UNITS (ver. 2.0): hosted by JT3

[loinburger]

I don't like the idea of "nuke mines". They sound way too powerful, especially if stacking is used (imagine losing over 5 units because of one misstep). Not only that, a nuke mine wouldn't be realistic. If a tank runs over a mine, it loses its tread. If a soldier steps on a mine, he either loses a leg or a few more body parts. But the thing is, Civ III deals with huge numbers of troops, so if a few tanks get their treads blown off or a few soldiers become crippled it really doesn't affect the army a whole lot. I've always seen mines as HUGE numbers of mines packed together in a square, but still not enough to kill all but the most wounded or accident-prone unit moving throught it.

[Flavor Dave]

Mines have come up before. Now, I'm not against them--but as a practical matter, minefields are part of the fortress/fortification bonuses. They are part of why it is tough to take out a unit in a fortress.

[ember]

I also feel that special minefields are a bad idea. They just arn't in the scale of the game on land. It would be nice to see a couple of sea TI's. Only put in costal waters (mainly to block bays and harboours) sea mines would stop the movemnt of any unfriendly ship that moves into the square.

Other improvments, ability to build a tunnel under the ocean, max 1 square, and a SOSUS type sonar bouy system.

------------------
"Any technology, sufficiently advanced,
is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. Clark

[loinburger]

First, the way I view mines:

I would still contend that mines deserve their own unit ability. I see no reason to have a special "mine" unit, even at sea, and instead advocate the position that mining should be a TI put in by Engineers and removed by any unit (in, say, 2 turns) or an Engineer (in 1 turn, i.e. less time). Mines There would be no special "mine layer" or "mine detecting" or "mine destroying" units, not even at sea (this would, however, require that Sea Engineer units are available). As for whether mining should be a standard Engineer ability (made available with tech), a special Engineer upgrade, or an upgrade made to any unit, is up for grabs (I favor the first option). Mines can only attack+damage five units (even if there are more in the stack, if stacks are used) before they are used up, and the TI disappears. You will always know where your own mines are. Any unit adjacent to a mined square has a %chance based on its morale/veteran status to detect the mines--units with the "scouting" ability have an increased chance.


Second, why mines should even be in the game:

I understand the arguments that "mines are on a tactical level" or "mines are already part of fortifications." I do not deny this, especially the second point. However, I still think that mines should be their own TI because:
-even though they are usually used for tactical purposes (in fact, they always are), all you've got to do is up the scale by 1000%. After all, your engineers have a couple of years to put all of these mines in the ground.
-although mines are a part of fortifications, the mines themselves do nothing without a unit holding down the fort. A mining TI would serve to damage enemy units without expending support for your troops.
-one argument against mines was that pillaging roads was essentially the same thing as placing mines. I disagree. Putting several tons of explosives under a dirt road is different from removing the road due to the fact that the explosives will cause damage while the lack of a road (presumably) will not.
-one argument that was flying across the TI thread was "how do you keep enemy units from using your railroads/maglevs/etc?" Mines could be one of many solutions to this problem if mines destroy movement TI's. My suggestion was that a Maglev/Railroad/Road that was mined in which the mines were set off would be immediately degraded to a Path (either 1/2 movement or terrain/2 movement). Thus mines would serve the dual purpose of slowing your enemies as they clear/don't clear the mines, and also of automatically pillaging your movement TI's so that the enemy can't use them.

Sorry for the lengthy post.

[Theben]

This is not a thread I thought would ever need a *BUMP*.

[Mo]

Reservists: You should be able to pay a yearly fee to train reservists which you can them call up at any time to serve in your military. The more money you expend the more units you can call up. I would limit the units that can be called up to non-high tech units(almost all ancient and renisance units and regular army, tanks, bombers and fighters non stealth, marines and mech infantry)
There would have to be a limit to how long they can serve at one time. They might have to be limited to your territory that people won't over use them.

[Stefu]

Here's my idea of how Generals should be in.

General is a unit. It can't fight, but if it is part of a stack, it will rise the morale of the stack by 1-3. This isn't cumulative (you cannot stack lots of generals for lots of effects. The moral rise depends on how good the general is.

Generals have a random tendency to born. They can be born on any city of your empire. You will be noted if this happens. They have 3 factors: Loyalty, Command and Fame. Command diecides how big a bonus the stack gets, whil e generals with low loyalty may rebel against you. Fame is 0 at start, and grows if General wins lots of battles. If you have really famous generals, they can cause dropping in War Discontent. Also most famous generals are noted in table, which in multiplayer can be used as show of power "You be nice and quit, or General Lee will crush you."

Assassin is an unit which can be used in cities to target scientists (takes points away from research, bankers (target player loses money) or politicians (happiness temporaly suffers). It can also target generals. If it succeeds, general will be killed.

If city, where General has left from rebels, then General may rebel too, depending on his loyalty. If this happens, General returns home and starts commanding stack of rebel units.

Also, if general has big fame and low loyalty, he may try to coup. In this case the units of his stack rebel and appear near your capital. If he can capture capital, and there is rebellion because of happiness penalty, rebelling cities join his attempt.

Also, he is mentioned in Battle reports, like "Suvorov crushes 5 units of French Musketeers."

Foreign powers can try to bribe General. Again,the sum depends on General's loyalty and fame (More famus Generals have to be bribed with bigger sums of money.)

So, what do you say?

[Diodorus Sicilus]

Generals. Historically, durn few generals were ever assassinated. The majority who get suddenly taken off the field of play go by way of combat or old age/retirement. I'd axe the assassin as a regular unit, possibly have a Wonder/Improvement of Hashashim or Ninja, the only historically significant assassin groups.This would keep assassination down in % probability: only 1 or 2 civs could have them at all, and they would be obsolete by modern times. Contrary to the conspiracy theorists, there is little creditable evidence of government assassination plots that succeed against foreign government leaders: assassination tends to be more random, and from internal opposition.
I posted on generals a loooong time ago, less on their fame than on their capabilities (I like the famous general idea, it's good mind candy for the game). Capabilities would include that of the military staff, so ancient generals would start by allowing you to stack more units together and move them as an 'Army' under General X. Development of Conscription (mass armies) and the general can stack with even more units. Finally, develop Radio (modern communications) and the stacking limit goes up again.
The better (Veteran? or Famous?) generals would add a + factor to all units in the stack, and an additional wonder of Greater General Staff (available with conscription) would make all generals in the civ from then on Veteran. The alternative would be building lots of Military Academies to train staffs.
General's chance of getting killed in action would be random, but much higher in ancient, pre gunpowder battles, and higher when his army is attacking (good generals tend to be up front where the action is in the attack).
The Loyalty rating would be important only before Nationalism and for Coup attempts. The only historical general that I know of that changed sides since nationalism and nation-states arose (early 19th century) was A. A. Vlasov in WWII, who worked for the Nazis against Stalin. Even he, however, was captured on the battlefield first, didn't actually walk over to the opposition on his own.
One great point, the idea of a too-popular general leading the opposition is appropriate for almost any kind of government: Coups against Despots or Totalitarian (Stalin worried a lot about Zhukov's popularity) or Theocratic (look at the histories of the crusading or early Islamic Caliphates), and electorial in a Republic or Democracy. One slippery addition could be indicating whether the general is the Monarch or related to him in Monarchy. If the monarch, the civ gets a general increase in loyalty/happiness (warrior king syndrom) but if merely related then the coup probability goes through the roof as he gets popular!

[Harel]

I guess this was suggested, or atleast in a similar form.
Anyway, this is what I would like:

First off, this idea consider that:
A. We will have a unit workshop.
B. We will have weapon "imporvement" techs. Either researching upgradings, general improvment, minor techs, theoratical vs. practial... just read the Technology thread. They got tons of ideas.

My suggestion is:

You don't just design and get a new unit. You allocated cash to the propose, and decide how many turn you want to invest. You then select how would you like the unit to be.
The more money/technology/time you spend in the project, the more likely the product will be very good. For example, when you research the wheel you get a normal 4/1/2 chariot. A good design can give you up to +25% bonus to weapons, armor, HP, speed, morale and fuel, and reduce cost up to 66% of normal cost.
However, the project may also fail, making a product which is up to -25% worse in all the above catgories, and cost up to +50% more.
Spending little time or money on the product increase the chance of getting a bad product: but even a properly design project may fail.

When you create the project, you may direct your resource into: increase quality ( better weapons, cost more ), increasing quantity ( cost less but poorer performance ) and middle ground.

[Theben]

You still playing civ1? I haven't seen a 4/1/2 chariot in years....

Anyway, I'm kinda ambivalent. It could work. One thing is that if a civ encountered another civ with a superior design it would try to incorporate their design.

[loinburger]

Generals:
On the Combat thread I've posted ideas about different orders which can be given to troops: fortify, hold, conceal, scout, delay, ambush, blitz, raid, and devastate. If Generals were used, then my feeling is that they should give specific bonuses as well as overall ones. For example, if General Bob, an expert on Raiding, were to attempt any other order (including doing nothing), his stack would receive +3 to morale (General Bob talks a good fight). If, however, his stack were on a Raid, his stack would receive +3 to morale, +25% to ATT, and +25% to Retreat.
If any of my order ideas are are taken, historically famous generals could receive bonuses in their historical methods of combat (Rommel on the Blitz, Forrest on the Raid, etc.). Perhaps these generals could even be trained at Military Academies for even better performance?

As for Assasination: I agree with Diodorus that assasination should not be all that easy to do. However, I do think that if you attack an enemy stack containing a General, you should be able to target the General specifically. This would be just like a normal attack, except that your stack receives a -25% penalty to ATT, but you have an additional chance to kill the General based upon your ATT power (this would be like finding the General's HQ and launching tactical nukes at it. Not very likely that it would succeed, and not a very smart thing to do, but desperate times sometimes call for desperate measures). I don't know how feasible this idea would be, though.

[ember]

I still think induvidual general units are to much micromanagemnt. Maybe have a general in command for each region, and for attacking forces in a region sized chunk?

------------------
"Any technology, sufficiently advanced,
is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. Clark

[Theben]

The assassin unit aside, it has possibilities. The +1-3 stack bonus should depend on the system used: if each +/- = a =/-5% in a unit's combat strength then it's okay, but if based on the rates given in SMAC, then a +1 should be the max.

My only other quibble is that "loyalty" shouldn't be known to the player.

[Diodorus Sicilus]

One person's micromanagement may be precisely what the next guy enjoys doing...

[Theben]

I do believe that's the shortest message I've ever seen you post...

[loinburger]

A compromise, dealing with famous scientists, generals, politicians, entertainers, whatever:

Alright, some people like "people" units, others don't. I do, so does Diodorus, but countless others don't like the micromanagement. The solution: people get an option to turn on/off famous personalities. Each individual player can set this preference. For ex., if Johnnio doesn't like having famous general, he just turns off the option. If and when Robert E. Lee is born, Johnnio gets an army bonus for all units in a certain region. During each battle, Lee might get killed. On the other hand, Billy likes having his famous generals, so if and when Pyrrhus is born he can put him in charge on one particular stack and whupp Johnnio's butt. Johnnio's units don't get as powerful a bonus as Billy's, since Lee is spreading his influence around an area, but at the same time Lee is not as likely to get killed as Pyrrhus, and most importantly, Johnnio doesn't have to monkey around with placing/training Lee. The same could hold true for famous scientists, politicians, whatever.

However, employing this compromise would make it impossible to assassinate famous folks, since Johnnio's Lee could be ANYWHERE and couldn't be assassinated.

So what do you say, folks, will it work?

[ember]

Sounds good technophile.

How long do famous people live?

------------------
"Any technology, sufficiently advanced,
is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. Clark

[loinburger]

tough to say. If Theben's disease model (as outlined in the General/Suggestions board--Hey Theben! You posting that somewhere on the list before it gets sent?) is employed, then famous folks will accrue "plague points" based on what city/region they are located in (or how well supplied they are and what terrain they are passing through, in the case of Generals). Pulling numbers out of a hat (like I usually do), each plague point will result in a 1% chance of that famous person dying each turn (assuming that Civ III has each turn lasting the same number of years). The famous person will retire after 50 years if they haven't died.

If, on the other hand, the disease model is not employed, then the Life Expectancy number from the Demographics will determine the life expectancy of the famous person +/- 25% of that number. If the life expectancy changes during the lifetime of the famous person, then the life expectancy to be used for the famous person's age will be (current life expectancy x number of years that life expectancy is maintained + previous life expectancy) / (number of years famous person has been alive) +/- 25% to find the new life expectancy of the famous person. Retirement age will still be 50.

[Theben]

I put it in MISCELLANEOUS about a week ago, and it's slightly more up-to-date there than in the "suggestions" page.

[loinburger]

**********HEY FOLKS***********

JT3 has succumbed to the eternal menace of work, and cannot TM this thead any longer. I've volunteered to do the summary and have notified Yin of my intention. If any of you posters have any objections to my TMing this thread, speak now, or forever hold your peace. I'll begin work tomorrow.

[JT3]

Thanks, technophile. You're filling in some pretty big shoes(as Yin put it). I'll come back in a few months when I'm done with moving and the initial Full Time Student work. If you want, I'll Co-host the thread with you when I come back. And judging by how this thread grows, I think you'll definatly want me to help. Thanks again.

[loinburger]

********HEY FOLKS********

Nobody's complained yet, so it looks like I'm in for TM. Question for everyone who posts on this thread:

Regarding Famous Units (generals, entertainers, scientists, etc.), does the lack of outcry against my suggested compromise from a few days back mean that we have all reached consensus on this issue? If so, then I will include only the final consensus in the Units list. BUT, if ANY of you is still unhappy, let me know, and I'll post both sides of the argument. I just figured that Firaxis might listen more if we gave them one idea instead of two differing ones.

[ember]

I still feel that Induviduals are not in the scale of teh game. Their actions would amount to a one turn bonus, and it seems to be excessive managment for this.

If they were going to be in, the compromise would make a lot more people happy than full blown...

------------------
"Any technology, sufficiently advanced,
is indistinguishable from magic"
-Arthur C. Clark

[loinburger]

Alright, I'll include both sides then, but will include the compromise as a solution.

[loinburger]

I'm sending the Units list to Yin by 11:00 P.M EDT on Monday night. Anything else you want in, speak now, or forever hold your peace (or wait until List v3.0).

[Maniac]

Now you mention, I have an idea (although probably it will already be mentioned).

A Discoverer unit. Threats all terrain as road. Sounds like the Explorer unit, you say? The difference is that that unit should be a sea unit.
It shouldn't require much support.

And is the idea mentioned in the summary that the graphic of some pre-industrial units depends on your city style choice or just something else like on your civilization.
Eg Far East has a Samurai unit and Classical style has a Legion unit.
Note that I'm not talking about 'different units for each civ'. I'm talking about units with the same ADM and prerequisite, but with just another graphic.
Or if it's per civ and not per city style, eg English Musketeers could have a red jacket and French a blue one.

[loinburger]

HEY EVERYBODY: Here's the summary! It's done! Look it over and tell me if there's a problem. Speak quickly or forever remain silent.
**************************************

CONTRIBUTORS:
JT3, CivMike, FinnishGuy, Mo, Darkstarr, DarthVeda, Flavor Dave, Mr. Bigglesworth, Ecce Homo, Atahualpa, Sieve Too, crusher, Mikel, E, Alexander’s Horse, Icedan, Theben, Eggman, Jakester, Diodorus Sicilus, Gregurabi, Scooter, Mind Elemental, Chowlett, The Brain, Depp, Jon Miller, korn 469, wesley32, Rambler2, Tornado7, Doc, jpk, technophile, Jimmy, CivPerson, cloneodo, Jpetroski, Iceman88888888, ember, Stefu, Harel

This is Version 2 and Version 1 combined. Related theads are Combat and Movement + Supply.

There are several different views as to how attack and defense should be implemented: Att/Def, LASS, and CITV some, and there are other modifiers which have been proposed. The Combat thread has the explanations and discussions on these different combat systems. For the sake of simplicity I will use the Att/Def combat as employed in SMAC for all examples, unless otherwise stated.

You will note that this “summary” is much larger than the previous one. This is due partly to the fact that Diodorus Sicilus has provided (cringe) me with several books to summarize, partly to the fact that Firaxis wants more specific examples in List 2.0 than in List 1.0, and mostly to the fact that I’m extremely verbose.

1. Special Units

1.1. Unique Units
1.1.1. President/Emperor:
One suggestion is that this unit will have to be sent to peace conferences and UN summits. Another suggestion is that this unit will a. be able to establish cities, b. carry “crown jewels (to replace the “throne room”), c. act like the capital (wherever the leader is, that’s where you’ll have your government center), d. increase morale of your soldiers if in the radius of a battle, and e. when your last city falls, the game does not end until your leader bites the dust.
1.1.2. Famous Generals:
Would randomly appear, and would correspond to actual generals from history (adding a little brain candy to the game). Would confer Att/Def/Morale bonuses on units it is stacked with, and could also confer bonuses on units within a certain radius. Furthermore, if different unit orders can be issued (see Combat Thread), then famous generals can give bonuses in the form of combat they are expert in. General units would have 0 ATT and 0 DEF.
1.1.3. Famous Scientists:
These would confer a science bonus to the city they reside in and would also correspond to actual scientists in history. Alternatively, famous scientists could give a universal bonus in the field they are experts in (Pasteur would give a research bonus to all biological research, for example).
1.1.4. Famous Entertainers:
Like scientists, except they give luxuries bonuses instead of research bonuses.
1.1.5. Lifespan:
Two different lifespan ideas are the variable lifespan and the fixed lifespan. The variable lifespan would employ the disease model proposed in the Miscellaneous thread to determine the life expectancy of Unique units: this would explain why Alexander the Great would die in only a few turns while Grant would live a full life. Eventually, the famous unit is going to succumb to disease. A different proposal for determining lifespan is to use the life expectancy information from Demographics. The proposal for a fixed lifespan is that each famous unit only live for, say, 20 turns.
1.1.6. Premature Death:
Two ways for a unit to die prematurely: assassination and KIA.
1.1.6a. Assassination:
It has been pointed out in discussion that very few generals have been assassinated in history. Therefore, assassinations of generals and all other units should only be possible of a Ninja or similar wonder is built, and even then the wonder will become obsolete with time.
1.1.6b. Killed In Action:
If you’re leading an army into battle, you might get shot/stabbed/bombed. Therefore, every time a famous general goes into battle there is a chance that he/she will die. The odds will decrease as time progresses, since ancient commanders would lead from the front while modern commanders usually lead from behind the supply trains. To keep Generals on equal terms with Scientists and Entertainers, every time a city with a Famous Scientist to Entertainer is attacked there is a chance that the famous unit will die.
1.1.7. Defection:
If you mess around with you SE choices too much, your famous units might defect. Also, if you capture an enemy city with a famous unit in it, and the famous unit survives the conquest, the famous unit might try to defect back to its home Civ. Famous generals can go solo on occasion, meaning that they will lead a revolution against you and start their own splinter Civ which must either be integrated back into your own Civ, eradicated, or which will replace your own Civ.
1.1.8. DISCUSSION OF FAMOUS UNITS:
Thoughts on famous units fall into two categories. The first category states that famous units will provide brain candy to the game, as well as a more personalized touch and greater enjoyment. The second category states that employing famous units will facilitate far too much micromanagement, and that if any famous units are used at all they should be as “invisible influences” (such as a Famous General “unit” that will increase the morale of all of your troops in one section of your Civ).
A compromise has been proposed to seal this schism, which is that using famous units will be a personal choice made by each person playing the game. If someone chooses to use famous units, then Famous Generals, Entertainers, Scientists, and whatnot will each be a separate unit icon which can be moved about and which have 0 ATT and 0 DEF. On the other hand, if someone chooses to turn off famous units, then all Famous Generals, Entertainers, and Scientists will act as “invisible influences” on that person’s Civ, or an area of that person’s Civ. In the second option the famous units might still die in battle or from sitting in a swamp for too long, but the chance has been reduced since the famous unit is in an indeterminate location. So a person opting to take the route with more micromanagement will glean more bonuses out of his or her famous units, but those units also have a greater chance of dying in battle. The person opting to take the route with less micromanagement cannot fully employ his or her famous units (as they are locked into position and cannot be moved), but there is less of a chance of the famous unit dying prematurely.
Employing this compromise would make it almost impossible to assassinate units.

1.2. Commanding Units:
These are different from Famous Generals in that they do not randomly appear but instead can be built. They are meant to signify the level of organization used by your army. The types of commanders available will change as communication and transportation technology increases.
Further, there has been a suggestion that there be RCE’s (Random Combat Events) that could drastically change the outcome of a fight. Roll a 100 sided dice—if a 1 comes up, disaster for the defender, if a 100 comes up, disaster for the attacker, with varying other outcomes possible (the bulk of which will not affect combat). This is much like the system used in Return to Krondor. The presence of a Commander (particularly a Famous General) would add a modifier to the RCE die roll, making disaster less likely for the side of the commander.
1.2.1. Ancient Commanders:
Strategos: Can command up to 5 units of 2 different types in a stack.
Imperators: Can command up to 7 units of 3 different types in a stack.
1.2.2. Medieval Commanders:
Constable: Can command up to 10 units of 4 different types in a stack.
1.2.3 Modern Commanders:
General: Can command up to 12 units of 5 different types in a stack.
Field Marshall: Can command up to 15 units of 6 different types in a stack.
1.2.4 STAFFS:
With the proper tech advances you can add a Staff to your commander, which effectively doubles the commander’s abilities but which are extremely expensive to build and upkeep. A suggested Wonder of the World is the Great General Staff (first used in Germany, late 19th century) which would reduce training time+costs for a Staff and would also reduce upkeep.

1.3. Engineers + Settlers (note—there is a lot of overlap with Terrain + Terrain Improvements here):
1.3.1. Engineers vs. Public Works:
Having a terrain improvement system based strictly on Public Works as in C:CTP will be extremely limiting as terrain improvements cannot be built in remote regions, an especially bad prospect if Supply Rovers as in SMAC are used. Engineers should be used along with Public Works or else to the exclusion of Public Works.
1.3.2. Mines:
If mines (the kind that go boom) are used, Engineers should receive a bonus chance to remove them. See below for more on mines.
1.3.3. Sea Engineers:
You should be able to put Terrain Improvements on the sea.
1.3.4. Repairs:
Engineers should be able to repair units away from home. Units might be able to “auto-repair” like in SMAC, but an Engineer could speed up the repairs process and/or let the unit return to full HP (instead of 80% HP as in SMAC). Being able to repair a unit might also be an added capability put on in the Design Workshop.

1.4. Spies:
1.4.1. Steal Map:
Spies should be able to steal an enemy’s map—not reveal unit locations on the map, just map out the terrain improvements and cities of the enemy. If you try to steal an enemy’s tech and he has no tech that you do not have, then you instead steal his map.
1.4.2. Spy Missions:
Instead of using spies as units, there should be spy missions. Reduces micromanagement.
1.4.3. Counter-Terrorist Agent:
Anti-spy unit.
1.4.4. Assassinations:
If assassinations were to take place in Civ III, it would be simpler if spies were given the option of receiving an “assassination” special ability from the units workshop, for a hefty price, instead of having an entirely separate “assassin” unit. See Unique Units for more on assassination.
1.4.5. Defections:
Spies have consciences too. If you have your spy do too much dirty work, he might defect so that you won’t be able to push him around anymore. Very little discussion on this idea.
1.4.6. Tourist/Traveller:
These are “alternative” ideas for spies. A Tourist is a unit that you can send on vacation in order to gather information on a city. A Traveller is a unit controlled by the computer that randomly visits cities and Civs and provides information on other cities and Civs through hearsay. Killing either of these units would constitute a diplomatic penalty.
It has been suggested that these units should instead be random events, the frequency and nature of which can be determined by your SE choices (free societies will leak information more readily than societies behind an iron curtain, partly because it seems like nobody wants to visit Romania).

1.5. Nukes:
1.5.1. Different Sized Nukes:
Two levels: Strategic and Tactical (and, if the tech is right, Planet Buster).
1.5.1a. Tactical Nukes can be dropped by Bombers that have been upgraded to be capable of being fitted out by nukes. They can also be launched from the back of trucks, trains, subs, aircraft carriers, etc.
1.5.1b. Strategic Nukes can only be launched from cities and Missile Silos (terrain improvement). These are the ICBM variety—extremely expensive, but with an incredible range (can reach ANY map location).
1.5.2. Fallout:
The bigger the nuke, the more fallout you get from it. Nuclear fallout causes Nuclear Pollution, which is different from Industrial Pollution in that engineers cannot completely remove it (using present tech levels). The range of nuclear fallout should be represented by the blast and should be used to deter using nukes. Tactical Nukes, for example, might have a fallout range of 10-12 terrain tiles downwind (not every square will be polluted, of course) and 3-4 tiles upwind. Strategic Nukes will cause fallout for a range of 40-50 tiles downwind and 10-15 upwind.
1.5.3. MAD:
Mutually Assured Destruction. Helps to assure that nobody but NOBODY will use nukes unless they are insane or desperate. If you are nuked, you can use MAD to preset cities that your own Strategic Nukes will target. These nukes will be launched THE SAME TURN that you are nuked, with the firing delay varying according to how close to the enemy city your nuke is. This means that your enemy cannot simply wipe you out in one turn with a massive nuclear barrage, because he will be nuked in return before he even finishes his turn! By the time your enemy has fallen behind enough that nuking you would be beneficial despite your retaliatory capabilities, you will either have captured most or all of his nukes or else you will have had ample time to build an SDI defense.
1.5.4. Missile Silos:
Terrain improvement where you can house your Strategic Nukes.
1.5.5. Missile Bunkers:
Underground shaft where you can hide your troops in the case of a nuclear strike. Tactical Nukes have a 25% chance of destroying Bunkers while Strategic Nukes have a 50% chance of destroying Bunkers. If a Bunker is destroyed, the units it houses are destroyed. Otherwise, a Bunker will protect units from the effects of Nuclear Pollution. Missile Bunkers do not aid in conventional defense.
1.5.6. City Destruction:
Nukes will destroy and/or damage buildings in a city. The amount of damage is determined by how close the city is to ground zero and the size of the nuke.
1.5.7. Diplomatic Penalties:
I assume there will be diplomatic penalties associated with using nukes. That’s nice. See the Diplomacy Thread for details, because you aren’t getting them here.

1.6. Mines (the kind that go “boom”)
There was little to no cohesion in the debate on this topic. One group of people felt that minefields were out of the scope of the game, being more on the tactical level than the strategic or even operational level. It has also been pointed out by members of this group that mines are implicitly included in several portions of the game, such as Fortifications and Pillaging. Why have a special minefield unit/terrain improvement if mines are already a part of fortifications, and why mine a road if you can just pillage it?
The other group supported mines, feeling that they could be upgraded from the tactical level to the strategic/operational level of warfare by simply increasing the number of mines put in a terrain tile by 1000%. Members of this group also felt that mines were useful as “fire and forget” weapons, for although they are implicitly included in fortifications the fact remains that the fortifications must be manned or else the minefield does little good.
The details that follow assume that mines and minefields are used in Civ III. This is not meant to detract from the arguments of Group 1 but is included as a hypothetical model.
1.6.1. Terrain Improvements:
One group in favor of mines wanted them to be Terrain Improvements and not Units. Engineers, or perhaps any military unit, would be able to create a “minefield” TI.
1.6.1. Units:
The other group in favor of mines wanted mines to be Units which would have zero movement, zero ATT, and 8 DEF. When built they could be placed on any square controlled by you, and would disappear afterwards.
1.6.1. Sea Mines:
It stands to reason that if mines are placed underground they can also be placed underwater.
1.6.1. Terrain Destruction:
If a mine goes off in a square, it should have a chance of destroying a TI in that square. Some are in favor of the mine being able to destroy any TI in the square, others are in favor of the mine only being able to destroy movement related TI’s.
1.6.1. Loss of Mobility:
If a unit is stuck in a minefield, any damage done to that unit by enemy air units will be increased. If air units only cause “bombardment” damage ala SMAC, instead of the type of damage that they regularly caused in Civ II, then attacking a unit in a minefield will give the air unit a chance to actually destroy the unit.
1.6.1. Diplomatic Penalties:
Many have proposed that putting minefields in a city radius should cause unhappiness in that city as the farmers begin to dig up the mines and blow themselves up.
1.6.1. Using up Mines:
Mines should only be allowed to “attack” a few times. Numbers proposed have ranged from 1 time to 5 times.
1.6.1. Forgetting Where You Buried The Things:
Landmarks change, ground shifts, and maps get lost. Some have proposed that landmines always do half damage to friendly units, while sea mines always do full damage. Others have proposed that land and sea mines always do full damage no matter who steps on them, and that the location of minefields should be hidden from both friends and enemies. Still others have proposed that sea mines always cause half damage while landmines never cause damage to friendly units, but that friendly units suffer from a “loss of mobility” as described above.
1.6.1. Placing/Removing Mines:
See Engineers also. Most posters have stated that they felt that a special “mine-laying” or “mine-sweeping” type of unit would be too tedious to have to build. Instead, Engineers, or perhaps all military units, should be able to lay/sweep mines. Engineers would have the best chance of doing this. Tech level would be a factor in the success rate. Also, there could be a special unit ability which would increase the chances that a unit would successfully defuse a minefield.

1.6. Misc Special Units:
These are special units that didn’t require much explanation and weren’t screwy enough to warrant being placed in “radical ideas.”
1.7.1. Mercenaries:
Some folks are in favor of having mercenaries. Related to this is a suggestion that you should be able to lease your units out to an allie.
1.7.2. Explorers:
One of the proposals regarding units is that most units should only exist during wartime. Obviously, this would make exploration difficult. An idea which would solve this problem is that explorers will appear on their own, with the frequency and type of explorer dependant on your SE choices. For example:
Early explorers would be Warrior/Hunters. The faster your Civ grows in population, the more of these you’d get, since they’d have to go out and find more food.
When Trade is “invented” the Warrior/Hunters will be replaced by Merchant/Adventurers, who are looking for new resources to trade. Or, if Trade isn’t your forte, you’d have Prophet/Priests pop up at random, trying to spread the faith, or else a Conquistador will come along trying to spread the faith and get rich at the same time. Your SE choices will determine which type(s) of explorers you get. Merchants will spread trade routes, Priests will spread public relations and culture, and Conquistadors will spread military conquest and probably some disease.
1.7.2. Guerrilla:
Ignores ZOC’s. Has a weak attack, but receives a bonus for concealment (see Combat) as well as pillaging.
1.7.2. Refugee:
Created when a city is captured. Number created depends on destructiveness of invading army as well as extent of differences in SE choices between the conquering and conquered Civs. Refugees have 0 ATT, 0 DEF, and 1 MOV. Refugees will try to travel to a city friendly to the Civ they just left, and will confer 1 population point to that city. They are controlled by the computer and can move through any unit. Attacking a unit with a Refugee on the same square may destroy the Refugee, which would carry a slight diplomatic penalty with it. Refugees mooch off the land, so if you’ve got too many camping in a terrain tile you cannot farm or mine in that tile because the refugees have eaten all the food and stripped all the resources.
1.7.2. Merchant Fleet:
Caravans at sea.
1.7.2. Patriots/Reservists:
Depending on your SE choices and how much money you dedicate towards “reserves”, a certain percentage of your population will show up at “reservists” or “patriots” when a city is attacked. These units will be hideously weak, often armed with only clubs and pitchforks in the olden days and maybe a few handguns in modern times, but they still serve their purpose.
1.7.2. Red Cross/Ambulance:
Can carry up to 2 human (i.e. can’t carry two tanks) back to a city where those units can be healed. 0 ATT, 0 DEF, 4 MOV, treats all terrain as roads. If attacked while loaded up with wounded soldiers a diplomatic penalty will be conferred to the offending nation.
1.7.2. Partisans:
Partisans can do unlimited pillaging to a terrain during each turn. They also receive a concealment + retreat bonus.
1.7.2. Missionary/Propogandist:
Helps create happiness + prevent enemy spying, confers a minor boost to morale to your soldiers, can help alter the culture of an enemy so that he will be pressured to change his social engineering choices to more closely reflect yours, making it more difficult for him to attack you. Certain government types (Capitalism, Communism, Fundamentalism) would get more use out of a Propogandist than other government types. Would help to simulate a cold war.
1.7.2. Air Force Squad:
Mobile airbase, of sorts. x2 to Air Defense, x2 to Vision, can carry 2 aircraft. This is like a bunch of soldiers that wander around with flashlights illuminating runways for Harriers.
1.7.2. C2 Node:
This idea corresponds with Leaders somewhat, but is more radical. The idea is that orders must be transmitted through C2 (communication) nodes, the efficiency of which would determine the effectiveness of your soldier’s combat. Examples of C2 nodes through the ages would be towers (for fire signals), horse carriers, telegraph, phone, radio, and satellite. Two possibilities for this: the farther your troops get from your border, the lower their ATT and DEF since they are less well organized. Second possibility: if a C2 node is captured/destroyed, you will temporarily lose control of the soldiers it relayed messages to (they will try to make their way back to your border), but their position will be made known to the enemy that took the node.
1.7.2. Decoys:
Cheap units that can be cranked out quickly. Zero ATT, zero DEF, requires no support, looks like a real unit (unless enemy’s scouting ability identifies it as a decoy). Can make a molehill look like a mountain. If only one unit is normally destroyed each turn in a stack, this rule will not hold true for decoys—if a decoy is discovered it is essentially destroyed, so there is a % chance each turn that a stack holding a decoy is attacked that the decoy will be destroyed (i.e. discovered).
1.7.2. Chemical/Biological Weapons:
Poor man’s nukes. May cause plagues (see Misc.). Can be dropped from aircraft + fired from artillery with proper upgrades. Carries diplomatic penalties with it. Not nearly as powerful as nukes, and do not cause pollution (chemical weapons usually dissipate within minutes, days, or weeks, not years).
1.7.2. Supply Convoy:
Ala SMAC. Note, however, that on the Terrain thread it has been suggested that a TI replace this unit idea.
1.7.2. Mobile Radar Jammer:
Ala Command and Conquer. Prevents spy planes and spy satellites from peeking in on your business.
1.7.2. Mobile SDI Defense:
Just what it sounds like.
1.7.2. Spy Satellite:
Keeps a constant watch over an area. Can be moved later if your opponent builds a Radar Jammer and screws you up.


1. Land Units

2.1. The List of Proposed Land Units (excluding Special Units):
Cannonades: Between Cannon and Howitzer
Longbowmen: Advanced Archers
Train Artillery: Massive cannons mounted on railroads. Can only move on tracks.
Swordsmen: Between Legions and Musketeers
Frogmen: (3,3,3) Land and Sea unit.
Hovercraft: (5,6,4) Upgraded Land and Sea unit.
Bradley APC: (0,6,3), carries 6 units, treats all terrain like roads, cannot carry mech. units
5-Ton truck (0,5,3), carries 4 units, cannot carry mech. units
Train (0,4,1) Can only move on railroad tracks, can carry 8 units, mech or not
Mobile Rocket Launcher
Rangers
Trench Troops (only high DEF when fortified)
Land to air missiles (battlefield use only, ONLY offensive ONLY planes).
Patriot missiles (battlefield and carrier use only, must fortify to activate, ONLY defensive against ONLY missiles for 5 x 5 area around it)
Land to land missiles (kind of like a SCUD) that would be launched via trucks--the graphic would indicate that. You would fire it by hitting a key, with a range of 10, and then it would have to "reload" somehow)
2.1. DESIGN WORKSHOP:
Most of what follows is regarding the Design Workshop. The categories for things being put on a unit are Chassis, Weapons, Armor, and Special Capabilities.
2.1. Chassises:
Each Chassis, unless otherwise noted, can carry one weapon type, one armor type, and one Special Capability.
2.1.1. Man:
A bunch of men (or women) on foot.
2.1.1. Horse:
The ridden animal. Faster, etc.
2.1.1. Camel:
More suited to desert terrain. Not as good at combat, but less susceptible to heat stroke + dehydration + other fun stuff.
2.1.1. Elephant:
+50% to ATT for an extra cost (can carry more riders), cannot have a Special Capability, are 2x as effective against horse-mounted units (elephants scare the living daylights out of horses), armor is only 50% effective on an Elephant (since there’s so much to cover up), are not available to everyone (if you don’t have elephants on your land, you can’t use them as a Chassis), and they are more vulnerable to gunpowder type weapons.
2.1.1. Chariot:
There were actually 3 types of chariot in history (light, medium, heavy), but for simplicity there will probably be only one used in Civ III. Can receive +50% to ATT for extra money (can carry multiple riders), only 50% armor factor, requires Wheel and Domestication (although not necessarily the horse).
2.1.1. Motorized:
Truck, motorcycle, armored car, whatever. Weapon, armor, and Special Capabilities depend on size—the more you spend, the more powerful and less mobile it becomes. Requires Internal Combustion engine.
2.1.1. Tanks, APC’s, etc.
Weapon, armor, and Special Capabilities depend on size—the more you spend, the more powerful and less mobile it becomes, and also make the vehicle more vulnerable (if the thing can’t move, how are you going to defend it?) Requires Internal Combustion, Suspension Systems, and Continuous Track.
2.1. Offensive Weapons:
2.1.1. Spear/War Club/Axe:
Carried by Man or Mounted (chariot, horse, camel, elephant) chassis.
2.1.1. Sword:
Basic slashing sword, requires Bronze Working, carried by Man or Mounted although not as effective when carried by mounted.
2.1.1. Thrusting Spear:
Requires Bronze Working, needed for Phalanx. When carried by Mounted unit becomes Mounted Lancer, which might become Knight.
2.1.1. Iron Sword:
Long slashing or short stabbing, required for Legion, carried by Man or Mounted.
2.1.1. Pattern Sword:
Advanced folded forge sword, very expensive, requires Wrought Iron or Blast Furnace, required for Samurai.
2.5.6. Pike:
Extremely long two-handed thrusting spear, requires Iron Working and used by Pike Phalanx (used by Alexander the Great), carried by Man.
2.5.6. Bow:
Early pre-4000 B.C. bow, used by Man and Mounted both. Ranged weapon.
2.5.6. Composite Bow:
Horn-bone-sinew recurved bow or central Asia, more powerful than Bow. Can be carried by Man or Mounted. Requires Domestication, Nomad Civilization type, and over 50% plains, desert, or grassland in your city radius. If you had forests, you wouldn’t have made these.
2.5.6. Long Bow:
Requires Steel (for arrow points). Only carried by Man.
2.5.6. Lance:
Requires Steel and Stirrups. Carried by Mounted. Powerful.
2.5.6. Catapult:
Hurls rocks, Man chassis only. Requires Mathematics.
2.5.6. Bombard:
Early cannon—first real use of gunpowder, has special chassis (carriage and limber) which is extremely slow, but can also be mounted on Motorized or Mechanized chassis.
2.5.6. Musket:
Carried by Man or Mounted, less effective if mounted.
2.5.6. Cannon:
Requires Gunpowder, Ballistics, Bronze Casting. Man chassis.
2.5.6. Horse Artillery:
Requires Cannon and Tactics: Mobility. Less attack and more expensive than Cannon, but faster.
2.5.6. Rifle:
Requires Percussion Caps. Carried by Man or Mounted.
2.5.6. Machine Gun:
Requires Machine Tools and Smokeless Powder. Carried by Man, Motorized, or Mechanized.
2.5.6. Artillery:
Requires Machine Tools, Hydraulics, and Exterior Ballistics. Motorized (weaker) or Mechanized.
2.5.6. Rocket:
Not the nuclear kind—more like a Bazooka or Multiple Rocket Launcher. Requires Rocketry. Mounted, Motorized, Mechanized.
2.5.6. Ghost Laser:
Laser that makes you a ghost. Really powerful. Can only be carried by Ghost Laser chassis. Requires Ghost Laser tech and Super Discombobulation tech.
2.5. Defensive Armor:
2.6.1. Scale Armor:
Requires Bronze Working. Carried by Foot or Mounted.
2.6.1. Mail Armor:
Requires Iron Working. Carried by Foot or Mounted. +50% improvement to DEF from Scale.
2.6.1. Plate Armor:
Require Wrought Iron. Carried by Foot or Mounted. +100% improvement to DEF from Scale.
2.6.1. Shields:
The above armor types could also have Shields mounted, which would increase defense from Ranged attacks by +50%.
Scale Armor: oval Pelta
Mail Armor: round Viking or Germanic
Plate Armor: Kite
Phalanx (special): large round Hoplon
Legion (special): Roman Scutum
NOTE: Shields don’t protect against Catapults and such, for obvious reasons.
2.6.1. Riveted Armor:
Requires Steel. Carried by Motorized or Mechanized. Add as much as you want—it will increase DEF and decrease MOV until it can’t be moved and could survive a nuke.
2.6.1. Welded Armor:
Requires Electric Arc Welding and Face Hardening. Carried by Motorized or Mechanized. Same quantity rule applies.
2.6.1. Composite Armor:
Requires Composite Materials. Carried by Motorized or Mechanized.
2.6.1. NOTE ON VEHICLE GRAPHICS:
Riveted armor: Boxy, studded with rivet heads.
Welded armor: rounded look, like WWII tanks.
Composite armor: angular, like modern tanks.
2.6.1. Ghost Armor:
Protects you from being a ghost. Requires Ghost Sciences and Phantasmagoria.
2.6. Special Capabilities:
2.6.1. Amphibious
Applicable to modern forces only, reduces ATT and DEF slightly.
2.6.1. Airborne:
Applicable to modern forces only, requires maximum weight limitations, may reduce ATT and DEF. (this is for air transport purposes).
2.6.1. Reconnaissance:
Applicable to all periods. Increases vision, maintenance. All Barbarian and Nomad Civs have this capability automatically.
2.6.1. Sapper:
Requires Flamethrowers, Special Explosives. Increased ATT against forts, fortifications, city walls, etc.
2.6.1. Night Vision:
Requires Laser, Imaging, Computer. Increases ATT, DEF, MOV.
2.6.1. Anti-Tank:
Requires Rockets, Monroe Effect Explosives. Increases ATT and DEF against Motorized and Mechanized chassis.
2.6.1. Alpine/Mountain/Jager:
Requires Military Skiing, Light Alloys, Special Explosives. All-terrain light infantry.
2.6.1. Ranger/Special Forces/SAS/Commando/etc.:
Requires Special Explosives, Light Alloys. Very expensive, very high maintenance. Man, Mounted, and Motorized only—no Mechanized. (extremely expensive if Motorized). Unit can perform some Spy actions, like ignore ZOC, destroy city wall, poison water, whatnot. Note, SOME spy actions.
2.6.1. Cluster Bombs:
Used by Bombard units. Creates “frag mine” field in target square which attacks any unit passing through it with ATT 1 or 2 (up to 5 units, then disappears). Any unit caught in the frag mine field suffers double damage from Bombers and Artillery. Units with this special ability can still use a normal attack.
2.6.1. SAM:
Surface to Air Missile capable. Doubles defense against air units.


2. Air Units

3.1. The list of proposed Air Units (excluding Special Units):
Crop Plague Plane: Destroys farms and irrigation
Biplane: Drops paratroopers
AWAC: Like spy plane, but shorter range, gives DEF bonus to any air units within 4 square radius.
Anti-Sub Helicopter: x2 ATT against subs, increased detection range against subs
Jets that can carry cruise missiles or laser guided bombs.
A radar device of some sort.
Helicopter Transport: (0,6,10) carries 4 units, can load/unload in any square.
C-130 Plane (0,5,10) carries 2 units
C-141 Jet (0,6,15) carries 4 units
C-5 Jet (0,8,20) carries 8 units
Balloon (0,1,10) has Recon
Blimb (0,1,15) has Recon
Seisina Plane (0,1,20) has Recon
SR-71 (0,1,30) has Recon
Apache Attack helicopter upgrade
Jets that carry 2 missiles
Triplane, then Biplane, then Fighter
Modern non-stealth fighter
Modern non-stealth bomber
Strategic Bombers: destroys or disables city improvements. Redundant if bombardment already accomplishes this task (see Combat).
Fighter-Bomber: 80 shields, ATT of 8, weaker intercept abilities, could attack and return on the same turn. Redundant if Bombers are allowed to attack and return on the same turn in Civ III.
3.1. The Argument on Bombers:
3.1.1. Bombers should not be allowed to destroy a unit—they should only be allowed to do “bombardment” damage. This is more realistic and would make it so bombers cannot be abused.
3.1.1. That would kill the purpose to having bombers. They are already weak enough since they can’t attack and return on the same turn. If you want realism, play two turns and die of old age.
3.1.1. Bombers should cause a “diminishing returns” on the damage they cause, so that the weaker an enemy unit is the less damage will be caused by the bombing run. There will still be a possibility, however, that the enemy unit will be destroyed. This is especially true if Cluster Bombs or Mine Fields are used, which would increase the abilities of bombers.
3.1.1. The Consensus: Bombers should be able to attack and return on the same turn. As for the rest, the arguments are in front of you, and there is no consensus.
*******Below are two similar ideas dealing with the design workshop for air units. The one that is shorter is shorter by virtue of the fact that it’s author, Theben, did not write an entire novel for me to condense, as Diodorus Sicilus did.
3.3 Form:
3.3.1. Type:
Type is I or II. I is the Bomber. II is the Fighter.
3.3.1. Range:
Short-range aircraft are capable of making multiple attacks in a turn. Long-range aircraft sacrifice payload for fuel. If used in short range, the ATT of long-range aircraft will be increased.
3.3.1. Speed:
Speed is separate from Range, since air missions will be fought within one turn. It is implied in ATT/DEF.
3.3.1. Chassis:
3.3.4a. Wood&Wire:
Biplane configuration. Limited in capacity, can mount no more than 2 powerplants.
3.3.4b. Metal Monocoque:
WWII style. Can mount up to 4 powerplants and greater capacity. Requires Light Alloy, which requires Hydroelectricity.
3.3.4c. Composite Alloy:
Modern style. Can mount up to 4 powerplants. Requires Composite Materials processing.
3.3.1. Propulsion:
Propulsion will increase depending on the airframe used—the more modern the airframe, the more effective the propulsion.
3.3.5a. Internal combustion propulsion. All airframes.
3.3.5b. Jet propulsion. Metal Monocoque and Composite Alloy only. Unmanned, it is a Cruise Missile.
3.3.5c. Rocket propulsion. Metal Monocoque and Composite Alloy only. Unmanned, it is an ICBM.
3.3.1. Air to Air Armament:
Note that ATT and DEF are largely defined by Airframe and Propulsion as well. All weapons have a weight factor associated with them, and if your airplane gets too heavy, then your ATT and DEF associated with Airframe and Propulsion will drop.
3.3.6a. Machineguns (only weapon that can be put on Wood&Wire)
3.3.6b. Machine Cannon
3.3.6c. Guided Missiles
3.3.6d. Infrared Homing Missiles
3.3.6e. RADAR Homing Missiles
3.3.6f. Beam Riding Missiles
3.3.6g. Ghost Laser—composite airframe only. See Land Units for description.
3.3.1. Air to Ground Armament:
Most bombs come in different sizes, from 500 lbs. to 2000 lbs. or so.
3.3.7a. Iron Bombs—any airframe
3.3.7b. Guided Bombs—requires Guidance Systems
3.3.7c. Air to Ground Rockets—any airframe
3.3.7d. Guided Missiles—requires Guidance Systems
3.3.7e. “Smart” Ordinance—requires Computers, Miniaturization, (AI?)
3.4. Options + Add-ons:
If only a single airframe is used (as one suggestion has been), then Biplane, Advanced Plane, and Jet are special options. Older options cannot attack newer options, but newer options can attack older ones. Heavy Bomber is an option which can be put on a Bomber to give it certain abilities for combat missions. Other options and add-ons are:
3.4.1. RADAR:
Comes in three flavors: Ground Attack, Air Attack, and Air Defense.
3.4.1. Naval Attack:
Attacking ships from the air normally lowers the probability of success, as it takes special training. This will eliminate those penalties.
3.4.1. Anti-Submarine:
Very heavy, but greatly helps an aircraft in attacking a sub.
3.4.1. Air Drop:
Allows aircraft to drop paratroopers and supplies.
3.4.1. ECM:
Increases DEF against SAM attacks.
3.4.1. Stealth:
Composite Alloy airframe only. Increases DEF against missiles and negates enemy RADAR effects.
3.4.1. Nuclear Capable:
Unit can drop nukes.
3.4.1. Chemical and Biological Weapons Capable:
Unit can drop Biological and Chemical weapons.
3.5. Combat Missions:
3.5.1. Bombard:
Air unit bombards a specific unit. Heavy Bomber damages all units in square regardless of defenses (although city and fort units take less damage). May reduce city population if attacking a city. Cannot bombard a concealed unit. Biplanes have only this mission and support/intercept available.
3.5.1. Scorched Earth:
Attacks buildings and population of city. May attempt to target specific city structures for greater risk of failure. In country, pillages terrain. Laser-targeting and perhaps other tech advances (like satellite mapping) will increase chance of success. Heavy Bomber does more damage than regular aircraft.
3.5.1. Interdict:
Heavy Bombers only. Target one or more squares: any unit (friend or foe) in or attempting to pass through squares is attacked by the bomber and expends triple MP’s to enter and leave. The more squares that are selected, the less effective the interdiction. Interdiction causes less damage than bombardment.
3.5.1. Air Support/Intercept:
Air unit acts as artillery in combat as support for ground forces, during the attack or defense. Range of this action is ½ the Range of the aircraft. Fighters may be put on Intercept duty (like Sentry duty) and would attack any enemy aircraft that entered their range. Humans would be allowed to save their intercept until later. Fighters may also be sent to intercept in the same square where the bombers are supporting, which would help reduce enemy interception capability. Effectiveness of this order is determined by present level of Communications and Tactical tech advances.
3.5.1. Carpet Bombing:
Attacks ONE unit in a square with intent to destroy it. (note that if Heavy Bombers are used then either Bombing Runs or Bombardment will have to be modified). Unit attacked is semi-random (who gets attacked is based partly on which unit is easiest to spot), and effectiveness of attack is partly determined by how easy it is to spot the unit which is attacked. In order of hardest to spot + destroy to easiest: Spy/Scout/Diplomat, Settler/Engineer, Infantry, Caravan/Freight, Cavalry/Mounted unit, Mech/Armor unit.
3.5.6. Strategic Bombing:
Attacks a specific unit, a square with TI’s, or a city. Only available with certain tech advances, such as Targeting Radar or Photo Reconnaissance. Additional tech advances, such as Satellite Mapping and Laser-Targeting, make Strategic Bombing more likely to succeed.
3.5.6. Air Transport:
Air unit moves ground units around.
3.5. Helicopters:
These fellas are funny, as they are kind of air units and are kind of ground units, in that they don’t have to return to base every turn. However, they are included under air units because they have been air units in the past (SMAC design workshop) and because they are capable of flying many of the missions allowed by aircraft, notably Interdict and Support.
Once the Helicopter Advance comes around, there can be several other advances which follow and increase the usefulness of Helicopters:
2.6.1. Medevac:
Helps turn permanent casualties into temporary casualties by bringing wounded troops back for treatment before they can die. Any stack with a Medevac Helicopter has its Hit Points increased by +50%.
2.6.1. Air Assault:
2.6.1. Sea Kings:
Special Capability for surface naval units. Provides Reconnaissance (double vision range) for naval unit, +25% ATT for guns and missiles, and +50% DEF against cruise missiles. If added to an AntiSubmarine ship, it doubles ATT on submarines. Extremely heavy, though.


2. Naval Units

4.1. List of Naval Units:
U-Boat (early, expires)
Submarine (later, never expires)
Seawolf (later, more powerful, never expires)
Old aircraft carrier
New aircraft carrier
Old battleship
New battleship
4.1. Range:
Naval units can only stay at sea for a certain length of time, and must return to a “base” periodically depending on their range. This makes early explorations easy, except when exploring some particularly nasty environments.
4.1.1. Ancient Ships and Sailing Ships:
Unit must stop at a friendly city, or beside any square containing a agricultural TI (farm, irrigation), plains, grassland, jungle, or forest.
4.1.1. Powered Ships:
Unit must stop at a friendly city as a refueling station.
4.1. Chassis:
Wood and iron hulls get pounded to pieces by the ocean if they’re too large. Steel hulls can be any size, but of course that increases their cost, slows them down, and makes them easy targets.
4.1.1. Wood Plank Hull:
Requires Wood Working. Available early.
4.1.1. Wood Clinker-Built Hull:
Requires Joinery (medieval) Sturdier than above, larger vessels and longer sea ranges.
4.1.1. Iron Hull:
Requires Wrought Iron, Blast Furnaces, etc.
4.1.1. Steel Hull:
Requires Bessemer or Open Hearth Steelmaking. Unlimited size.
4.1.1. Types:
There are two alternative hulls for each of the above types—speed (long and narrow) which has a high ATT and DEF but little to no range and cargo capacity (early on, at least), and cargo (fat and wide) which has very low ATT and DEF (early on, at least) but great range and cargo capacity.
4.1.1. Special:
4.2.6a. Catamaran:
Higher cargo and range than ancient hulls, less than modern hulls. Should be given some serious penalties to keep game balance.
4.2.6b. Pressure Hull:
For Submarines. Pretty much requires Steel Hulls.
4.1. Propulsion:
4.1.1. Oars:
Available anytime.
4.1.1. Sweeps:
Requires Geometry or Ancient Naval Architecture. Really, really big oars. Used on galleys and polyremes.
4.1.1. Sails:
Requires Clothmaking or something.
4.1.1. Advanced Sails:
Clipper ships and whatnot. Requires Mechanics and some Geometry.
4.1.1. Steam:
Steam engine on a ship. Requires Steam Engine.
4.1.1. Steam Turbine:
Semi-modern naval propulsion. Requires Steel, Special Alloys, and of course Steam Engine.
4.1.1. Diesel-Electric:
Requires Electricity, Generator/Motor, Diesel. Used on submarines before nuclear reactors.
4.1.1. Nuclear:
Requires Nuclear Propulsion or Nuclear Power advance.
4.1. Weapons:
Attacking is all close combat early on, until siege engines are mounted on ships or until the invention of Gunpowder.
4.1.1. Ram:
Requires Bronze Working. Cannot be mounted on Catamarans. Low ATT when on a Sailing vessel. NO ATT when enemy has Cannon.
4.1.1. Boarding:
Depends on the offensive weapons of your ground units.
4.1.1. Catapults and Greek Fire (upgrade to Sea Catapults only):
Requires Mathematics.
4.1.1. Cannon:
Requires Cannon, Gunpowder, and maybe Naval Truck/Carriage.
Note that fast ships usually can’t carry Catapults or Cannon.
4.1.1. Artillery:
Requires same advances as ground artillery.
4.1.1. Torpedoes:
Requires Smokeless Powder and Steam Engine.
4.1.1. Depth Charges and Homing Charges:
Developed after Submarine.
4.1.1. Missiles:
Same as Rockets or Cruise Missiles.
4.1. Defense:
4.1.1. Cataphract:
Requires Wood Working or Joinery. Wooden hulls only.
4.1.1. Iron Armor:
Requires Wrought Iron. Wooden or Iron hulls only.
4.1.1. Nickel-Steel Armor:
Requires Steel and Special Alloys. Iron or Steel hulls only.
4.1.1. Compartmentalization:
Requires Ancient Naval Architecture. Any hull but Catamaran.
4.1.1. ECM:
Requires Electronics, Computers. Any hull type.
4.1.1. Point Defense Weapons—Anitaircraft/Anitship:
Requires Special Alloys, Computers, Miniaturization.
4.1.7. Each hull has a built-in DEF factor. A small, fast ship is harder to hit than a large slow one.
4.6. Special Capabilities:
4.6.1. Antiaircraft:
Radar spotters, guns, and/or missiles. Requires same advances as these.
4.6.2. AntiSubmarine:
SONAR, MAD, possibly depth charges and homing torpedoes.
4.6.3. Amphibious:
For supporting landing troops.
4.6.4. Container Cargo:
Requires Trade and Pottery or Wooden Barrels. Increases speed and efficiency of freight/trade handling.
4.6.5. Aircraft Handling:
Flight deck, Hanger deck, and whatnot. Requires Advanced Flight.
4.7. Upgrading:
Hulls can never change from Speed to Cargo or vice-versa. Nothing can be made into a Pressure Hull.


5. General/Radical/Misc Ideas

These ideas are, for the most part, unrelated to each other. I just needed a place to put them. DO NOT overlook this section. Many of the ideas that follow are excellent, but they didn’t belong anywhere else.

5.1. Unit Form/Theory:
5.1.1. Sense Range:
Detection range for a unit. Changes with techs and special abilities like Reconnaissance.
5.1.2. Units consist of fractions of army types. For example, one type of unit might consist of 300 warriors and 200 bowmen, and you could call this type of unit “the flying monkeys”. Problem: you can already do this by stacking units ala C:CTP.
5.1.3. You should be able to design your own units.
5.1.4. You should be able to upgrade units, but be semi-realistic about it—you’re not going to suddenly have iron shields for the phalanx that’s 10,000 miles away. But at the same time don’t be picky, or nothing will get upgraded.
5.1.5. Have units automatically upgrade themselves, up to a certain point and at a moderately slow speed.
5.1.6. Units upgrade somewhat when they defeat a higher tech unit, assuming that unit was of the same type (so what if your Archers shot down a squadron of F-16’s, what in heck are they supposed to do with the scrap?)
5.1.7. Units have semi-random ATT/DEF values. For example, a Rifleman might have DEF anywhere between 4 and 6. You don’t really know until you build it, or unless you scout out the enemy pretty well. Adds a greater element of chance to the game.
5.1.8. Upgrades are not automatic, they require investment. The project might be a resounding success with higher ATT/DEF/MOV and a lower production cost, or it might be a miserable failure with lowered ATT/DEF/MOV and a higher production cost.
5.1.9. Each unit has a size/mass rating, which determines how many of them can be crammed on a Transport.
5.2. Building Units:
5.2.1. Some units require special city facilities, for example Knights would require Stables and Nukes would require a Missile Silo and an Advanced Weapons Facility.
5.2.2. Recruit instead of build units. Build the weapons in one city and raise population to fight in another. Problems: micromanagement, requires large population in order to fight a war which puts the AI at a disadvantage (the AI does not take advantage of “we love” days and therefore winds up with much less population).
5.2.3. Many tech advances, such as Doctine: Flexibility or The Legion would increase ATT, DEF, and MOV for a unit by allowing for a new military formation. Even if you’ve got Iron working, for instance, you still can’t make a Legion until you have the military theory down. Perhaps Formation could be a part of a unit. This would also allow for more incremental unit upgrades.
5.2.4. It should require population to create a unit. Problem: the same as 5.2.2, the AI is at a disadvantage. Solution: fix the AI. Problem: easier said than done. Alternate solution: Create Soldier Specialists, Specialists essentially produce nothing but spend their time supporting your soldiers. Problem: The AI is still at a disadvantage, and Soldier Specialists could cause micromanagement nightmares. Final Consensus: Nothing agreed upon.
5.2.5. You can create a Brigade variation of a unit that has lowered HP and ATT/DEF, but which takes less time + money + support than the real thing.
5.2.6. You can prolong the build time of a unit in order to confer additional experience on it.
5.3. Misc:
5.3.1. Be able to name and organize units/groups.
5.3.2. Have multiple levels of experience. Also, have there be a distinction between “morale” and “experience.” Morale counts for a little bit, but Experience counts for a lot. Or, do away with Morale altogether and replace it with Experience.
5.3.3. Have units lose experience over time if they’re not fighting. Represents the fact that the unit isn’t living forever, and also the fact that the unit is becoming fat and lazy from its life of ease.
5.3.4. Have two options for some units, such as Regular Phalanx and Heavy Phalanx, which would cost twice as much and have twice the power. Problem: why not just build two Regular Phalanxes?
5.3.5. “Religious” units that 1% of the posters liked:
The following religious units will “convert” cities and units, and will also create happiness in your cities.
Witch Doctor: The unit type you start out with.
Priest: Requires Mysticism.
Guru: Requires Polytheism.
Bishop: Requires Monotheism.
Prophet: Requires Fundamentalist government.
These units have a chance of wandering into cities and “converting” them, which is the same thing as the Spy and Diplomat ability “incite revolt” except that it’s free. Problem: Free? What, are you mad?
5.3.6. Provide additional unit sprites on the CD for ease in customization.
5.3.7. Ability to make your own unit flags.
5.3.8. Units can be taken “off alert” in order to reduce support costs on the unit while you don’t need them.

[loinburger]

Well, as you can see, the numbering didn't come out perfectly when I cut and pasted. Don't worry, the copy I'll send to Yin won't have that problem.

[Theben]

2 things: one I didn't see my version of mines, that they act as "hostile terrain" that causes damage to units passing through, and 2) this version of LASS which I just posted. Can you please fit it in?

My Combat, with LASS Final version


1) 1st off I need to point out how the unit workshop idea should be:

• L/A/S/S running down the left side;
  
• The unit picture in middle;
  
• Hit Points, Firepower, Range, and Movement on the middle right side;
  
• All unit OPTIONS on the far right. A single unit can have many options, much more than 2 as in SMAC.

1a) How they work:

• L/A/S/S has been discussed before. Each represents the strength of the unit in that domain.
  
• Click on the unit picture and a picture list (like SMAC) will show all the possible chassis types to change the unit to. I prefer this because you'd be able to see what the other factors are of the unit while changing the chassis, with unit costs. In SMAC one has to go back & forth between the unit screen & chassis screen, which is a pain with slower machines.
  
• These are set when the OPTIONS & chassis, strengths of unit are chosen, but it is possible that minor changes could be made to the unit here. Chassis types are:
  
  Land Sea Air Space
  Infantry-------- Wooden hull-----------Plane------------Satellite
  Mounted------- Iron hull----------------Airship----------Spacecraft?
  Motorized------Steel hull?-------------Helicopter
  Mechanized------------------------------Missile
  
  Note- Dashes are for spacing purposes only.
  
  
• This is the heart & soul of unit design. See below.

1b) Unit OPTIONS list:

• Anti-Personnel, or AP
• Brigade
• Heavy
• Cavalry contingent
• Nomadic
• Settler
• Engineer
• Immune to Terrain- list types
• No support needed
• Artillery
• Camouflage
• Partisan
• Nuke
• Single shot
• Nuke DEF
• Scouting
• May engage domain L/A/S/S

Plus various other options found in Civ2 & SMAC (CtP?). Note that with LASS many options aren't needed ( attack air, x2 air, etc.) but some may still be necessary(x2 horse).

1c) Definitions:

• AP- This adds =100% to land STR vs. infantry & mounted units. Refers to machine guns, and is available around the same time. Land, Air chassis only.
• Brigade- Reduces the total hp's of a unit by 1/3rd, and may drop it's STR by -1 in all domains (never less than 0). Also substantially reduces the unit cost, and opens up several Options to the unit in workshop. After Guerilla Warfare like brigades may combine into a division (3 brigadesà 1 division, or regular unit) or a division may break down into 3 brigades. This is based on Mao Tse Tsung's 3-tiered doctrine of guerrilla warfare. Available to all chassis.
• Heavy- Gives various bonuses/penalties to each unit type. Note that a unit may be both 'brigade' and 'heavy' at the same time:
  
• -Inf/Mount/Motor/Mech receive +1 to all domains they affect & +20% hp's. This also increases the size of the unit for transport purposes.
• -Wooden hull receives bonuses as above to sea, land also if it can affect it. Also +50% cargo capacity.
• - Iron/Steel hulls receive +2 STR to land & sea, +1 to air (if applicable), and +1 HP (i.e. 10 points). Also +50% cargo.
• - Planes become heavy bombers, and may not engage air (they can have air STR for defense). They get all benefits of heavy bombers as described by me elsewhere, and all penalties. Non-heavy bombers that do not engage air are strike bombers (though most of these had minimal fighter capability). In addition, heavy allows planes to be transports with a minimal cargo capacity (1 in civ2/SMAC). They also get a larger operational area than non-heavy planes (x2 distance). Heavy bombers may not land on carriers.
• - Airships & Heli's get increased range and the cargo capacity of heavy bombers (airships get x3 distance). Increased space on carriers.
• - Missiles become intercontinental, and/or receive +50% STR to its domain. They also take up more space in transports.
• - Satellites, spacecraft, who knows? Bonus to STR?
  
• Cavalry contingent- This negates or decreases the bonus of mounted units in open terrain vs. infantry, and gives slight bonus vs. infantry w/o cavalry. In modern times refers to a helicopter contingent, which gives a bonus/ decreases penalty vs. all fast land units. Early version infantry only, modern version avail. w/ all land.
• Nomadic/Settler/Engineer- I think these should be Options to allow them to have combat STR. Nomads are as other have suggested: mobile cities of sorts with land STR. Settlers and engineers are separate, but this allows for them to have combat STR which is reasonable especially considering army engineer corps could fight if needed. Infantry/ mounted/Motorized only (unless sea/ space cities allowed).
• Immune to terrain is based off of the idea that some terrain causes damage to some units. This option would allow the unit to ignore the movement restrictions & resulting damage from the hostile terrain. Each type of terrain is individually chosen. All units may choose from these lists; units are assumed to have certain immunities built-in (air units are immune to mountains & swamps but not necessarily glaciers).
• No support- This is available to all chassis BUT the unit MUST have the 'brigade' option, or have been found as an NON-homed unit.
• Artillery- Has special abilities as described elsewhere (throw plague, poison bombs, tact nuke, plus attacks walls). Also uses its range as its bombard strength, and land STR vs. all other, non-artillery/bombard attacks.
• Camouflage- Again, all chassis may conceal, but only 'brigade' land units may conceal away from a hidden base. Hidden bases can conceal any unit, depending on type (hidden air bases conceal air, hidden naval bases conceal ships, etc.)
• Partisan- Inf/Mount/Motor 'brigade' only. Partisans have several modifiers: They cost no support, they may conceal, they are immune to terrain, and they can ign. ZOC's if undetected. However, the 'immune to terrain' only work in the owner's own territory & in territory previously owned. Therefore partisans can operate in the city squares of a city they used to own, but if they venture into true enemy territory they lose this bonus.
• Nuke- Since any chassis can really deploy a nuke, a unit Option makes it available to all. Also all nukes should be built (ex. Tactical nukes?) so no spy/ bomber missions to send in cheap nukes. Nukes are automatically single shot units.
• Single shot- All missiles & nukes are automatically single shot. Other units may be single shot weapons if the players decides to make them so (scenarios?).
• Nuke DEF- All units may carry nuke DEF option once the appropriate tech is researched. Aids game play as players likely to use nukes on targets other than cities. Maintenance of such DEF should be high, similar to SDI in cities, or not as effective.
• All units have basic scouting. This option increases the unit's recon ability (replaces see 2) by a percentage. See COMBAT for how I think scouting should work on strategic scale.
• May engage LASS: All units have certain domains that they may engage automatically. Land->land; Sea->sea; Air->land, sea; Space->space. When a unit buys points in a domain not of the it's own, this indicates the difficulty other units, from that domain, have damaging this unit. If the 'engage' option is chosen, the unit may now attack units operating in that domain. Units may also delete a free 'engage domain' option, useful for settlers/engineers/transports in reducing their costs.

[valmont]

Did anyone ever suggest having a Medic unit that could heal your damaged units outside of a city?