Manifesto of a determined "leader"....

[The Capo]

Quite recently I have been called numerous names, and have been the subject of numerous adjectives. Some possibly warranted, others were attributed to me with no prior knowledge at all.

A lot of people are confused by me, they consider me short tempered, they consider me to be too confrontational to play with.

Here is what makes me tick, and by the way, thank you very much for reading what I have posted....

I do not like civilization for the "normal" reasons people do, I don't particularly enjoy faceless and emotionless conflit. I don't particularly enjoy the idea of exponential growth for the sake of exponential growth, I don't particularly enjoy the idea of double movement or double production. That is what goes through my head when these things are brought to the table, I dislike them, but I will be the first to tell you; I have on many occasions played with one or more of these variables in action.

Anyone who has actually played a game with me, I hope at least, will speak volumes of me. I am a very exceptional personality when it comes to the game of civilization, even OzzyKP, who's words to me have been silenced by my bragadocious manner will readily admit that I am an enjoyable competitor. The reason I am confrontational, the reason I speak from my heart rather than my brain is quite simple:

I am a determined player.

A lot of people here have blasted me for what I have done to Nap Bonaparte, a "respected" member of the Apolyton Community. I do not deny his reputation, nor do I deny his ability to play. I posted the argument for two reasons, one was an immature reason but is offset by the fact of the second. This is what I felt, and I figured that the forum of the community would be a perfect place to air this laundry.

Apparently I was wrong. I apologize right now to Nap Bonaparte for posting what I posted, it was immature of me to do, and in essence (whether incorrectly or not) told the rest of the community that I am self-centered, "uneducated", peice of ****.

However, I am not reneging. Nap, that is what I feel, those things I said in that particular post are my true emotions, and you have to understand that. You basically ruined something that I actually poured part of myself into. I thought for hours on petty details, small minute factors that would most likely not make much of a differance, I deliberated over small matters so the game can be an enjoyable experience for not only Nap, but the rest of the players involved.

I made sacrifices for this game, granted none very major or earth-shattering, but sacrifices were made over this game. I am not blaming Nap for them, I am merely saying that after what occured on that night, they were all in vain, they were all for naught.

Anyone who has ambition, and determination applies heart and soul to their words and actions. To do any less would not enthrall anyone. So here I am, telling you that I am being lambasted by the people I worked so hard for, and I am telling you the reasons why I did what I did.

To finalize this post, which is basically a mish-mash of thoughts going through my head on this issue, I will say this:

I apologize to those who have respected me, to those who have thought of me in a high regard, for posting what I posted and for acting the way I acted. I apologzie to Nap for showing a lot of people who respect and like you, a limited conversation that did not show what lead up to it. I apologize to the players in the game, Adam, Sun, Chris, Joe, Drake, and Nap for the time I wasted and for the amount of crap I put you through. I apologize to Apoltyon for bringing up an issue that was probably not needed for the purposes of this forum.

So whatever, you want to continue to hate me for saying what I feel do so. Its not an issue to me, you have a right to ignore and listen to whomever you wish, but at least understand that I am not doing this out of simple immaturity or idiocy, there is a method to my madness.

And if you were "there" when it occured, you would probably understand that I am not overexaggerating the situation as much as most of you believe.

Thanks, The Cap'

Ming: I still think you're a *****.

[drake]

All I suggest Capo is that you stick to what you do best. Which of course is building great scenarios and playing the diplogame. You should probably stay away from organizing games in any matter. Not because you don't have good intentions in mind, but because you need a lot of patience to start a sucessful game, and you seem to lack this virtue. This isn't an insult, it's an observation and should be taken in stride.

Civ 2 is great when you're playing with people you know well and get along with, but it's even better when you're playing with people you don't like, or don't agree with. Everyone likes a villian (even though I know thats not really you Capo). I don't think you'll have any problems joining a game for this reason. What you might have problems with is recruiting people for another one of your games. For this reason, you should leave this aspect to someone else. Just my opinion.

I close with a suggestion for not just Capo, but for everyone: From now on, lets fight our battles with knights and catapults, like we should be. Civ is what brings us together, so lets keep our focus on the game. There's no need for things to get personal.

[Ming]

Good show Capo...

It's easy to let ones emotions take over...
It's difficult to see how sometimes it is the wrong thing to do.

I don't think anybody can question your dedication and intensity to Civ.

My respect for you has only increased.

I look forward to crossing swords with you some day, even if you do hate double production

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Ming (edited January 26, 2001).]</font>

[CapTVK]

Nice and polite apology Capo, ranting and flaming about it just doesn't work in the end.

Perhaps we'll see you as a sub in Cavebear's diplogame...perhaps...

[markusf]

I wanna see blood damnit!!!

[The Capo]

Ming, your respect of me had no other direction to go in but up.

By the way, I still think Nap's an idiot, if you think I am saying he isn't your are sorely mistaken. That diplogame I was planning I REALLY wanted it to happen and am now merely playing a "watered" down version with a few people from the original "cast."

Joe, if you read this sorry but you weren't online when we planned it out.

Frankly, I'd still like to play a diplogame, with the same thing in place (NO SDI, Facism instead of Fundy etc.) So if anyone is still around that thinks they can give me a shot then go ahead. But I have to warn you, I don't play like I act so don't be fooled by my tirade against Nap.

Peace.

Ming: Well, if we were to play, while your men are busy getting their swords out, mine'll be pointing their Muskets. Peace.

[SunTzu]

Capo, i'll play in your diplogame if you try and start another one, i really wanted to play the diplogame wednesday but we had some problems

[War4ever]

Good apology Capo..... its nice to see the forums work themselves out. I am sorry you still feel Nappy is an idiot (afterall, I am still just as bad as he is with moving folders) and most don't think of me as an idiot.

As for your diplogames...... I think Drake hit it on the head...... It sounds like your strengths are with design and roleplaying.... not with organizing... perhaps with this piece of wisdom you will make even greater strides in your games and not become as easily riled up

I wish you best and i too look forward to my Supreme Hordes marching up on your shocked troops

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Back from hell....i have nothing to lose

[markusf]

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</font><font size=1>Originally posted by War4ever on 01-26-2001 06:44 PM</font>(afterall, I am still just as bad as he is with moving folders) and most don't think of me as an idiot.
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Really? I bet you can't point out anyone in the "most" category

[The Capo]

With all due respect to you "Capo sucks at organizing a game" people.

If you've ever read any of my threads in which I do set up a game you would probably change your tune, based on the simple issue that I was pissed off at a guy because he couldn't accomplish a simple instruction is not fair.

Even if you are bad at moving folders, or whatever, you should have seen the freakin instructions I gave this guy! Drake, someone, Sun! Back me up here!

They were good instructions, anyone that can read could have followed them. I am not bad at organizing games, I don't know where this idea came from.

Sun, what are your thoughts? Did I organize this game well or not?

[cavebear]

I, for one, was not very impressed by Capo's initial "apology", and his subsequent posts have only reinforced that opinion.

Capo is aggrieved that his anger, invective, and ill-temper is not outweighed by his micromanagement and "determination". My advice to him is simple: "Get used to it".

As someone with years of project management experience, and as a former President and tournament organizer of a chess club, I can safely state that the best person for the job of "organizer" is neither the best player nor the most detailed clerical type. The former is not going to be the most knowledgable in the support and communications aspect of setting up the game, and the latter is not going to be likely to understand what the game (and the game players) require. It has to be a balance.

And the organizer must be physchologically balanced, too. Setbacks and surprises abound in getting anything complex underway, and you have to be able to deal with those. You can take out your frustration on inanimate objects, you can complain to your friends, you can even write nasty messages and then erase them. You cannot, however, go public about it.

You have not yet truly apologized for your outburst. You said of few of the right words, but what you mainly did was attempt to "spin" your earlier words, and that is not the same thing. As it stands, I don't think that you yet understand *why* what you posted was wrong, and that is the crux of the matter.

I will be very interested to see how you respond.

[Crustacian]

I apreciate what you did Capo. Thumbs up on your games

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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus

[The Capo]

Before I respond to Cavebear's comments I want to say that the initial post here wasn't meant so much as an apology, although I did apologize to some people. As I stated in my initial post, what I said to Nap was from my heart and is what I really felt so I won't apologize for it because it was natural.

What Cavebear is, in essence, doing is attempting to continue to let me be the "whipping boy" of this forum for something that I have done. That's fine, like I said before hate whoever you want, ignore whoever you want, and listen to whoever you want, its not my concern that Cavebear doesn't like the Capo other than the fact that he continues to make comments and continues to say that he doesn't like me. Which is perfectly fine.

But the problem I have is his insistence that I can not be allowed to organize a game based on an independent incident. That is unfair to me, cavebear has never been involved in a game organized by me, he has no firsthand knowledge whatsoever of how I organize a game. Guys like Joe, guys like Chris and Sun, even guys like Adam and Nap could testify as to excatly how I *ORGANIZE* the game. Some will probably say bad things, but I bet most of those bad things will have nothing to do with the organization of the game itself.

Then he goes on to claim that I am attempting to spin my original post, which makes no sense because that post was a transcribed conversation. I can't spin a conversation unless I talk about the conversation itself, and since you had no other basis except the conversation as to why I would post what I posted you cannot accuse me of spinning anything, because I am not actually spinning a damn word.

By the way, I don't micromanage. That was the point of my post.

As far as your psychological balance claim, that is just stupid to say. I can't believe someone who has no direct knowledge of the events that transpired would even make such a claim, fact is you weren't there and you have no idea what was occuring.

I would also like to point out that after Nap did what he did, the game was over, there was no more organization going on. The second he deleted that file I was no longer organizing anything because there was nothing to organize.

As for the *why* part of your comment. Look man, I explained my position. I understand why YOU THINK I am wrong, but I don't agree with that. What I posted was wrong because I gave the wrong impression of myself to everyone, because I disrespected the members of the group to a degree, but it wasn't wrong becuase if I can say something to Nap in private then I can say it to everyone else, and that's my stance. I don't have to cater to the whims of Cavebear simply becuase Cavebear demands a better apology. I said what I said, I wasn't trying to reneg my post, I was trying to explain why I would do such a thing. It has nothing to do with a psychological imbalance, it has nothing to do with an inability to organize a game. When the game had a chance of going, I was very patient with Nap, but when I realized it was over that's when I laid it into him.

But I can see your motives, you want an argument, you dislike that I am going to "get away with this" so keep talking, you have your rights.

Peace.

[Nap Bonaparte]

Ming...I greatly appreciate your efforts to put a stop to Capo's unfair, irrational, and obscene remarks but it looks as if he wants to continue with the insults so maybe its time that I have my say in this.

I only agreed to join in Capo's diplogame after Aburtt had commited to play. Aburtt was one of the original pioneers of the diplogame concept back in 1999 and I had the pleasure of joining in that 1st diplogame with him, JB, Glohithia and others. Despite what Capo promised in his thread, I was never sent any files before the game was started. I contacted Capo while he was on ICQ the night before the game was to start and I requested both the game file and his "latest" version of the rules and new units but he dropped off ICQ without responding to me. The next day, I went online for the game at the EXACT assigned time and was met with a barrage of impatient ICQ messages regarding being late and unprepared to start the game. If Capo really wanted to play all he had to do was ICQ the unzipped file to me. I have downloaded scores of games/saves/scenarios from dozens of players before but never had to deal with a zip file. So with Capo's "simple" instructions(along with numerous put downs, insults, and obscenities) I finally struggled through AOL Download Manager and Windows Explorer for the 1st time and loaded up his precious game under my scenario folder only to have Capo throw a temper tantrum and quit before we could test the game to make sure I had moved file/folders properly. Contrary to what Capo said, I had no contact with him over the following week and I never assured him that my folder/file pathways matched his exactly(and I would have no way of knowing this unless we were to fire the game up together).

I honestly thought I had the game loaded properly. I was able to fire it up and play it from my scenario folder. I even ICQed the game to other players for their comment on it. I wanted other people to comment on the game because I felt that Capo had really roided up his starting position in Italy...3 grapes and a whale in his starting city and another grape and a whale for city #2 in Spain and a futher whale for #3 in southern Italy. No other civ had terrain even remotely close to that. He originally stuck me out in the middle of the Sahara desert and when I questioned it he relented and moved me back to Zululand. His #1 city could theoretically by 2000 BC be producing 12 shields and 13 trade arrows at size 3. Then he changed the tech paradigm to 15/10 to slow everyone down and allow him to run the board on early wonders. Regardless of what Capo said, Ive got this game loaded and ready to go and I will be happy to ICQ and/or play it with anyone who is interested. My ICQ# is 37676739.

Anyway we all showed up last Wed. night to play this thing. Just like what happened to me , Capo neglected to send the proper info on the game to Aburtt and he was having trouble joining the game. Some of the other players were upset and wanted to drop him but I argued for his inclusion in the game as I thought the way Aburtt was being treated was unfair and he was the only reason I had wanted to be in the game. I offered to host thinking that it might enhance
Aburtts compatiblity with the game and delayed the game a bit to give him a chance to sort things out on his computer. After a while Aburtt gave up and left and Capo dismissed him with a " f*** him, he's a f**" (asterisks not included) and then he turned his wrath and mouth on me. Ten minutes of insults, verbal abuse, and file fumbling after Aburtt left I politely requested to resign from their game. Capo wouldnt let me and started an almost non-stop tirade of obscenities and insults. The whole night was like one long obscene phone call.....no better yet make that an obscene conference call...Capo wasnt the only one(Drake for his part was both helpful and congenial towards me)... so I hung up on them. I didnt ruin their game or even their night. They can certainly play their diplogame without my presence. I play Civ for fun and enjoyment...no one can force me to be in a game with so much verbal abuse going on. I'm not sure that the other players in the game even know this but I knew I was having problems with the files and I pleaded with Capo to let me resign from the game both nights so that I wouldnt slow them down and "ruin" their night.If I cant manipulate the files and I cant resign from the game what are my options??I further resent Capo dragging my fiance into this muck.

To this day I dont understand why my version of the game is not compatible with Capo's...I know that I can play this scenario with other players...maybe his version has some more grapes in it. It is kinda funny though.....you should see Italy...it almost has a purple glow to it....

[The Capo]

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Ming...I greatly appreciate your efforts to put a stop to Capo's unfair, irrational, and obscene remarks but it looks as if he wants to continue with the insults so maybe its time that I have my say in this.

I only agreed to join in Capo's diplogame after Aburtt had commited to play. Aburtt was one of the original pioneers of the diplogame concept back in 1999 and I had the pleasure of joining in that 1st diplogame with him, JB, Glohithia and others. Despite what Capo promised in his thread, I was never sent any files before the game was started.

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That's a lie.

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I contacted Capo while he was on ICQ the night before the game was to start and I requested both the game file and his "latest" version of the rules and new units but he dropped off ICQ without responding to me.

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I am not the only one that lives here, when AOL comes on so does ICQ, that was obviously not me. I would never do something like that.

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The next day, I went online for the game at the EXACT assigned time and was met with a barrage of impatient ICQ messages regarding being late and unprepared to start the game. If Capo really wanted to play all he had to do was ICQ the unzipped file to me. I have downloaded scores of games/saves/scenarios from dozens of players before but never had to deal with a zip file. So with Capo's "simple" instructions(along with numerous put downs, insults, and obscenities) I finally struggled through AOL Download Manager and Windows Explorer for the 1st time and loaded up his precious game under my scenario folder only to have Capo throw a temper tantrum and quit before we could test the game to make sure I had moved file/folders properly.

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You can ask anyone that was there for the first session, I did not do that at all, I was very patient with him and actually had to make efforts to relax the other players involved, his entire relation of the first session is a boldfaced lie.

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Contrary to what Capo said, I had no contact with him over the following week and I never assured him that my folder/file pathways matched his exactly(and I would have no way of knowing this unless we were to fire the game up together).

I honestly thought I had the game loaded properly. I was able to fire it up and play it from my scenario folder. I even ICQed the game to other players for their comment on it. I wanted other people to comment on the game because I felt that Capo had really roided up his starting position in Italy...3 grapes and a whale in his starting city and another grape and a whale for city #2 in Spain and a futher whale for #3 in southern Italy. No other civ had terrain even remotely close to that.

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I did not make this map, this map was created based on the Earth and her actual resources, it was told to me by the creator that since southern Europe has grapes, so shall this Europe. I chose Rome prior to the creation of this map, if you want the map you can ask me for it, he has exaggerated the amount of grapes in my starting city Radius. Why he has done this? I do not know.

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He originally stuck me out in the middle of the Sahara desert and when I questioned it he relented and moved me back to Zululand.

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I asked him which tribe he wanted to be in Africa, because he had agreed to play as an African tribe, he said it didn't matter, since I like the history of the Mali and the Songhai, I decided to make him the old Mali empire. Where else would I put the Mali? North America? I put the tribes where they start, everyone refer to either their map or historic memory, where is Timbuktu? That is where his starting location was, I even made the effort to "soften" his terrain so he had a better spot. I certainly did not "relent" and move him to Zululand. After he told me he would rather be the Zulu I had no problems moving him down there.

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His #1 city could theoretically by 2000 BC be producing 12 shields and 13 trade arrows at size 3. Then he changed the tech paradigm to 15/10 to slow everyone down and allow him to run the board on early wonders.

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To think that I did this is ridiculous. Ask anyone that was in this game why I slowed the tech, everyone knew I was slowing the tech and had the chance to look at the game and ask me to change any part before we started, including Nap, I sent the file out to everyone at the same time!

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Regardless of what Capo said, Ive got this game loaded and ready to go and I will be happy to ICQ and/or play it with anyone who is interested. My ICQ# is 37676739.

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I wasn't questioning his ability to play the game, it was a matter of having the game in the right directory, which even after numerous instructions were given, he failed to accomplish.


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Anyway we all showed up last Wed. night to play this thing. Just like what happened to me , Capo neglected to send the proper info on the game to Aburtt and he was having trouble joining the game.

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That isn't true, Aburtt had a patch that no other players had, therefore he was uncompatible with everyone else, there was NOTHING I could do about that.

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Some of the other players were upset and wanted to drop him but I argued for his inclusion in the game as I thought the way Aburtt was being treated was unfair and he was the only reason I had wanted to be in the game. I offered to host thinking that it might enhance
Aburtts compatiblity with the game and delayed the game a bit to give him a chance to sort things out on his computer. After a while Aburtt gave up and left and Capo dismissed him with a " f*** him, he's a f**" (asterisks not included)

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This is true, but I only said that after he (Aburtt) continued to try and connect, screwing up Chris' connection when he was trying to be host.

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and then he turned his wrath and mouth on me. Ten minutes of insults, verbal abuse, and file fumbling after Aburtt left I politely requested to resign from their game. Capo wouldnt let me and started an almost non-stop tirade of obscenities and insults. The whole night was like one long obscene phone call.....no better yet make that an obscene conference call...Capo wasnt the only one(Drake for his part was both helpful and congenial towards me)...

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Everyone tried to explain to him how to do this, and he still couldn't get it, even after simple cut and paste instructions he couldn't figure it out, the entire group was angry after two hours of delays and miscommunication. We didn't tell him NOT TO QUIT, or even force him, he said "I'll quit if it makes it easier" and I replied "If you quit we don't play, we need seven people." I never forced him to do anything.

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so I hung up on them. I didnt ruin their game or even their night. They can certainly play their diplogame without my presence.

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Yeah, but if you would have told us it was wrong prior to that time, and didn't waste two hours we could have found a sub and uploaded the files to him.

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I play Civ for fun and enjoyment...no one can force me to be in a game with so much verbal abuse going on. I'm not sure that the other players in the game even know this but I knew I was having problems with the files and I pleaded with Capo to let me resign from the game both nights so that I wouldnt slow them down and "ruin" their night.If I cant manipulate the files and I cant resign from the game what are my options??I further resent Capo dragging my fiance into this muck.

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I have no idea what he is talking about.

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To this day I dont understand why my version of the game is not compatible with Capo's...I know that I can play this scenario with other players...maybe his version has some more grapes in it. It is kinda funny though.....you should see Italy...it almost has a purple glow to it....

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Well, this is another example of how people attempt to make me out as the bad guy in this mess, I can only assure everyone that all players had a chance to look over the map, that it was sent to everyone before we started, and that Nap is embelishing some parts of his story in order to shed a negative light on me. I hope some other players that were present could at least tell people that a lot of what he is saying are lies.

Peace.

EDIT: Typo
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by The Capo (edited January 27, 2001).]</font>

[SunTzu]

Napoleon, your the biggest freakin lier. Yes you were there on time. And Capo sent you the files he already sent you the files! But you couldn't figure out how to put them in the correct directory, i don't see how someone can be so stupid. You had us waiting there for 2hours! Are you retarded? 2hours and you still couldn't get it right! If you would've told us that you couldn't do it at first, you would've saved us alot of time. Everyone thinks your an idiot, they're just not willing to say it. Capo wasn't the only cussing and pissed. Everyone was because you couldn't figure out how to move files that my little 7year old cousin can do.
If you can work a computer i'm surprised you could even start up civ2. You probably weren't trying to put in the files, you were probably ashamed because you couldn't find out how to run civ2!

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http://www.civfanatics.com Staff


Bah! Can't use my sig

[cavebear]

Capo - I will not respond to your message point-by-point. That path invites only endless debate. If you insist on it, and I have time, I can, but I don't think it will help at the moment.

I tried to give some advice, I tried to point out some areas where you might improve your orginizer skills, and I tried to give some support to Nap, whom (in my opinion) you have severely wronged.

The main point though, is that you need to strengthen some "organizer skills". You definately have some, but I think there are others required. It's not like these skills are ones that anyone is born with, they have to be learned and practiced (even in the face of adversity).

I understand your objections to my post. I will consider the failure to communicate them clearly to be my own failure to explain, not your failure to comprehend.

[Crustacian]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 01-27-2001 04:35 PM</font>

Nappy:
"I even ICQed the game to other players for their comment on it. I wanted other people to comment on the game because I felt that Capo had really roided up his starting position in Italy...3 grapes and a whale in his starting city and another grape and a whale for city #2 in Spain and a futher whale for #3 in southern Italy. No other civ had terrain even remotely close to that."


Capo:
"I did not make this map, this map was created based on the Earth and her actual resources, it was told to me by the creator that since southern Europe has grapes, so shall this Europe. I chose Rome prior to the creation of this map, if you want the map you can ask me for it, he has exaggerated the amount of grapes in my starting city Radius. Why he has done this? I do not know."


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by The Capo (edited January 27, 2001).]</font>
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There are three wines, and a whale 2 squares northwest of the Roman settler.

A wine and a whale can be had by the Zulu moving 1 square to the southwest.

India has a dynomite location 1 square away from a 4 special site. (gold, buffalo, oasis, pheasant on river if "mined" by a settler from the grassland)

Aztechs seem in a disadvantaged location.

But the thing that stands out to me about this map if it is supposed to represent actual resources:
"I did not make this map, this map was created based on the Earth and her actual resources, it was told to me by the creator that since southern Europe has grapes, so shall this Europe."

So "if it is in the world, so shall it be in this map"...

?Then where is the coal in eastern U.S, the gems and gold in South Africa, the oil in the middle east and Saudi, (there is certainly an abundance in the maps Australia with 7 oil there) and the oil in the North Sea? By the way, why is there wine in North Sweden?

The Columbia River and Fraisier River of western North America are not rightly represented.

But the map was a good map, and vegitaion terrain areas looked mostly realistic according to a map site I reviewed to compare.

There was a LOT of wine happening around Rome.

Justifying the Roman starting place and the original African starting place as coincidence...well maybe it was. But on this map I would not want to be Aztech's or the African's in their original spot without having a war strategy to compensate for close proximity neighbors with awesome locations.

African's as the Zulu tribe looks reasonable, and I can't see why this would not have been chosen in the first place.
But why not add the specials to the rest of the world in the same manner as you justify adding them to southern europe? Or the map creator, or whoever accepts responcibility for the starting areas of the players?

Gold and gems are just as valid in south africa as the wines in southern europe.

The original spot for the African's was not justifiable even if "softened" (i.e. relented) a bit because you have a personal interest in the culture of a tribe from that area. We are talking starting locations here. Altho if Nappy said he didn't care where, then in a way he left himself open to it.

So lets say I am in your game and say "yeah Africa is fine for me". You stick me in Tombouctou and I say "Hey whats up with this?" Then you say "hehe...just kidding, here ya go" <-----that makes more sense than "oh you are the ancient Mali's cuz I was impressed by their culture and thought it would be neat to stick you there and see how you do."

Or maybe I would be up to the challenge and just go for it. Aztechs also have a disadvantaged spot in your map compared to the others in general and maybe you should again relent and set them as a tribe in south america.

I was not in your game, but these things are of interest to me as far as starting locations go in a game. Also player attitudes interest me.


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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus

I can't be bothered reading this thread


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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

[The Capo]

That's not what occured, but I can understand that in a world that is interested in the non-personal aspects such as tech and "rates" and all sorts of things like that primarily, people may consider what occured to be cheating or attempting to slight other people.

I asked everyone who they wanted to be. Sun said Chinese, Chris said Russians, Mika said Indians (Drake eventually took his spot), Adam said Aztecs, Joe said Americans. Originally the African was supposed to be Ethiopia. But when I asked Nap which tribe he wanted to be, he said he didn't care as long as it was in Africa. I discussed it with numerous other players, most said it doesn't matter, after a discussion with Drake we figured it would be cool to have a Mali in the game. So that's where I put him, after I told him about it he said he would rather be the Zulu, I had no reservations and promptly made the changes. Don't know where you got the "hehe just kidding" BS from though.

I didn't soften the terrain because I was relenting, I softened the terrain because I felt that it was not right for someone to start out in the middle of a desert, I wanted everyone to start on grassland, so I changed some spaces on a river (where Timbuktu was) to be his starting location as the Mali. Again, I had NO PROBLEMS moving him to Zimbabwe. And you say the original spot was not justifiable, yeah it was man, the Mali start where the Mali were. I am not going to put the Mali down in Mozambique because that would be unaccurate, and I am quite sure any respectable Mali or Mozambiquean would be quite disrespected if I had done something like that. All players were told at the beginning of the game, you choose your tribe they start in their actual location, here's the file look it over and decide.

Which by the way proves Nap is lying, becuase if he had not recieved the game until we played, how would he have known about the Mali's "bad" starting location?

Again, I don't know why anyone has to "accept responsability" for the map, he has none in this case. He made a map, I used it, I sent it to everyone beforehand and they had their chance to complain and I would have been more than happy to change the map as long as the request was reasonable.

"But on this map I would not want to be Aztech's or the African's in their original spot without having a war strategy to compensate for close proximity neighbors with awesome locations."

Thus is the essence of a Diplogame.

"Then where is the coal in eastern U.S, the gems and gold in South Africa, the oil in the middle east and Saudi, (there is certainly an abundance in the maps Australia with 7 oil there) and the oil in the North Sea? By the way, why is there wine in North Sweden?"

I didn't make the map, but the only thing I can think of is that the creator was doing his best job, and I think its unfair to use this particular factor against anyone involved because everyone had the chance to say something, and like I said, I would have been more than happy to make any changes requested.

By the way if someone wants to get an explaination of how the map looks its simple. To the left of Italy there is an island meant to represent Corsica and Sardinia, on this island there is a hill and thus a "Wine" resource. Above the Alps there is a hill that has a whine resources, to the west of the Alps there is a hill in southern France with a wine resource and in Spain there is a wine resource. That is what everyone is complaining about.

But the fact is, this was intended as a Diplogame, and things like that weren't what the group was thinking about (at least not most of us). The "bad" starting location of the Aztecs was compramised by their good geographic location:

They had a better shot at getting the Pacific coastline and west of the Miss river than the Yanks did. They could make a strong bid for the entire Gulf of Mexico, and had direct control of South America right from the start as the Americans would have to make a strong movement through central America, or build up a strong fleet. Therefore their starting location is justified. In a Diplogame things like that must be considered, if one fails to recognize hidden advantages in a Diplogame, one will be destroyed. If anyone has played a Diplogame "regular skill/regular resources" are not as much a factor as the strategical savy of the leader.

Even the worst Civ player could be a very effective Diplogamer, its all in the style, so while its important to have good resources, its even more important to have the skills to delegate your resources (however meager) into the best possible political situations. What I am, in essence, saying, mere resources are not the only indication of a good location.

The thing is, I personally do not think about things like resources and what has the better terrain before I start any Diplogame, I always think about the personality of the leader in the game. If one focuses on mere civ aspects, and plays in a duel-esque fasion, they will be quickly taken advantage of by the Diplogamer.

[aburtt]

Ming,
Please put an end to this. This forum has never been about flames and rants. I would like to comment on the things said here, but I will refrain. This forum is about playing and a community where civ fans can come to play and learn. Please end this. Thank you.
Adam

[The Capo]

Ming I urge you not to close this thread down for numerous reasons. Whether or not it was warranted, my "repute" is being called into question by numerous people, I believe I have a right to defend my position, especially in the face of outright lies and miscommunications on the part of Nap Bonaparte, and not oddly enough the very man who wishes to close down this thread Aburtt.

Furthermore, this thread adds more to the discussion of in game etiquette, what is wrong and what is right, and if such issues are ignored simply because they give some people a bad feeling in their stomachs, then that is not in the best interests of Apolyton and this particular forum.

The incident calls into question numerous issues during Multiplay, and I think if we just ignore it altogether then we are doing a disservice to the community....

The base word of ignorance, after all, is IGNORE.

Peace.

[Ming]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 01-28-2001 11:53 AM</font>
Ming I urge you not to close this thread down for numerous reasons.

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Yeah, there are some good reasons not to close this threads down... But there is a BIGGER REASON to close it down... YOUR STINKING HOLIER THAN THOU ATTITUDE in combonation with YOU CONTINUING TO INSULT PEOPLE!

You want to have a discussion about the relative merits of a map, game, style of play... FINE!
But do it WITHOUT continuing your childish tirade against people.

So enough of this crap... start another thread if you are going to discuss the game... but if you do it just so you can rag on people some more, you can find some other forum to act like a brat on!

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net