own. This is often enough to make the opposition think that I really know what I'm doing, even though I usually have no clue about why the moves were made. With luck, a big show of confidence, and insecurity on the part of the opposition I might win the game or at least make it easier for the next person that plays against them to win. I normally don't get any wins until my third game and can quite often win games 3 - 5 or 6, depending on the length of the tournement.

My wins are not so much because of great skill on my part, but because I've learned how to surprise my opponents and cause them to blunder or at least think that they have blundered.

You asked about on-line tournement sites. If you take your chess real seriously, or have a low tolerance for impolite behaviour I would not reccommend the site that I am using. I only started using it because it was being used as a substitute board for my game in the tournement at work. Many of the posters on their message board are posting comments about games and other players that would get them tossed out of here in a heartbeat. Many of them seem to be kids or kids in adult bodies. Their method of time control leaves a lot to be desired in my opinion and there have been several complaints posted about players who wait until the last possible momement to make their move, appearantly in the hopes that some problem will befall their opponents over the course of the game and therefore provide them a win on time forfeit. Also, more important probably to you is that it seems to me that they have some kind of problem with European and Scandanavian connections. My round round of the Chess tournement had 73 sections of 5 players. We averaged 1 forfeit on time in the first 2 moves per section. Some had more than one some had none. Almost all the forfeits were from the UK, Mainland Europe, or Scandinavia. The one that forfeted in my section was from Sweden. With that many non U.S. forfeits I think the problem has to something other than just the players.

Ken

[kcbob]

Man, I step away from the board for a day and... holy, moly. (Is moly spelled right?)

I'll comment on the comments when I get a chance. Right now, my brother-in-law is coming over and we're going to play this cool game. Maybe you've heard of it? It's called Civ2. Anyway, I will reply to the commentary. How can I not? The whole world is watching. Well, a couple of people anyway.

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Carolus Rex]

1. e2-e4....e7-e5
2. Ng1-f3...Nb8-c6
3. d2-d4....Nc6xd4
4. Nf3xd4...e5xd4
5. Qd1xd4...Ng8-f6
6. Bf1-c4...b7-b6
7. O-O......Bf8-c5
8. Qd4-d3...O-O
9. Bc1-g5...Qd8-e7
10. Nb1-c3..Bc8-b7
11. Ra1-e1..Qe7-e5
12. Bg5xf6..Qe5xf6
13. a2-a3...Ra8-d8
14. b2-b4...Bc5-d6
15. Nc3-d5..Bb7xd5
16. Bc4xd5..c7-c6
17. Bd5-b3..Rf8-e8
18. f2-f4...Bd6-c7
19. e4-e5...

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Maybe too early, but I want to neutralize your bishop while opening up the diagonal towards Your Majesty!

Is that over a LAN you're playing Civ MP? I've been thinking about setting one up, haven't gotten around to do it yet.

Carolus

[kcbob]

1. e2-e4....e7-e5
2. Ng1-f3...Nb8-c6
3. d2-d4....Nc6xd4
4. Nf3xd4...e5xd4
5. Qd1xd4...Ng8-f6
6. Bf1-c4...b7-b6
7. O-O......Bf8-c5
8. Qd4-d3...O-O
9. Bc1-g5...Qd8-e7
10. Nb1-c3..Bc8-b7
11. Ra1-e1..Qe7-e5
12. Bg5xf6..Qe5xf6
13. a2-a3...Ra8-d8
14. b2-b4...Bc5-d6
15. Nc3-d5..Bb7xd5
16. Bc4xd5..c7-c6
17. Bd5-b3..Rf8-e8
18. f2-f4...Bd6-c7
19. e4-e5...Qf6-h4


------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex on 09-02-2000 08:02 AM Why move the knight at all? 9. Bc1-g5..O-O looks stronger to me. Now white can't play 10. Bg5xf6 because of 10. .. Be7xf6!. Black has the initiative here IMHO. Carolus

I hope everyone remembers their thoughts from the previous page.

This is the move I would have made. Castling to safety looked pretty good at this point.

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by Ken Hinds on 09-02-2000 09:16 AM Carolus, With equal strength or weaker players it will often trash their game plan bad enough that I either win outright or force them into a time pressure panic mode... Ken

When playing Black, I don't really have a "game plan". I'm mostly reacting to White's moves, looking for a mistake, trading pieces when I can, and looking for a way to gain a draw. This is assuming I'm playing a reasonably good player, e.g., Carolus, and not my sister.

I'm still wondering why White doesn't take the pawn at move 13, i.e., Qd3xd7. My best response is Bc5-d6 to somewhat enclose the queen, but there are ample escape routes and White is then a pawn up.
------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[This message has been edited by kcbob (edited September 05, 2000).]

[Carolus Rex]

1. e2-e4....e7-e5
2. Ng1-f3...Nb8-c6
3. d2-d4....Nc6xd4
4. Nf3xd4...e5xd4
5. Qd1xd4...Ng8-f6
6. Bf1-c4...b7-b6
7. O-O......Bf8-c5
8. Qd4-d3...O-O
9. Bc1-g5...Qd8-e7
10. Nb1-c3..Bc8-b7
11. Ra1-e1..Qe7-e5
12. Bg5xf6..Qe5xf6
13. a2-a3...Ra8-d8
14. b2-b4...Bc5-d6
15. Nc3-d5..Bb7xd5
16. Bc4xd5..c7-c6
17. Bd5-b3..Rf8-e8
18. f2-f4...Bd6-c7
19. e4-e5...Qf6-h4
20. Re1-e3..

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

quote: Originally posted by kcbob on 09-05-2000 10:18 AM I'm still wondering why White doesn't take the pawn at move 13, i.e., Qd3xd7. My best response is Bc5-d6 to somewhat enclose the queen, but there are ample escape routes and White is then a pawn up.

I'll get back to you on this one, heading for home now.

Carolus

[kcbob]

1. e2-e4....e7-e5
2. Ng1-f3...Nb8-c6
3. d2-d4....Nc6xd4
4. Nf3xd4...e5xd4
5. Qd1xd4...Ng8-f6
6. Bf1-c4...b7-b6
7. O-O......Bf8-c5
8. Qd4-d3...O-O
9. Bc1-g5...Qd8-e7
10. Nb1-c3..Bc8-b7
11. Ra1-e1..Qe7-e5
12. Bg5xf6..Qe5xf6
13. a2-a3...Ra8-d8
14. b2-b4...Bc5-d6
15. Nc3-d5..Bb7xd5
16. Bc4xd5..c7-c6
17. Bd5-b3..Rf8-e8
18. f2-f4...Bd6-c7
19. e4-e5...Qf6-h4
20. Re1-e3..g7-g6


------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[kcbob]

Attention, fellow Apolytoners! Now accepting students into a newly opened class ENGLISH 102 - AMERICAN SLANG. Learn terms such as Sandbagger - one who has more skill than he professes to possess, in order to sucker in the unsuspecting mark. See Carolus Rex.

You're killing me, Carolus. Are you sure your name isn't Fisher? Or maybe, Alekhine? How about Nimzovitch? Or... could it be... Betty Joe Beolyofski? (Sorry, bad reference to Firesign Theater).

But you are killing me. That's a fact.

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Smash]

He does seem to know what hes doing doesn't he?

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by Smash on 09-05-2000 05:02 PM He does seem to know what hes doing doesn't he?

You noticed that too, huh?

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Ken Hinds]

Kcbob,

If I remember correctly he did get you to offer up a finacial incentive, one months payment on the local mansion. Isn't that the usual tactic when hustling pool or horseshoes?

Ken

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by Ken Hinds on 09-06-2000 01:36 AM Kcbob, If I remember correctly he did get you to offer up a finacial incentive, one months payment on the local mansion. Isn't that the usual tactic when hustling pool or horseshoes? Ken

That's right!!! Ya know, now that I think about it, maybe Carolus Rex is Swedish for the Cincinnatti Kid. And I would make a good Minnesota Fats.

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[This message has been edited by kcbob (edited September 06, 2000).]

[Carolus Rex]

quote: Originally posted by kcbob on 09-05-2000 02:10 PM Attention, fellow Apolytoners! Now accepting students into a newly opened class ENGLISH 102 - AMERICAN SLANG. Learn terms such as Sandbagger - one who has more skill than he professes to possess, in order to sucker in the unsuspecting mark. See Carolus Rex.

ROTFLMAO!

Good one, kcbob!

I like that movie, but as I recall it Minnesota Fats kicked Eddy's butt the first time they played.

Have you seen the sequel with Paul Newman and Tom Cruise? Pretty good too...

Still thinking about my next move.

Carolus

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by Carolus Rex on 09-06-2000 11:49 AM I like that movie, but as I recall it Minnesota Fats kicked Eddy's butt the first time they played.

Oh, I'd forgotten that. Haven't seen the sequel.

quote: Still thinking about my next move.

Aaarrrgghhh!! I've been forgetting to push the button on the clock. All this time you've been running on my clock. I'm toast!

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Carolus Rex]

1. e2-e4....e7-e5
2. Ng1-f3...Nb8-c6
3. d2-d4....Nc6xd4
4. Nf3xd4...e5xd4
5. Qd1xd4...Ng8-f6
6. Bf1-c4...b7-b6
7. O-O......Bf8-c5
8. Qd4-d3...O-O
9. Bc1-g5...Qd8-e7
10. Nb1-c3..Bc8-b7
11. Ra1-e1..Qe7-e5
12. Bg5xf6..Qe5xf6
13. a2-a3...Ra8-d8
14. b2-b4...Bc5-d6
15. Nc3-d5..Bb7xd5
16. Bc4xd5..c7-c6
17. Bd5-b3..Rf8-e8
18. f2-f4...Bd6-c7
19. e4-e5...Qf6-h4
20. Re1-e3..g7-g6
21. Re3-h3..

Carolus

[kcbob]

1. e2-e4....e7-e5
2. Ng1-f3...Nb8-c6
3. d2-d4....Nc6xd4
4. Nf3xd4...e5xd4
5. Qd1xd4...Ng8-f6
6. Bf1-c4...b7-b6
7. O-O......Bf8-c5
8. Qd4-d3...O-O
9. Bc1-g5...Qd8-e7
10. Nb1-c3..Bc8-b7
11. Ra1-e1..Qe7-e5
12. Bg5xf6..Qe5xf6
13. a2-a3...Ra8-d8
14. b2-b4...Bc5-d6
15. Nc3-d5..Bb7xd5
16. Bc4xd5..c7-c6
17. Bd5-b3..Rf8-e8
18. f2-f4...Bd6-c7
19. e4-e5...Qf6-h4
20. Re1-e3..g7-g6
21. Re3-h3..Qh4-g4


------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[Carolus Rex]

1. e2-e4....e7-e5
2. Ng1-f3...Nb8-c6
3. d2-d4....Nc6xd4
4. Nf3xd4...e5xd4
5. Qd1xd4...Ng8-f6
6. Bf1-c4...b7-b6
7. O-O......Bf8-c5
8. Qd4-d3...O-O
9. Bc1-g5...Qd8-e7
10. Nb1-c3..Bc8-b7
11. Ra1-e1..Qe7-e5
12. Bg5xf6..Qe5xf6
13. a2-a3...Ra8-d8
14. b2-b4...Bc5-d6
15. Nc3-d5..Bb7xd5
16. Bc4xd5..c7-c6
17. Bd5-b3..Rf8-e8
18. f2-f4...Bd6-c7
19. e4-e5...Qf6-h4
20. Re1-e3..g7-g6
21. Re3-h3..Qh4-g4
22. f4-f5...

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Maybe too early?

Still, interesting to see what comes out of it...

Carolus