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Old May 17, 1999, 23:34   #1
KenThur
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4000-775BC Report on 1st 2 sessions from Milo the pudtz, of the hapless Vikings:
Well, my start was just the opposite of S'Fart's... seriously flawed & w/o luck, except the bad kind.
1st move, i jumped a hut in a hill next to me & it was already abandoned! So fearing the barb's at the diety level & wanting to get a qick start on my 1st city, i built it there... not particularily smart due to lack of trade/revenue/research potential.
Set about building roads & warriors to figure out where i was & find more huts. Found 2 more abanoned huts(!)+a little gold & a couple of cheap advances. Soon figured out i was on an island continent with no else to work with.
Finally got a 2nd city, very well positioned, & monarchy so improvements are starting to pay off.
Just started my 1st port city; gotta get seaborn & find some allies! Again was able to pick whatever spot i desired (1 advantage of being all by yourself... U win all the disputes!), so got an excellent, defendable, productive spot. Soon it will be anchors away! Rape, pillage, kiss ass, whatever it takes to catch up.
Since i'm the "punyest civ on earth", the barbs have left me alone except for 1 raid. But just to show my luck... i rush-finish my 1st horseman(at great expense to my little treasury) thinking ah-ha! They'll smash themselves against my hilltop capital & i'll collect my 150 gold bonus from their leader!! My luck, they attack & the leader dies in the assualt!!!! So much for that strategy. (:-[
So i'm cast in the roll of being a good host & maybe someday, the swing vote in someone else's big story. Ah well, THEY'RE the ones that didn't want this contest ranked. Good for me?

PS: i still feel that RANDOM worlds are MUCH MORE enjoyable & challenging; the only way to go. In 2 sessions we already know how 3/4's of the playing field's layout & the relative advantages of every civ's lands = not near as fun.

[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited May 18, 1999).]
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Old May 18, 1999, 00:35   #2
SmartFart
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Tales from the Diplomatic Front II (in 3D-Dolby Stereo)
casting (in order of appearance) :
-japanese,by grau gheist
-vikings,by milo
-croatians,by smartfart
-chinese,by geronimo
-english,by jimbob

special guests :
-russians,by pastieman
-sioux,by john

yahoo!!! i've finally managed to get involved into my favorite type of civ2 multiplayer,or in other words:

-deity
-x1x1
-7 civs
-large world map with randomized starting locations

story so far:

i got a starting location in a northeastern europe. after build my capital,i've used my 2nd settlers to make a road to the west till i found apropriate place for my 2nd city. when i found a good spot it was already occupied by a hut. my settler bravely step on it and found an advanced tribe. thats what i call a good start. since i was on a largest land mass in the world,there was a good chance to find at least 3 other civ in europe-asia-africa. later,i've found 4 of them. my first contact was english,controlled by ai at the moment. only one turn later i've met sioux,controlled by ai as well. i decided to expand and to build a decent military to ensure my surpreme power,because i wanted some tribute from ai. it worked well. very soon i got 150 from english and the same ammount from sioux. bad things was barbarians. they picked on me pretty hard at this early stage and almost all my gold went to some offensive units,but i managed to keep all my cities intact.
meanwhile,chinese horseman arrived close to my capital. it was fairly defended,but i didn't wanted a war with chinese,so we've established our border.its not cleared yet,but we've agreed about his farthest city on the west and vice versa. as soon as someone take over siouxes,i'll establish my border with them also. one of my units entered africa and found one english undefended city size 1. since i didn't wanted a war with english as well i proceeded south and met with japanese warrior. thats where a diplomacy started to take some place. english demanded that my horseman leave africa immediately or it will be killed. of course,he did that after my horseman was on some distance from his undefended city. anyway i claimed my right to explore and we've managed to clear out that situation w/o war. obviously,euro-asia-africa will be soon too small for 5 of us and my first trireme went to discover a new world. i've already dicovered that am not only one who wants to settle there. one loaded trireme,carrying a flag of one of my opponents is one square ahead of me. i think i know his destination.

to be continued...

epiloque: its 775 bc now. i have some lead,but nothing serious. no contacts with russians and vikings,but judging by our in-game chatting i suppose where they are. this is going to be a great game. so far,all players know their job more than well. every single one square of a land will be important. now is a race for grassland,but i bet that grenland will be settled as well as sahara.

i would like to hear points of view of other involved players. of course,noone will reveal their strategies,pacts,or whatever you want to keep for yourself,but some general info could be interesting.

cya all at 9 pm est

sf

p.s. zorry four mi eengleesh


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Old May 18, 1999, 13:20   #3
Grau Geist
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We have heard through the embassies that the sioux nation, based somewhere in central asia has become a bit of a scoundrel nation. These militaristic people shall be irradicated from the planet if the need persists. It is in the best interest of the world that a coup d'tat be supported by all nations involved. I propose that the evil chief AI be replaced by a more hospitable leader, preferably a human one (aliens need not apply).

The call is out for dedicated leaders to send their resumes to "topple the damn sioux" at ICQ# 38171961 do it now and receive a free set of steak knives (used by militia) or BBQ skewers (used by archers) or write to us here!!
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Old May 18, 1999, 23:31   #4
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Jimbob here.
I came in at 2000 B.C. and while the computer had done things differnetly than I would have, oh well. My civilization, the English, suffers from a disease called punyism. We are small, making us vulnerable to Sioux(losers) attacks. I also became nervous when I spotted a Croation horseman in my territory. Luckily, it was only exploration, but I raised the alarm anyway, and thanks to the diplomacy, he removed it. Increasing my feeling of security. I would love it if a reasonable, decent leader (not the AI) took over the Sioux, and conducted affairs accordingly.


------------------
Civilization Forever!

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Old May 20, 1999, 08:11   #5
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correction.
i didn't removed that horseman. sioux did it with a charriot. 2nd sneak attack so far. am glad matt will take over sioux. some other matt,not geronimo btw.
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Old May 22, 1999, 18:53   #6
Grau Geist
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our great friend the king of the English has been ousted from his thrown by the evil emperor AI. AI abdicated his thrown of the Sioux Empire to an apparent reasonable individual King Icer. I have keptmy distance from the English during this time of instability, my only hope is that we may effectively rout the evil AI and restore the rightful monarch Jimbob. Can we convince Jimbob to come out of retirement? or do we need to restore order with another dynasty?

This formative period of our world, roughly 975 bc to 300 bc has had its share of war at the cross roads of the earth, the middle east, will this continue to be a hot spot for conflict as the civilizations of the earth meet on a common ground?

The world is still in a period of expansion and from my point of view conflict has yet to rear its head because their are plenty of resources to gp around. As for the purpose of my civilization I am on a journey to rediscover the world, I have yet to meet all of the civilizations, and I'm not sure I want to right now, the Japanese are content with trading posts throughout the world to foster trade and profit for JAPAN, realizing that such trade will benefit the recipient as well. So If you see a ship out in the horizon Painted green as the trees, welcome it with open arms for soon to follow will be wealth for all.

Now I do want to address the founding of a city so close the the radius of my own by an unnamed exploring civilization. I fear that the future development and true growth potential of my trading post is going to be hindered by the haphazard placement of said offending city. With the aforementioned vast tracts of land still available on earth I can't imagine why an apparent placement was even necessary, I hope in the future the existance of this city will not be a barricade to the growth of my people. I am sure the owner would not let that happen. Trade is in the best interest of my civilization and GEMS are a great source for trade. What exactly are your intentions?

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Old May 22, 1999, 21:42   #7
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to japanese: apparently,same as yours. yeah,i wish i looked around first ,but didn't expected you all way down there.
anyway...we've builded that two cities almost in same turn.furthermore,you don't suppose you have right to claim all south america for yourself,do you? btw. your 2nd kyoto has been builded very close to one of my cities and we've overlaping one square. i haven't protested cuz of that and i expect you do the same. i have no intentions to build anymore overlaping cities,but we have to exchange maps to avoid situations like this one.

225 bc...our empire is strong now. with a clear border to the east and south,brave pikemen defending cities under our young republic. fast charriots hunting barbarian leaders who dares to cross my borders.
my people now enjoying watching the hanging gardens of teotihuacan and harvesters are double productive than before,thanks to the pyramids of tlatelolco. all seems well for now. except that both japanese and me choosed same ground to expand. so far,our peace was an example. i hope we will continue that way.

sf

p.s.
-would you defend your cities with haystacks noble leader? build city walls and other improvement later.
-excellency,we're the most enlighted empire in the world...i salute you
-most blessed leader,let us build marketplaces,so that the peasants can barter for needed goods.
-the gods adore you,noble leader and distant lands favour our mighty empire
-no complaints,noble leader
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Old May 23, 1999, 08:43   #8
KenThur
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S'Fart; you are going to make it so easy to be the guy-we-love-to-hate. And at this point in our world history (225BC), i hate to pay U homage, but U deserve credit for taking a good starting position & making it better.

As for the puny Vikings down under, we're just bumbling along with our 3 cities. Getting hit at the MOST inopportune moments by LEADERLESS barbs that screw up what production plans i do have & yet never provide the opportunity for me to make a quick tresurary boost.
Despite this we FINALLY have a ship out seeking to make contact. Interesting scenerio wherein 1 civ is so islolated that, tho they want to, other major civ's just don't have the wherewithall to spare the resources to make contact.
We've had a # of player changes & sub's. But for the most part the transitions have been smooth & our budding civ's are moving slowly (w/ the above noted exception) forward.

PS: reminder to all players permanent & sub's... when U finally making contact with the backwards aborigines/Vikings, be nice. Tips(gold, not suggestions!) WILL BE accepted for at least being a good fast, stable host. Huh? Please? We need it!
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Old May 24, 1999, 16:48   #9
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As the king of the Japanese Trade Federation, I must protest the accusations proclaimed by the SUPERIOR strengthed Croatians! Thanks for revealing yourself to everyone by the way. Your counter claim does no more than shrug off my concerns over poor city placement. Your city in question is a mere two spaces from mine in a poorly placed geographical space, what possible growth do you expect to gain from such a placement? Real productivity from such a city could only come later with the development of miniturization! Also, my city existed at least 100 years before yours! Now, I do not have any designs on claiming the whole of south america to myself, nor do I have the ability AS YOU do to take it, nay I would not be so bold as to claim an entire continent for myself, would you?

As for my city in question, claim it to be a second Kyoto as long as you wish, I know the location of my capital. And though I have yet to discover an obvious overlap of city squares (as easily as I have with yours in South America!) At least my city in question is on an entirely different land mass! A threat to you from such a city is so impossible that I LOL , In fact it could be a great source for trade for both civilizations, which is of course the founding principle of the Japanese Trade Federation. You are the Superior power and have produced an Empire worthy of jealousy, you have built wonders to make your people happy and rich, therefore the whole world fears your strength and ability.

NEGOTIATIONS: I am willing to concede any land squares in the future that my opposing CITY may have the ability to harvest where your's is able, even though it may be on my claimed land mass; If you are willing enough to release from your control in the future any land squares that your questionable CITY has in conflict with mine. The entire world looks to your "Most Enlightened and Great Empire..with Favour Great Noble leader..". Will you break that trust? If so, then perhaps you SHOULD be building city walls, as for me, I'm sticking with marketplaces.

Sincerly, Grau Geist, King of the Japanese Trade Federation and defender of the International Trade Organization

[This message has been edited by Grau Geist (edited May 24, 1999).]
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Old May 25, 1999, 03:55   #10
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croatian foreign office,offical document #020296AB, degree of secrecy: none

we,consul of republic of croatia,have received a very disturbing letter from our friend their royal majesty grau geist,shogun of japanese trading federation.

we've found several incorrect statement into a letter mentioned above and here's our point of view...

-kyoto#2-offending city placed on a british isles. we really have no idea what is a real purpose of using that prehistorical trick with identical city names and we don't want to interfere into japanese internal business,but we can and we will protect our interests and kyoto#2 is definitely a part of it.

but first things first...
when we saw you loaded trireme passing by our city of calixtlahuaca,we were concerned and curious about its cargo and destination. our minister of finance approved an expense to rush our trireme production and trireme captain was instructed to recieve our diplomat and group of settlers (non-supporting settlers,discovered in one small village and saved specially for a long,intercontinental travels) aboard.
very soon,our trireme arrived at the coast of british isles. our diplomat was instructed to explore uncharted regions of our and foreign empires,whenever our trireme stops to get some rest between the turns.
his first report was quite disturbing; one undefending city size 1 has been placed in the southern region of england which is,by the way,an INTEGRAL part of a continent called europe and integral part of our empire as well.

now,we're not talking about some distant jungles in south america. we're talking about usurpation of croatian territory.
of course,there's no doubt that you can claim british isles to yourself if kyoto#2 is your capital and british isles was your starting position,but allow us to express our suspiciousness about that subject...

-#1 we've found one of english cities,running by ai at the moment, about 3200 bc. his royal majesty,king of england,asked us personally to declare a war against japan. with all due respect, but it's hard to believe that someone with starting location in british islands,had enough time to discover mapmaking,build a trireme,load it,sail all the way across a west african coast without temptation to explore west european coast and met with king of england,placed in central africa,in merely 16 turns. according by our calculations,your real capital is placed somewhere in south africa.
-#2 one of our horsemen,during his exploration of black continent,have met your warrior close to horn of africa. you and your current ally,honoured king of england,was making great efforts to prevent mentioned horseman on his way to south,with combined using of zone of control.
-#3 i am sure that your highness are well informed about our embassy,established in the city of nagasaki 100 years ago. maybe thats only a mistake caused by our poor knowledge of japanese complicated alphabet,but last time we've checked,there was 2 (two) kyotos on our list.
-#4 if #1,2 and 3 isn't enough to prove our point of view,we've saved this one for a final evidence. am sure your excelency remember when our diplomat landed in england. well,we wanted to be sure and gave him instructions to try enter into kyoto#2.
here's a letter we've recieved from him :
'your majesty,i've found one undefended city size one,placed in the south coast of isles west from your palace. we have one trireme with some settlers next to it. shall i order them to destroy offending city,or mebbe it's a better solution to pursuade it to our side? it will cost us only 76 gold pieces.'
our reply :
'no mr.smith. let it be there for now. we shall see about it later. we are sure that someday it may become a valuable bargaining chip if we commit something what international community judge as a violating japanese territory. you may continue with your primary mission.'
did you ever saw 'iniciate a revolt' option when diplomat trying to enter into someones else capital? well,we haven't.

now to important matters...

your kyoto#2 (i'll call it kyoto#2 to avoid possible confusion) has been placed on british isles,which are integral part of my territory. furtermore,kyoto#2 is very close to my capital and it can be of primary strategic value in possible future wars. now don't get me wrong...i've no intention to start a war because of that,but as a world #1 empire at the moment i cannot allow to anybody to push me around and particulary not to world #2. you haven't ask for my permission about a place of offending city and that was very disturbing. and finally,there was your proposal...
i have to cede following land squares:
-31.69 (mountains)
-32.68 (grassland)
-33.69 (plains)
-34.68 (GEMS!!!)
all of above mentioned squares are in south america,an unsettled continent before two of us arrived there.

and what i am supposed to gain in return?
-74.28 (grassland)
south-eastern square of british isles and part of tlatelolco (founded about 3500 bc) and,once again,part of EUROPE.

we've talking about 4:1 into your adventage here. do you really think you've proposed a fair deal to me?

here is my offer. maybe i could accept your proposal but with two conditions:

a) you will not build anymore cities in europe. british isles and iceland included.
b) you have to improve square (74.28) with road and irrigation BEFORE 500 ad.

i was very surprised when i saw your note with a recommendation about building city walls. i can also see that you've raised a decent military force. very unusual behaviour for a person who 'building marketplaces' under a monarchy .
anyway...i hope i will not to be forced to shut up my defense minister with a wonder i really hate to build: the great wall. so far,we had an exemplary piece of peace. i was the one who provided you with two very important advances;monarchy and republic in exchange for seafaring and mathematics (apparently not so important at this early stage). i am also hoping that we will continue our excellent relationship far into the future.
my proposal under a letter '(b)' can be accepted,refused or counteroffered,BUT...proposal under a letter '(b)' isn't proposal at all. it is a rightfull request. how can i explain to my voters that some expansionist from south africa have occupied a land in northwestern europe?

one more thing...if you,by any chance,thinking of relocating your capital from kyoto#1 to kyoto#2 and tricking other nations by claiming british isles as your motherland,better forget about it because:
-it will be waste of time and production to relocate your palace so early in the game
-all players will be informed about such of act,not only ones which have their embassies established
-think about waste and corruption in south africa. it's a long way to democracy

sf

p.s.
this is a great game and great players. i really hate that subs (not persons,of course,but substitution as a concept) and it seems that 1st diplomatic group suffering from very same disease. i hope we will have some game combined with a regulars from both of our groups in a near future. furthermore,these topics are quite usefull; we don't have to waste our precious game time to do some negotiations and it can be interesting stuff to read. i am a regular reader of 'tales I'.
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Old May 25, 1999, 17:25   #11
Grau Geist
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To:Croatian Foreign Office

It is the extreme displeasure of the Japanese Trade Federation to be bullied by the constant proclaimations of the world leading Croatian Empire. We wish to address some problems this world may have during its growth stage, solving these problems early on will possibly reduce the number of large conflicts stemming from resource problems created by a finite world. We wish to establish our thoughts on various issues of land claims, etc.

If the Croatian Empire insists that the Japanese Federation has its capital located in South Africa, then so be it. The Croatian Empire is also well aware of the location of the English civilization on said continent. Since the Croatian Empire was able to explore so far south in such little time as well, I'm sure it is well aware of the limitations that the continent of Africa has in supporting one civilization, let alone two.
Yet I suppose Croatia believes itself to be entitled to the entire continent of Europe plus part of Asia perhaps, plus any islands in between Europe and America, plus any territory in the Americas that it sees fit??? The Japanese Trade Federation does not have a problem with any of those claims as long as someone else was not there first!!

I am proud to say that I was the first civilization to discover the science Mapmaking because I made it a point to do so! When A civilization is boxed in by water or other factors the grand oceans of the world allow for other means of discovery. The Consul of the Croatians is well informed about the past negotiations of our coexisting earth (other Diplo game) and would be wise to re-read about the American claim to the entirety of the Americas. The rest of their world believed that to be an unfounded and ridiculous claim, especially since the Americans had never even been to South America!!!!
So too is your claim to the British Isles and ANY other lands you claim OUTSIDE of your control. You claim that

"when we saw you loaded trireme passing by our city of calixtlahuaca,we were concerned and curious about its cargo and destination. our minister of finance approved an expense to rush our trireme production"

This statement of course only serves to weaken your position. You admit that you did not even have a tireme!!!! You were not even capable to sail the seven seas!!! Yet you claim an Island chain a certain number of squares from your capital is yours!!! At the same time you have leaked out that you had not even bothered to explore the Isles, until it was apparent that someone else had gotten there first! Nay, your claims are unfounded and as ridiculous as America claiming the Americas to herself. The Japanese rightfully claims the British Isles as sovereign territory and further proclaims that the Croatians are no longer welcome in that territory. Furthermore the appearance of a Diplomat (come on its a spy) on the British Isles will be considered an Act of War which will no doubt be supported by my Allies. This harsh reaction from us is warranted by your OWN ADMITANCE that your previous Diplomat even considered to find out how much money it would take to bribe MY CITY!! This act you admitted to is an open act of Espionage!

I'm afraid your ministry of Propaganda has only worked to weaken your position, I believe the world, as fearful of your domination as I, will no doubt agree with this reckless use of a dipomat, I urge the rest of the civilizations to be weary of Croatian Diplomats!! You never know, they may be probing how much it would cost to bribe YOUR CITIES as well!!!

The Japanese Trade Federation freely admits it attempted to protect its precarious position in the world and TEST the trustworthiness of the Croatian Empire. We are pleased that though our decoy capital has been discovered, it has served its purpose. The Croatians, despite the actions of its diplomat, proved to be gracious enough not to take advantage of an apparently undefended Capital city. The result of such a loss (of a real capital city) would have thrown any civilization into chaos.

NEGOTIATIONS: CROATIAN EMPIRE
1. We accept your mistake upon placing your city within the unacceptable radius of our own, we know you will handle that city's growth in a mannerly order, and apologize for our accusations if they are unfounded.

2. We do not accept any claim you have to any Japanese Territory, however we accept your claim to the 74.28 grassland territory and will avoid using it unless it is needed in the distant future and has not been developed, our permission is required before you attempt to land any unit on that space in order to develop it.

3. We currently do not hold claim over ANY of the territory in South America, despite the fact we have explored the ENTIRE continent and you have not. We will only claim territory under the PROPOSED LAND CLAIM RULES as we suggest furthur in this document.

4. We wish permission to establish our own embassy with your civilization, when the appropriate time reveals itself.

5. We wish for YOU to apologize for not asking our permission to establish an embassy with us, for it appears you are using said embassy for intelligence gathering on our civilization rather than for Trade and Dipomatic purposes.

PROPOSED LAND CLAIM RULES: We have stated our position openly to the world. The Japanese Trade Federation WISHES THE EMPIRES OF the ENGLISH, CHINESE, RUSSIAN, SIOUX, VIKINGS and CROATIANS to agree or disagree with the following proposals for the acquisition and claiming of land:

1. No one can claim any territory that they do not already possess (whether by city or the placement of Military/Settler units).

2. They most certainly may not claim land that they have NOT even EXPLORED (ref. America's claim in Diplo 1 game)

3. The placement of a military unit does not neccesarily guarantee ownership if a city is not founded to claim the resources. However, the military unit does assure the owner of that unit certain leverage in negotiations should an opposing civilization arrive with a settler to found a city in said territory. The establishment of any such city is encouraged by the rest of the world to be negotiated peacfully between the civiliations involved.

4. The guarding of territory outside the reasonable limits of established cities by military units, with THE INTENT of PREVENTING a MORE able civilization to establish thier own city will be scourned by the rest of the world. (A Military Capable civilization should not be able to claim territory that they logistically could not settle with in a reasonable amount of time).

For example: I could not place a military unit in Alaska and prevent another Civilization from settling a city there, just because I claimed it for myself. Now If I myself had a city on the south coast of Alaska and had the ability to settle further reaches of Alaska I would be right in my claim to the territory PROTECTED by my military UNIT, BECAUSE I have high probabilty of settling another city in conjunction with my first in the territory.
If I had a military Unit located in the Middle East and told everyone to leave that area because it was mine, yet my closest city and possible settler unit was in The British Isles, I would not have just claim to that territory and should not be able to bully anyone from settling.

To all Civilizations Please Vote your Confidence to these proposals so we may prevent aggression and blind Imperialism.

(A COPY of the PROPOSAL has been sent to all Civilizations involved for review)

Sincerely, Grau Geist, Shogun, JAPANESE TRADE FEDERATION and Protector of the INTERNATIONAL TRADE ORGANIZATION
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Old May 27, 1999, 07:33   #12
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republic of croatia; main consul cabinet:

i am unpleasantly surprised and,may i also add,insulted by a content of a letter sent by their royal majesty and our former friend,high respectful grau geist - shogun of japanese trade federation. personally,i am very disappointed because of a fact that your most important advisors obviously aren't invested enough efforts to estimate situation,in which our two civilization currently are,in a rightful and fair way and which is not,without any doubt,provoked by croatian side.
since i have unlimited trust in my foreign minister,as well as in our minister of defense,i will let them to find a solution of this problem.
with all respect, smartfart - consul of republic of croatia.

croatian foreign office,offical document #020309AB,degree of secrecy: none

many centuries ago,in a deal with our closest neighbors chinese and sioux,croatia had established her borders. that very delicate part of a job was finished and resulted with a great pleasure of all 3 concerned sides. we would like to point at certain facts wich are,by the way,offical statement of our goverment.

1. croatia considers europe,as well as an isles which are integral part of it (british isles and iceland),as her legitimate territory and she have completely right to claim it,refer to position of her capital which is,by the way,ONLY capital in europe.
since europe is 2nd smallest continent in a known world,we consider our statement as a completely fair one.
croatia will NOT,under ANY circumstances,allow to any nation to settle that area without her permission and specially not to some expansionistic and agressive individual who was brutally violated a territory so close to her capital.
today,we're talking about british isles,tomorrow it will be spain and day after tommorow it will be some particulary square of european land which is unoccupied by a city. and what are your arguments? OUR SETTLERS WAS THERE FIRST.
what are you expecting from us? to occupy every single one square of europe with a settlers? no way.
you have occupied part of our motherland without even asking us about it. kyoto#2 is merely couple of squares away from our capital and we will do everything whats in our power to prevent future existence of such a threat.

2. in your last letter stays that british isles was never even explored by our side. furthermore,you said that we haven't even owned a trireme before we saw yours passing through our territorial waters.
where did you find such an information? in our last letter maybe? we have re-readed it twice,but we were unabled to find any information of rushing our FIRST trireme. number and type of our units are state secret and i have no authorization to reveal that information in public.

3. later,you refer to some 'coexisting earth'. i am very disappointed by the fact that our consul strictly forbided to me to comment anything connected with that particulary case,and god knows i have alot to say,so i will only put forward an offical statement of our goverment :
we shall not now and we shall not EVER comment any event or situation which isn't directly in connect with our planet.

4. as for yor accusations about espionage when we only wanted to be sure (we knew it already,but we needed a final proof) that kyoto#2 isn't your capital and british isles aren't your motherland; that event will never happened without mentioned usurpation of croatian motherland. our diplomats have free hands,approved by very top of our cabinet,to do everything in their power what they considering it will benefit to our state. only inside europe,of course. all units,except the ones of our allies,which trying to enter into europe without asking our permission,doing that on their own risk.
caravans included. specially caravans. if some trade route suits to you,it doesn't means that we already haven't some other route in mind. remember...only 3 trade routes are allowed per city.

5. you call your empire 'japanese trading federation'. i can't exactly understand what an usurpation of croatian territory have to do with trade,and what is a real purpose of hiding position of your motherland since you like to have an open market with all civilization. in our very first letter,adressed to all nations,we've revealed our starting position on purpose,expecting to cooperate with all nations on a fair basis. if you wanna keep your motherland in secret,fine. that's japanese internal business. but do you think we're going to drag our caravans pointlessly all across the world in hope to find some of your cities? do you think us feebleminded?
i can assure you that we,through a delicate study of our map,already know where your motherland is. i can remember all of your pity efforts to convice us that kyoto#2 is your capital. we've prove it is not. now we are faced with another false statement but we haven't any interest at the moment to send our triremes into your territorial waters just to prove something what isn't in directly connection with our current plans.
now whose propaganda serves to weaken whose position? think about it.

6. and now,a funny part. you said you're affraid of our domination and you reference to whole world to support you in YOUR agressive intentions (once again,source of our problem is YOUR city placed few squares from OUR capital). so you actually admit that our only sin is that we are currently most advanced civilization on the world.
yes,we can completely understand that above mentioned fact bothers you so much since you are currently #2,but we were worked hard to reach our current position. our reputation is spotless. we were brutally sneak attacked by sioux twice,when evil ai usurped a sioux throne. and what we were done about it? only protected our borders,because we were sure that real king of sioux will take his throne again and we didn't wanted to ruin our deal with him. no matter we were abled to pursuade at least one of his cities to our side.

before i let our minister of defense to finish this note,allow me to say one more thing:
we were ready to concede you pending PART of british island including all city squares except (74,28) and ALL of 4 questionable squares in our south american colony. and what we were asked in return? only that you make a road and irrigation before 500 ad on concerned square,which belong to us anyway.
we are extremly disappointed because you haven't recognized in that,for you obviously more than acceptable proposal,last attempt of our republic to save her honor and gain at least something in return. and what was your answer? you're no more welcome on british isles,you can have (74,28) until we need it,you have to ask our permission to improve that square and similar insults.
do you really think that our state will bow your head and swallow that bull?

with a decission of our consul,which is result of a voting of top 5 members of our cabinet,republic of croatia breaks all diplomatic and trade relationships with japanese trade federation. here are voting results:

-minister of defense : yes
-minister of science : yes
-minister of trade : no
-minister of foreign affairs : yes
-minister of culture and sports: neutral

according to our constitution,consul have right to vote only if final result is draw.

croatian ministry of defense,offical document #000001AD,degree of secrecy : japanese only

with blessing of our consul i have honor to hand over to you following ULTIMATUM :

1. you have to disband offending city kyoto#2. time-limit : 100bc
2. all japanese units in europe have to leave this area. time-limit : 100bc
3. its strictly forbidden to ANY japanese unit to enter into european territory until our goverment decided different. exception is one empty trireme to take your settlers and possible one more unit away from british isles.
4. refusing or violation of only ONE of above mentioned 3 parts of this ultimatum will be considered as an act of war.
5. you have all rights to declare a war to us even earlier than 100bc,but at least ONE turn in advance. any sneak attack,stealing technology,bribing our cities without declaring a war first,will be considered as an act of ATROCITY and will certanly result with a war until completely extermination,your or ours.
6. our possible military action will be limited only to the area of british isles. if you decide to attack any other part of our republic,we will answer with attack on all parts of your empire.

our ministry of defense have in possession very precise map of whole africa. however,not with any cities yet but english.
judging by revealed and unrevealed ocean squares,we can see that home city of a trireme which bring your settlers to europe is few squares north of madagaskar. despite of your policy which doesn't allow any compromise,our consul ordered to us to give you one LAST chance out of this situation. if you give us FIRM guarantee that you'll improve with road/irrigation square (74,28) AND if you build a city onto madagaskar AND cede it to us,ALL that BEFORE 200 AD,we will confirm kyoto#2 and all surrounding squares in its city radius (exception is 74,28) as a legitimate part of japanese trade federation.
however,that confirmation will staying as long as kyoto#2 (please rename it,i really hate to use shift key) is only japanese city in europe.

all respects...sf

p.s. all 5 parts of your proposal under 'negotiations',as well as all 4 points of document you sent will be not under consideration until our goverment decide different
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Old May 27, 1999, 19:17   #13
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The Japanese Shogun Grau Geist and his Zaibatsu Trade Council shall consider the most generous offer of the Croatian Cabinet.

We do consider the out right threat of war by your cabinet to be very unneccesary especially one talking about extermination, how unstatesmanlike.

However we are not sure how your border establishment with the sioux and chinese applies to us? If this border included the claim of the middle east for the sioux I wonder how my ally, the English, would consider such a proposal, considering it borders on their territory and yet were left completely out of the discussion?
Response to your:
#1 we are confused on why you insist on refering to your land and ours near you as Europe ?(see #3 response) who has defined what Europe is and what can be claimed as part of it? As for your Capital and any cities, when Kyoto was settled there was no knowledge by the Japanese of Croatian territories (the only contact the Japanese had with the Croatians to that point was in Africa (presummed through the middle east and then where was the home state of Croatia?? we could not know!!)
Also if you carefully read the PROPOSAL and the given examples you will see that placing a settler in every square is a bit of an exaggeration!! You should be able to justify a claim to any territory, not just because you and some other civilization agreed that it belongs to you. There has to be a better reason why!

#2 Your exploration and tireme production secrets have been derived from your own statements!! Also your actions speak for themselves... Why would you rush production of a tireme unless it was to play catch up to me in exploring that area? If you had explored that area in an attempt to claim it, you would have made this fuss a long time ago and the Japanese would have given it back to you!!! As it was my Tireme and units were there first, just as they were in front of your own on the way to Iceland, Greenland, America, and South America!!! Yet we have not claimed all of this land even though we have explored it first!!!

#3 surely, AS YOU POINT OUT, if we are to suppose our world is the only one, and we should ignore the HISTORY of Earth and any other Worlds coexisting alongside ours, THEN we should NOT refer to our territories in other worldly terms. As far as my exploration is concerned I found an Island totally separated from the land mass next to it, the land mass you claim as your territory. I AM NOT SURE HOW THIS ISLAND CAN BE LINKED HISTORICALLY WITH YOUR LAND MASS, if we are sticking to your supposed ignorance to any world outside our own.

#4 did not quite understand that one (sorry)

#5 The effects and benefits of the counterintelligence operation performed by the Japanese samurai network is being evaluated in secret by the Zaibatsu council and the Shogun.

#6 We would like clarity, just how many spaces your capital is from our supposed offending city? you said a couple which means two (which is impossible) then you said a few which means 3 (which again would put your city in the water!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We would like clarity because in that perspective our capital is just a few spaces away from an english city and a Viking city and a sioux city and one of your cities!!! the Japanese better annilhate them all!!!


Again on those notes of yours we need some clarity so we may seriously consider your generous Ultimatum.

Sincerely, Grau Geist, Shogun of the Japanese Trade Federation and Protector of the International Trade Organization
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Old May 27, 1999, 19:48   #14
Gideon
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Fellow world leaders,
We the PUNY English, are astonished by these current events. We call upon all other nations to defend the rights of the Japanese Trade Federation. They have in no way infringed upon the rights of the GIGANTIC Croations. The Croation EMPIRE has openly and beligerently threatened the Japanese into obeying their commands. This must not be allowed! The Croations have: 1) flaunted their size/superiority 2) Openly acknowledged the use of espionage 3) Threatened WAR, if the Japanese did not meet with their commands. Even though the Croats are no longer even considering the Japanese proposals.
Obviously the Croats sense their power is larger than the Japanese and my own. This is scandalous behavior, none of us should stand for it. This Bullying must be stopped, and how to do it? Tell the Croats this is unacceptable. I am willing to defend the rights of my fellow nation of Japan, after the Japanese, who next to be enslaved? You, me, everyone.
United we Stand, Divided we Fall! Do not allow the most distinguished Croat leader became our DICTATOR.
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Old May 28, 1999, 00:05   #15
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Most esteemed Heads of State:

Special Advisor Cromwell is delighted that all of the parties to this dispute are taking their cases before the court of world opinion.

Especially pleasing are the many claims which strain any semblance of logic, and can only be attributed to mental disfunction or propaganda. Advisor Cromwell will refrain from commenting upon which arguments are amusingly transparent, leaving it for the community of World leaders to decide. This is an especially important stance to take, since there is no way of knowing which nation may be contacting the Counselor Cromwell to enlist his leadership services in the future.

In any event, a far-sighted leader will consider carefully before allowing the accumulation of too much strength in one part of the globe--and if need be make such sacrifices in blood and iron as are necessary to stop it, regardless of what causes the spark that ignites the conflict. After all......War IS INDEED "the continuation of state policy by other means" and there are times when such "means" are necessary.

Cromwell, wandering advisor to many nations is dusting off his sword, against that day when the inevitable conflict comes, and some small power is in need of a courageous leader.

Are the lights going out all over Europe? ......perhaps even the World? I think that they may well be.

Respectfully,

Cromwell
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Old May 28, 1999, 07:11   #16
SmartFart
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republic of croatia,main consul cabinet:

greetings,respected shogun.
let me get straight to the point.
1. i am using a term 'europe',because its much easier than talking in numbers,but if you insist i will send you location of all squares which are part of it (i hope that will not to be necessary).furthermore,you were perfectly awared about location of our motherland and about approximately location of our capital much before you've reached british isles (see our first report).
2. ??? thot i already explained that. rushing our trireme doesn't mean that some other trireme under my flag wasn't already passed that area. i was presumed that you preparing to settle somewhere near my capital and british isles was a logical choice. anyway,since i wasn't 100% sure,i rushed trireme in my closest city to british isles. however,i started to protest only after you already protested about overlaping city in south america.
3. agreed. i will not going to ask you why did you not proceeded with your settlers to some larger land mass than british isles because of great variety of possible answers,but from my point of view kyoto#2 is there because you wanted to establish stronghold into very heart of my state.
4. what espionage? what have i done to deserve that accusation? stole tech? bribed city? sabotaged production? what? i already told you twice ; my diplomat only checked if kyoto#2 can be bribed,because capital cannot be bribed (no 'inicite revolt' option).
5. quite understandable
6. that information can be offered only to friendly empires.

in short,you said taht i have no rights to claim british isles to myself,no matter of position of heart of my state. ok. thats japanese point of view and i respect that. before i sent you an ultimatum,you also said that i am no more welcomed there and i have to ask you for permission to land plus some war threats. i respect that also. but any city under any square need some support to be claimed as a legitimate part of someones empire,or you need permission to build it (exceptions are areas w/o support from any country). british isles obviously have not any close connection with your empire,but it haves with mine. very close. you should respect that also.
i already know that you activated your ally english into our case. god knows what are two of you after,but i can assure you that croatians are more than capable to protect our interests. you haven't showed any sign of friendship since of dawn of our civilization and kyoto#2 will become larger threat to me with every single turn. it is of my foremost concern to protect most important part of my state from anybody,specially from you.furthermore,your empire already have more military than mine. number of japanese units is japanese internal business,but keeping your units away from our state is croatian internal business,don't you agree?

anyway,i am perfectly awared what are you trying to do.all of my explanations was completely waste of time . in your position,i'll probably did the same thing,but some of my voters already calling me a weakling and asking for a king to take over our state. i think you've rushed a bit.
i hope we've all cleared out.

sincerely,smartfart,consul of republic of croatia


croatian foreign office,offical document #020317AC,degree of secrecy : none

greetings,high respected gideon,king of english empire

it's completely understandable to us that you,as a japanese ally and their closest friend,are so astonished by current explosive situation between japan and croatia. since you obviously negate all our arguments about claim of british isles,may we settle north african coast? we assure you that we can be there in very short time. you don't mind that,we suppose? after all,our two empires haven't established their borders yet.

obviously,your foreign minister recieved precise instruction from his mentor,shogun of japanese trading federation. we can't exactly understand what is your interest in japanese-croatian conflict about british islands,except to help japan just because you two are allied. our relationship was very good until now,but we will not accept any military interference from english side.
as for your statements:

1. no comment
2. see answer #4 in letter adressed to japanese shogun
3. obviously,you're not quite familiar with a history and nature of japanese/croatian conflict and your only purpose is to be blind ally.

that's fine but we suggest you to read very carefully all documents above. currently,we are not empire with strongest army and that proves our peaceful intentions,but we assure you,we will know how to protect our interest.

of course we're not considering japanese proposals until our goverment decides different. after all, we've broke all diplomatic relationship with them.

last part of your letter sounds as a call to lynch. it was not quite wise from your side to reveal yourself so easy as our probably enemy. all trade between our two kingdom is stopped until japanese and croatians solve their problem. we hope you know what are you doing.

sincerely,smartfart,consul of republic of croatia


p.s. again,great game and now we have some spice in it,don't you agree? (good point cromwell)
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Old May 28, 1999, 14:47   #17
Grau Geist
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This one has to be short but sweet:

Unfortunately, leader of Croatia, the Japanese have not been able to discuss the situation with the English. They apparently have concluded their condemnation on their own study of the subject! We are not puppetmasters, nor the English Puppets, I'm sure they will make you aware of such an insult.

Secondly, you have said that our original disagreement with you over the particular land squares was insulting and warlike. We would like to remind you that we conceded your rights and apologized for our apparent aggressive stance. I'm sure you also could understand our insistance that you ask us for permission to approach so close to our city for development of said squares, considering the warlike posturing that has taken place between us.
Finally, it was you that insisted on escalating this affair to a war of annilhation (your words) if certain demands were not met. We never demanded anything from you since the beginning of this discussion, rather we proposed a negotiation for land usage, which you have turned into ultimatums and threats that now involve a good portion of the wide spread Japanese nation. We urge you to weigh those FACTS heavily in your upcoming senatorial meetings.

Sincerely, Grau Geist, Shogun, Japanese Trade Federation and Protector of the International Trade Organization
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Old May 28, 1999, 17:12   #18
SmartFart
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republic of croatia,main consul office:

greetings again,high respected shogun of japanese trading federation. it seems that misunderstanding between our two nations slowly,but certanly clears out and i am very pleased about it. of course,that doesn't mean that we have our conflict solved,but at least,both of our goverment understands interests of each other (negate me if i am wrong).
however,i would like to explain one more point.
if you read a little more carefully controversial statement of our defense minister,you will probably conclude that he haven't insisted to escalate this affair into a war of annilhation. he had just expressed an offical statement of our goverment in case of POSSIBLE atrocity.

with all due respects,smartfart,consul of republic of croatia
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Old May 28, 1999, 18:43   #19
Gideon
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To the distinguished Croats, our Northern neighbors: Of all of the nations to accuse other nations of puppetry, the Croats should be last. Your threats toward the Japanese show your belligerence, as do your threats to colonize North Africa.
True, if you were to carry through with your aggressive threats, we would be the first to be annihilated. However, I and all of my English brothers would rather be martyrs for soveriegnty, then slaves to your decadent Empire. Destroy us if you will, or colonize North Africa, which will lead to our destruction, we will not bow to your threats or commands. My people recognize one leader, ME. And I recognize one leader, God.
Of course I came to the aid of the beseiged Japanese, not because I am there puppet, but because they were in the right and threatened by a larger nation.
If our zeal in their defense has offended you, we apologize, our intentions were definitely not war, which would mean our utter destruction, but protection of rights and peace.

- To Liberty, Soveriegnty, and Life

The English
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Old May 28, 1999, 23:53   #20
John Barbarossa
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Open letter from the League of Non-Aligned Nations - a special diplomatic envoy from diplomatic game 1 to diplomatic game 2, charged with an advisory role and reporting details of this game back to Dip 1.

To Consul Smartfart of the Croatian Republic


THE TONE.
We find Croatias use of threatening the extermination and genocide of any country to be a renegade act of an out of control head of state. It is inconsistant that a nation able to haggle and negotiate in the semantic detail Croatia has demonstrated thus far feels the need to talk the same language of violent conflict resolution more suited to less able lands. That Japan is being intransigent is not disputed, however your recent leap to ultimatum shows a worrying militaristic streak in Croatia's diplomacy that leads us to doubt whether there is a civilian government in charge of the Croatian Republic at all.

THE SETTLEMENT
This issue here is one of simple 'recognition' of the various land claims. Japans claim is 'on the ground' in Britain, whereas Madagascar is not Croation. The negotiation should be the recognition of Japanese possesions in Britain vs the recognition by Japan of Croatias deal with the Sioux/Chinese. Running parallel with this, diplomatic game one is also going through the process in Australia, Europe and South America. I look forward to following how both issues develop.

WHAT NEXT FOR CROATIA
Your view that the genocide is only a 'possible genocide' is politically bankrupt and unacceptable to any Civilized nation. Your recent 'baby steps' towards peace fall a long way short of any Croat retraction of you 'war of annihalation' threat. I have been asked to request of Croatia

* A complete and unconditional retraction of Croatias threat to engage in ANY wars of annihalation.

* Croatias commitment to exhaust a political solution to all its conflicts before resorting to military means.

* Croatias commitment to limit all land wars to the area/cities in question and not provoke a more general conflict.

I feel compelled to warn the honourable gentleman that there are worlds and planets (dip1) where such behaviour would land him with a bloody nose. If he later intends to venture into agreements with other players in future games, he would be advised to remember that the world is watching.

Regards
John Barbarossa
For and on behalf of 'The League of Non-Aligned Nations'
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Old May 29, 1999, 03:26   #21
SmartFart
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republic of croatia,main consul office:

greetings again,your excellency gideon,king of english empire.
i think we have another (sigh) misunderstanding here. our 'statement' about colonization of north africa was only a metaphor. its original purpose was to explain a situation in which our state currenly is thanx to japanese usurpation of british isles. our knowledge of english language is far beyond yours,so i can understand if our foreign minister used a wrong chain of words,but here,we call it a sarcasm.
however,i am extremely pleased about your intentions to acting peacefully and to protect rights and peace,but allow me to express my personal opinion about a term such a 'right' is.
what is 'right' to one kingdom and their possible allies,it doesn't means that is also 'right' to some other kingdom and their possible allies.
so,your excellency considers that our possible settlement in northern africa
will probably leading to your utter destruction and in the same time openly approved japanese settlement in western europe. quite interesting,don't you agree?
as for your statement 'destroy us if you will,etc.etc.',i would like to know what is the point of it? name just one example where we acted agressive against your empire.
same question is adressed to all nation.
obviously,you and japanese shogun are concerned about size and strength of our empire (which is,by the way,attained with hard work and without microscopic speck on our reputation),but it doesn't means that you two can put pressure on us without our reaction.

sincerely,smartfart,consul of republic of croatia

croatian foreign office,offical document #020324AA:

to everybody concerned sides :
we apologize about #5 of our ultimatum sent to shogun of japanese trading federation.
it's poor excuse,but we would like to say that #5 was written immediately after we recieved disturbing letter from japanese trading federation,when the heads was very hot. our minister of defense submited irrevocable resignation and has been replaced with general von klinkenhoffen.
now we're not trying to say that someone already commited an atrocity to us,but we would like to know what other nations thinks about military/espionage action without declaring war in advance.

republic of croatia,main consul office:

-to special diplomatic envoy from another planet:

its a great honour for us to recieve you.
allow me to get straight to the point:

*1. already done. anyway,i would like to hear your comments about possible war actions without declaration; such as sneak attacking,stealing techs,bribing,etc.

*2. its very dependable question. in my opinion,my very first proposal to japanese was more than fair. obviously,the tone is very important to you. it is important to me as well and japanese answer to my proposal wasn't exactly written in a friendly tone,don't you agree?
anyway,am always open to negotiate,but only on a fair basis. so far,i have my own conclusions about japanese intentions. of course,i may be just paranoic,but since they haven't showed any sign of friendship from the very beginning of our game (if you insist i can send particulary examples),i don't think so. i wonder if any serious world leader will stayed calm if some distant empire raising an army rapidly and placing cities (only one for now,but there are at least 2 good spots on british isles) very close to my capital when the world is still full of unoccupied land and resources.

*3. see #6 of croatian ultimatum to japanese

your proposal about our negotiations with japan doesn't looks quite logical to me.
if croatia recognize kyoto#2,its impossible for japan to recognize my deal with chinese/sioux and if japan recognize my deal with chinese/siouxs they have to leave british isles and i will not be able to recognize kyoto#2.( i know what you ment,but as you already pointed out i like to argue )
as for the 'bloody nose' remark; this isn't in direct connection with any of our games,so i wouldn't comment that in this thread. hope we will do some negotiations in 'tales from the diplomatic front 3' someday.
aargh...i almost forgot (as a matter of fact i forgot and edited)...you said that you were ASKED to do your requests. how can be that possible? does that means that someone already have SETI completed?

take care

sf

p.s. MATCHDAY!!! at last



[This message has been edited by SmartFart (edited May 29, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by SmartFart (edited May 29, 1999).]
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Old May 29, 1999, 04:06   #22
KenThur
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We on tap of 2pm eastern as w/ last Sat? I can go earlier if works w/ others. Spread the word!
As for the media debate raging above... i can see alot of good / fair points on both sides. Since i'm still a "non-exsistant" civ rumuored to be on this earth somewhere, i will / can have little input.
Altho, the 1 action / reaction i have a prob w/ is that investigating a city = "spying". What are we to do, trust blindly? i don't think so. i could see if later in the game a central city or 2 are declared off limits to others (perhaps even allies), ala Area 51 in the US & what is it, Gorky city(?), in the USSR & other such cities/areas in every country. But peaceful intentions should be verifable for "frontline" cities... everywhere, if a leader has a prob w/ that, then i for 1, would have to place the leader/city on my "caution list". IMS-HO
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Old May 29, 1999, 17:04   #23
Gideon
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We the English, following the example of the wise Swiss. Have now completely attained neutrality. Our utmost apologies are to the Croats and to any others we may have offended. This change has come about due to the recent death of our beloved, bold, hot-headed, rash, King Jimbob I. He has now been replaced with Jimbob II. WHo has returned Cairo to the Sioux, and call upon all nations to find peaceful answers to their problems.
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Old May 29, 1999, 20:26   #24
Martin Guerre
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Martin Guerre,
Standing in for Chinese Leader.

Having subbed for this session, I thought it would be useful to describe the Chinese position as I saw it, especially as our actions came under heavy criticism in some quarters.

The Chinese were allied to both of their neighbours, the Sioux and Croats. The maintenace of these alliances was of extreme importance to the Chinese because of their own very weak military and relatively small territory. The only chance for China's future prosperity, as I saw it, was to maintain thse excellent relations with her bordering states. Technologically, China was doing well under her old ruler, but her population was tiny and she depended on complete peace for her stability.

Only the guarantees of her more powerful neighbours allowed China to have such a small army. This is an excellent policy which allows a nation to prosper without the need to burden the economy with military units and infrastructure, but it does rely on keeping to the more powerful ally's foreign policy.

As soon as the session started, we agreed to abide by the pre-established borders with our neighbours, and to continue the Aliances as they were.

Very soon after the commencement of the session, we were called upon by our allies the Sioux to condemn the English and Japanese over some action in Africa. The situation was not entirely clear for some time, but we were obliged by treaty to come to the aid of our ally, and this we did, in very strong terms.In fact we had so little to do domestically that we had plenty of time to sit in on the negotiations that were taking place. These negotiations were very heated!

The nature of these negotiations evidently took the rest of the world by surprise. It seemed that the view held commonly was that China had no interest in the dispute (over Cairo, Egypt), and that since we did not border the area, it was of no concern to us.

I must reject this point of view for the following reasons:

1 it was definitely in China's interest to see that a friendly power held the key to the Suez Canal Zone;

2 it was definitely in China's interest to argue as strongly as possible in favour of the position of our ally, since we would no doubt have to seek their support in return at some point in the future;

3 diplomacy is not concerned with the maintenance of peace above all else, but rather with the furthering of a country's aims through the most effective policies. This usually means peace because war is so expensive and wasteful, but, war is still the continuation of politics through other means.

Eventually, the matter did descend into war because of a lack of any fall back or compromise position from the English, who bribed Cairo with a diplomat unit. Under the terms of our alliance we had no choice but to declare war on them ourselves.

The English were only forced to make amends when - as a direct result of our three way diplomacy between the Chinese, Croats and Sioux - the Croats decided to come to the aid of the Sioux, at which point the English sensibly backed down and gave Cairo back.

It seems that certain players were alarmed at the strength of Chinese backing for the Sioux. This I found surprising, since my policy was simply to be of assistance diplomatically - by denouncing actions which went against my interests and those of both my allies - in the only way I could, ie:verbally, since I could not offer much military support (I gave the Sioux a single horseman as a token gesture).

I feel I should point out that I consider playing Diplomatic Civ to be partly an exercise in roleplaying, and that players should act the part of world leaders and statesmen (and women on those rare occassions), which I hope I did in this session. Hence my tone was formal throughout, and I was surprised that this was not universaly adopted by other players. My real name is not Martin Guerre, obviously, and I am not really the Chinese leader, equally obviously, but I feel obliged to make believe that this is the case. I would appreciate feedback on this point.

Finally, on the matter of the "heat" of the negotiations- frankly I have seen hotter! The kind of Diplomatic Game I want to play is one wherein the respective world leaders argue their case and conduct their negotiations to the utmost of their ability. Having seen the transcript from the Dip One game of last weekend, the negotiations in that were no less heated, but did lead to a peace agreement of monumentous proportions, as detailed elsewhere. Surely it is up to the leader of a nation to argue their case as strongly as possible? This does NOT mean argument for its own sake, since the key to failure over Cairo was the lack of compromise from the English camp and their refusal to budge in the face of world opinion. Rather, it means having a fall back position that the opponent is glad to accept after you have exhausted them in the negotiations. I hope my future allies argue my case as stongly as I did for the Sioux. That is what diplomacy is all about: settling an issue by force of argument rather than force of arms, wherever possible.

Thanks for the game, gentlemen.


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Old May 29, 1999, 22:40   #25
SmartFart
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before i write any comment about our 4 session,i would like to clear something out.
most important reason why am not playing anymore civleague games and why am not using the zone anymore is:

- people takes civ2 too seriously.
now am not trying to say that i don't care who wins and that sort of things. my point is that some players really thinks that someone did killed his horseman for REAL.
in my opinion,some of events in our 4th session were quite unpleasant. any player unabled to draw a line between real life and civ2 is no fun to play.

i remember my last game on the zone. there was one guy (death of light or something like that) and we've started a 3 players civleague game. they were allied against me from the very beginning. when i completely anihallated one of them (i forgot his name) i was falled a little bit behind remained player because of 2 against 1 odds. as soon as remained player realized that am rapidly growing,both military and by population,he started with insults,whining,threats and that sort of things. almost every 10 seconds i got pop-up with 'you suck,am gonna kill you,am gonna do this am gonna do that'. when i muted him,he continued thru 'zone friends' pager. so i retired and decided to never show up to continue our game.
i can perfectly understand that someone really hates when game events turn against him,but what i really dislike is when someone can't control his emotions.
am not going to say anything more about that subject ( after all,it wasn't that bad ),but i just wanted you guys to know that if things really get out of control,you can count me out for future sessions.

now to some good thinghs

on my great pleasure,japanese and croats have their problem solved now. it wasn't easy,but somehow we've done it. i really forgot to ask about road/irrigation on (74,28),but deal is a deal.
in short,japanese and all involved nations recognized madagascar as a legitimate part of my civilization no matter about my currently unpresence there. japanese also promised that kyoto#2 stays as a only japanese city in whole europe. in return,i've recognized kyoto#2 (without 74,28) as a legitimate part of japan and ceded all 4 overlaping squares to them.
to be perfectly honest i've been disbanded that overlaping city in my very first turn of 4th session.
furthermore,we had a 1st war in the game.
i was astonished when i saw english attacked much more powerful sioux. it was a matter of VERY important thing: suez channel.
situation was almost too complicated.
on one side was sioux allied with chinese,and on another was english allied with japanese and russians,but russians was far away into north america. i was well awared about japanese military strength,but had no idea of their type. it could be triremes and explorers as well as veteran elephants and charriots. however,since i was loyal ally of chinese i couldn't stayed out of this conflict and from the other side,i was worried about possible sioux spreading all over north african coast.
one important fact overweighted to sioux side; i was two turns before a war with japanese. possible control of suez channel from a loyal ally of my future enemy could cost me too much. very soon after i allied with sioux and picked my side in that war,england made wise decision and recognize cairo as a legitimate part of sioux empire. john (sub for icer) was faced with request from ALL leaders to not to spread further onto african soil and peace was signed.

one of my triremes carrying a diplo and a bag full of gold coins was one turn away from kyoto#2. now i was faced with a request from ALL world leaders to make some compromise with japan about british question. obviously,both of my allies considered that my eventually bribing of kyoto#2 will only cement my lead. furthermore,presence of a single japanese city on british isles wasn't any threat to them. so,they've urged me to find some peacefull solution.
it was all in my hands,but i concluded i've already spended too much time and resources to increase my military strength and any longer war between me and japanese would certainly made more damage than benefits to both japanese and myself. not to mention that my REPUBLIC couldn't afford too much military.
once again,peace spread all over the world and we can continue with improving our civilizations.

until our next session

sf
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Old May 30, 1999, 02:20   #26
Glohithia
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Pardon me for butting in, but some of the things Martin and Smartfart have just said strike close to home for me lately.

I have been concerned since I started playing our Diplo game that people might take me seriously, since I get into the role a lot. This is all new to me and I didnt realize just how into it I would get. I bungled around a bit trying to tell John B and Nappy(because they were on the receiving end of my forum posts a lot) my philosophy on this type of game, but probably didnt get my point across. Martin hit it on the head though, its Roleplaying. I understand that its not personal if somebody attacks me, verbally or and actual assault, in the game. I expect similar treatment in return. Afterwards, Im inclined to laugh and talk it over with the players involved.

In our game, everybody has accepted this point of view. I hope things work out as well for you. It would be ashame if Smartfart would feel he needed to quit. How would I get my entertainment? The Croatian/Japanese posts were great!
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Old May 30, 1999, 18:54   #27
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( I think we all are well schooled in the art of Role playing and acting, I'm sure that whomever SF was refering to is as well. An Outraged King is not going to keep his cool at least not in 225 B.C., perhaps as civilizations become more civilized we shall have more diplomatic discussions, until then SF, don't worry people here are a lot more personable than the scum of the universe you might encounter at the zone )

JAPANESE PERSPECTIVES:
The Japanese Trade Federation was outraged at the flagrent bullying the Chinese and Sioux were able to pull on the English. We Admire and respect the way the English submitted in the interest of Peace. We in turn followed their lead.

We hope world opinion, rather than force may prove to win the day in favor of the English. The facts were rather cluttered in the Heated sessions and thus should be presented here. The Japanese are very involved and knowledgeable in this matter for it watched the history unfold.
THE CAIRO AFFAIR:
Early in the Earth's history, Our great Neighbors to the North, the ENGLISH, built a fine city on the Nile in the land of Egypt. The Evil AI of the Sioux subsequently destroyed this city shortly before he was ousted by Cromwell and Icer. The evil AI fled to Africa where he over threw King JIMBOB of the ENGLISH. The Sioux then set up a defensive city in egypt, Cairo, to defend against the AI led English. We also were attacked by the ENGLISH under the evil AI, but we were instrumental in restoring the rightful King Jimbob.
At our urging, Jimbob requested the once English land back. I'm not sure what kind of offers were made, but following A BRIBE by the SIOUX on an ENGLISH Phalanx (a defensive unit) the ENGLISH bribed CAIRO. The Triple Alliance declared war and 5 CIVs were at war before the AD's ??
Jimbob graciously accepted peace and lost everything without compensation. Despite Croatian threat of war in the British Isle, the Japanese were well able to protect all of their interests as well as help defend the African Continent from any onslaught.

However peace was chosen and peace is more beneficial to TRADE which is what the JAPANESE TRADE FEDERATION is all about. which is why the Japanese accepted peace with the Croatians over the British Isles. Japan was originally unable to comply with the proposed treaty, b/c we had already established other cities a long time before the controversy arose. At great expense to the Japanese Trade Federation we were forced to take extreme measures to compromise with the demanding Croatians. But peace was achieved and we hope Trade will ensue. We also look forward to the establshment of the Croatian city in Madagascar to further relations and trade between the two nations.

As for TRADE we have already offered this technology to two nations without it in the interest of world wide trade, the foundation of the International Trade Organization. WE will be happy to provide it to anyone else without.

TRADE FACTOID: SF said recently in his Foreign Minister's statement that a city is limited to 3 trade routes and that no unauthorized trade would be permitted. SF is correct in the first account, however limiting trade only proves to harm BOTH civilizations. If 3 routes exist and one more is established the more PROFITABLE routes will remain in affect. Therefore If Tenochtitlan and Teotihuacan have 3 routes between the two, and I establish a MORE Profitable (to Tenochtitlan) route from Kyoto, Tenochtitlan will keep the two most profitable routes from Teotihuacan and gain a more profitable route with Kyoto. Teotihucan will RETAIN its 3 routes with Tenochtitlan!! Likewise if the route from Kyoto is less profitable it will not show up.
LESSON: there is NO HARM in Trading, so lets get too it!!!

Sincerely, Grau Geist, Shogun and soon to be Consul of the Japanese Trade Federation and Protector of the International Trade Organization.
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Old May 30, 1999, 19:48   #28
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I have no doubt it was me SF was talking about. I apologize if I have been gung-ho. This is my very first game and I am also amazed at how into it I get.
Faced by the difficult Cairo decision, I viewed my position as very weak. My only allies could offer but limited support. Also, I was completely outgunned by the Sioux, and even more so by their allies. Luckily, peace prevailed and I can continue this game without being annihilated.
I will try to scale back my zeal in my part if it has offended anyone.
King Jimbob II of the English
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Old May 31, 1999, 05:21   #29
Martin Guerre
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From Martin Guerre,
High Commissioner,
International Convention on Diplomatic Protocol.

It is truly heart warming to note that voices of moderation are making themselves heard in the English/Japanese camp.

However, I must take up a point raised by the esteemed leader of the Japanese Trading Federation, with regard to his assertion that he hopes to see the "force of world opinion" seetlimg issues. The International Convention on Diplomatic Protocol would like to point out that Diplomacy is not the same thing as Democracy:

All voices in the world do not carry equal weight - only the powerful can demand that others listen to their communiqués, others can merely hope that the world will take heed of what they say;

No responsible world leader should do as others demand unless a) he has no choice, or b) the demand is in the interests of his nation;

Peace is only preferable to War for a stronger nation as long as the end result is the same.

Diplomacy, as far as the I.C.D.P. is concerned, gives the parties in a conflict the ability to resolve an issue before it comes to engaging in military action. In a dispute between two states, where they decide to settle the matter by diplomacy, the final outcome would naturally be the same as if they had gone to war, but without all the waste that this involves. This outcome is modified by the following: The skill of the diplomats involved; The influence of more or less powerful friends on either side.

It would be a mistake to expect powerful states, such as the Great Smart Fart's Croatia, to listen to the weak voices of other less powerful states when they do not need to. This is why it is necessary to build coalitions against the powerful, soo that the diplomatic scales are tilted in favour of the weak.

But only the skill of the diplomats makes this a reality, not some high-minded ideal which says that all states have an equal say in all matters. Diplomatic Civ2 is more like the U.N. Security Council, where the Superpowers have the last word, than the U.N. General Assembly, where every State has an equal vote.

Looking forward to your future developments with great interest, and listening avidly to all your posts,

Best wishes to all members of the International Family of Nations.

Martin Guerre.
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Old May 31, 1999, 20:38   #30
Grau Geist
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Very astute observation Martin, we shall keeping our ears to the ground in anticipation for the future wisdom of the High Commissioner of the International Convention to Diplomatic Protocol
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