GAME ATMOSPHERE (ver 1.1) hosted by Dominique

[Flavor Dave]

This is the smartest thread, by far, I've read so far. Great, great suggestions.

[EnochF]

Don't get me started on a comparison between English and American humour. Humor. Whatever. I might just have to visit the Off-Topic section for the first time... (England seems to have cornered the market on humourous novels thanks to Terry Pratchett and Douglas Adams, but America has always had the best stand-up comics. Steven Wright and Dennis Miller are amazing to listen to sometimes...)

(Hey, let's argue about Civilization outside the parentheses while simultaneously arguing about humour inside them, all right?)

Anyway, moving along, by "commentaries," I presume we're talking about the Civilopedia and/or Great Library and/or Datalinks, yes? Datalinks, incidentally, was woefully lacking, I happen to think, in any worthwhile description of exactly what one had just discovered.

It's been a while since I've flipped through Call to Power's "Great Library," so I don't recall whether there was an American slant to the writing or not. I don't particularly recall one. The description of the Cyber Ninja read like the dust jacket of a William Gibson novel, but certainly not like an actual William Gibson novel, so there you are. I never got the impression the text was "sprinkled with Americanisms." What is an Americanism, anyway? "Don't piss on my back and tell me it's rainin'," perhaps?

As long as everything spelled correctly... as I certainly hope I've managed to do in this post... I don't mind either way. I don't much care how they decide to spell "colour," as long as they know the difference between "breath" and "breathe," unlike 90 percent of the Internet population...

[Bulrathi]

I would like to see Civ-III become a "ruling over an Empire type game" rather than a collection of cities. For example, I find it tedious to build a University in every city, If I choose to do so, I should have the option of making a huge University in one City, A Huge set of Factories in another city, and so on..., with the impact on production, education being the same for my Empire.

CTP making the UNITS drain production from the Empire, rather than from individual cities, was a Huge positive step in this direction.

[Cartagia the Great]

I completely agree with the idea of it being a "rule the Empire, not hundres of cities". Perhapse, to do this, you'd be able to set up providences inside your nation, which could only be so big, and so small, and it would be these providences that would be affected by bulding such things as univercities, and the likes. Maybe even have the ability to build a provincial capital for one reason or another?

AS for the comedy. I like both American and British humor, and can understand both pretty well, depending on my mood at the time. I like David Lettermen, and yet love Faulty Towers, Monty Python and Dred dwarf, an strange one I am

[Eggman]

BTW, a "History Text" Replay should include major points by other civilizations as well. You know, Civ X wipes out Civ Y. Also, the key techs should be reflected:

1620AD The Chinese develop Gunpowder
1722AD The Industrial Revolution begins in England
1500BC The Golden Age of Philosophy begins in Athens, Greece.

Not all the techs should be reflected, just the big ones.

[wheathin]

For lack of a better place to put it:

Difficult gamestarts?
In addition to the usual game-start options, such as map configuring, level, number of players, etc, there should be an option to start as a latter-day civ. And not just like the Quickstart in Civ2. You would actually be starting up your empire while the computer civs have already founded several cities, and would then have to play a really hard game of catch up from the begining.

The computers would have advantages, but they wouldn't depend so heavily on just getting crushing cheat bonuses in shields and science.

wheathin

[SnowFire]

Eh... I disagree, wheathin. The problem in many games right now is that the degree of cheating stays constant thoroughout the game. The result is an extremely tough early game, followed by an easy endgame as you march to victory. What we need is not-quite-so-overpowering cheating at the beginning (better AI would help a lot here), and then the level of cheating ramped up as things look worse and worse for the computer.

[Cartagia the Great]

I think that one thing which would be intersting is if the Computer 'spices' things up a bit more. Instead of saying "Carthage and Rome make peace" the message could say "Treaty of Lughdunum: Cartahe and Rome end the Eternal War" or "30 years war" or "Ceaser's War" or something along those lines.

I would also like to see better historical accuracy in names. Instead of building the city of 'Rome' I'd like to Build 'Roma' or not 'Athens' but 'Athenae'. For that matter, perhapse there could be an option to sue the correct names for a nation, isntead of the European names. Instead of playing as the Greeks, one would play as the Hellens, or one could play as the Deutch instead of the Germans.

That would, of course, be an option, but would really add to the experience in my opinion.

For the music selection I'd like to see music the depends on the civilization, and the age. In the earlier part of the game, after going to war, I'd love to hear some Seltic War music, or any type of war music. This would change as the game went on. The music selection would be a mix of national themes, and musics to fit the mood. I DID love the Music to Civ:CTP, of course

[NotLikeTea]

I really like the idea of historically accurate names, but how do we handle Japanese names? Or Chinese? Or Russian?

Or even Mongols, who didn't have a written script till Ghengis came around.

Speaking of accuracy, I have read that Ghengis should be more accurately spelled Chinggis, Mao Testung is better spelled Mao Zedong, and I'm sure there are others.

And accurate titles! Kahn was a title for the mongols, not just a name. Chinggis was the "Great Kahn" of the mongols, not the "King."

Are you saying they should be spelt the way they are said?

I hope not!

[NotLikeTea]

Well, just for those whos names were not written in our alphabet. If it can be spelled using our keyboards, do so. If not (Japanese, Mongol, Chinese, etc) they should try to get the most accurate spelling possible. Dunno if this is always how it is pronounced (though I imagine it would be), but the history folks out there would know what to do.

While doing a project on Mao, I came across 5 different spellings of his given name (In China, the order of names are reversed. I am not on a first name basis with dead communists. Yet. )

[EnochF]

Except the Chinese actually pronounce Mao's name "Mao Tse-tung." That's what any Westerner would hear, anyway. It's only when the linguists start getting involved that problems start cropping up. You know the people I'm talking about. "My name is Jacques." "Jacques?" "No, Jacques." "Jacques?" "No, no, no! Jacques!" "That's what I said. Jacques." "Jacques, you stupid English pig-dog!" And all of a sudden "Dung Zhaoping" is spelled "Deng Qaopeng" but pronounced exactly the same. And poor Mao is reduced to a "Zedong" to make sure nobody can find him in the encyclopedia. Fortunately, the linguists haven't convinced anybody to change Genghis Khan's name to "Chinggis." Unfortunately, though, the linguists have had a field day with Russia. Thanks to the dedication of linguists who wildly disagree with each other, no two maps of Russia have the same name for everything. Kiev becomes Kyyiv or Kyiev or Kyyv or Kashyyyk. Don't expect Belarus to keep that spelling, either; it'll be Byelarus or Byelorussia or Bielaruss any day now. And don't even get me started on the five thousand spellings of Muomar Gaddafi...

[Cartagia the Great]

Well, I believe that it would be best to go for the answer that is most widly thought to be cotrrect with such things. I also agree that the titles should be accurate. I don't want to be the King of the Persians, I want to be the Shahenshah or King of Kings. Or, perhapse, instead of being Emperor of Rome you'd prefer to be called Ceaser or Augustus(all titles for Roman Emperors). Possibly even being called the Kiaser of Germany. See what I'm saying? There would be SOME difficulty, of course, but I believe that it would be worth it, it would DEFFIANLTY contribute to the atmosphere of the game

[Ecce Homo]

Cartagia the Great, Civ 2 has already got specific titles for different civs. I haven't played CtP.

The list is incomplete, however. In my rules.txt file, I have added titles like Pope, Guru and Lama for Roman, Indian and Mongol Fundamentalist leaders.

[NotLikeTea]

OK ok ok! I'll give in on the name thing, as long as it's editable, so MY Mao IS named Zedong

[Imran Siddiqui]

I also agree with the previous suggestion of nation specific music (if it isn't too hard or takes too much time). That could be very nice!

[NotLikeTea]

Or at the least region specific music.. one song per civ might be too much, but some Asian music, some African, etc would be managable...

[EnochF]

Dammit, when I'm playing in the Nuclear Age, I want rock and roll! No more of this chanting and panpipes in 2003!

In fact, with Civ 2, you could actually play the game with one of your own music CDs playing. Call to Power can manage it occasionally, too. Slight problem, though. It will never play Track 1 (because it thinks that's where the game data is stored), and it only rarely plays the higher tracks. Let's redesign the game so that you can "Play With Music CD" and it will give you real random play. Yeah, I'll conquer the world listenin' to Oasis, then settle down and build city improvements to R.E.M., then begin the colonization of space to Thomas Dolby...

(Oh, here's something that occurred to me a few months back and which I quickly rejected: If Firaxis could somehow hire big-name music talents to write some incidental music... I dunno, maybe Peter Gabriel could do something quasi-African, Enya could do a Celtic track, Trent Reznor could do a future techno thing... then mix it in with professional symphony orchestra renditions of classical music, the inevitable "sitar" track by someone we've never heard of...)

[Cartagia the Great]

Yes, your right, the lsit was incomplete, which is why I segested more of it I still hold that cities, and leaders should have more historical, or ethnical accuracy. One reason I'm glad that Stalin isn't the leader of Russia, he wasn't even Russian

I also agree that there shoudl be a selection of music for each civ based on the age and civilization in question. And no bags and pipes in 2020? ho depressing, I love music like that Although Rock would be neat. Maybe get soem old Simon and Garfunkle to paly there, Scarborough Fair would sound EXCELENT around that time period. AS for Celtic, you've GOt to get Loreena McKennit, the avatar of the goddess of Music in my humble opinion

[Ecce Homo]

If Firaxis would hire a celebrity for making the soundtrack, I would suggest E-Type. In my opinion, he is not only the King of Euro-Disco, but a universal genius of music. He has made excellent soundtracks for several Swedish TV programmes about archaeology and history. (His father is one of Sweden's most popular TV producers.)

[Eggman]

While we are on the subject of music, everytime I use the catapult, I want to hear the Stray Cats playing "Rock This Town".

"We're gonna rock this town, rock it inside out.
We're gonna rock this town, make 'm scream and shout..."

Yes, I have too much time on my hands...

[Alex]

Uhh... Firaxis could not hire Enya because she has... well... passed away. Overdose. Strange, isn't it?

[EnochF]

Er. What an odd thing to say. I shall require a second, more reliable source. I'm not saying you're wrong, merely that if you're right, she passed away without her fans, her record company or in fact anybody but you knowing about it.

In any event, I certainly hope no one goes around spreading rumors about Thomas Dolby. "Oh, I heard he was in hospital, blinded with science last week..."

[Bubba]

I'm new to the Civ III forums so please forgive me if these are repeats:

1. I would like to have the leaders pictures of Civ I back (suitably up-dated of course) instead of the heralds of Civ II or CTP. It almost felt like one was speaking to Lenin or Gengis Khan and this added atmosphere.

2. I also like the CTP system of Ages but would like more of them (something like ANCIENT, CLASSICAL, MEDIEVAL, RENAISSANCE, INDUSTRIAL, MODERN & COMPUTER) m with city graphics that changed for each age and were different from each civilization or groups of civilizations, (Northern European, Oriental, New World, Meditarean, Near East, Native American, Indian (sub-continent), Russian & African) at least until the modern age.

3. There should be multiple Leaders that change over time for the AI controlled civilizations (at least one leader for each age if a system such as CTP was adopted). Additionally, when there is a revolution a leader should also be replaced. Each of these leaders should have a different personality that would effect the game play (Washington [no alliances, allows slavery] different than Lincoln [no slavery] who is different than Teddy Roosevelt [foreign expansion, alliances]). The number of revolutions could be dependant upon the civilization which could have a revolution variable/coefficient, e.g., it could be high for the French and lower for the British, etc.

4. Someone mentioned that they would like a General/Commander unit that would give a bonus when combined with a stack of units that would become an Army. Others thought that this was overkill and wouldn't add much fun to the game. A fun version of this might be a GREAT LEADER special unit/s for each civilization that MIGHT appear randomly throughout the game and that would have to effect of either a defensive bonus or offensive bonus while in a stack (like a General) or a happiness or scientific bonus for a city (perhaps like plus 5 happiness/science). These units could not be rebuilt once destroyed and would be specific to the age in which they arrived. Moreover they would last only as long as that Age to represent their life span (Modern, Renaissance etc.) Some of these could be for example, Julius Caesar, Napoleon, Churchill, Wellington, Richard the III, Gandhi, Lincoln, Hitler, Shakespeare, Alexander the Great, Aristotle, Newton, Plato, Einstein, Lenin, Mao etc. In some senses this would allow one to get rid of some of the Wonders that are tied to people and in some ways is like Colonization, except that enemies could try to destroy these units. This would help to make every game special.

5. Bring back the city national Flags of the scenarios. I loved these and they added atmosphere. Something else which would be nice would be to have smaller versions (or related versions) of these on ships.

6. For those that would like it should be possible to name ships and units/stacks to add atmosphere. When a battle was won the computer could say: "Prime Minister, the DREADNOUGHT or INVINCIBLE has won a great battle and has been promoted to veteran status!" or "Mr. President, the 5TH ARMY has taken Midway Island!".

7. I also like (for those that want it) the ability to name mountains/rivers, special natural resources (as some have called for). Then when you discovered something the computer could say: "My liege, we have discovered X, what should we name them?". These then could be used later for the end of game wrap-up, as was mentioned before.

[Shah of Persia]

I think I have an idea that might enhance the "feel" and atmosphere of the diplomacy screen in multiplayer games. In addition to having those in-game pictures that are shipped with the game, it would be quite cool if you could scan your own picture, and attach it to the diplomacy picture frame. So you would no longer be represented by for example an ugly, bearded fool, but by your own picture, which would add to the "I am the leader" feel of a multiplayer game. It would take you one step closer to being truly and fully THE leader of your empire.
If you don't think you're very photogenic, then you could go for the included pics instead. And obviously this idea would only be of any value in MP games.
Apart from being a boost to your ego, you get to see your opponents, which is more exciting that seeing the same animated pictures over and over again.

[Shah of Persia]

I think the idea of de-emphasizing on winning could be a very important factor in making Civ even better. Take Simcity for example, you can play that game for months without getting tired, but there is no winning scenario. What drives you is achievement, success and expansion (for example trying to get your Sim's IQ highest in SimLand, trying to get enough cash for a new airport, linking up the suburbs to the centre with a new railway line, etc). You could call the successes in Simcity "projects". You set a task for yourself, and then strive to get it. When achieving something this way you get a much genuine feel of success (or maybe that's just me), than just amassing your army and wiping off every other country, and then what, game finished. No, game should go on, your Civ should prosper open-endedly. This does have implications in terms of game design,(e.g. how can you keep technology going "for ever"). But that's a question to discuss in this thread, in order to expand on an idea which might revolutionise Civ completely.

Just before I finish off, I sometimes get an "empty" sort of feeling after I have finished off the last Civ in my games. It roughly feels like all the hard work put into my empire is wasted, and to play I have to start over again. Some games are not meant to be open-ended (i.e. never ending), but I feel Civ is one of those games that really should be.

Enough of the humour thing.

I would like to see some improvements to the atmospherics of warfare. The game would be improved if it reflected the damaging effects of warfare better. Some suggestions:

. When a city is conquered, it gives off a pall of smoke for a set period. This could be linked to a period in which the city is unproductive, possibly even until some reconstruction cost is paid or work is done. May inhibit civs without funds launching mega wars and could give the graphic effect of a swathe of burning cities where warfare is intense.

. Pillaging doesn't just remove improvements, it leaves a scar upon the land. This could be represented by a symbol similar that for pollution in civ I, or smoking ruins. To bring the land back to full production, the war damage would have to be removed first in the same way as pollution. Nuclear pollution should have permanent effects until a tech is developed (a future tech, not much we can do about it with current technolgy - witness Chernobyl, that part of the Ukraine is still unusable).

. Cities that are destroyed in gameplay are marked by ruins.

. Major land battles are marked by "trophies" (the Greek idea), a flag on the site or possibly war grave icons. Possession these sites may give a points bonus.

Anyone else have ideas along these lines?

[NotLikeTea]

I don't know about the nuclear pollution.

Chernobyl is still unusable.. but look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People live there today.

yes, there are pros and cons to the nuclear pollution thing.

[EnochF]

Cool idea, Horse. Not that I need any discouragement when it comes to warfare. But I think it would be a real plus for Civ III to start presenting war, especially in the Modern and all post-Modern eras, as the horror it really is. Enough of this "We're doin' great, General!" and the drunken medieval knight. War is hell. When the enemy is shelling the crap out of your cities, it's going to take some time to recover.