Keygen's Factions Strife!

[Keygen]

Well, you have read the email I suppose .
You know what to do.
Anyway I post the same here so you won't need to keep the email ->


1. SMACX 2.0 will be used. If someone doesn't have it (I doubt) then email us and will start a SMAC instead.

2. Accelerated start: 200 energy credits extra, 3 colony pods, 5 intepended scout patrols (The Pirates will take 4 foils instead and the Spartans 3 scouts & 2 speeders instead), 3 intepended formers (Is it possible? Pirates will take 3 sea formers) and one free Level 1 Tech (two for the Univ.).

3. Each faction will preserve its own characteristics. The Belivers will suffer the 10 turns penalty.

4. MSN will possibly be DilithiumDad. He will be responsible for creating the above "scenario".

5. Everyone will email MSN his/her preferable extra tech and password.

6. Player's faction and order will be:
a) Keygen -> The University
b) Solver -> Consciousness
c) Tau Ceti -> Spartans
d) Googlie -> Pirates
e) Big Kanuk -> Morganites
f) Misotu -> Hive
g) Mark13 -> Peecekeepers

7. Rules:
Huge Map of the Planet
All winning conditions on
Thinker lavel
Blind research off (Directed)
Random events off
Restart eliminated players on
Everything else default

8. For any question or objection refer to the "Keygen's Factions Strife!" topic.

9. Game will launch on Friday 26 January 2001.

[Rynn:]

K:

I disagree with #2, #6 and #7.

************************************************** ***************

re # 2:

Making all the factions equal re energy credits takes away an inbuilt game balancer for Morgan.

Giving everyone an extra tech and the Uni two removes one of the crucial early game decisions that players must make re their research

Giving everyone the same # colony pods removes the slight growth disadvantage the CC has (and the Pirates, if I play as them) and nullifies the slight growth advantage the Hive has.

But most of all, you've removed the element of choice - of planning what our early faction and society will look like, and created imbalance ab initio

IMHO hardly an auspicious opening for a ratings test game.

************************************************** ****************

re # 6:

I'll play as the Believers

************************************************** ********************

re # 7:

Very few PBEMs are played on the MoP because we all know it so intimately. The landmarks are not dropped randomly but occur in the same location each time (unless the CMN alters them).

But more importantly, it removes any sense of dicovery, of being on a new planet, of exploring.

Bluntly, I'm not interested in playing the MoP.

Rynn


[This message has been edited by Rynn: (edited January 23, 2001).]

[mark13]

Yeah, I pretty much concur with Rynn on this one - there isn't much point in playing the Map of Planet - it just doesn't interest me any more, to put not too fine a point on it.

Regarding the starting units, I think the 'whatsits' system made the most sense. Morgan should, as usual, start with an extra 100 credits, and the Believers their inherent 10 year penalty. This would remove complication, and play the game how it was meant to be played.

BTW, it's the CMN, not the MSN

[Misotu]

Um ... I thought we were taking the original 7 factions but in a SMAX setting?

[big_canuk]

Keygen, call me what you like, but I think the following ideas are interesting and could be "built in", if you would like.

1. The whatsits system

2. No extra techs, which negates UoP, and possibly Gaian advantage

3. More than normal starting ecs on an additive, rather than multiplicative basis, would negate a Morgan advantage.

4. Maaap of Plaaanet is a dog (or possibly a goat)

[Misotu]

Big_C are you suggesting removing starting techs? I'm not sure why we'd do this? In a way, perhaps it might increase the UoP advantage. They can make up a lost tech pretty fast, but for a faction like the Believers, losing a tech means nothing to trade ...

Rynn, I couldn't take the Gaians now ... not after our agreement, and getting Tau to suffer -1 industry 'n all

PS I vote for the whatsits system and against the Map of Planet. I don't think we should mess around with the factions and I still think we should take the original 7, with the Gaians in and the CyC out ...
[This message has been edited by Misotu (edited January 23, 2001).]

[big_canuk]

Misotu:

No, I was clear as mud again. I am in favour of a "normal" tech start. Normal starting techs for all factions, plus a freebie for the UoP.

[Keygen]

OK, first of all I must say as stated before that the rules will be determined by all of us, not me.
If arguments come up for any rule that will be proposed by a player then the majority will determine wether the rule will be applied or declined.
This game came up after Solver's desire to join his first SMAC/X PBEM game which would be rated also.
I took the initiative on starting a game.
Solver is an experienced SMAC player but newbie to SMAC PBEM although he has joined several CTP PBEM so he could be consider not new to the PBEM idea.
My first post was an introduction to start from somewhere as the emails didn't help much. Some points are my requests and some would be more questions than requests.

OK, lets see every reply in detail:

Googlie (Rynn)


Comment:

quote: Originally posted by Rynn: on 01-23-2001 07:02 PM re # 2: Making all the factions equal re energy credits takes away an inbuilt game balancer for Morgan. Giving everyone an extra tech and the Uni two removes one of the crucial early game decisions that players must make re their research Giving everyone the same # colony pods removes the slight growth disadvantage the CC has (and the Pirates, if I play as them) and nullifies the slight growth advantage the Hive has. But most of all, you've removed the element of choice - of planning what our early faction and society will look like, and created imbalance ab initio IMHO hardly an auspicious opening for a ratings test game.

Answer:
I have post that each faction will preserve its own characteristics. That means that the Morganites will take 100 gold extra as usual. As far as I remember you had recommended the 200 gold as an alternative accelerated start. And most of us liked the idea.
I would recommend 100 gold each and 200 gold the Morganites.
By preserving each factions individuality I don't thing we would agitate the balance. It's really boring to wait a couple of months to grow some and make contact with another faction. That is the reason for my suggestion on an accelerated start. To constrain to minimum the boredom of a slow standard start.
And I don't thing that a couple of colony pods and some scouts would removed the element of choice.
Anyway if no accelerated start is a common will then I will accept it .


Comment:

quote: Originally posted by Rynn: on 01-23-2001 07:02 PM re # 6: I'll play as the Believers

Answer:
Sure its fine by me!
You said that you wanted the Pirates if SMACX would be the one to play.


I>Comment[/i]:

quote: Originally posted by Rynn: on 01-23-2001 07:02 PM re # 7: Very few PBEMs are played on the MoP because we all know it so intimately. The landmarks are not dropped randomly but occur in the same location each time (unless the CMN alters them). But more importantly, it removes any sense of dicovery, of being on a new planet, of exploring. Bluntly, I'm not interested in playing the MoP. Rynn

Answer:
I must have mistaken an email of yours. I though when you had said Huge Planet that you ment Huge Map of Planet. Well I don't mind at all if it's gonna be a random one although a known map would accelerate contact. But it truly "kills" the beauty of the unknown.


Mark13


Comment:

quote: Originally posted by mark13 on 01-23-2001 07:21 PM Yeah, I pretty much concur with Rynn on this one - there isn't much point in playing the Map of Planet - it just doesn't interest me any more, to put not too fine a point on it. Regarding the starting units, I think the 'whatsits' system made the most sense. Morgan should, as usual, start with an extra 100 credits, and the Believers their inherent 10 year penalty. This would remove complication, and play the game how it was meant to be played. BTW, it's the CMN, not the MSN

Answer:
Well, no MoP then .
As I said, 100 gold extra for the Morganites.
What do you mean by "whatsits"? The defaults of the factions?
Really? Common man, I know it's CMN (Creator-Moderator-Narrator, right?) I was just talking to icq that time about the MSN messenger .


Misotu

Comment:

quote: Originally posted by Misotu on 01-23-2001 07:39 PM Um ... I thought we were taking the original 7 factions but in a SMAX setting?

Answer:
I don't care. What ever you like. SMACX was the desire of the majority.


Comment:

quote: Originally posted by Misotu on 01-23-2001 08:33 PM Big_C are you suggesting removing starting techs? I'm not sure why we'd do this? In a way, perhaps it might increase the UoP advantage. They can make up a lost tech pretty fast, but for a faction like the Believers, losing a tech means nothing to trade ... Rynn, I couldn't take the Gaians now ... not after our agreement, and getting Tau to suffer -1 industry 'n all PS I vote for the whatsits system and against the Map of Planet. I don't think we should mess around with the factions and I still think we should take the original 7, with the Gaians in and the CyC out ...

Answer:
Although I had started playing the game from the date it was released in Greece I haven't play many games (single or mp) so I don't consider my self experienced. I guess I don't know yet how to take advantage of all the UoP's characteristics.
I vote for an extra tech!
No MoP and if Solver don't have any problem he will accept I think the Gaians.


Big Kanuk

Comment:

quote: Originally posted by big_canuk on 01-23-2001 08:24 PM Keygen, call me what you like, but I think the following ideas are interesting and could be "built in", if you would like. 1. The whatsits system 2. No extra techs, which negates UoP, and possibly Gaian advantage 3. More than normal starting ecs on an additive, rather than multiplicative basis, would negate a Morgan advantage. 4. Maaap of Plaaanet is a dog (or possibly a goat)

Answer:
If no extra tech is a common will then no extra tech will be .
100 gold for each and 200 golds for Morganites wouldn't negate any advantage.
MoP is not a beloved one as I see . OK...OK...No Map of Planet.


Comment:

quote: Originally posted by big_canuk on 01-23-2001 09:04 PM Misotu: No, I was clear as mud again. I am in favour of a "normal" tech start. Normal starting techs for all factions, plus a freebie for the UoP.

Answer:
If the majority wants to, yeah sure but it would give us all a faster "tech" start.

Damn! Quite a long post .
Well, expecting your answers to follow soon .

[Googlie]

Keygen - et al:

I purposefully called the start-game purchase units "whatsits" to avoid confusion with energy credits. Call them "marks" for want of a better term.

Each player starts the game with 200 marks out of which sum s/he "purchases" their desired starting position (a mix of colony pods, scouts and formers, or rovers in Sparta's case)

Thus if I am a low-growth faction (say the CC) I might opt for 6 colony pods and a former, relying on internal building to get my scouts and formers.

If I am Sparta, I might take 1 pod, 1 former and five rovers, and go looking for others to subjugate.

If I have no problem growing (say the Believers), but want to have a good energy production after turn ten, I can choose, say, 3 colony pods and five formers, and have a solar colelctor park built (small one) by 2111.

The whole point is, this is an accelerated start technique that doesn't imbalance the play of the factions because they are choices the individual player made, recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of their faction

Somewhat arbitrary additional credits and the same number of units for each, while seemingly egalitarian, actually distorts the built in balance inherent in each faction.

I don't want to be picky, but let's not just blindly rush into a game that we'll be playing for the next 9 months or so, and that'll be used as a benchmark for the ladders system, and risk a premature drop-out of someone muttering "the start was fixed to favor so-and-so"

Apart from the various tourneys (and thanks Tau Ceti and mark13 for seting these up) which have had a lot of up-front work done by the tourney administrator, I've found that the games that collapse or frustratingly need to be restarted are those where insufficient up-front work hasn't been done.

We play for fun, and I expect (if this game lasts 300 turns) to be investing some 100 to 150 hours on it in the next year. In that context, I don't begrudge the time taken initially to "get it right"

(End of sermon)

Googlie

(Ah, the advantages of being an old fart)

[Tau Ceti]

Edit: Ah, Googlie beat me to it. Well, the last line is still relevant.

Keygen, what Googlie actually suggested was a system where every faction got 200 'whatsits', as they have now been known - essentially mineral credits - to use for purchasing starting units. Colony Pods cost 30, scouts 10, formers 20 etc. That would give us a choice of what starting units we would like, and that was what everyone supported so far.

I also hate the Map of Planet, and would prefer a standard tech start.
[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited January 24, 2001).]

[Keygen]

Obviously I hadn't understand what exactly you ment with it .
I guess I've got misleaded from my experience in CTP. Things there are quit different. After a year being CTP PBEM gamer I could be consider an old fart too

Anyway, this one sounds far better accelerated start than the one I had proposed.
I guess the emails wasn't so informative .

Questions:
1. Googlie's fast start?
2. Second free tech?
3. Factions?
4. SMAC or SMACX?
5. Map of Planet?

I answer:
1. Yes
2. Don't care
3. University
4. Don't care
5. Random

What's your answer? Waiting .

quote: Originally posted by Googlie on 01-24-2001 10:43 AM We play for fun, and I expect (if this game lasts 300 turns) to be investing some 100 to 150 hours on it in the next year. In that context, I don't begrudge the time taken initially to "get it right"

It will be fun to play with you guys with the right start! I completely agree with you Googlie you old fart .

[Keygen]

quote: Originally posted by Tau Ceti on 01-24-2001 10:45 AM Edit: Ah, Googlie beat me to it. Well, the last line is still relevant. Keygen, what Googlie actually suggested was a system where every faction got 200 'whatsits', as they have now been known - essentially mineral credits - to use for purchasing starting units. Colony Pods cost 30, scouts 10, formers 20 etc. That would give us a choice of what starting units we would like, and that was what everyone supported so far. I also hate the Map of Planet, and would prefer a standard tech start. [This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited January 24, 2001).]

OK Tau Ceti, I got it!
I would like you or Googlie to send me an email whenever is possible and if not hard to do to explain me how exactly is this made.

[Tau Ceti]

1. Yes
2. No
3. Spartans
4. SMACX
5. No, random

There is, however, one problem with Googlie's system. The CMN is supposed to set up balanced starting positions. Now let us say I take the 5 rovers. What does the CMN do? He has three options.

1. He places me on an island or somewhere else isolated. Game ruined for me.

2. He places me next to a builder-type player with 6 pods. Game ruined for him.

3. He places me next to another momentumer who has chosen 10 scouts or so. We spend the first 40 years beating each other to death, while everyone else builds up in peace. Game ruined for both of us.

It looks like going extremely offensive with your starting units will only create problems. Maybe we need some restrictions, either written or voluntary...

[big_canuk]

1. Yes
2. No
3. Morgan
4. smacx
5. No, random


Tau:

I would say the UPN, should pick the locations first, and then get the units. 6 CPs, or 5 rovers, are both extremes, and you should suffer if you pick either and are unlucky. Of course, Tau, if you are saying that you will voluntarily limit yourself to no more than 2 rovers, then I will feel a lot better picking 6 CPs.

[Googlie]

Fast start procedure:

Each player selects from the 'store' those pods/units he or she wants, spending 200 whatsits (all units are 'Independent')

Price:

Colony Pod 30
Sea Pod (Pirates only) 30
Unity Rover (Sparta only) 30
Unity Foil 30
gun foil (Pirates only) 30
Former 20
Scout 10

We e-mail the CMN (Dilithium Dad?) our selection, plus the University tells DD what free tech he wants, and the password we want to use (or he will choose one for each and so advise us).

These goodies are in in addition to the normal starting unit the game provides at the thinker level (i.e. not the 2 colony pods, but the independent scout each of the five other factions get and the Unity Rover Sparta gets and the gunfoil the Pirates get)

DD sets it up thru the scenario editor, on a "look first" basis, balancing each faction's start position, and setting each faction in turn with the password. He'll save as a game, and send to the first on the list who will then start playing by moving the pods, units, formers etc.

(I suggest we load the factions in the Firaxis order rather than changing, so the graphics will be true to the game - this would mean that the Gaians would start - if Solver plays as the Gaians - or the Consciousness would be second last if he plays as Aki - the Pirates will be last under both choices)

(And Tau, if indeed it is started thru the scenario - which I believe it needs to be for this method - can you ensure that Dilithium Dad is aware of the difficulty bug and how to fix it?)

I'll post the Chiron Winter rules to see if we want to abide by them for gameplay (they took a month to determine, with lots of input from Mose - - and Aredhran)

G.


[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited January 24, 2001).]

[Rynn:]

Hmmmm - Pirates would be a lot of fun with this crowd

1. Yes
2. No
3. Pirates
4. smacx
5. No, Random

[Googlie]

TC:

I wrestled a bit with an extra cost for the sea colony pods (and forgot about sea formers). I started seven games on the parameters we had chosen, one for each faction, and you are right, the Pirates start with 2 pods and a gun foil, Sparta has 2 pods and a scout rover, and everyone else 2 pods and a scout infantryman. To my mind Firaxis made no differentiation (perhaps recognizing the - 1 growth penalty of the Pirates) and we have decided not to bend any other Firaxis rule for fear of upsetting a delicate game balance)

True, they get a Pressure Dome in each base. But the Hive get a Perimeter Defense, the Uni get a Network Node, Morgan gets his extra credits, and the PK's get their extra 2 pop before hab limits breached.

So why single out the Pirates?

When I devised the "purchase formula" a year or so ago it was only with the original factions in mind. I'll do a little scenario testing for mature bases (i.e. with the requisite techs) to see what comparative costs colony pods and formers have (i.e. we know that sea pods and sea formers are more expensive for a land-based faction to produce, but are they comparatively more expoensive for Sven? IIRC when playing the Pirates land CP's were cheaper than sea ones, so maybe you have a point.

Don't go away, I'll be right back .............



Googlie

[big_canuk]

Googlie:

You can always go back to being the Believers.

[Googlie]

b_c:

Hey, that's true (but I've never played as the Pirates in a PBEM, so it'd be a first to see how it stacks up against other human players - the AI plays it stupidly, and in a human's hands against the AI it's overpowering, but against other humans ...........)

(and Ulrika-Rynn Svensgaard has a certain ring to it, don't you think?)

G.

[big_canuk]

quote: Originally posted by Googlie on 01-24-2001 01:57 PM So why single out the Pirates?

I don't think this is singling out the Pirates. It seems we agree the Spartans should have a cost 30 scout rover, to avoid the rover rush.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to charge 40 or 50 whatsits for a Sea CP, since it includes tanks. Instead of 4 FOP from your initial colony, you will get 7. Seems a 33 or 66% increase in cost would be a bargain.

[Googlie]

FOP ??

[big_canuk]

FOP = Factors of Production

Normal base = 2/1/1 = 4

Base with Recycle Tanks or Pressure
Dome = 3/2/2 = 7

I think?

[Googlie]

The issue is, how fast can the respective factions expand.

For 150 whatsits the landbased players can found five bases and the next five take 14 turns (at one new pod per base after the first scout)

With Sven, assuming the same cost structure, 150 gets 5 bases, and the next five (at 1 per base) take 24 turns if seapods or 20 if a landpod/transport combo

I think I'm talking myself into arguing that the seapods should be cheaper than the landpods in the start-up



(The only slight advantage - that prolly balances things out - is that Sven can put distance between the pods faster than a landbased faction (unless use is made of rivers)

I think the cost should be the same.

Googlie

[Googlie]

Ah - no, not quite correct

Pirates, sea base HQ - no goody squares

4 nuts, 3 mins, 3 energy

Land faction, land base HQ - no goody squares

3 nuts, 2 mins, 2 energy

(exactly the effect of building recycling tanks at the land base)

Second base:

Pirates 4/3/2

land faction 3/2/1


Again, exactly the effect of building recycling tanks at the land base

(And don't the Uni get a NN at every base that the Pirates have to build, and don't the Hive get a PD at every base that the Pirates have to build and dont ...........

G.


[This message has been edited by Googlie (edited January 24, 2001).]

[big_canuk]

Nope, I just tested it.

Started a game with Lal. HQ was 2/1/2 (one extra energy casuse of HQ)
2nd base was 2/1/1

Pirates were 3/2/3, and 3/2/2 respectivly.

I found a further *big* advantage of the pirates is that within 2 turns, all of their highly productive bases will be established, whereas the land based factions may still be spreading, and may have established no bases or only 1 or 2. This is a *huge* turn advantage on its own. Couple this with Huge Planet and lots of unoccupied land, of which the Pirates can take advantage, and I think some additional cost is warranted. (Possibly even the full 60 or 70 cost of a Sea Colony Pod)

Being Morgan, I could always vote for the 30 whatsit level for say 100 ecs at turn 30 and 100 ecs every 20 turns thereafter.

[This message has been edited by big_canuk (edited January 24, 2001).]

[Rynn:]

Exactly b_c - the difference is in the automatic recycling tanks which give a 1-1-1.

But of course I won't be able to do anything with that turn advantage except build like crazy to get Network Nodes and Perimeter defenses and accumulate energy credits just to gain parity with everyone else.

But OK - I'll play as the Believers and make the whole debate moot.

Sister Rynn Googlieson

[This message has been edited by Rynn: (edited January 24, 2001).]

[big_canuk]

LOL

[Solver]

OK, here are my words on this, and that's my final:
I'm Prime Function Solver, no map of planet. I would also like to have the starting tech, and one more for Keygen, to speed the game up. Next, I vote for Googlie's "whatsit's" instead of the same for everyone. So, when we are finished, we should try to launch it at Friday, as Keygen said. Who then is CMN?

quote: Solver is an experienced SMAC player but newbie to SMAC PBEM although he has joined several CTP PBEM so he could be consider not new to the PBEM idea.

Surely, I don't consider myself being new to PBEM, as my Ladders system needs some experience. Actually, Civilization is the first game I really loved, and all of the Civ games, incuding SMAX, are yet my favorite game series.
I know I'm a SMAC PBEM newbie, but I won't consider myself one as soon as I join some 4 PBEMs. But so far, please be tolearnt to the questions I may be asking here. And on of them comes here - does SMAC automatically save the turn for the next player on the Desktop or not?

------------------
Solver - http://www.aok.20m.com

[Googlie]

Solver:

When you click on the "turn complete" button, it'll prompt you for a savefile name. The default directory should be C:/programs/firaxis games/sid meier's alpha centauri/saves, but sometimes it will inexplicably move you up a level so that you inadvertently save in the s...m...a...c... folder.

So it doesn't save in your desktop unless you specifically enter that string in.

But when you are zipping the file, most zip utilities (I've found anyway) will default save the zip file to the desktop, which makes it easy for attaching to e-mails.

G

[Tau Ceti]

A couple of comments on the purchase system:

Sea formers should probably be added.

I am not sure a price of 30 for sea colony pods is fair. I know, the Pirates do usually start with as many pods as everyone else, and the full cost of 70 is clearly excessive, but they do get a free Pressure Dome in each of those bases, which is a large advantage. When they can start with transports as well, they can expand onto land almost immediately, removing their last early disadvantage. With all this, I do not think a price hike to at least 40 would be too much.

The Spartans start with Scout Rovers, not Unity Rovers. No big thing, but Unity Rovers cannot be upgraded in the workshop, and it means they will not need to prototype the rover chassis. (Of course, that is arguably a disadvantage for the Spartans! )

big_canuk's idea about the starting positions sounds very good. Of course, it means the CMN must create the world first so that he is not influenced by the player's unit choices, and we should delay sending those emails. I have not talked to D-Dad yet as it is nice to at least reach agreement on the world parameters before asking for a game. Everyone seems to agree on huge random planet, average everything, but what about pods?

And I think we should leave the starting date up to the CMN. It is bad form to demand that the game be ready at a specific time. This will take months anyway, so if we have to wait another day or four, it is no calamity.