Thread Tools
Old May 10, 2001, 20:58   #1
yin26
inmate
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Born Again Optimist
 
yin26's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: This space reserved for Darkstar.
Posts: 5,667
Why I / YOU / WE will NOT be buying Sim Golf...
First, let me give you my assumptions:

1. Sid IS a genius and has earned the right to make any damn game he pleases. If the next project is "Cement Setter Sally," God bless him. He has given me more for my money than any designer of anything ever.

2. Sim Golf will be a great game...for its genre.

Those are my assumptions, so please understand where I'm coming from as I explain why I simply will NOT buy Sim Golf:

quote:

...plop down a tee, lay down a little bit of fairway, position the green, scatter around a few bunkers, and turn my little golfers loose. There's something mesmerizing about just watching my golfers whack that little white ball and seeing it sail through the air.


A few years ago, this might have had some vague appeal. But this kind of stuff has been done TO DEATH...by people who actually spent their careers doing it and NOT by people who got inspired reading a golf magazine last October. And let's face it, plopping down a tree is just not that compelling no matter how well you do it. If I want mesmerizing action placing cute artifacts and watching minute things go around in circles, I'll get a fish tank.

In fact, a fish tank simulator is something I likely WOULD buy. Sid, please consider making "Sid Meier's Sim Fish Tank." Or just drop the 'Fish' part and go with "Sid Meier's Sim Tank." Now we're talking!

quote:

We are particularly fascinated by the way 'The Sims' has fostered a very active online community of people who enjoy sharing Sims skins, story books, props, wallpaper, etc. To me this represents in a way the future of online gaming. While some games are suited for competitive RTS style multi-play, I think a lot more people respond to the idea of joining a community of like-interested gamers to share ideas, experiences, and game pieces that they have created or collected. This is something that we are planning to expand upon in SimGolf.


This, of course, begs the question: So why has Firaxis absolutely ingnored this important aspect of gaming ...the community... before? Firaxis was unable even to properly moderate its own forums (which were open of all about a month?). And to this point, the manner in which Civ3 has been presented as a second class citizen and Firaxis as a reclusive, self-absorbed company doesn't bode well either. If you plan on using the same people to do the moderating, interacting, and hyping, better plan on sending them to a few seminars on how to deal with the public.

Better yet, just pay Maxis to handle it.

quote:

Well I'm a busy guy these days! It's really great to be working on a brand-new game like SimGolf, and a classic like Civilization at the same time.


The million dollar "this begs the question...": Any chance BOTH games will suffer? It reminds me a bit of Sid's 'Covert Action Rule,' which says it's better to have one good game than two great games. Of course, he meant it's a mistake to have essentially two great games WITHIN the same game, causing the game as a whole to lose focus.

But what about two completely different games at the same time, Sid? Almost every demise scenario I've read about a bankrupt gaming company started with:

A: Flush with excited from our success, we decided to hire 5 times the staff and consult Steven Spielberg on the Hollywood budget cinematics

OR

B: We felt comfortable doing more than one project at once.

Firaxis has already done a bit of 'A' in terms of the number of staff they've added since Gettysburg (awesome game, by the way). And as for 'B', that approach NECESSARILY dilutes your focus as a company and creates room for all kinds of potentially ruinous things like in-house grudges over who gets to work on what project or, even worse, who gets pulled mid-stream from one game to work on stuff for the other. A kind of infinite digression of wasted time and energy.

A should I toss in a Dino reference here for good measure? Why in all that's Good and Holy would you be chasing Dinos and Golf Balls when Civ3 is back where it belongs...in YOUR hands at YOUR company. My God, Sid. CIV3!!! You can ALWAYS go back to plopping down trees and lush gardens. Any compelling reason to jepordize your Flagship Game?

I just don't get it. Are you just THAT bored with Civ? I guess so if exchanging Sim Golf wallpaper seems thrilling by comparison.

quote:

Will you pamper your players with lovely gardens, comfy benches, and a luxury hotel or will you torment them with monstrous sand traps, tacky vacation homes, and spine-chilling golf shots - the possibilities are endless.


Yes, and "endless" ain't always a good thing. Consider, for example, Hell.
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited May 10, 2001).]
yin26 is offline  
Old May 10, 2001, 21:37   #2
Lord_Davinator
PtWDG Roleplay
Warlord
 
Local Time: 12:49
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Kathmandu
Posts: 261
Its sad that all the work we put into these forums are not going to mean much...
Now I've even reversed my decision to buy the game when it come out, first I'll wait for the goood reviews then I might even wait for another few months if it ain't too bad and I don't get any other game before I buy it.

And I definitely will not but a crappy golf sim game.

[This message has been edited by Lord_Davinator (edited May 10, 2001).]
Lord_Davinator is offline  
Old May 10, 2001, 23:14   #3
Father Beast
King
 
Father Beast's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: My head stuck permanently in my civ
Posts: 1,703
I have trouble imagining what market this game is going for.
The real golfers are rabid simulation (that's real physics simulation, not will wright "sim"lation) nuts. and the big companies have knocked themselves out to bring Golfers their courses. the guys who have no other games will have Golf at work. There's 3 different companies competing for the best Golf, and they all stay afloat. How will a "golf course manager" fit into that mindset?

then there's people like me. I don't like sports, and even if I did, I wouldn't like golf. I do have Links 386, but I got that out of the trash, and hardly ever play it. its realism seems too pretentious to me. I just don't get it.

so I don't get it, and I ignore it.
Father Beast is offline  
Old May 11, 2001, 00:04   #4
yin26
inmate
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Born Again Optimist
 
yin26's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: This space reserved for Darkstar.
Posts: 5,667
I don't get it either. It's not "real" enough to satisfy one crowd and harldy sim enough to satisfy the other (or, I should say, stands against VERY stiff competition in this area already).

Even this "let your Joe Cool character play the course" sounds horribly shallow: You get to select how "aggressively" he hits the ball. So let me get this straight: You don't actually CONTROL him hitting the ball, you just select some static text option and see what happens?

So how do you improve? How do you judge the course? "Gee, next time I guess I'll click 'semi-aggressive.'" Zzzzzzzz Sid seems to be pulling another Covert Action: Trying to put two games in one...a sim course-builder and a golf game.

Like I said, I think it will be a good game for its genre. The problem, I guess, is what IS it's genre? And unless it's truly redefining something here, it would seem that the elements we've seen so far have been handled with much more experience and focus elsewhere.

What can I say? Firaxis is doing a Golf Sim!!! And only, mind you, because they decided NOT to do a Dino game first. My God...
yin26 is offline  
Old May 11, 2001, 00:48   #5
Smash
Emperor
 
Smash's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:19
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Civ2 Diehard
Posts: 3,838
I won't be buying cuz undoubtedly it won't be available to the mac os.

It does sound kinda neat though.As an avid golfer,this sim seems a little more appealing than some.
I imagine you try to build a course that is attractive to sim golfers working your way up in prestige and perhaps some day attracting a PGA tournament or perhaps even a Major Championship.It would be fun to make a "nightmare tough" course and watch the sims whine about it.Maybe fill it with alligator infested water hazards and stock your proshop with balls
Smash is offline  
Old May 11, 2001, 02:29   #6
MarkG
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 05-10-2001 08:58 PM
Better yet, just pay Maxis to handle it.

actually, that's exactly what they are doing
quote:

After it ships, Maxis will provide continued online support for the game by releasing new skins and items through its official Web site as it's done for all of its previous games
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/stories...7147-2,00.html

 
Old May 11, 2001, 02:30   #7
MarkG
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
quote:

Originally posted by Father Beast on 05-10-2001 11:14 PM
There's 3 different companies competing for the best Golf, and they all stay afloat. How will a "golf course manager" fit into that mindset?
eeer you are talking about golf-playing simulation. this is going to be a mananagment game....

 
Old May 11, 2001, 02:41   #8
MarkG
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 05-11-2001 12:04 AM
Like I said, I think it will be a good game for its genre. The problem, I guess, is what IS it's genre? And unless it's truly redefining something here, it would seem that the elements we've seen so far have been handled with much more experience and focus elsewhere.

this is actually something new: simcity meets the sims!
quote:

Certain pairs of golfers will become involved in stories relating to business, relationships, rivalries, and romance as they play your course. By selecting the players who will play together and by providing them with a fun experience you can guide these stories to happy (or unhappy?) endings. "Bob would have gotten that promotion if his boss hadn't hit his drive into the lake." "Billy felt so good after that cool foamy Coke that he proposed to Cindy!" Players can even create their own stories and share them through the SimGolf web site

other games like Caesar 3 also had your people telling you what the needed, if they were happy, etc, but in SimGolf we are talking about the-sims-like characters

 
Old May 11, 2001, 02:49   #9
The Rusty Gamer
Prince
 
The Rusty Gamer's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 952
There's already another similar game called Golf Resort Tycoon coming out in about a week. Check out http://www.golfresorttycoon.com/. At a glance the graphics look nicer. In other words, Sid may have been beaten to the punch on this one!
The Rusty Gamer is offline  
Old May 11, 2001, 06:01   #10
Urban Ranger
NationStatesApolyton Storywriters' GuildNever Ending Stories
Deity
 
Urban Ranger's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: May 1999
Location: The City State of Noosphere, CPA special envoy
Posts: 14,606
A golf course manager? What do you do? Go around and take all the lost balls?
Urban Ranger is offline  
Old May 11, 2001, 19:13   #11
yin26
inmate
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Born Again Optimist
 
yin26's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: This space reserved for Darkstar.
Posts: 5,667
Number of developers on Civilization III : 20
Number of Firaxis employees : 36
Number on Sim Golf: = 16?

Nearly HALF of the staff on Sim Golf? Tell me those 16 staff kept focussed on Civ 3 WOULDN'T make Civ 3 a far better game.

tniem: One can only hope Sid has already learned his lesson, but things sure look a bit confusing so far...
yin26 is offline  
Old May 11, 2001, 20:02   #12
Apocalypse
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameCivilization III Democracy GameCivilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMMacInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization II MultiplayerCivilization IV: MultiplayerCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Emperor
 
Apocalypse's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,253
First off, the Firaxis forums were open much longer than a month, it was over a year and during that year the posters were very productive, we even compiled a book of the major events that happened, The Book of NIM.

Also, the two team system has worked before at other companies. The worst case scenario is if it turns out to be like Square. Both Gettysburg! and Alpha Centauri were very good and they had two different teams working on them at a time.

Furthermore, I highly doubt Sid is really into Civ3. If you remember past interviews, he doesn't like making sequels.
Apocalypse is offline  
Old May 11, 2001, 20:34   #13
yin26
inmate
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Born Again Optimist
 
yin26's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: This space reserved for Darkstar.
Posts: 5,667
I'm not talking about those forums...You are talking about owo, right?
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited May 11, 2001).]
yin26 is offline  
Old May 11, 2001, 22:03   #14
Imran Siddiqui
staff
Apolytoners Hall of FameAge of Nations TeamPolyCast Team
 
Imran Siddiqui's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: on the corner of Peachtree and Peachtree
Posts: 30,698
You know I'll buy it. I like the Sim games (except for the Sims), and Sid is the man . I like management games, so I'll spend some cash on it.
Imran Siddiqui is offline  
Old May 11, 2001, 22:18   #15
Father Beast
King
 
Father Beast's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: My head stuck permanently in my civ
Posts: 1,703
quote:

Originally posted by Father Beast on 05-10-2001 11:14 PM
I have trouble imagining what market this game is going for.
The real golfers are rabid simulation (that's real physics simulation, not will wright "sim"lation) nuts. and the big companies have knocked themselves out to bring Golfers their courses. the guys who have no other games will have Golf at work. There's 3 different companies competing for the best Golf, and they all stay afloat. How will a "golf course manager" fit into that mindset?

then there's people like me. I don't like sports, and even if I did, I wouldn't like golf. I do have Links 386, but I got that out of the trash, and hardly ever play it. its realism seems too pretentious to me. I just don't get it.

so I don't get it, and I ignore it.


I am afraid that after thinking about it, I have to argue with myself.

I recall that Will shopped simcity to several publishers, who couldn't take it seriously because it was so different. "who would Play it?" they asked.
And now I realize I made the same kind of ignorant assumption. I'm neither a golf nut or sim nut. I probably won't buy it. But a lot of people may well think it's awesome.

Who Knows? Stranger things have happened...
Father Beast is offline  
Old May 12, 2001, 00:08   #16
yin26
inmate
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Born Again Optimist
 
yin26's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: This space reserved for Darkstar.
Posts: 5,667
Father Beast:

Like I said, I think it will sell well for its audience (I don't think it will rival The Sims by ANY means), but the fact that nearly half of the Firaxis staff is on Sim Golf just leaves me awfully flat. If it only takes 20 people to make Civ 3 an awesome game, then great.
yin26 is offline  
Old May 12, 2001, 00:11   #17
lord of the mark
Deity
 
lord of the mark's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160
quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 05-11-2001 12:04 AM
I don't get it either. It's not "real" enough to satisfy one crowd and harldy sim enough to satisfy the other (or, I should say, stands against VERY stiff competition in this area already).

Even this "let your Joe Cool character play the course" sounds horribly shallow: You get to select how "aggressively" he hits the ball. So let me get this straight: You don't actually CONTROL him hitting the ball, you just select some static text option and see what happens?

So how do you improve? How do you judge the course? "Gee, next time I guess I'll click 'semi-aggressive.'" Zzzzzzzz Sid seems to be pulling another Covert Action: Trying to put two games in one...a sim course-builder and a golf game.

Like I said, I think it will be a good game for its genre. The problem, I guess, is what IS it's genre? And unless it's truly redefining something here, it would seem that the elements we've seen so far have been handled with much more experience and focus elsewhere.

What can I say? Firaxis is doing a Golf Sim!!! And only, mind you, because they decided NOT to do a Dino game first. My God...



I dont see what the big deal is about 2 games in one. I have never played one of the roller coaster sims, but IIUC you both get to play it as a business sim (what to build, what to charge, etc) AND you get to actually ride (first person view) your custom designed coasters - as a treat. Not surprised that they would add a first person play through feature to what must essentially be a business sim, competing with Roller Coaster Tycoon and its ilk, NOT a sports game.

Have any of you looked at the sales lately for roller coaster tycoon? and its appeal to non hard core gamers? Seems like a perfect natural for Maxis, and if Sid wants to dabble in it, so be it.

Seems Sid's most important talent for the Civ series lately has been cultivating talent. Brian Reynolds obviously. The question now is whether Jeff Bridges et al can pick up where Brian left off, with Sid mainly ensuring that they keep to his vision of Civ3, not getting involved in the details. From what we have seem so far they are developing an excellent game though im sure none of us (myself included) likes everything we see.


LOTM
lord of the mark is offline  
Old May 12, 2001, 00:18   #18
lord of the mark
Deity
 
lord of the mark's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 11,160

DIdn't sid once say in an interview that civ was in part inspired by Simcity? The idea of a sid/will wright collaboration seems the most natural thing in the world, though i can think of some better directions than simgolf Hopefully this will be a chance for them to learn to work together before moving on to a more interesting project (Simsociety? Sim congress? Sim state department? Sim NATO? Simeconomy?)

LOTM
lord of the mark is offline  
Old May 12, 2001, 00:52   #19
tniem
King
 
Local Time: 02:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Hope College
Posts: 2,232
I think this could be a very good game with a huge fun factor which after all is what games are all about.

My biggest concern is not that it will hurt Civ III, because I don't think it will, but instead one of the things yin mentioned that Sid is putting two games in one. It sounds like playing the courses is kind of like riding the coasters you build in Rollercoaster Tycoon and then some. How much effort am I going to have to put in to learning how to play golf in Sid's Sim Golf just to suceed in building a fantastic course? I just wonder about this. Two games at one company isn't the worrisome thing, its two games in one game that is disturbing me.
tniem is offline  
Old May 12, 2001, 02:40   #20
The Rusty Gamer
Prince
 
The Rusty Gamer's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 952
SimMall? See http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum22/HTML/000845.html?4
The Rusty Gamer is offline  
Old May 12, 2001, 05:22   #21
yin26
inmate
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
Born Again Optimist
 
yin26's Avatar
 
Local Time: 03:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: This space reserved for Darkstar.
Posts: 5,667
LOTM:

Excellent point about Sid perhaps learning a great deal and later returning to a more serious theme. Well taken. I just only wish he had gone 100% on Civ 3 FIRST.
yin26 is offline  
Old May 12, 2001, 13:04   #22
Apocalypse
Alpha Centauri Democracy GameCivilization III Democracy GameCivilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMMacInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization II MultiplayerCivilization IV: MultiplayerCiv4 SP Democracy Game
Emperor
 
Apocalypse's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Texas
Posts: 4,253
I'm taking about their own forums. They had that old newsgroup-type for many months and then had the UBB for a few more months until it crashed because of the large amounts of posts. After that they moved to owo.
Apocalypse is offline  
Old May 14, 2001, 14:12   #23
Khan Singh
Warlord
 
Khan Singh's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: By means of the Internet, I am all places at once
Posts: 138
I'll probably be buying it. Of course I'm a single-digit handicapper who also likes computer golf ( I have Golden Bear Challenge AND Links, and used to design courses, back when I had free time). Naturally I'll want to look at it first and read a review, but how bad can it be? After all it's about golf, the most elegant, subtle and perfect game ever devised.


While I'm no sure what Simgolf will be about exactly (hard to tell from the information provided so far) , I'm assuming that it will be an 3/4 view isomorphic golfing game with a course designer, and maybe some sort of management game. I'm certainly not enthusiastic about the idea of an 3/4 isomorphic golf game, and the Sims didn't interest me in the slightest, but there is probably some way to make such a combination interesting.

Maybe you could concentrate on strategic play choices (playing a draw or fade, using driver or iron off the tee, laying up or being a hero, etc) and add on a layer for betting, gamesmanship and player development. Or you could put the game in the Tour context where your strategic choices earn you money.

I don't know if such a game could become a classic, but it might be fun for a while. And it might have wider appeal to the "Wal-mart customer" than Civ.
Khan Singh is offline  
Old May 15, 2001, 16:22   #24
Ari Rahikkala
King
 
Ari Rahikkala's Avatar
 
Local Time: 10:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Shireroth
Posts: 2,792
quote:

Originally posted by yin26 on 05-10-2001 08:58 PM
Are you just THAT bored with Civ? font>


* Puts on an asbestos suit *

Actually, I think that Sid could be. After all, he is quite a genius amd a genius doesn't like working on the same project all time. Who knows if he has been like this before: Lots of small game ideas that don't actually get done, and then a big project that is actually simple, and also gets done. I'm claiming that Sid doesn't have the patience to work on a really big project for a long time.

* Dodges a few stones while speaking*

On the other hand, well, that's just my opinion.

Ari Rahikkala is offline  
Old May 17, 2001, 18:55   #25
VetLegion
Civilization II MultiplayerDiploGames
Emperor
 
VetLegion's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 4,037
[\quote]this is actually something new: simcity meets the sims![/quote]

actually Tropico is just that: SimCity meets the Sims, and on a whole island, not just golf course. If I was Sid I would try to license the engine. PopTop (developer of Tropico and Railroad Tycoon II) also has the best user interfaces in the world.

[quote]* Puts on an asbestos suit *[\quote]

that wont save you Just kidding, I dont want to flame anyone. But Sid deserves credit for at least three things. First, games he did. Secondly, games he didnt do; Dinosaurs, it takes honesty not to publish a ****ty game. Thirdly, collaboration (going out for advice).

I dont see the problem here. I would have no problem if Firaxis (or anyone else) did a few bad games. Sid Meiers Minesweeper, so what? Civ3 being understaffed? I doubt it. I think civ3 is going to be an ok game. They are doing it for a long time, and only changing a couple of things from earlier games. They have enough time to get changes ok. I am not worried at all.


*goes off to check screenshots some more*
VetLegion is offline  
Old May 18, 2001, 09:15   #26
Khan Singh
Warlord
 
Khan Singh's Avatar
 
Local Time: 02:19
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: By means of the Internet, I am all places at once
Posts: 138
Tropico is very good and its interface has a lot of nice features, but I don't think the RR2 engine is really any better than the SMAC engine. There are stability questions, for one thing.

Also, the "walking" model (where the gameplay consists of building a city whose inhabitants don't have to walk very far, ie Caesar or Tropico) isn't, as a concept, getting any fresher or more original. It works very well in Tropico, mind you, and the game is fun and well designed, with a number of original features and a well streamlined economy. But I'm getting as tired of these games as I am of Civ's "empire" model.

Novelty is half of entertainment.
Khan Singh is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:19.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team