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Old July 19, 1999, 22:56   #1
SnowFire
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TECHNOLOGY(v2.1)- hosted by SnowFire
Continued from <a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000135.html">Technology 2.0</a>. Older threads may be found at <a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000100.html">Technology 1.6</a>,<a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000089.html">Technology 1.5</a>,<a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000079.html">Technology 1.4</a>, <a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000038.html">Technology 1.2</a>, and <a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000006.html">Technology 1.1</a>.

Welcome to the Technology 2.1 Thread. 2.0 died a peaceful death of old age, but with the summary now taking 4 pages, we had to move on, so to speak. He joins the graveyard with other old and honored threads such as 1.6 and 1.1 as well as stillborn infants such as 1.3. In any case, an immortality drug has been discovered for threads- multiple pages. Ideally this thread could go on forever in 50 page segments without ever interrupting bandwith. It will only die when list 2.0 dies.

In any case...

Here we try to formulate suggestions and improvements for the Technology and Science research part of CivIII. A summary of all the ideas is below. If a certain point really piques your interest, you might want to check the back threads to see the original debate on it.

The summary has been altered a good bit, since Brian wants "specific applications" of ideas. Unfortunately this has made it quite a bit bigger, though the "Actual Techs Suggested" section STILL needs fleshing out. So, there's a lot of new stuff- it's like Corn Flakes, it's the same as before at heart, but you should taste them again, for the first time. By the ancient technology "S Tih May Shun," the summary is 31.2% longer and (43+(e-2))% better, which is roughly 43.71828%, by the way. I've also redone the numbering system to be like it is on the HTML version of the list. Still, I may not have changed all the references to idea #x- if you catch any errors like that, or any spelling errors, be sure to post my mistake for all to see. After all, better you telling me than Brian, eh?

And as a reminder, I will not try to squash or destroy your idea; but I will try and summarize them fairly and impartially here in the summary and in the final letter to Brian.

Here's a quick overview of the summary-

<a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000135.html#SecI">Section I: The Research Process (How do I do research into technology?)</a>
<a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000135.html#SecII">Section II: The Tech Tree (How do I get specific techs?)</a>
<a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000135.html#SecIII">Section III: The Techs Themselves...</a>
<a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000135.html#SecIV">Section IV: Issues of Technology Cost.</a>
<a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000135.html#SecV">Section V: Science and its relationship with Infrastructure and Society.</a>
<a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000135.html#SecVI">Section VI: Game Options set at the Beginning of the Game.</a>
<a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000135.html#SecVII">Section VII:Things NOT to do.</a>
<a href="http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/HTML/000135.html#SecVIII">Section VIII: Actual Techs Suggested.</a>

Without further ado, the summary...

Section I: The Research Process (How do I do research into technology?)
<a name="SecI"></a>
1.1) MULTIPLE TOPIC RESEARCH -- Many of the following ideas require that you be able to research several ideas at once. There must be some advantage to researching things in parallel rather than serially, or else no one will do it.

Specific Application: See ideas 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 2.1, 2.6, and others.

1.2) TECHNOLOGICAL FIELDS -- Many of the following ideas require that the techs be placed into a small number of broad categories. Effort should probably be made to make the different fields roughly equal in terms of number and usefulness of techs (trying to put the old tech tree into these categories give Math&Physics a big advantage...). Note that CivII did this, but it was purely cosmetic. We want to have actual, different fields of research, perhaps researching one tech in each field using the MULTIPLE TOPIC RESEARCH idea.

SA: So far, the suggestions have been: Philosophy, Agriculture & Biology, Economics, Math & Physics, and Psychology/Theology. You would research 5 technologies at a time, one in each field. On the other hand, another system of 4-5 fields (or even 2 fields- "soft" science, philosophy, economics, & psychology, and "hard" science, math, physics, & biology) would surely work as well. Sp,e recommend against there being a "military" field; it would be too easy for someone to pour all their resources into it and unbalance the early game. See idea 1.4.

Another poster suggested Military, Economy/Applied, Social/Philosophical, Academic, and Biology/Farming. These would be tied to Social Engineering factors for their research rate; i.e., if you have +2 Military you research Military techs 20% faster. See idea 4.16.

1.3) DEVELOPMENT INERTIA -- It doesn't make sense that the same researchers who just gave you "Nuclear Fission" would be able to turn around and give you "Television, because they are only peripherally related. Scientists are specialized, and can't easily be pushed around to different fields. You should have multiple "teams", each of which is working on a different project. When they are done with one, they will research a second project in the same field at a faster rate than an unrelated field (or pay a higher cost to research an "outside our expertise" field -- the effect is the same). See 1.15 for a similar idea.

SA: You have 2 teams of researchers. One has just completed finishing a Math & Physics tech. If you tell it to research economics, it will take longer than another Math & Physics tech. This would be another way to simulate inertia and not wanting to change your priorities. The penalty would be less in early times (see idea 9), and perhaps you would receive another team of researchers in the modern age.

1.4) RESEARCH PRIORITY SLIDER BARS WITH 'INERTIA' -- There should be several fields of research (see item 2) and you can set different allocations for the different fields (e.g. 25% of research points to Philosophy, 25% to Ag, 50% to Econ.) representing the number of scientists in that field and the money/work poured into it. However, whenever you change the allocation, you take a hit to the "efficiency" at which you research the topic you changed(i.e. number of research points per turn decreases), which is proportional to the magnitude of the change. This "efficiency hit" gradually diminishes over time until your society reaches "scientific equilibrium" at the new settings. This effect is likely to result in a "character" for different civs, because some will emphasize one field over another depending on their AI, and be unlikely to change because of the cost.

SA: Since the University of Planet shifted to such a strong emphasis on math & physics, they get those techs very fast since 40%of the scientists work on it, but their psychology research is in bad shape due to lack of funding and scientists. It would take a long while to get their psych research back on their feet, even if they increased their percentage allotment.

1.5) TECHNOLOGICAL "FIELDS" CONTAINING MINOR TECHS- 15-20 general fields of science are created to look into, like "Medicine," Agriculture," "Industrialization," and "Metallurgy," each containing many, many minor techs. You can choose which field (or fields, under option 1) you want to research (And, under ideas 2 &4, perhaps you research 3 fields at once each in different categories with different amounts of work on each), and you get minor techs from that field until you switch. This allows a far, far greater amount of minor techs (in Medicine alone, you might have "Anatomy," "Germ Theory," "Antiseptics," "Circulation of Blood..." It also allows you to have some direction to your research, but have some element of randomness still exist (see OFFSHOOT TECHS idea for a similar idea).

SA: I tell my scientists to research Industrialization, Agriculture, and Medicine. I periodically receive notices that I've discovered "Spinning Jenny," "Mass Production," the "Labor Union," "Diesel Trains," etc. in Industrialization, until I decide to switch that topic (or get told there are no more minor techs left there to research) to, say, Physics, where I start discovering "Radioactivity," "Relativity," and so on. Not all of these minor techs would have immediate benefits.

1.6) "GATEWAY" TECHS- If you have an era system (Antiquity, Renaissance, Industrial, Modern?), there should be a "gateway" tech for each new era that allows it to truly flourish. If you haven't researched that tech, then all other techs of the same era cost double the amount (or some other penalty).

SA: I can research The Corporation before Railroads, but very expensive (if Railroads is the gateway tech to the Industrial era).

1.7) AI TECH TRADING INTELLIGENCE -- Make sure that the AIs only make tech trades that make sense. Why trade for "Mass Transit" if you don't have "Automobile"?

SA: Limit players from getting techs they lack the prerequisites for.

1.8) STARTING POSITION DEPENDENT CIV SPECIALTIES -- When a civ is placed on the map, give it a tech specialty. This solves the problem of saying "the Phoenicians should get a seafaring bonus because they had a maritime empire" by instead giving a civ that starts close to water a maritime bonus (and if that happened to be the Phoenicians, then you could play the Phoenicians like the existed historically, although hopefully they'd last longer ). A tech specialty would be a small bonus to research in related fields (or simply a higher beginning allocation to a certain field, if the RESEARCH PRIORITY SLIDER BARS WITH 'INERTIA' system is used). The bonus should disappear in modern times. (not necessary with SLIDER BAR system)

SA: The Babylonians start out with their technology slider bars higher for agriculture and philosophy, with no adjustment penalty of course. The English have a focus in Math & Physics as well as Economics. The Greeks have a large philosophy starting out point, maybe 35%. And so on.

Or, my civ's capital is a seaport, therefore all boats built by my civ cost 5 resources less for the early game. Or perhaps my civ started near two terrain squares with horses grazing. All horsemen and cavalry I make start one level of experience higher than normal. Etc.

Also, you give the user the option to decide which type of place to start in, so that he or she can determine character of civ if he wants. For instance, you can choose "Inland Plains," "Seacoast," "Island," etc.

1.9) HISTORICAL ERA SHOULD PLAY A ROLE -- Since in ancient times scholars studied a wide variety of fields (they were real Renaissance men) it makes sense to have tech specialization only play a role in more modern types of research (e.g. an ancient Greek philosopher might have contemplated both the role and practice of government as well as the laws of motion).

SA: Switching your slider bars incurs less of an efficiency penalty and a faster adaptation and equilibrium to the new settings in very early times.

1.10) FAMOUS SCIENTISTS - Scientific personalities, such as Einstein or Pasteur might provide some "flavor" to the scientific experience. Perhaps these are random events that give you one time bonuses?

SA: You get a message that "Pasteur has established a laboratory in Paris, science output doubles in Paris for next 12 turns in Paris" or "Edison sets up shop in Menlo Park, income and science increased by 20% for next 25 turns there," or even disasters like "Lysenko becomes research head of Agriculture & Biology, research only 20% effective throughout empire for next 25 turns." The names of the scientists could be randomized, or specific to each culture.

For that matter, this doesn't just have to be with scientists. The "Famous person" motif can be done with any group ("Florence Nightingale follows army, losses reduced 10% for duration of war").

And the number of turns doesn't have to be pre-set, either; rather, an optimum number of turns can be set, and a bell curve of randomized numbers falls around that number so you know that Pastuer will probably die/retire within 12 turns, but it might be 10, it might be 15, etc.

1.11) FAMOUS SCIENTISTS AS CHARACTERS - Some have suggested scientist "units" given as a bonus that can sit in a city and give extra research, but are prone to assassination or defection and only last so many turns. Some oppose this idea.

SA: Germany gets an Einstein unit, who increases technology output in Berlin until he leaves and defects to the USA when the government changes to Fascist, and he sits in a USA city of the US's choice and increases the science output there instead.

1.12) SERENDIPITOUS ADVANCES -- Technology discovered "accidentally". Basically a random event that gives you a tech advance.

SA: "Alexander Fleming uses poor lab technique, accidentally discovers penicillin." This would avert he goody-hut saving & reloading problem as well.

1.13) TECHS SHOULD BE HARDER TO RESEARCH -- It is unrealistic for a civ to have the ability to realistically research every tech in the game without help -- historically nobody has developed everything. Techs should have a higher cost relative to the number of research points that are expected to be produced by an empire than in previous games. Another poster says this feature takes away the option if isolationism. An alternative to this would be to dramatically ramp up the cost of the futuristic techs in the endgame, so you may only get 2 or 3 of them.

SA: With the future techs ridiculously expensive variant, your thoughts might be like this:

"Should I get eugenics or arcologies? Nanotechnology or Neurohacking? I can only research at most two before either the Unity launches or the Apocalypse happens (see idea XXX)"

1.14) BUDGET SCIENCE FROM TAX BUDGET- instead of the classic tax/science/luxuries system, count the science rate as taxes spent on science. Thus higher scientific spending has the same effect as high taxes- greater unhappiness, greater unemployment (if you're a Republican, at least).

SA: This is actually sort of in the current game engine, if you spend more on science, by definition you spend less on luxuries. But if the system is changed to a tax rate model where you set the tax rate through your empire, this could be important.

1.15) "PROBLEM BASED" TECHNOLOGY RESEARCH- you tell your science advisors what problems or needs your society has, like more food or better defense in battle, and they research something along those lines, perhaps getting you granaries or advanced irrigation or shields. Combined with redundant techs, this is another way different civs can have comparable units but wildly different technologies and philosophies (since the two civs found different ways of increasing defense in battle, say).

SA: Both the Federation and the Romulans are equally matched, but they have quite different styles and technology. Similarly, one civ might extensively use longbows, like the English, while the French would prefer primitive firearms.

This is rather similar to number 2, actually, and instead of choosing standard categories, you would choose "Find me a better weapon" or "Find me something to make my cities happier" as categories of research.

1.16) TRICKLE-DOWN LIST OF RESEARCH- You have a list of technologies, ordered based on as soon as a certain tech was made available to you. 10-60% of your research points goes to the first topic, 10-30% goes to your second topic, 5-20% goes to your third topic on the list, etc. The degree of specificity depends on things like how many libraries and universities you have. When you discover a tech, new techs you can now research go to the bottom of the queue and wait to be moved up. You can pay a certain efficiency cost to take techs closer to the bottom and move them farther up on the list.

SA: I just discovered Code of Laws, which makes Monarchy possible, but all the other level-2 and level-1 technologies that I could have researched before are above it. So I pay slight efficiency costs to move Monarchy higher up the list where it will get more research points.

1.17) ALL RESEARCH IS DONE BY SPECIALISTS- Farmers out in the field don't understand technology., to trade from roads shouldn't be used for research. If there is enough food being grown by them, then you should be able to stick people in the city to do nothing but sit around and research and eat the grown food. There would be several types of scientists as well (as time goes on), and they could only research in their fields. There would also be a "Soldier Specialist" discussed in other threads who's main purpose is to support units, but also increases the rate at which military techs are researched and decreases the rate peaceful techs are researched in that city.

Some strongly dissent at the idea of specialists in any case.

SA: Athens is a size 3 city now and I don't need it to get bigger, so I use my third unit of population to research things, like the specialist in CivII. When I hit the Renaissance, I have to diversify my philosophers, mathematicians, biologists, etc.

1.18) EDUCATION POINTS BASED SYSTEM- It was not uncommon in CivII to allocate 70% of your trade to research. Some say that science points should be scrapped all together, and "education points" should take their place. They would only occupy 10-30% of your trade allocation, and do a vastly different thing then standard research points. Your science research is determined independently of your size, education points, etc. It is only through buildings like libraries and universities that you can speed this rate. Education points determine how effective these buildings are. Furthermore, these are determined by a quasi-average, so large civs no longer dominate in research: small, perfectionist, well-funded city-states with lots of buildings and education points (think Ancient Greece) will research faster than large agrarian civs (like China).

SA: Maybe my base research rate is 100/turn, and it takes 1000 points to finish researching a technology. The percent of education divided by 10 is the multiplier. If you have only one city with just a library and a 10% education rate, then you get a mere 1 extra research per turn(1*1). Add a university and research lab and jack the education rate up to 30%, and you get (1+2+4)*3 =21. And if you have 8 cities like that, then you'd get 168 more research points, nothing to scoff at since you're gaining technologies more than twice as quickly now.

<a name="SecII"></a>
Section II: The Tech Tree (How do I get specific techs?)

2.0) LOTS OF TECHS -- Some people think we need lots, and I mean LOTS of techs. Others think that too many techs may be bad, because they would grow hard to differentiate. Another problem is that lots of techs would also mean lots of techs with no immediate help from them, aside from them being pre-requisites to other techs. Many of the tech suggestions below depend on this system.

SA: See Section VIII, the Tech List, for many of the proposed smaller technologies.

2.1) MULTIPLE PREREQS -- More than just two should be possible. This suggestion is probably implicit in some of the more ambitious prereq schemes.

SA: For the advance "Feudalism," have prerequisites of Monarchy, Aristocracy, and Horseback Riding; pick any 2 of the 3.

2.2) MULTIPLE PATHS TO A PARTICULAR ADVANCE -- Instead of having rigid prerequisites that demand that a civ follow a particular research path to get to a tech, allow several different ways to achieve a particular advance. There are several alternatives...

SA: See below ideas.

2.3) BOOLEAN PREREQS -- The prerequisites should be specified with Boolean logic, i.e. AND, OR, NOT.

SA: The prerequisite for "Labor Union" might be "Capitalism" and "Assembly Line", because the workers band together naturally to fight for rights, OR "Communism" and "Mass Media", because the communist activists are able to convince large numbers of workers to bargain collectively. However, "Capitalism" and "Mass Media" wouldn't do anything to advance "Labor Unions" without the other techs. -- Labor Union [= (Capitalism AND Assembly Line) OR (Communism AND Mass Media).

2.4) PREREQUISITE POINTS -- In this suggestion, different technologies each contribute a certain point value to satisfying the prerequisite of a follow-on technology. Others oppose the system because it seems too complex.

SA: If you were interested in researching "Trench Warfare", you might need to gather 10 prereq points, where "Machine Guns" would give you 4, "Artillery" would give you 7, "Chemical Warfare" would give you 3, and "Conscription" would give you 3. Supporters of this concept argue that many of the other suggestions in this list can be incorporated into this new scheme (for example, DIPLOMATIC SYNNERGY can be implemented by giving you a prereq point for having diplomatic relations with a civ that already has the tech in question) and that it will allow multiple different strategies, making the new complexity worthwhile.

2.5) PREREQUISITE EQUIVALENCE -- instead of having a hard and fast prerequisite, allow some of them to be 'equivalence classed'.

SA: If you wanted to develop "Technocracy", you need the advance on "Microchip", as well as knowledge of three government types, such as "Democracy", "Fascism", and "Monarchy".

2.6) REDUNDANT TECHS -- have multiple different ways to achieve the same in-game effect with different technological paths. This allows different civilizations to take a less "cookie-cutter" approach to technological development, since there are no longer an "vital" technologies. (Maybe this and MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE TECHNOLOGY are redundant, or at least related?)

SA: There are multiple ways to get a 2-1-1 unit or a "makes one unhappy person content" building. For example, either "Religious Fanaticism" or "Professional Standing Army" techs might allow the 2-1-1 unit over the 1-1-1 unit. Under idea 15, you wouldn't get to choose. That way there won't be 6-8 identical Mediterranean style civilizations.

2.7) MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE TECHNOLOGY -- Developing one technology might not make sense when another one already existed. Some posters seriously object to this idea.

SA: Once you've found one way of finding a particular use, your citizens refuse to "re-invent the wheel" and find another way. Examples would be "Green Industries" and "Advanced Toxic Waste Disposal."

2.8) RANDOM TECH TREE! - As long as there are multiple paths to each tech, there can be a probability that each path may or may not exist in a particular game. This adds to the excitement, and also the realism, since you can never quite be sure what your scientists will come up with until they come up with it. This is probably more easily accomplished if the REDUNDANT TECHS idea is implemented, since there is less likelihood of a civ being stranded without easy access to an important feature.

SA: You never know the "critical path" or fastest route to a powerful offense, say; for a desert civ you may end up with camel-riders by a path totally different from the way the Assyrians go their chariots.

This is perhaps an adjustable option.

2.9) OFFSHOOT TECHS -- Minor technologies related to Major Technologies (i.e. Major techs are the ones we are familiar with) that are received as a random bonus for researching the Major Tech. They're not available every game, and only give a small bonus. See idea 33, "Further Research on one Tech," for a different idea on how to implement this.

SA: Researching "Warrior Code" might give you "Longbow" technology, which would give you better archers. Hypothetically these "minor techs" could be linked to specific civs to give them "character".

2.10) FORBID 'OUT-OF-ORDER' TECH -- If you don't have the prereqs for a tech, you shouldn't be able to use it, even if you trade for it, etc.

SA: If (through some quirk of fate) Columbus has plans for an A-Bomb, and traded them to the Native Americans he met, it is unlikely that they would have been able to nuke Europe, since they didn't have the infrastructure to make use of the idea. Until at least one prerequisite is gained, the technology is useless to them. A suggested enhancement to this suggestion -- link things to a literacy level, or possibly "era" (e.g. bronze-age tribe can't use Renaissance idea).

2.11) CONCEPTS vs. APPLICATIONS -- Instead of an "all techs are equivalent" way of looking at the world, break techs into "concepts" and "applications".

SA: A "concept" might be "Gunpowder", while an "application" might be "Musket" or "Tunnel Construction". The application techs would all have a concept tech as a prerequisite, and the concept techs only have other concepts as their prereqs. This way, a civ can be very advanced in general principles, or concentrate on developing known techniques. Some have suggested simply allowing the application to research; others, being able to use the new application after paying a fee to develop it (similar to the prototype increase in cost in SMAC); still more, that you have a slider bar that goes between "new ideas" and "improvement of old ideas."

2.12) RANDOMIZED APPLICATIONS -- Techs shouldn't always give you the same benefit. This could be linked to different civilizations.

SA: The British and Chinese might only get "Fireworks" from musketeers one game, and the Lydians might only be able to research currency and not phalanxes from bronze working.

2.13) FURTHER RESEARCH ON ONE TECH / PHASED RESEARCH -- There should be more differentiation between "identical" techs. All of the major powers had "tanks" in World War II, but the designs of some countries were superior to those of others. You should be able to continue researching into already discovered techs to gain a better mastery of them. It has been suggested that a technology be "phased:" Have rudimentary, standard, and advanced levels. These would not perhaps apply to all techs. While possession of the rudimentary level of a tech takes the most time and allows you to research onward to other technologies, any military units produced by this tech should be very weak, and city improvements face penalties in cost and/or effectiveness. A Wonder of the World would require the advanced knowledge of a tech.

SA: If you could devote some research points to further "experimentation" with the technology "tank warfare" or "bows" after you've already received the advance, you might end up with bonuses to your tanks or archers. On the other hand, if you simply concentrate on the next thing, you may get musketeers or missiles faster, but in the mean time, your lower-quality archers/tanks may get slaughtered. In fact, the older, more improved model should be superior to just made technologies. (i.e. British longbowmen could rout arquebusiers).- new muskets should be almost useless until at least a little bit of research is done, after which they will rout older units.

This also coincides with the "Make Tech harder to Research Idea" because if you know you almost surely won't max out on tech during the game, there's more of an incentive to improve on older models.

Also, these should always be either bonuses or auto-upgrades, you shouldn't have to actually build a new unit when you research the next level of the technology.

2.14) MAKE TECH TREE REFLECT GAME SITUATION -- the current game situation should affect the tech tree.

SA: A land-locked civ is unlikely to develop "Navigation", and a civ with tons of mineral resources is unlikely to develop "Advanced Mining" or "Conservation." Therefore, they take penalties when they try to research it (case in point: convincing other Americans that the resources of the land are NOT unlimited).

2.15) SUPPORTING TECHS FOR OTHER IDEAS IN OTHER THREADS -- Some ideas in other threads give new abilities (such as specific types of specialist citizens) so it makes sense to have techs that bestow these abilities.

2.16) TECHNOLOGY GAIN BY USAGE- Thing you do on the map affect how your technology goes.

SA: If there are copper deposits near a city and they are worked for 10 turns, you get "Copper Working" (or perhaps a 10% bonus on the price of researching that per turn reached, to a maximum of a 50% discount?), and if you work a tin deposit for 10 turns after that, you get "Bronze Working." Similarly, working a terrain square with horses might be the only way to discover Horseback Riding (how else will your people know about them?).

If this idea is used, something similar to the MULTIPLE PREREQUISITES idea (2.1) should be used along with it, to insure that civs lacking the proper resources don't totally die, merely are forced to develop along a different path.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited October 26, 1999).]</font>
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Old July 19, 1999, 22:58   #2
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2.17) TECHNOLOGY HORIZON- If idea 28 (RANDOM TECH TREE) is used, you should only be able to see "so far" down the tech tree to a horizon, as your wise men/scientists can only guess so much about future technologies (imagine how easy getting bananas will be with a human brain, says the ape.). This means you don't have to worry about an optimal path to certain crucial techs.

SA: Your science advisor's rendering of the tech tree fades off into nothingness after advances that haven't been researched yet- in other words, you can see anything you can research at the moment, but after that? Who knows.

2.18) NECCESITY IS THE MOTHER OF INVENTION- In Europe, countries were diverse and anything they could use to get ahead was applied, triggering fast growth in many technologies. The Chinese, on the other hand, while they developed many technologies they never had to apply them to things like weapons use because they did not need to.

SA: If the major/minor civ idea is not used, this could perhaps be used as a balancer against nations that quickly destroy everyone but themselves in their region of the world, like the Chinese- stagnation. The costs of applying new technologies would soar, since people have no interest in doing that.

2.19) ENABLING TRIGGERS- You get a technology/bonuses on a technology when society reaches the point it demands/needs it. No discovering Caravels if you have no overseas colonies/friends/trade, for instance- your scientists don't have enough practical experience and say "Why should we care about a useless tech like that?" Some oppose this idea because it would be most difficult for the AI to figure out the optimum technologies and ways to get the "enablers" as well as an experienced human could.

SA: Just as how you might get the Magellan's Expedition wonder by sailing around the world (in a similar proposal in the WONDERS thread), you might get the tech "Organization" when you have 5 military units, or "University" when 40% of your population has access to libraries.

<a name="SecIII"></a>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited August 25, 1999).]</font>

Section III: The Techs Themselves...

Currently existing advances are in quotes.

3.0) TECH ADVANCES TIED TO GAME FEATURES -- Features such as 'borders' should only be enables once the appropriate tech is discovered. See point 35 for an example.

3.1) RESOURCE LIMITATION LIFTING TECHS -- In SMAC there were some techs that you needed to research before you could gather more than 2 resources of each type. While an interesting idea, the implementation in SMAC was too limiting. The techs which lifted the limits were too indispensable, and came in too late, often choking off an empire until they could be found. Perhaps there should be a more gentle gradation over the ages? And should Social Engineering continue to play a role?

SA: I just discovered "Crop Rotation." My farmlands lose their fertility slower now, assuming the idea of replenishment is included in Civ. Or, I have discovered Explosives, and all my mines produce one extra resource and have a limit of 4 resource/square now.

3.2) MORE TECHS SHOULD HAVE SOME 'BASIC' BENEFIT - More techs should give bonuses aside from simply building units.

SA- The "Stirrup" idea you mentioned is an example of this. There would be more (minor?) techs like "Movable Type: Increases ALL science research 10%." We really liked the old techs in CivII like Mysticism doubling the effect of temples and Nuclear Power increasing the movement of ships.

Similar to this, instead of being forced to always build new units (though this certainly should be done with major period shifts, like pikemen->musketeers and riflemen->tanks), there should be more auto-upgrades. Instead of rebuilding all your bowmen, they should simply get significant range bonuses when you discover the longbow, or damage bonuses when you discover the crossbow (since you fire faster).

Another example might be "I research "Modern Warfare" which eats up some time now and leads to no other techs, but now I research Conscription, Mobile Warfare, Tactics, etc. 10% faster."

Another good Basic Benefit would be a SE increase. For instance, the Automobile should do many things, among them increase happiness, increase the economy, start having suburbs moving away from the town prime, allow highways, and increase pollution dramatically (already in Civ, actually).

See Section VIII for more examples of this.

3.3) AN OPTION FOR A LESS 'MECHANISTIC' WORLDVIEW -- Some people feel that Civ emphasis science and technology, not allowing for the possibility of a civilization that has a less mechanistic worldview, and focuses instead on other pursuits, like philosophy or psychology. Is this workable? Suggestions? Could this have happened, even if it didn't historically? Would there be a way to spare CivIII from humiliation for this change at the hands of the magazine reviewers?

3.4) MORE EMPHASIS ON FOOD MAKING TECHS -- Plants cultivation, Farming, Irrigation, Genetic manipulation... see 41 for what purpose they might serve.

SA: These would be very incremental changes, as to not upset the delicate balance of growth. Also, they wouldn't always require upgrades.. most would be automatic throughout your empire, and might be something as minor as a an extra 2% food, rounded up. Of course, with enough advances like that each adding 2%, it adds up quickly.

3.5) GREATER EMPHASIS ON THE ARTS -- The tech tree in general focuses on military hardware and hard science, leaving the Arts somewhat unaddressed (this suggestion probably needs to be fleshed out more). More than a few posters question whether this is a good suggestion. See idea 43.

3.6) MAKE ARTS ADVANCES 'SCORE BOOSTERS' -- Maybe Art and Culture advances should simply be score boosters (like "Future Tech") or one time benefits.

3.7) TECHNOLOGY SHOULD INCREASE THE EFFECTIVENESS OF ENTERTAINERS -- Certain technologies should enhance the effectiveness of your "entertainer" specialists in the city screen, and allow (as in SMAC) more types of specialists, perhaps with positive and negative abilities.

SA: Television increases the effect of entertainers 25%. Minstrels are 50% more effective than standard entertainers in the Middle Ages, but take 1 gold per turn as well from taxes.

3.8) USE VOICE-OVERS FROM SMAC FOR TECHNOLOGY WHEN DISCOVERED- And have good voice actors read them as well. Make sure to check the forums with the quotes though, the infamous and horribly incorrect quote about "behind electrons, quarks" by Zakharov was caught long before the game was released on the SMAC forums, but apparently no one at Firaxis read them.

SA: Socrates for Philosophy, Sun Tzu for Tactics, St. Augustine for Theology, King Solomon for Monarchy, Hammurabi for Code of Laws, Ptolemy for Astronomy, Gustavus Adolphus for Gunpowder, Newton for Gravity, Marconi for Radio, Watt for the Steam Engine, Carnegie for Steel, Oppenheimer for Atomic Theory, Jefferson for Democracy, Marx for Communism, Patton for Mobile Warfare, Homer's Odyssey for Seafaring, Pythagoras for mathematics, Euclid for Geometry, Sir Thomas Malory for Chivalry, the Wright Brothers for Flight, Lavosier for Chemistry, Keynes for Economics, Von Braun for Rocketry, "thou shalt have no other gods before me" for Monotheism, Lorenzo de' Medici for Banking, Henry Ford for automobile, Sophocle's Antigone for Ceremonial Burial, Da Vinci for Invention, some scoffer saying that your blood will boil if you go faster than 20mph for Railroads, Napoleon for Conscription, Adam Smith for Economics, Alfred Nobel for Explosives, the guy who said life in the Middle Ages was "Nasty, brutish, and short" for feudalism, Pope Urban II for fundamentalism, Churchill's "We will fight them in the streets, the hills, the stairways, etc." for Guerrilla warfare, Newton (again!) for Physics (and/or Calclus, Optics, etc.), Pericles for the Republic, JFK for Space Flight, Sun Tzu again for Stealth, an Arab merchant for Trade, Croseos for Currency, Aristotle for University, Dr. Mengele on Eugenics, HAL for artificial intelligence, something about the Mormons and Utah for terraforming, and Dr. Zakharov for fusion drive. Whew! If you ever need help actually getting quotes for your collection (and you're going to need a lot more quotes if the minor techs/lots of techs idea is used), you know where to post.

<a name="SecIV"></a>
Section IV: Issues of Technology Cost.

4.0) HAVE THE NUMBER OF TECH POINTS REQUIRED FOR A TECH BE FIXED INSTEAD OF RELATIVE -- Pottery should not be just as hard to research as Nuclear Fission, even if you are actively researching them both in 1945. Furthermore, research shouldn't be mysteriously set-back when you discover a new tech in a goodie hut. Basing the number of research points needed for a particular tech on the number of techs you already possess can lead to ridiculous situations like that, like in CivX.

SA: If using the SMAC chart, make all techs labeled as level one cost 50 Research Points, level 3's cost 400 RP's, level 5 techs cost 1500, etc.

4.1) DIFFERENT COST FOR 'TRAILBLAZERS' AND 'FOLLOWERS' -- Civs who research a tech already discovered should get a bonus on the cost of researching it, since pioneering new technology is hard, while reproducing an already known advance is easier. The extent of the bonus might be based on civs you have diplomatic contact with, and the extent of that conflict.

SA: See idea 4.4.

4.2) LESS DETERMINISTIC RESEARCH PROGRESS -- Instead of just "100 Research Points gets you an advance" it should be "There is a number close to 100 Research Points that will give you the technology, here's our rough estimates for when we hit it". This way you can have a rough idea of when you will discover a new technology, but you can never be exactly sure because there is an element of uncertainty, just like science in the real world.

SA: A random number generator working on a Bell Curve with the center at the optimum finished time picks a spot.

4.3) TECH SYNERGY - you can research multiple techs simultaneously, and researching related techs provides synergistic effects.

SA: Researching "Physics" and "Calculus" together would get you done faster than researching "Physics" and "Communism", since the results of one field are applicable to the other.

4.4) RESEARCH SYNERGY THROUGH DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS -- We should get bonuses to our technology development rate if we are on friendly diplomatic terms with other civs researching similar technology because of international science conferences, wider circulation technical journals, access to each other's research, etc.

SA: The algorithm for the bonus, in percentage points, on a particular technology might be something like{comments in braces}-
New_Bonus = ((level of diplomatic relations {0=war/cease-fire, .5=neutrality, 1=peace, 3=alliance} * C {a number slightly less than 1 that controls the rate of leakage: this number is hackable in rules.txt}) * (25/(25+Old_Bonus)){This is to give you more of a bonus at first, and less over time, curving your stealing progress) + Old_Bonus)

Of course, Minor Nations would steal tech a lot faster, since their own research is handicapped.

4.5) TECH BLEED -- Scientific Advances should be able to "leak out" from high-tech civs to low-tech civs, giving the civ that lacks the technologies the high-tech civ has bonuses on researching it. The rate of leakage should be proportional to the age of the tech (If we drove up to a stone-age tribe they would probably realize the significance of our advanced "wheel" technology before we even got out of the car...) and also proportional to the level of diplomatic relations (if we constantly interact with another society, we are likely to be more familiar with their technology). This is quite similar to point 1.6 and 4.4.

SA: See 4.4.

4.6) MINOR NATION TECH BLEED- If the Major/Minor civilization concept is used, then perhaps there would be a special set of tech bleed rules for Minor civs to keep isolated Minor Nations from advancing far beyond the Stone Age (like the Native Americans) with no tech bleed and to keep Minor Nations in areas surrounded by tough, Major civ enemies have high rates of tech bleed (like Belgium).

4.7) REVERSE ENGINEERING -- Fighting and destroying or capturing enemy units with superior technology should aid in the discovery of that technology with bonuses on the tech cost.

SA: When a higher-technology unit is destroyed, a random number from 0-30 percentage points of bonus should be given, in relation to how much you've already discovered/already have bonuses on (if I've done no research at all, I really do get an amount from 0-30. If I've done 50% research, I only get a 0-30% bonus on what's left, so in effect, I really only have a 0-15 point bonus).

Capturing a unit (see the Combat thread), or having parts of an enemy unit defect, or bribing a town/army and getting to look at their techs, gives you a 20-50 point bonus on the technology used you don't have.

Furthermore, bringing a captured unit back to a hometown and disbanding it gets you another slight bonus, since your engineers can take it apart and look at all the neat gizmos.

4.8) BASIC THEORETICAL RESEARCH -- Have some research points devoted to "basic research" that isn't likely to produce any specific advances (i.e. won't give you a specific building or unit or something), but which enhance research in other areas. Other posters simply suggest making some techs have effects like "All other physics research is speeded 5%" for the discovery of Atomic Theory, for instance, and that this idea may be too micromanagment-heavy.

SA: Putting 2% of your research into "Basic Physics" might enhance the speed at which you research "Lasers", "Nuclear Fission", and "Nuclear Fusion", but you could achieve those advances without doing the basic research, just at a higher cost. This would be a tradeoff -- Do I want Fission now, or do I want to invest a little more up front, and be sure of getting all three sooner in the long run, even though I wouldn't get any specific advance until later

4.9) MAXIMUM RESEARCH RATE -- Have a maximum rate at which research can be accumulated. No amount of "prodding" will enable your scientists to research faster than some basic human limit (probably limited by communication in the real world).

SA: This could also be handled by the "efficiency" theory of tech of number 4 being applied to changes in the tax/science rate over the empire, giving efficiency penalties for straying from the accepted that would slowly decay as your society finds a new equilibrium. Of course, try and go back and raise taxes, and you may find a lot of people, used to a smaller burden, not paying up- hence the efficiency penalty while your society re-adjusts, unlike SMAC's where a society never adjusted to new settings.

4.10) LESS DIRECTION SPEEDS RESEARCH- Scientists work better when not forced to work on one specific thing. Thus, letting techs be selected blindly that you don't have to speeds research slightly.

SA: Let the scientists choose and research with a 10% bonus, or I choose.

4.11) SPIES THEFT NOT ABSOLUTE- Technology theft in CivX and SMAC has been absolute- either you got it in fell swoop, or you didn't. There should be varying degrees of success.

SA: Instead, make it that your spies steal varying degrees of bonuses; in other words, a good mission might get you 90% of the plans, and all that's left is for your scientists to figure out how to implement it; or, on a failed mission, maybe you only get a 10% bonus. Of course, if you've already researched half the RP's for a tech and you steal 60% worth of the tech from an enemy, then you can get the tech straight off.

4.12) "RELATED" FIELDS OF RESEARCH BLEED- In a system where there are several categories of research (See Idea 1.2), each field should have a relation with the other fields of "closely related," "slightly related," or "no relation" to each other field. Then, each related field should get a small percentage of extra tech points from its related fields as "bleed." The idea is to simulate your scientists talking to each other and saying "Hey Bob! Jack here has a flying machine that he's going to bomb the Commies with! I'll bet we can make a crop duster out of it when he's done!" This is not to be confused with Tech Bleed, which is between civilizations; this is bleed between categories of the researchers of one civilization.

SA: I have 5 different categories of research with 5 different research projects of varying size. If I'm devoting 30% of my research to one project in Philosophy and 20% in Psychology, the bleed might give me the equivalent of 34% in Philosophy and 26% in Psych. On the other hand, my 30% in Philosophy (actually the equivalent of 34% already, but we'll ignore that) and my 30% in Math & Physics don't help each other at all, if those fields have "no relation (not entirely true, but…)." Neither gets an extra bonus.

Furthermore, to simulate the "Renaissance man" idea, the amount of bleed should be complete in the Ancient and Renaissance, and face penalties in the industrial and modern eras as specialization would become more common. Perhaps a standard 100% of research bleed in Antiquity & Renaissance, 75% in Industrial, and 50% in Modern? So using the previous example, it would only be the equivalent of 32% in Philosophy and 23% in Psychology, in the Modern Era.

Of course these algorithms I gave (+20% of points of other field) aren't necessarily the best, and the optimum would have to be found by play testing.

This is also a good way to counterbalance the dominance of Math & Physics, by making M&P never be "closely related" to any other field and "no relation" to almost all other fields.

4.13) MAKE TRADE MORE IMPORTANT IN RESEARCH- Historically, foreign trade was the major factor in spreading technology. This needs to be reflected even stronger in Civ3 in order to make a builder's game more feasible.

SA: Every "trade arrow" from commerce (not city generated trade) counts for 2 research, 2 coins, or 2 luxuries instead of 1.

4.14) HAVE DIFFERENT DIFFUSION FACTORS FOR TECHS- Some technologies are easier to steal then others.

SA: If it has to be formally taught, bought, or stolen, then you should get something like a 25% penalty when trying to steal the tech and a 25% slower rate of bleed for the tech. Examples would be Philosophy, Composite Bows, and Nuclear Fission. If it can be developed after a lot of work once you have the idea and the enabling techs, then there would be no penalty or bonus. Examples here would include the Catapult, Phalanx, Legion, Aircraft, and battlefield rockets. Finally, there are techs that can be developed as soon as you know it exists or see it. You might get a 25% bonus in trying to steal these techs and they would bleed faster as well. Examples of this might be wheel, stirrup, lance, or the lateen sail.

4.15) BARBARIANS SPREAD RESEARCH- The game should keep track of barbarian's wanderings. Should you choose to talk to them, they might be able to "Sell you knowledge of far-off countries" that could allow you to research a tech and get a bonus on researching it. Once again, much of ancient technology was developed by accident, it was more the question of who heard about it and who was willing to listen. This way far off, isolated civilizations aren't sentenced to death (like what happened in real life to the Aborigines, Incas, etc.)

SA: Barbarians who aren't bloodthirsty come up close enough to your city to talk and trade, and one of things you can trade for is far away technology, allowing you to "buy" technology even if you have no neighbors. If the increased emphasis on trade is put into the game, then barbarians like this would be quite necessary to keep some civs in the game.

4.16) TIE CATEGORIES OF TECH COST TO SOCIAL ENGINEERING SETTINGS- All techs in a category should get bonuses or penalties to their cost based on your current social engineering settings.

SA- In the Military-Economic-Social-Academic-Biology system, a +1 SE score in Military would give you a 10% bonus to techs in that category, a +2 rating a 20% bonus, a -2 rating a -20% penalty, et cetera. The same would occur for the other categories, except Economic would be tied to the Economy SE, Social to the Happiness SE, Academic to the Research SE (more than it usually would), and Biology to the Environmentalism SE. Plus, the use effect would kick in as well. Europe had the best military technology because its small countries were always fighting each other- China unified fairly quickly and only had occasional wars followed by long periods of peace, so their military tech stagnated.

<a name="SecV"></a>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited October 26, 1999).]</font>
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Section V: Science and it's relationship with Infrastructure and Society.

5.0) DIFFERENTIATED "SCIENCE BUILDINGS" - Have buildings which enhance the scientific output of a city differentiated, especially in modern times, since the generic "library" no longer suffices.

SA: You have your choice of a Physics Lab, a Biological Research Hospital, etc., which only add their bonus to the appropriate kind of research. See idea 1.2.

5.1) DIFFERENTIATED 'SCIENCE BUILDINGS' ALTERNATIVE- This is a variant on idea 5.0,

SA: If the system described in 1.2 is used, when a new library is built, it can be dedicated to one of the five (or 4, or as many as you have) categories of science. When a university is built, one more discipline can be added (it doesn't matter whether the discipline is added through the library or the university: they both appear at the top of a city's screen). These disciplines get bonuses in research done at the city, in addition to the library and university's normal effect. Then, a further bonus in research provided by other buildings only occurs if it has a library/university dedicated to that discipline.

For instance, a Nuclear Plant would have in addition to its Normal Effect an "Adds +50% to Math & Physics research, if the city has M&P as one of its specialties at the library or university." The same with, say, a Research Hospital, except with Biology. And a Stock Exchange, to Economics. This would eliminate the need for a one-size fits all Research Lab.

One exception would be your capital which can be dedicated to three disciplines, since the Capitol automatically gives +100% to Philosophy in that city and you can dedicate your library and university to something else.

5.2) DIFFERENT BUILDINGS HELP WITH DIFFERENT KINDS OF RESEARCH - Just as the Biology Lab in SMAC gave a flat 2 points of research each turn, we'd like to see more of that in CivIII. However, they should go to specific fields of research.

SA: Barracks can conduct military research, temples can conduct religious/psychological research, biology labs conduct, er, biology research, and it's all independent of the normal science.

5.3) HAVE GOVERNMENT/DIPLOMATIC CHOICES AFFECT TECH DEVELOPMENT -- Would a Fundamentalist government like to research "Genetic Engineering"?

SA: Link penalties on the costs of certain techs to social engineering, due to opposition from scientists. This would be clearly enumerated in the tech (i.e. "Fascist Governments get a 10% bonus when researching Chemical Weapons")

5.4) TECH PRESERVATION -- If a civ doesn't work to maintain a technology (e.g. by building libraries) they should lose the tech. This can simulate the Dark Ages. On the other hand, you can force players to allocate a certain amount of labs per turn to their population to keep everybody literate- if you don't, then your research costs increase. This is a way around the "Basic Technology Research" idea by providing another way of doing that, as well as deterring the "lots of cities" approach since bigger cities tend to produce more science per person (and would be dragged down less by a flat 3 science per person is used as teaching payment, on the 10x system where 1 CivII research point is now 10), thus being more efficient and getting more science.

SA: Perhaps this can be a randomized global event (Dark Ages descend upon world!), similar to the "Loss of technology research at base x! Build a network node to prevent this!" in SMAC, except, say, every 10% of your population without a library loses you one tech.

A Dark Ages event would also increase the hostility of minor nations toward great ones (like the Parthians and the Germans against the Romans), as well as increase the number of barbarians roaming the map.

As for the second idea, simply deduct something like 3 labs per person under a simple research interface. That way "Hickville" with population 3 producing 20 science and 10 coins will actually only produce 11 science, and "New York City" with population 12 producing 400 science (from libraries, universities, trade) will produce "only" 364 science. The comparison is between 55% efficiency and 91% efficiency. If "Advanced Research" is on (idea 6.0), then perhaps you can choose the literacy of your population by how many labs you devote to education. Early in the game, it's not economical to devote more than 2 labs to each citizen, and 1 labs is actually even better. But every time you increase "literacy" by increasing the amount of labs allocated to population, your tech cost goes down. So by Renaissance times you'll want 2 or 3 labs, and in the modern age 3 labs is a must. In highly technocratic societies in the near future, it may actually pay to increase this to 4 labs to get faster technology research.

5.5) LOCATION DEPENDENT RESEARCH LABS -- Research is done in labs and universities, and if lost, the information shouldn't magically stay within the empire. Some posters question this idea.

SA: If you lose an important science city, you shouldn't just not get it's future research, you should be penalized research points, especially if your communications technologies aren't high enough to spread the knowledge done there.

5.6) FACTION/CIVILIZATION SPECIFIC TECH TREES -- different cultures look at the world in different ways, so it wouldn't be surprising to see that they would follow different paths or discover different technologies in different orders. (concerns over accusations of unfairness and "racism" abound, not to mention game balancing...)

SA: The OFFSHOOT TECHS idea suggests that the off-shoots be related to the civ. On the other hand, with the Phased Technology idea (2.13), a sea-going faction might be restricted to only the rudimentary skill level in horsemanship, while an agriculture based civ might get the "standard" level of expertise in an agricultural tech immediately after finishing research, without the in-between rudimentary level.

5.7) FUTURE TECHS ALLOW MINITURIZATION- Future techs currently don't do much. Instead, especially if the categories of research idea is used, have future techs count for a decrease in the cost of all improvements and related items in that category.

SA: Now that I have Futuristic Math & Physics 1, my stealth fighters cost 10% less.

If the futuristic techs listed below are used, your scientists would still be plenty busy even in 2060, around when the game ends.

5.8) TECHNOLOGY VICTORY CONDITIONS- This probably shouldn't be in this summary, but there are several ideas on this. One of the classic victory conditions has been technology based- research to a certain level, and then build something. The general expectation has been that you, along with other civilizations willing to participate, build the UNS Unity, the logical predecessor to SMAC. First among proposals is that it cost much, much more than the Ascent to Transcendence in SMAC- it's a cooperative project, so that shouldn't be too much of a problem. 3,000 resources on Chieftain up to 6,000 on King by increments of 1,000 sounds good, and then up to 10,000 on Deity in increments of 2,000 per level. Secondly, there should be more sense of drama and real danger of not winning in the final sequence. To accomplish this, the turmoil that engulfed Earth before the Unity launched should be put in- around the time that the technology to build the Unity is near, revolts and riots start happening more often, as do crazy terrorists burning down your buildings. Conquered nationalities should press even harder for independence, with constant revolts against their conquerors. As the Unity actually starts being built, things should get even worse, with paramilitary organizations like the Spartans and the Christian States of America springing up in revolting cities and leading them against you and the other remaining civs. More Minor Nations should go on terroristic and conquering streaks as well. The idea is for all the remaining major civs to band together against the chaos and finish the Unity before they perish. If you wait too long, eventually nuclear missiles (or even worse, nanotechnology) starts getting stolen from you and the rebels start launching nukes left and right. Once this happens, and enough nukes have been launched to have a nuclear winter, you still do not lose. You simply get to keep playing on the nuclear wasteland that is Earth. All of your Modern Age and some of your Industrial Age technology is lost, though it can be researched again at a much reduced cost since there are still books and stuff on the topic. By that point, the rebels stop attacking you, and you and your remaining 2 cities can rebuild and try and retake your old cities that long ago revolted against you, and bring civilization back to the point where you can try and build the Unity again (and go through another end-game rebels sequence).
Another idea along this line is that if you don't want to get the co-operative UNS Unity win, you can win solo by transcending on Earth, except instead of becoming part of Chiron's fungus, your civilization uploads itself into computers.

5.9) MAKE ARTS TECHNOLOGY WORTH "CULTURE" POINTS- there's an idea in the Social Engineering thread on having each country have a culture value, that affects things like emigration. Arts technologies should be a main way of enhancing that value.

SA: I just researched "Radio," and all of those European immigrants are eager to come to America, the land of great high technology. This is represented by adding 2 to America's culture rating, and since it's already a free market democracy (Which give them +8) and has lots of older cultural techs (that gives them +10, but they all cancel out since everyone has them by now), now America has a rating of 10, which attracts lots of people from backward countries that are crumbling monarchies.

5.10) MAKE TECHNOLOGY HAVE TO "SPREAD"- When a technology is developed by your empire, it develops in a specific city, most likely one with lots of technology research. It then has to actually spread throughout your empire. Roads and a high education rate speed this, and once you develop a certain tech (railroads, radio, magnetism?), this no longer becomes a concern as it spreads instantly. Some feel this might be too complex; others would suggest a "technology overlay" to show which cities have the tech and which don't to simplify things.

SA: Paris can build these newfangled Musketeers, but way out in the colonies in New France, they can still only build pikemen. It will take time for them to have access to the infrastructure and learning to build musketeers out there as well.

<a name="SecVI"></a>

Section VI: Game Options set at the Beginning of the Game.

6.0) DIFFERENT TECH DIFFICULTY SETTINGS- There should be 2 or 3 difficulty levels of research systems, say "Novice Research," "Standard Research," and "Advanced Research." It's easier for beginners, and more realistic and challenging for veterans.

SA: Novice might be categoryless, SMAC-style research. Normal might have categories of research, but let you switch the settings almost at will so you can pour all your research into one category quickly if you wanted too. The "Technology Gain by Usage(2.13)" idea would have all the benefits, i.e. research done by working terrain tiles, but you could still research bronze working if you wanted to the old fashioned way. There would be "Offshoot (or Minor) Technologies (2.9)," as well. Advanced might have the inertia in to make it difficult to pour all your research into one pot, have the "Technology Gain by Usage" idea in full force (i.e. No bronze units until you work those copper and tin deposits), still have the "Offshoot Technologies," and allow you to do "Further Research on One Tech (2.16)."

6.1) BLIND TECH - People seem to either love or hate the blind research from SMAC.

SA: As in SMAC.

6.2) BLIND 'HISTORICAL' TECH- Research follows the Blind Tech model up until Industrialization, after which the player can use the Directed model, emulating the superior control and direction that people have over scientific discovery with modern methods.

6.3) BLIND 'HISTORICAL' TECH ALTERNATIVE -- Have a 'ratio' which controls how many techs you get to pick, and how many are blind.

SA: When you first start, perhaps every 4th tech is directed. Then after you receive a certain tech, you get to pick every 3rd tech. Then every other tech, etc., so you start with no control but eventually get complete control. The changes that increase your control should probably be controlled by appropriate scholarly advances, like The University and Literacy.

6.4) DOWNLOADING TECHS -- Some would like it if Firaxis periodically expands the tech tree by posted new techs on the website to incorporate into the game.

SA: This will probably only work with the OFFSHOOT TECHS idea. Then, a tech that previously had no offshoot/associated minor tech could be selected to receive one each week. There would be an option to turn off the extra techs.

6.5) DISABLING TECHS - There should be a changeable field or asterisk in rules.txt to disable a technology from existing.

SA: There's an extra comma at the end with a "Y" or "N" after that, and at the beginning every tech has a "Y" except vestigal techs shelved during game design.

6.6) SET TECH AREAS- Some would like to be able to, say, start a full-fledged game in the Industrial or Roman Age that is randomly generated and not a scenario. Furthermore, there would be tech ceilings beyond which you couldn't pass.

SA: This is probably hopeless to implement, but basically an automatic scenario generator? A problem would come when you hit the "ceiling," since that would bias the game away from science.

<a name="SecVII"></a>
Section VII: Things NOT to do.

The SA for all of these is "Don't do it in CivIII!"

7.0) HAVE OVERBROAD TECHS -- For example, "Industrialization" encompasses many things (technical, social, and economic), and should not be lumped into a single tech. This is assuming the current CivX system (under point 5's suggestion, it would be the exact opposite- you'd want broad techs with many facets).

7.1) SENSIBLE TECH/ADVANCE CORRELATION -- Certain advances were linked to techs that really didn't make sense, e.g. "Labor Union" and "Mechanized Infantry".

7.2) SCIENCE CITY IMPROVEMENTS MORE IMPORTANT FOR SCIENCE THAN ECONOMIC BUILDINGS -- Apparently in Call to Power, buildings which boost your economic output are more worthwhile for your research progress than Libraries and such. That's bad.

7.3) SPACING OF TECHS IN THE TREE -- Make sure that the techs are judiciously placed in the tree so we don't have too few in one era and too many in another. Try to keep it balanced (no jumps from Knights to Tanks, like in CivI).

7.4) AN UNHELPFUL SCIENCE ADVISOR- Traditionally, he's usually tossed a coin and told you to research that technology. A better advisor would be nice. The beta-testers can probably help you with that.

7.5) HAVE SILLY FUTURISTIC TECHS- CtP had some of the most ridiculous ideas of what the future was like around. SMAC was much better, but still had some silly bits. Whatever you do, no female cyborgs with swords conducting futuristic combat (Plasmatica) or "War Walkers." Instead, we'd like AI's, nanorobots, and neurohacking. See the tech list below.

7.6) REPEAT THE FUTURISTIC QUOTE OVER AND OVER AGAIN- Planet had a quite annoying voice, and we'd drunk more than our fill of her informing us where eternity lies after discovering some Future Techs.

7.7) HAVE NO VARIATION IN "TECH GAINED" MESSAGE- "Greek wise men discover Mysticism" makes no sense. More appropriate words should be used for each advance, such as "develop," "invent," and even "discover," and there should be more variation between "wise man" and "scientist," depending on the field that something is in.

SA: "Indian priests develop Mysticism!
"English scientists harness Electricity!" (Yes, Ben Franklin was an Englishman at the time)
"Greek Philosophers espouse The Republic!"
"Persian merchants develop Currency!"
"American scientists discover Atomic Theory!"
"English engineers invent the Railroad!"
<a name="SecVIII"></a>

Section VIII: Actual Techs Suggested

Many of these techs are narrow enough that they would only be palatable as "minor techs" as described in the system in point 5. Also note that I mention some CivX, but not mentioning one doesn't mean it shouldn't go in- they're just offered as extras, to put the rest in context. These are supposed to be mainly the new ideas. In any case, grouped by rough categories (which might be the "fields" described under point 5):

Arts Techs so far:
Music - A dead end tech that adds +50% to the effectiveness of entertainers. So an entertainer gains an early boost of +100% with the discover of music and construction of a market place. Since music has been around since the beginning of civilization, many dispute the need to actually research it. This suggestion has been criticized strongly by many, since music has existed since the Stone Age.

History

Literature

Rhetoric

Sculpture

Psychology

Mathematics Techs:
Algebra- The lowest level math discovered.

Trigonometry

Calculus- Vital for physics research.

And computers, a subcategory of Math:
Programming -- the art/science of making computers do what you want.

Systems Analysis -- (what exactly would this do that can be modeled on a civ-wide scale?)

Computing Machine -- A mechanical or electrical device that demonstrates that arithmetic and logical tasks can be done by machines. Examples would be an adding machine or a punch-card sorter. This would be a pre-req for...

Stored Program Computer -- A device which maintains its instruction sequence in a dynamic storage medium (e.g. the DRAM in the computer you're using right now). Allows much more flexibility than a direct input computing machine.

The Transistor- The transistor is the basis for all modern computers. Integrated Circuits (ICs) use transistors to accomplish most of their functions. The Transistor is what made the "Information Age" possible without large vacuum tubes still ruling computing.

Vacuum Tubes - Among other things, can be used to build digital logic circuits. Vacuum Tubes were the basis for the first electronic computers. (This is an excellent candidate for some of the prereq ideas -- Transistors and Vacuum Tubes are mostly unrelated technologies that both allow computers, but the Transistor has other benefits. So the prereq for "Computers" might be "Computing Machine AND Vacuum Tubes OR Computing Machine AND Transistors", but you need "Transistor AND Computers" for Microprocessors.)

Semiconductors- Makes those microchips possible.

High Level Programming Languages -- Give the user an easier way to program computers.

Seed AI- A "baby" artificial intelligence that can learn and develop itself.

Engineering techs:
Simple Machines -Another very basic tech that would be discovered soon into Engineering research.

Road Building- perhaps not something you start out immediately with.

Masonry- As in CivX.

Ballistics

Architecture- Is this the same as "Construction?"

Canal-Building

Paper- Not really engineering, but vital to scholarly study.

Printing Press- Same as Paper.

Plumbing- A Pre-req to Sanitation, probably.

Clockwork

Hydraulics

Gunnery- early muskets, ar quebuses. The Death of the Knights.

Fortifications- Another more specific minor tech to add.

Electric Light -- This would probably be a minor tech in addition to electricity that improves the living standard of homes, is my guess.

Interchangeable parts- perhaps better than "machine tools?"

Ceramics- Usable in everything from shells to rockets.

Internal Combustion Engine -- A pre-req to "Automobile," perhaps.

Aerodynamics

Satellites- Let's see the whole map revealed, not just the enemy cities (like in CivI)!

Physics Techs so Far:

Electromagnetism- One important branch of classical physics.

Thermodynamics - Another one.

Optics- Yet another one.

Relativity - Perhaps the most important concept in modern physics. Good pre-req for nuclear power.

Quantum Theory

Nuclear Theory- as in CivX.

And Astronomy Techs, a subcategory of Physics:
Astrology- Is this the same as mysticism, or considered something developed after mysticism to allow astronomy?

Astrolabe

Orbital Mechanics- Very high level astronomy, traveling into space.

Chemistry Techs:
Periodic Table -- An important advance in chemistry. Realizing the "order" of chemical elements allowed discovery of new ones and prediction of their properties. Aided understanding of underlying theory of chemistry.

Industrial Chemistry -- A minor tech after chemistry that gives a slight bonus to factories.

Physical Chemistry

Organic Chemistry

Biology Techs:

Genetics/Inheritance Theory- Gregor Mendel style understanding of inheritance

Evolution- Perhaps it would also cause slightly less effective churches as a side effect.

DNA- enhanced genetic theory.

Genetic Engineering- As in CivX.

Botany

The Sub-category of Medicinal Techs:
Lens Grinding- A pre-req to Germ Theory?

Anatomy

Germ Theory- Diseases aren't caused by demons getting into your body after you sneeze.

Circulation of Blood- We don't keep on creating the stuff, it's the same stuff recycled over and over.

Surgery- cutting people up to make them healthy. In early years, mostly limited to amputations, etc

Antiseptics- Insures they don't die after the surgery's done, probably more important than Surgery itself (IMHO).

Physiology

Immunization

Antibiotics

X-Rays -Perhaps a physics tech as well?

Cryogenics- Perhaps increasing the effect of hospitals?

And Agricultural Techs:
Olive, Silk, and Tea Domestication- Early trade goods.

Artificial Fertilizers- Improve food production at the expense of money and industrial pollution?

Herbal Remedies- These have been around since the Stone Age. Not sure if you should need to research these.

Cash Crops -- farm goods which are grown primarily for export because they can command a high price, not because of their local food value. Coffee, cotton, and tobacco might be examples. They might allow you to turn excess food into money.

Crop Rotation -- Important agricultural concept. Improves farm productivity.

Mechanical Farming

Seed Drill

Cotton gin

Artificial selection

Economics Techs:
Currency- As in CivX.

Credit

Capital Markets -Using the minor nations idea, perhaps this could allow ruthless trade policies and imperialist economies.

Keynesian Economics -- The notion that government fiscal (i.e. taxes and spending) policy should be used to limit the effects of the business cycle: low spending during boom years, high spending during recession/depression.

Mercantilism- Running Imperialist Economies. Works great if the "minor nation" idea from other threads is included.

Venture Capitalism

Mercenary Warfare- Not sure if this should need to be researched, but buying armies is always nice...

Multinational Corporation

Advertisement

Tourism

Metallurgical Techs:
Copper Smelting- A very very early tech.

(plus all the standard ones, like Bronze Working, Iron Working...)
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited October 26, 1999).]</font>
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Old July 19, 1999, 23:08   #4
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Everything else suggested:
Nationalism: A big goal of CivIII should be discouraging huge, sprawling empires. The discovery of Nationalism should allow stronger armies and happier home cities, as well as any cities of yours that are captured violently hate your capturers. But it works both ways, too. All cities part of civs that were recently conquered by your empire, were conquered long ago and are still mistreated (i.e. they have imperial garrisons built from your home cities imposing martial law, rather than native-grown garrisons), will start to fester with nationalist feeling.

Contraception: This would be a negative to the growth SE. This would only be desirable if there are negatives to overpopulation put into CivIII, something else that’s important. There would be a proposal in a checkoff list (if the idea is used in the SE thread, similar to the ordinances in SimCity 2000, that would allow you to check off boxes to put things like feudalism, XXX, and XXX in that would add certain positives or negatives regardless of government type) to ban contraception, which would eliminate the growth penalty but increase unhappiness. Also, cities without hospitals that are sufficiently large feel unhappiness after Contraception is introduced.

Paper: Cheap paper was a giant stride forward for scholars, as momentous as that of movable type. A considerable scholarly bonus (a bonus to the speed of research, cheaper libraries, more directed techs under the Blind Research Ratio idea…). Perhaps a later advance can be Paper Money

Standing Army: Perhaps more of a sign of a civ either rich enough to pay soldiers (Romans) or militaristic enough to make all of its citizens soldiers (Spartans). Perhaps this should be a government check-off box choice rather than a tech.

Bureaucracy: Something CTP got right, though it didn’t go far enough. This should be critical and increasing efficiency and making many government types feasible, like widespread Republic/Democracies and Totalitarian states.

Potter's Wheel: Made pottery an economic trade good rather than a household good. Helpful to early trade, perhaps.

Vertical Loom: Commercial production of cloth as a trade good. Yet another thing you can no stock on caravans.

the plow (early)/ Mouldboard plow (late, with cast iron advance): Increases food poduction/food limits. Another thing perhaps done automatically rather than "You need to upgrade this."

Diesel engine: A prerequisite to submersibles.

Submersibles: With Nuclear Power, you should be able to make nuclear subs, which cost a lot more, but can carry missiles, move faster, and require no support. Quiet, cheap diesel subs should still be an option though, and they have to surface every three turns to put new air in their tanks (unlike nukes, which can stay underwater for months).

Reforestation: This should be a difficult tech to achieve. It was too simple to simply plant a new forest in CivX. This is a tricky operation that shouldn’t come until the late Industrial Age.

Multi-use Agriculture (working title): George Washington Carver revolutionized Southern agriculture not just by the crop rotation and legume usage to replenish nitrate in the soil, he also showed that there were many other uses for the peanut and other foods then just "food" (shoe-wax, etc.). Under the x10 system, this would mean that for every 10 food produced, an extra resource or trade icon should also be produced as a bonus side usage of the food.

Wheelbarrow: A slight increase in production, perhaps.

Greek Fire: An offshoot tech that would increase the strength of your catapults. Nothing like napalm’s great great grandfather… not to mention better triremes with Fire ships in your arsenal.

Chemical Warfare: See WWI. Gas Masks would be a low cost addition to infantry, and mustard gas would be a cheap way to savage unprotected troops (but not destroy)… plus, a prerequisite to fertilizers and modern industrial farming.

International law: This tech would be best as a pre-requisite to the United Nations Wonder. While the UN is still not built, a temporary "League of Nations" would meet but not have binding authority after you discover this tech.

Epidemiology: An advanced branch of medicine that can drastically reduce your risk of plagues spreading into your lands.

Enviornmentalism subcategory: hydrogeology, exotoxicology, bioremedition, extinction prevention, contaminated land reclamation : Basically everything required to do your pollution clean-up. With the minor/offshoot techs idea, there’s a whole bunch of other advances that allow you to clean up different environments and decrease the time required in a clean-up.

Oceanography- Definitely a minor tech, perhaps a pre-requisite for Offshore Platforms and finding oil in the seas?

Animal Domestication: A pre-4000 BC tech that perhaps everyone starts out with, perhaps?

Geology: Not sure on this one. Perhaps it makes it easier to find mineral deposits, if they are hidden that is.

Logic: Yet another minor tech, a pre-req for many philosophical ideas.

Photography: It has no effect on the game, but you see a different kind of newspaper now. Another example of an advance you don’t technically research, it comes along with another advance.

Telegraph: Better communication allows better control from the government, making strong centralized governments stronger. It reduces the effective distance from the capital, if a road (and the corresponding telegraph lines without your input) exists between your city and the capital, thus reducing waste in centralized governments?

Concrete: Allows better roads, maybe 1/4 a movement point instead of 1/3. Can be pillaged for resources, if you’re desperate (that’s what happened during the Dark Ages to the Roman roads).
Fireworks: No real effect in the grand scheme of things, though they should change the "We Love the Leader Day" Animation when this is discovered.

Lightbulbs: Increases work done perhaps, due to night work/reading. A useful minor tech after electricity.

wooden barrel: By decreasing spoilage, trade is easier, and trade income is increased. This is definitely something that you can’t research/is an Offshoot Tech, since it is something that you discover completely by accident (and then pass it on to others through trade).

hot air balloons: Would allow some cheap reconnaissance in older days, and with better weather forecasting, an extremely slight increase in food growth…

tanning: A pre-4000 BC technique.

the bayonet: If you include arquebusiers, then this advance would upgrade them to musketeers (and eliminate the need for pikemen/halberdiers). This is definitely an area where auto-upgrading would be nice, since building units on the scale of time where it takes 100 years for it to be produced, if technology advances in such short leaps they would be long obsolete.

Scientific Method: Increases science research?

Distillation: A prerequisite to Medicine?

telecommunications
Painting
Weaving
Brewing
drafting
Gearworks
Urbanization
Regulation
Deism
The Pump
Calendar
textiles
Colonization
the chimney/fireplace
Aristocracy
Civilian Watch
Civilian Rights
Veteran's services
Social Reform
Women's Movement
Legalized Prostitution
Prohibition
Gun Control
Revolution
Training
Code of Conduct
Heliocentrism
Targeting
Military Algorithm
Mobilization
Martial Arts
Geography
Total War
Environmental Ethics
Cuisine
Horticulture
Entrepenurialism
Globalization
Humanism
Empiricism
Nuclear Disarmament
Art of War
Rationalization
The Enlightenment
Money Economy
Nuclear Deterrence
Nuclear Warfighting
Nuclear Defense

Futuristic Techs, possibly realistic:
Cloning- A growth bonus that perhaps also increases chance of revolts from angry religious people. No bonus in fundamentalist societies.

Organic industry- The ultimate in clean industries, it produces remarkably little pollution.

Arcologies- dramatically increases population limit, allows deep sea colonies, reduces pollution, and crowded people more prone to riot.

Deep core mining- This can be a city improvment or a terrain improvement that's a primitive thermal borehole, depending on how you look at it.

Orbital construction- pretty self-explanatory.

Fuel cells- Dramatic power possiblities here. Perhaps a bonus to ships and spaceships.

Commercial spacefaring- make $$$ for space exploration.

Lasers- Heck, we have them now, but for a usable SDI.

Wakeways- "trails" of fuel pods in space that primitive ramjets use to quickly speed from one planet to another

Artificial intelligence- While this is supposed to be discovered in SMAC, if you let the Seed AI grow long enough you may end up with an AI anyway. Be armed with an excuse for why this wasn't taken to Alpha Centauri if you do put this very realistic tech in.

Spaceport- More of an improvement than a tech, it allows, well the futuristic version of an airport.

Terraforming- IF we actually colonize the Moon, Mars in CivIII, this will be quite useful.

Eugenics- Similar to cloning, Hitler would have loved to have had eugenics. Growth and happiness bonus in facist SE's; cannot be researched by fundamentalist societies.

Metallic foam- Useful for ultralightweight construction.

Neural interface/neurohacking- So that Zakharov can be hooked up, and the intelligence of children can be improved in certain areas through surgery.

Nanotechnology- Vital for ultra-high speed computer, terraforming, and makes a fanastic destroy-the-world machine. Spies can plant nanorobots in societies to turn people's brains and bodies into goo and that ravage entire cities and lands.

Laser induced fusion- Powerful lasers, and a prerequsite to-

Fusion drive- What makes the Unity go, aside from the solar panels it also carries. A vital tech to allow the UNS Unity Wonder.

Antimatter/antimatter containment- Even in primitive form, allows extra power to go to space colonies and increases the speed of the Unity.

Hydroponics- Growing plants by putting them in nutrient-spiked water tanks. Useful out in space and on the moon.

Microgee agriculture- Another good way of growing stuff in space.

Nanomedicine- Another fine use of those nanorobots, good for cell repair and removing blockages.

Personality constructs- Perhaps with AI's, they can simulate human personalities as well, aside from their normal AI-self.

Mass drivers- Basically a gun in space that, er, drives mass into other things at high speeds.

Twin ion engine- A bad method for short range travel, good for intermediate distance; takes a long time to build up to speed, but useful for driving items across interplanetary distances with little fuel.

Futuristic Techs and realism questionable:
Warp drive- Considering that the Unity doesn't use one, this certainly can't be developed in CivIII's era and have a reasonable plot- not to mention the little problem of the physics. Actually, bigger than little.

Psychohistory- Not likely. Asimov was wrong, Large societies are much harder to predict than small ones.

Robopsychology- I personally doubt this will be a problem, but who knows?

Zero point energy- Energy from nowhere. A more plausible alternative may be a "space vacuum" where atoms floating out in space are sucked up and turned into energy.

Xenobiology (exobiology)- There may be microbes on Mars, and learning about them would be quite helpful.

ICE- "Intrusion Countermeasures Electronics," used to protect your mind, and thus your spies, from detection? Or just mental conditioning, which has been around for ages?

Eptification- A form of re-education.

Elite conscription- Recruiting the smartest and most educated people for the army/navy.

Phaser/Turbolaser- For those that like Star Trek and Star Wars.

Artificial gravity (antigravity)- It'd be really useful if we had it, though it may well be impossible. Discovered in SMAC, late game anyway.

Universal translator- Perhaps an AI that is devoted to learning all languages and translating them?

Scrith- What Larry Niven's Ringworld is built with. No, I don't know what it is either.

Hyperatomic motivator- A good weapon, making your enemies atoms jump around. Problem: Heisenberg's uncertainly principle.

Liquid metal (mimetic polyalloy)- A la T1000. Might actually be possible with nanorobots. Would create very strong tanks, planes, etc.

Positronic matrix- Uses decay of positrons to emulate a human brain. A different way of creating an AI. Rather hard to control.

Spindizzy generator- A way of using anti-gravity to put cities in flight with a different name.

Planckscale machines- Nanotechnology taken to the extreme, where work as done at lengths of down to 1x10^-30 m.

The ekumen- A form of interplanetary government.

Matter replication- Discovered in SMAC, so it's probably out.

Kinetic Weapons & Inertia Nullification- Highly mobile units with de-stabilizing weapons that send enemies spiraling out of control. Problem: Inertial Damping was a proposed tech for SMAC.

Parts of this are horribly wrong and need correcting? Great! Post now and tell us what your idea is to make this list better, which is our only goal here.

-------------
SnowFire, Technology Thread-Manager.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by SnowFire (edited August 25, 1999).]</font>
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Old July 20, 1999, 00:12   #5
yin26
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SF,

I just want to say that your work here is very impressive indeed. If the technology aspect of Civ3 is awesome, we'll know who we have to thank...
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Old July 20, 1999, 07:58   #6
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Woah!

What do all the "SA" notes mean?
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Old July 20, 1999, 08:28   #7
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"Specific Application."
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Old July 20, 1999, 11:43   #8
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okie.. I thought the A was for application

A tiny tech idea, but one that would be very nice for atmosphere.

"Greek Scientists discover Mysticism!" sounds silly. Our 'scientists' have 'discovered' mysticism?

A little variation would be nice, especially if the idea of tech categories (medecine, physics, arts, etc) are implemented.

For example: "Greek philosophers develop Mysticism." "French doctors develop Anatomy" "Egyptian physicists develop the Theory of Gravity" "Chinese engineers develop the Railroad"

I didn't notice till after I wrote that how important the word "develop" is. The Civ style of techs are not discoveries (for the most part) but practicle developments of ideas. We can discover a new planet, or a new continents, but you don't discover an idea. Ideas are developed. (Gunpowder might still be a discovery, since it was more an accident than a straightforward development of ideas.)
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Old July 20, 1999, 13:07   #9
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Interesting... well, you can discover electricity, but you definitely invent the lightbulb. I'll make sure to add different words than "develop" and "wise men/scientists" to the "You got a tech" screen.
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Old July 20, 1999, 15:27   #10
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"the guy who said life in the Middle Ages was "Nasty, brutish, and short" for feudalism,"

I'm pretty sure it was Hobbes, and I am certain he was a Classical, not Medieval, writer.

Snowfire--impressive work, but how about what Brian said about applications? It seemed that, with alot of the ideas, I didn't get a sense how they would work in the game.
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Old July 20, 1999, 15:33   #11
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True. Nothing particularly medieval about Leviathan. Well, except maybe the philosophy... but we won't get into that now.

It's "Odyssey." Based on the name Odysseus. I'm a little touchy on this point because I just encountered a typo in Microprose's Birth of the Federation game. I believe they spelled it "Odessy." I was in quite a hurry to send the U.S.S. Odessy off to get destroyed by a wing of Klingon battle cruisers...
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Old July 21, 1999, 00:02   #12
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Note that I never said Hobbes was a medieval writer; but it seems he did write about the Middle Ages. And he certainly wasn't a Classical writer, he wrote during the late 17th century IIRC.

Good point, I did misspell poor Ulysses’ name.
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Old July 21, 1999, 10:01   #13
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Here are a few that I like:

- Fishing: Allow city to get food only from water squares adjacent to the city as an early advancement.

- FireFighting: Allow Fire Station (See my post in the Terrain thread)

- Mining: Allow engineers to remove land mines. (See my post in the Units thread)

- Sea Mining: Allow the Sea Miner unit (See my post in the Units thread)
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Old July 27, 1999, 08:29   #14
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Proposal: "Colonization" advance. Discovery of this advance starts the colonial era with new opportunities and problems desribed in the quote below. Colonies, a special type of city, can be built although not totally under player's control. Later, new values and ideologies (like nationalism, free trade and human rights) make the old style colonial profit reaping less acceptable and thus no more colonies allowed.


This from my post in CIVILIZATIONS thread:

"Hmmm, perhaps if a city has much unhappiness, there is a chance that part of the city's population will leave and found a new colony far away from your homeland cities. The whole process would be automated, outside player's control (except modifying unhappiness of course). There could be a certain "Colonization" technology that must be first researched (or maybe finding a new unsettled continent could enable it). The distant colony would still be part of your civilization. It would produce loads of money (colonial trade), but would also have high unhappiness (a representative government could reduce/eliminate the extra unhappiness). If a colony falls to disorder even for one turn, there's a considerable chance it will declare independence and other nearby colonies might then join it to found a new civilization (maybe a 20-30 turn period before this is allowed). Some later technology ("Nation State"? Industrialization?) could then end the colonial era, i.e. no more colony formation allowed and remaining colonies join your civ as normal cities."
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Old July 27, 1999, 10:56   #15
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I do agree that there should be more realistic tech advances. Like how does 'Industrialization' allow you to build Women's Suffrage? Or, the already mentioned point about Labor Union giving you Mech. Infantry?

Also, the emphasis is put in the wrong places. What I mean is, in Civ II, most of the advances are engineering, economy, and physics-mathematics. The only real philosophy advances are philosophy and the various government systems. And what of biology and agriculture? Did you somehow forget about those areas of science and life?
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Old July 27, 1999, 14:03   #16
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Like how does 'Industrialization' allow you to build Women's Suffrage

That one at least was fairly logical. Industrialization created many changes in its wake, among them the employment of large amounts of women, which you could argue directly lead to the first primitive women's rights movements.

See idea 3.3 in reference to your second idea.

A Colonization advance? Interesting... I'll stick it in, but personally (as a contributor, not a TM) I think that would be more a Social Engineering choice. What would be a cool idea for the Radical thread would be distinct "phases" of the game- i.e., have a continent inhabited only by primitives that's only reachable once the Age of Exploration starts, and then the AI shifts to a colonizing AI as the Indians and natives get slaightered and taken over by the more advanced conquistadores.
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Old July 27, 1999, 15:16   #17
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Cultural tech advances:

In the Social Engineering thread M@ni@c suggested that there be SE categories along the lines of Nationalism, Culture, and such. I forget the exact benefits/penalties of high/low Culture ratings (if I remember correctly a high Culture rating causes other Civ's cities to eventually defect and their populations to defect to you).

An idea: Culture will not only be determined by SE choices, but it will also be determined by what Cultural tech advances your Civ has made. Most Cultural tech advances will be optional (you don't really need Painting in order to build rifles and tanks), but the more "research" you dedicate towards Culture and the Arts the more emigration you'll have, the more cities will defect, the happier your people will be, and the more loath other nations will be to attack you.

Note the quotes around Cultural "research." This idea deviates slightly from the norm, but perhaps Cultural tech advances could be attained some way other than through "scientific research." Maybe Cultural tech advances could be reached through gathering "culture" or "philosophy" points instead of "research" points. This is probably highly unnecessary, but my fear is that if tech inertia and synergy are employed (which I am in favor of) then it will be extremely difficult for Cultural advances to be made. Perhaps an easier way to avoid Cultural stagnation of this sort would be to have less effeciency be lost through research goal changes so long as the changes are being made towards Culture? (or, better yet, the amount of effeciency lost would be determined by the Culture level in the SE settings.)

For more on this, see the Social Engineering thread on Culture, posted by M@ni@c
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Old July 27, 1999, 15:20   #18
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By the way, I noted that there was nothing in the summary about the Soldier Specialists idea I brought over here from the Movement and Supply thread (It was Korn's idea originally so he's got a more fleshed out plan for them). Was this unanimously called a bad idea or did it get passed by (there were no responses to it, so the latter was entirely possible)? Should I repost the idea or let it die?
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Old July 27, 1999, 16:08   #19
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It's in there, just not explicitly so. I'll add your specific variation next revision. I figured it was roughly the same thing as the "Famous Scientists" variation...
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Old July 27, 1999, 17:15   #20
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a soldier specialist is not the same thing as a famous scientist unit. instead of sheilds units are supported by soldier specialist.

a soldier specialist is like any other specialist (doctor technician empath ect) it provides bonuses

+1 pysch -2 econ +2 labs[when researching a combat tech] -2 labs[when researching a peace tech]

i can explain it in more dpth if you like.

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Old July 27, 1999, 19:40   #21
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(sorry Korn, I forget names)
...the other part of the Soldier Specialists being that such an idea could be expanded to having Scientist specialists specifically tooled to working in one area. Instead of having run-of-the-mill Scientists you could have Philosophers, Biologists, Chemists, Physicists, Gurus/Rabbies/High Priests, etc., and switching them back and forth would sacrifice efficiency. But as I've said previously, such a system might be a pain in the buttocks to implement and would probably require too much micromanaging, and it also looks like such a system would be redundant (if there are Buildings specifically tooled to research one path).

However, the Soldier Specialist is something apart from the Super-Micromanagement Specialist Scientists, and should likewise be considered separately (I personally love the idea that if you're at war and you're research a peace tech that you get a research penalty).

One suggestion regarding Research Inertia: Perhaps different tech paths could be considered to be "in opposition to", "slightly related to", or "related to" another tech path. An example would be that Pure Science would be "in opposition to" Agriculture, but would be "related to" Industry (computer chips). This would mean that there would be less inefficiency in shifting from Pure Science to Industry than in shifting from Pure Science to Agriculture. (I don't care if my example is incorrect, it's just an example).

A general comment on Future Techs: I don't know if the game is supposed to end where SMAC begins and that there should thus be no tech overlap (personally I hope that the game extends on several hundred years into the 21st century), but if that is the plan than I don't see why tech overlap should be overruled. Consider this: it takes the Unity several decades to reach Alpha Centauri. In that time period, no new scientific breakthroughs made on Earth are sent to the Unity. Furthermore, the Earth nations are pumping out tech advances just as fast as they come, while on Alpha Centauri the poor Unity survivors have to get situated before they make their future tech advances. THEREFORE, we should be able to have some tech overlap, because the Earth scientists will be able to make dozens of discoveries after the Unity is launched but before the world blows up.

Great work, keep it up.
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Old July 27, 1999, 21:25   #22
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I prefer getting rid of all "specialists".
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Old July 27, 1999, 21:50   #23
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Theben: Explain. What do you propose to replace specialists?
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Old July 29, 1999, 13:30   #24
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Regarding idea 2.13: Further research in a tech advance:
I approve of this idea, but something that concerns me is that nobody will take advantage of doing further research until they have the highest military techs, ex. why should I do further research into longbows insteade of just trying to get howitzers and tanks first and then doing further research into those two military units? I for one can see myself never doing further research until I've maxed out in techs, and then starting to max out in my maxed out techs.

Two solutions as I see them: first off, have there be so many future techs, and have them be so difficult to research, that NOBODY but the most die-hard researching Civ will be able to max out on the tech tree. This will force Civs to do further research--their shoddy tanks are going to get crushed by the enemy's advanced tanks before they'll be able to research the next military unit.

The second solution is that prototypes occasionally fail, i.e. muskets will be effectively useless until further research is done into them. The first firearms would jam and/or blow up all the time, often killing the people using them. In fact, the first time firearms were used in combat (I'm not sure of this, correct me if I'm wrong, Diodorus), they had pikemen to back them up, because they were sitting ducks out on their own. A civ will still be able to avoid doing further research into muskets because the further research will still get done, albeit much more slowly, as that civ researches its new tech advance. But in the meantime, not only are the enemy's upgraded archers going to be much more powerful than your musketeers, but your own non-upgraded archers will also be more powerful.

I for one favor the second option, of having new military units be pathetic. Any arguments/suggestions?
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Old July 29, 1999, 19:32   #25
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I never really liked specialists. You pull 10,000 people out of the fields and all of a sudden they're scientists with PhD's? Or skilled entertainers? Now you want "soldiers"? How about they all stay "citizens"? Tweak the game so there are other means of pacifying-taxing-getting better research from your people.
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Old July 30, 1999, 14:11   #26
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Summary updated.

As a poster, I agree with you Theben. Plus, this idea would make technology very slow in the beginning of the game- expand fast with lots of food, or research? Truly a devil's choice.

Are there are other ways of supporting units other than the Soldier Specialist? Unless you're dramaticaly revamping CivIII's population scale (like 60 people to an average city), that's a big chunk of population. And even in peacetime, roughly one or two armies per city is not uncommon. You'd be a total slave to military techs.

Now, if in addition to the standard number of armies supported per city, soldier specialists allowed you to support 3 more armies and have other benefits, you might have a good idea.
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Old July 30, 1999, 15:07   #27
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technophile: Did you say several hundred years into the 21st century? I hate to break it to you, but, like most centuries, the 21st is exactly one hundred years long. Do you mean the 3rd millenium?
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Old August 4, 1999, 17:26   #28
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Technopile,

I am (very) glad you distribute around my SE ideas (eg about Culture), cause I don't think many people are reading the SE thread.
But if you have new effects for certain SE factors like Culture, I certainly will not stop you to post them too in the SE thread.
You must understand that I don't have the time to read all threads (all my energy is absorbed by discussing with the people over there - Jon Miller is really giving my model a hard time).

So if you have new ideas about SE and you want to make sure I read them, also post them at SE.
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Old August 7, 1999, 10:28   #29
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Divide some techs into "theoretical" and "application". "theoretical" would always have less research points than "application" (It is easier to develop a theory than an actual working prototype).
You would have to research the "theoretical" before the "application". You would only be considered to have a discovered a tech in the civ2 sense when you complete the "application". Some civ2 techs would only have "theoretical" such as Monotheism or Philosophy. A tech like Advanced flight would have both "theoretical" and "application". When you finish the "theoretical" part, you would have an appropriate message like "Our scientists have discovered that it is possible for Man to fly, they will begin work on a first prototype of a flying machine." After completing the "application" part, you would get the message like "Our scientists have completed the first flying machine, they call it the airplane."

By separating techs into two parts, this would:
1)accurately represent the historical aspect of theoretical and application part of technologies (even today some have a theory for FTL drive but actually acheiving it is more difficult).
2) in diplomacy, only to trade the "theoretical" part, the other civ would still have to complete the rest of the research himself/herself.
3) spies would only steal the "theoretical" part, you would still have to research the rest yourself. This would facilitate your research but not make spying so powerful that you can just still everything. I agree with those that say that spies are too powerful because why do any research at all if you can just steal it. This would counter this unfair strategy and make research necessary.
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Old August 7, 1999, 11:03   #30
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My idea could easily be implemented by dividing the tech into to separate techs one to represent the "theoretical" the other tech to represent the "application. They would distinguishable because one would always be called "Theory of ..." and the other would be called just the name of the discovery. Ex: the civ2 tech "Rocketry" would become two separate techs, one "Theory of Rocketry" which would be a prerequesite to "Rocketry" which would actually give you the cruise missile, the nuke, SAM site etc...
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