CIVILIZATIONS (ver2.1): hosted by LordStone1 - Page 2

Jimmy · July 5, 1999, 23:21

Brain: love your idea.
I think it should be the same aliens from SMACX. SMAC comes after Civ3, so what better story lead in, than to have mysterious aliens come to Earth, Mankind barely escaping to Alpha Centauri only to find that Planet was home to the same aliens that almost destroyed them. The final chapter being SMACX and the third game of the "Sweep of Time" trilogy. WOW, what a plot Firaxis could have. My heart is already racing just at the anticipation.

Theben · July 6, 1999, 01:25

And I thought I was the only person who read that series!

Theben · July 6, 1999, 01:29

Brain,
That idea is so dumb it might work.

Maybe it could be a victory condition: get the aliens to contact you, and convince them that you are worthy of their technology.

NotLikeTea · July 6, 1999, 13:53

Nooooooo!

As I've said in other forums, Civ is an historical game, while SMAC is an SF game. Games that try to combine the two usually ruin both.

If Civ has aliens, I will not buy it.

PS: I also read the Worldwar series (well, second book). I'm a great fan of Alternate Histories, but I felt that the aliens spoiled it for me. Couldn't some other kind of more realistic occurance have cropped up, with equally dramatic effects? In soc.history.what-if, we refer to anything occurance that is unexplainable for the sake of an interesting situation a result of "Alien Space Bats", invoked by vigerous arm waving.

ie: In 1932, after vigerous arm waving, Alien Space Bats replace Russia with a wilderness of dinosaurs. Now what?
[This message has been edited by NotLikeTea (edited July 06, 1999).]

EnochF · July 6, 1999, 14:05

Excuse me, I have to sneeze...

Ah... ah... *optional*!

Excuse me.

(C'mon, everybody. SimCity had aliens... and the late game gets so boring without them...)

EnochF · July 6, 1999, 14:14

*sigh*
[double post]

[Somebody's got to speed up the connection at Apolyton pretty soon.)
[This message has been edited by EnochF (edited July 06, 1999).]

EnochF · July 6, 1999, 14:15

Oh, oh, and one more thing. This is about "minor" civs. I just bought Birth of the Federation and it took up most of my Fourth of July weekend.

And I've got to say that, as much as I enjoyed the system of meeting minor alien civilizations and slowly convincing them to join my Federation, I don't think this style of play would suit Civilization. Human history has only rarely proceeded in this fashion. Alexander the Great, the Roman Empire, maybe the Hapsburgs, and eventually the European powers in the Eighteenth Century. And the didn't so much assimilate as they did conquer. And really, when it comes right down to it, when the European powers were colonizing the various islands of the Americas and meeting minor tribes... let's face it, they were finding goodie huts, not minor civs.

So, my vote: minor civs, nay!

Flavor Dave · July 6, 1999, 14:30

double post
[This message has been edited by Flavor Dave (edited July 06, 1999).]

Flavor Dave · July 6, 1999, 14:31

About the Brain's idea--any aliens capable of interstellar travel, esp. in a period so short as the time between the discovery of atomic energy and 2020, would make short work of the Earth.

If you want aliens, why not just ask Firaxis to increase the barb/religious fanatic threat late in the game? Accomplishes the same thing without having ridiculously under-powered aliens.

Flavor Dave · July 6, 1999, 14:34

actually, triple post
[This message has been edited by Flavor Dave (edited July 06, 1999).]

Ekmek · July 6, 1999, 17:06

Brain: I don't like the alien idea at all, I like civ for the historical aspects. But others are right (either that or the percocet I'm taking for my wisdom teeth extraction is kicking in). An alien civ is an alternative to history and who knows it might happen tomorrow. But i think if they have that it should be an option (like bloodlust at the beginning of a game) so i doesn't show up in scenarios or if a player wants the history. I'm all for civ3 being as customizeable as possible and an alien civ option should be optional but customizeable so if you are playing a game in the new world as indians then you can edit the aliens to be europeans (or an american civil war scenario too). Also if the alien thing does happen, it should open up the possibility for a whole new tech tree because if/when something like that happens progress will definetely go in another direction.

EnochF: the minor civs thing i think is important, and a real reading of history like alexander and the Roman Empire you will see that they never conquered ever city by force a lot of cities and states bandwagoned or like roman in italy or the prussian unification of germany they forged an alliance but eventually the alliances became unification. Also alexander may have built a lot of cities but the romans rebuilt/"modernized" a lot of cities only in the new world massive city building is what made nations in europe tribes were everywhere and were assimilated, so civ in a lot of ways is unistorical by how everyone builds cities everywhere. Minor civs are essental and the presence of many should also be a feature that adds to the tech tree (every time you contact someone it stimulates progress so we can have something to mimic development rates bewteen the new and old worlds and that was contact with competing civilization because hegemonic empires tend not to progress well without outside contact).

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"Destiny has left two courses open to me on my journey to the grave. Either die young and gloriously or live long and anonymously. I choose the first." - Achilles, The Iliad

July 6, 1999, 20:17

I agree, the aliens probably wouldn't be a good idea - too much like the ending of Call to Power anyway.

However, to make the end game more interesting, why not add a late game force of super humans like the Star Trek Eugenics Wars that replace the barbarians and start to try and take over your cities. These units would be stronger than any other unit.

NotLikeTea · July 6, 1999, 20:43

Comments have been made that aliens would make the late game more interesting.

What about the novel idea of making the late game more interesting by, oh, I dunno, making it more interesting??

Look around you.. the "late game" of history is certainly as facinating as any other point in history, if not more so. The problem is that Civ handles empires and kingdoms well, but not modern states, so the post industrial revolution ero of the game seems a bit flat. Fix that up, and we'll see how exciting it is!

Ekmek · July 6, 1999, 20:52

Oh yes i agree on the late game comment and I posted a thought here but maybe it was in another thread. It requires a lot of research by Firaxis (but you know they can probably get around the research thing by asking questions on the web or requesting volunteer contribuors, I'd help). anyways... late game and some stuff that might be hard to represent but good fun and challenging if they do...

Erosion of the nation state: national borders are eroding. See the book Barber, "Jihad vs McWorld" global corporations on one end tear apart the state while smile ethno-centric tribal groups erode it as well.

Or read an article in Foreiegn affairs by Kaplan, "the Coming Anarchy." same idea but focusing on the tribal concept and the failure of law and order by distant government centers.

Then there is Huntington's article "Clash of Civilizations" where similar cultures that may compete economically become allied superstates when it comes to military action or foriegn policy in relation to other cultures (i.e. the West vs Islam etc.).

How to model these i don't know but man it would be fun!

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"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man."
- Dr. Johnson, from Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

July 6, 1999, 20:58

Aliens should be optional, in the optional continuation of the game after 2050.

Andy B · July 7, 1999, 04:56

Maby the alien tribes can be like godie huts in space.

Ecce Homo · July 7, 1999, 16:09

This has turned from the Viking thread to the Alien thread. IMO, these threads should be used for new suggestions rather than continuous discussions.

Please use this thread http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HTML/000703.html
for more opinions about aliens.
[This message has been edited by Ecce Homo (edited July 07, 1999).]

The Brain · July 7, 1999, 19:25

I was saying that the aliens should come at a certain time in the late 20th century. Maybe sometime in the fifties a strange explosion happens and maybe destorys an improvement. You would get all freaked out and wonder what it was and send out units to see what it was, but it's gone by the time you get there. You may blame someone else for it even though they didn't do it. Later when space flight comes around even more of these units pop up and leave to fast for you to find them. They could fly over your cities and startle the people making a few unhappy. You then start searching for them and start SETI to find them but don't. Wait a second! This sounds a whole lot like what really has happened in history. So whoever said that Civilization is a historical game is right, it *IS* a historical game but aliens are part of our history.

BTW, my Alien friend is very mad by everyone's comments. Have to go, here come the men in white coats!

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Acctually I'm a genetically altered lab mouse plotting to take over the world!

Theben · July 8, 1999, 00:17

Sounds like X-COM meets MOO2.

FinnishGuy · July 8, 1999, 08:03

Brain: LOL!

Aliens yeah why not, it's a game. But there should be an option to switch them off for the more skeptical minded players.

And aliens shouldn't appear in every game, maybe 1 in 20. They could be just passing by and leave mysterious debris behind (like in Strugatsky's (sp?) scifi novel Stalker) for humans to investigate. Of course they might also launch a cliche full-scale invasion instead.

The Brain · July 8, 1999, 16:12

I think there should be an option to turn it off the aliens even though *I* wouldn't. Also it should happen like 1 in 20 because then you'd be ready for it. You would have everything ready after you make the atomic bomb to find them. Maybe when you discover Space Flight the chances increase, then they increase more after you make The Apollo Program, then even more after you make SETI, and so on...

Now my alien friend is happy! Uh oh here come the men in white coats again! NO! AH! !@#$%^!&!...

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Acctually I'm a genetically altered lab mouse plotting to take over the world!

Theben · July 9, 1999, 00:35

Alright, ENOUGH!!!
Quit it with the freaking aliens already!!!
I DON'T want any aliens in civ3, I don't even want to see an option for it!!! The programmers are going to have enough work cut out for them w/o worrin' about a bunch of #$*^&*(^&(&*##/] martians!

You want aliens, make a scenario, or wait for expansion disk!

No aliens! No, no, no, no, no, NO!!!
*has stroke*

Theben · July 9, 1999, 00:39

Nix
[This message has been edited by Theben (edited July 09, 1999).]

FinnishGuy · July 9, 1999, 01:42

Theben man relax, you are taking this sooo seriously...

/SPOCK MODE ON/
I estimate there is very little or no chance of aliens being implemented in CIV3. Though a fascinating idea...
/SPOCK MODE OFF/

Feel better?

Ecce Homo · July 9, 1999, 14:49

I believe it is about time for som new ideas...

If barbarians captured a city, they could create a new civ.

_________________________________________
The best ideas are those that can be improved.
[This message has been edited by Ecce Homo (edited July 09, 1999).]

Theben · July 9, 1999, 15:32

Yeah, I'm okay, deep breaths...better. Thanks.

Ecch,
How about generic neutral civs that spit out units every now & again? When they take a city they may just loot it or add to their "empire" (it becomes a neutral city)? Kind of like Masters of Magic.

mhistbuff · July 10, 1999, 13:22

Not sure if this belongs in this thread or another....
For the most part "barbarians" were no long a threat by the 1500s or so, and many of the cultures which Europe (sorry about the western bias here) consider "barbaric" should be civs in the game (turks, mongels, etc.). In civ2 they replace barbarians with religious fanatics and peasant rebellions, but it seriously bothered me when my advanced, democratic civ had a "peasant rebellion" which I had to devert tanks to crush. Once a civ reaches a "modern" stage be it year or technology, the outcroping of barbarians should be replace by terrorist attacks. So essentially, the threat to civs change over time (or technology). Barbarians to peasant rebellions to religious fanatics and terrorists.
On a slightly different note, if barbarians or revolting peasants or whatever stay too long with out being attacked, then they should found thier own cities and become a small city-state.

Ekmek · July 11, 1999, 14:51

I'm for any way new civs can be created during a course of a game (I loved the schism thing). But I feel its great because it adds variety and realism, mainly since the number of nations have doubled in the last 50 yrs. That and in scenarios I feel constrained by having only 7 civs try to represent a situation at any given time (ww2 with multiple allies and axis would be a headache but a good challenge

)

A neutral civ function should be set up. (or more than one neutral civ). They'd be non-players like barbarians but mainly only engage in trade, and attacking them would trigger reputation and diplomatic consequences.
[This message has been edited by E (edited July 11, 1999).]

Diodorus Sicilus · July 12, 1999, 13:10

I posted most of this some time ago and some in other threads, but it's time again, and anything is better than more postings about Alien Vikings...
Early-game Barbarians should be a generic for all the 'minor civs' folk talk about: they should have more options than just attack anything that moves- provide trading partners, info about other civs they contact, middle-men for tech transfers (tech diffusion should be part of the game, but that's another Thread)
Many early civilizations would start without agriculture, as nomadic civs. I've posted (in City Improvements) a list of Improvements to the Tribe, a mobile form of 'city' that would be their population base. Barbarians could turn into either these, or by conquest into a settled 'city' civ.
Civilizations should be able to split off from the starting civs. If you've got cities on a distant island or continent, the Unhappiness/Inefficiency points from distance should translate into Rebellion after a time unless you take serious Social and Political steps to avoid it. Resulting Civ could be shown by a shield divided in half: a new color and the original civ's color.
This is all part of providing more Variety in the game: civs with variable starting positions (Nomadic Herders, Settled Farmers), Barbaians that can turn into Civs, Civs that can start from another civ. It all makes for more challenging games, and a more realistic historical model.

Diodorus Sicilus · July 12, 1999, 13:11

I posted most of this some time ago and some in other threads, but it's time again, and anything is better than more postings about Alien Vikings...
Early-game Barbarians should be a generic for all the 'minor civs' folk talk about: they should have more options than just attack anything that moves- provide trading partners, info about other civs they contact, middle-men for tech transfers (tech diffusion should be part of the game, but that's another Thread)
Many early civilizations would start without agriculture, as nomadic civs. I've posted (in City Improvements) a list of Improvements to the Tribe, a mobile form of 'city' that would be their population base. Barbarians could turn into either these, or by conquest into a settled 'city' civ.
Civilizations should be able to split off from the starting civs. If you've got cities on a distant island or continent, the Unhappiness/Inefficiency points from distance should translate into Rebellion after a time unless you take serious Social and Political steps to avoid it. Resulting Civ could be shown by a shield divided in half: a new color and the original civ's color.
This is all part of providing more Variety in the game: civs with variable starting positions (Nomadic Herders, Settled Farmers), Barbaians that can turn into Civs, Civs that can start from another civ. It all makes for more challenging games, and a more realistic historical model.