SOCIAL ENGINEERING/GOVERNMENT (ver2.1): Hosted by Bell - Page 7

Jon Miller · August 14, 1999, 04:10

Hi all

one problem with your generalties is that you say things about a government but it is only true with the values that that government has

why is a senate always peaceful (this has not been true always in modern times)?

other things that are attributed to government or economics are really from values that might just happen to occur at the same time

that is one reason why my se idea is best

Jon Miller

Harel · August 14, 1999, 09:14

Full version 3

Like I said before Maniac, read your post and my explnation on my SE options carefully. Till then, I am going to just ignore what you did in goverments.

List of modifactors

1. Police ( Pol )

2. Militarial ( Mil ): Once an for all. +5 mil will give you +25% shield output ( like production, only 5% ) when building military units, and reduce cost of all maintance by 5 gold each ( I reduce the production bonus to +5% since it needs to be united with support ).

3. Production ( Pro ): gives +10% per unit to civilan production.

4. Corruption ( Corr )

5. Growth ( Grow )

6. Expreince ( Exp ): for morale and spy sucess

7. Loyality ( Loy ): for increasing bring cost, conversion defence, reuce emigartion and espionage defence.

8. Culture ( Cult ): For senate intervension and rate of assmilting captured cities.

9. Research ( Res )

10. Economy ( Eco )

11. Enviroment ( Env ): for treating with pollution and gives +10% per unit to food-based tiles.

12. Happiness ( Hap )

13. Taxes ( Tax )

14. Relations ( Rel ): for diplomacy and bonus from trade routes. Colonization, maniac, had internal trade only: it didn't trade with other colonial companies. Therefor, colonization could get a small economy bonus, balanced by a rel minus which means the trade would suck.

Model 3 - using the new modifactors

Very few changes to the SE options themselfs: I almost perfected the system.
For numbers, I await maniac.
If he won't compile, I just give my own, "un-balanced" numbers

Goverment

* I added parlimental to monarchial series: but the king in this system would have more power then in today modern goveremnts ( some what more in the lines of the time of Magna carta in England, where the power transfer was only taking place ).
* Against my better judment ( it doesn't seem important enough for me ) I added tribal assembly.

Anarchy
Despotism->Military autocraty->Police state
Monarchy->Empireship->Parlimental
Dictatorship->Totalirist
Lordship->Theocracy
Tribal assembly->Republic->Democracy->True democracy

Markets

* I changed local markets to feudalism again since maniac seem to be too confused by the name ( or else I can't explain Fares ).
* I added capitlsm, since indeed the roman empire had a mostly free market.

Barter->Currency->Stock exchange
Feudalism->Protectionism->Colonial
Social->Communism->Utopia
Capitalism->Banking->Free market->Transnational

Structure

Structres don't evolve over time Maniac. Don't try to push extra name inside. This list is stasfactory.
A slider bar best fit here, btw.

City state <-> Confedarte <-> Empire <-> Federal

Values

Passive ( better 0/0 name )
Power
Wealth
knowladge
Wealthfare

Army

* By civic duty I am refering that Military service is required, but sport a feeling of acceptings and honor to serve the country.

Basic
Mercenary->Military caste->Trained
Militia->Volunteer->Civic duty
Leeve in mass->Draft->Conscription

Research

Naturistic, Philoshopical, Explorer, Prarical

Religon

* Who said that Monotheism should get a different bonus from Polytheism? Here are my suggestions:

Loose religon: 0/0
Strong religon: +Mor, -Res
Intolerance: +Pol, -Hap
Freedom: +Hap, -Pol
Athiesm: +Res, -Culture

Harel · August 14, 1999, 15:55

Look at me. I just posted up the ver.3 model, and allready I want to change things. I had a very good friend at home, and being the civ-nut I am I asked him to help me with the model.

The end result is a very fundemntal change to market.
The only positive thing about the endless amount of versions i spawn off faster then i can type them in, that they DO become more historicaly accurate. I think that diodorus will agree that markets now are even more historicaly accurate then ever.

Model ver. 4 - partial ( market )

Ok, first I outline what I had before:

Barter->Currency->Stock exchange
Feudalism->Protectionist->Colonial
Social->Communism->Utopia
Capitalist->Banking->Free market->Transnational

And here is the new suggestions:

Basic

Three steps of the basical evoultion of economics over time.

Barter -> Currency -> Stock exchange

Controled

From a self-supporting market, to a global economy, a controled market was always thightly controled by the goverment.

Autarcial -> Fairs -> Feudalism -> Colonial

+ Prod, - Rel

Autarcial ( self supporting market ): The first market option right after bartering. This market system is comprimised by a series of small, autonomical markets that each is self sustaining. They are not linked in any way. Every city ( market ) stand alone by itself.

Fairs, that usally were financed and orginzed by the local/federal goverment, were mainly used by the 11th-13th centaury, and the post-major-cultures to show unique items from one city to another. A single annual fair sometime gave money to sustain familes for many months.

Feudalism were a form of better originzed autorcial and fairs system. Each single market was firmly placed and controled by the local bishop/lord/mayor that reported to the national govermenet and was in good connection with the other local markets.

As the nation grew, and trade with other nations was well established, the goverment stopped to control single markets: far too messy and in-effiecent. By using govermenet controled and financed companies, the goverment could control the nation at a much larger, more effiecent manner.

Directed

Directed markets were used by Europe, from the early 15th to the 20th centaury when direct control of the markets was either impossile, in-effeicent or not profitable. The independancy of those controled markets made it hard to trade with other nations: and some nations wants to trade.
Therefor, the used policies, either then direct control, to effect the markets.

Protectionism -> Meracntalism -> Nationalzation

+ Corr, -Eco

I think that by now we all know what protectionism and mecrantlism are.

Nationalazation

Main companies and factories and nationalized: thier CEO are elected and chosen by the govermenet and the policy and mostly shaped by the in-direct orders of the state. However, it grealy differ from Socialism by that the aim of this market option is pure effiency, other then gain to the people.

Social

Market type that are explicity aimed to treat the public.

Social -> Labor union -> Communism -> Utopia

+ Hap, - Tax

Communism and Utopia are clear enough by now.

Social market is when most vital industries, such as cloths, farms and water providing are nationalized to the direct control of the goverment. Major subdies, food quotning and job for every person who wants to work are what greatly differ this market system from Free market.

Labor union is a 19th centaury development, that beyond the govermenet control of vital industies, most workers have formed up into unions that can better treat, provied and understand the needs of the worker class.

Free

This has suffered the smallest change.

Guilds -> Banking -> Free market -> Transnational

+ Eco, - Mil

The only change is Guilds. The most early free markets were guilds: the first one date back to the days of the roman empire ( Capitlisation is a rahter new term ). Guilds have an almost unlimited autonomy in the market. Banking replaced the power of economical autonomy, and increased it by offering everyone citizen part of the action ( where guilds only helped each member ).

Summary

<list>
Barter->Currency->Stock exchange
Autarcy->Fairs->Feudalism->Colonial
Protectionsim->Mercantlism->Nationalization
Social->Labor union->Communism->Utopia
Guilds->Banking->Free market->Transnational
</list>

Maniac · August 14, 1999, 16:30

Jon Miller :

"why is a senate always peaceful (this has not been true always in modern times)?"

You're right. That's why I would like the AI civs to have a reputation too. Then the senate could decide to continue military action against a betraying civ.

Harel :

"Like I said before Maniac, read your post and my explnation on my SE options carefully. Till then, I am going to just ignore what you did in goverments."

I read your explanation. What makes you think I didn't?

"Like I said before Maniac, read your post and my explnation on my SE options carefully. Till then, I am going to just ignore what you did in goverments."

If I don't agree completely with your SE factors and choices, I find it useless to give them numbers.

First we have to agree on 1) the factors and then 2) the choices.

Government

Parliamental is not the logical evolution of Empireship. Totalitarianism is.

Lordship is bad.
I suggest Monasteries. Similar buildings and communities (some with other names) appear in some religions.
In the case of spreading Christianity in Europe in the early Middle Ages, they had great power and were the actual authority.

Still don't agree with your police state track.

My Government

1) Despotism
->1.1)Military Junta
->1.2)Dynasty
-->1.2.1)Empireship/Abolute Monarchy
--->1.2.1.1)Totalitarianism
-->1.2.2)Parliamentary Monarchy

2) Tribal Assembly
->Republic
-->Democracy
--->True Democracy

3) Monasteries
->Theocracy

Economy

Harel, because you don't know Hanzes, doesn't mean they were historically important.
I stick with Hanzes.

Harel, there should be a distinction between state organized and private economies in 1500-1800.

The Indian companies determined the economies, and they weren't state planned.
You could call them the colonial time evolution of Hanzes, which were also trade groups.

So how would you call an economy with Indian Companies?

BTW, Mercantilism/Colonial was state planned, so then you could call Communism the next step in state planned economies.

Oh yea, I think the Greek City State economy before they began trading was Autarkie = Self Supply. Manorialism is also self supply. Perhaps I should rename it.

Barter
->Currency

Capitalist
->Free Market
-->Transnational

Manorialism/Autarkie
->Fairs/Hanze
-->Indian Companies?

Mercantilism/Colonial
->Communism
-->Utopia

So everything except Currency has 2 evolutions. Though I don't like the name cause it isn't a simple economy, an evolution of Currency could be Stock Exchange.

Structure

Sigh. Slider bars. I totally don't see how slider bars can be combined with fix SE factors.

Imperial
->Federal

City State
->Feudal
->Confederate
-->Commonwealth

Value

Survival
->Power
Imperialism
Socialism
Wealth
Knowledge

Research

Wise Men, Natural, Philosophical, Practical, Explorer

Religion

Animism, Religious Freedom, Establishment, Fundamentalism, Prosecution

Army

Draft is certainly not the same as conscription.

Basic
Mercenary ]_\
Military caste ] / Professional
Militia -> Conscription
Levee in mass -> Draft

[b]Reorganized Factors :[b]

Police, Urbanization, Research, Taxes, Economy : same old.

6) Nationalism :
Religious Defense/Conviction
Emigration Defense
Bribing Defense/Cost of enemy spy actions
Less punishment for atrocities

7) Production :
Non-military Unit/Building/Wonder Production
+ and - % of Irrigation/Farm Production (not all the food!)

8) Environmentalism :
Pollution
Natural Disasters
+ and - % of Forest/Jungle/any tree type terrain Production

9) Relations :
Diplomacy
Commerce

10) Bureaucracy :
same as Corruption

Now the problems.

11) Senate :
Senate Restrictions
A completely different 'factor'.
Perhaps, because it causes so much problems, I could make it a 'Special' Factor.

Every Government type gets a Senate + or -, dependent on how representative your gov is.

The Survival Value would get a large +(less Senate interference), simulating that in times of war the people are more warlike.

Name problems

12) Military :
Support
City Construction Bonus(100 free resources when founding cities)
Unit Production

13) Morale :
Unit Morale
Spy Morale
Spy Success Rate
+ modifiers halved

Military and Morale are bad names for what they represent.
Help from a military specialist needed. Harel?

These factors can be combined. Do it?

14) Happiness :
Assimilation Rate
Your Spy Operation Costs
Happiness Rate

15) Evangelism :
Ease of Cleric Conversion
Ease of Automatic City Conversion
Religious Attack(=Evangelism)

So makes again 15 factors. Reducing it to ten as in SMAC is impossible cause these factors do a lot more than the SMAC factors did.

Maniac · August 14, 1999, 17:14

Hmm Harel, just saw your new post.
Glad we came independently on the Autarkie idea.
Only we(or I and your friend) seem to give a different meaning to it.

I agree of course with the Autarcial->Fair change, cause I made it myself.

But where did you get the idea Feudalism is a market? Manorialism is.

And where do you get the idea that Autarcial/Fairs/Manorial is state controlled.
Just the opposite.
That Colonial evolution is totally wrong.

Labor Union and Communism are historically spoken close to each other.
Labor Unions evolved to the communist idea very quickly.

Do you know what guilds are?
They did NOT exist in the Roman era.
They arose in the Middle Ages. They existed only in the city. Exception : trading guilds, like the Hanze. They were some kind of labor union. They are social.
And they stagnated cause individual change by one labor union member forbidden. So in later periods it had less economy, you could say. No +2 Eco.
Therefore the eg textile industry moved from the city to the countryside, where it was also cheaper.
I'm sure Diodorus agrees with this.

So out Guilds there should arise two types of economy.
The open international Indian Companies out of trading guilds.
The closed labor unions out of the industrial guilds located in cities.
The first option should have a small Eco bonus.
The second option an economy penalty.

Around the same time arose state controlled, protectionist economies. I think I shouldn't assume it as an evolution of Guilds.

Perhaps the evolution of Currency should be Autarcial.

Or perhaps I should combine Indian Companies to Mercantilism.
?

Better Market :

Barter
->Currency

Autarcial
->Guilds
-->Indian Companies(please provide me with a better name)
--->Mercantilism
---->Colonial
->Guilds
-->Labor Union
--->Communism
---->Utopia

Capitalist
->Banking
-->Free Market
--->Transnational

Harel · August 14, 1999, 17:39

Hmmm.
You know? Your are right. Colonail markets WERE historialy connected to feudalism. But it IS a different market type. Since the colonial companies were directed by the govermenet, not controled, it's more fitting into the directed section.

However, you are wrong about the guilds. They DID have guilds in the roman era. I distincly remember reading I claudies ( I am very fond of those two books ), and i remember claudies debate with the "shitwrighter guilds" to bring wheat cheaper to the famined rome.

About the hansa ( not hanze ), it was a trade alliance of several northen german cities ( mainly lobek and Hamborg ) in the 12th-14th cenautry. It could, and should, be described as a trade pact which was allready suggested at diplomacy. I know, I suggested it.

Therefor, look at what I suggest:

simple: 0/0
Barter->Currency->Stock exchange
Agreed?

stand-alone: +production / -trade
Autarcy->Fairs->Manorilism->?
Manorilism need to evolve inth something otherways it's a sitting duck.

directed: +effiency / -economy
Protectionsim->Mercantlism->Colonial->Nationalization
Agreed? Colonial was in a different time frame of merctanlism

Social: +Happiness / -taxes
Socialism->Labor union->Communism->Utopia
Agreed?

free: +Economy / -military
Guilds->Banking->Free market->Transnational

Guilds were a form of free market. They have an autonomy in the market, so they economy turned free. But the guilds only took care of them selfs, when banking was created the power of free economy was free to everyone.

Structres

Don't use evolving options here! Structre is a universal things, just like values! No -> at all!
And empire is distinct from federal, and confedrate is distinct from feudal! You can't unite them! And for pete sacks, let go of that commonwealth! You just seem to push it in everytime!

Slider bar:
Feudal <-> Confedarte <-> Empire <-> Federal

+Corr,-Tax<-------------------->+Tax,-Corr

Goverments

You can dance and your head for all I care. Dictatorship is distinct from monarchy, and it's disticnt from despotism. You need three groups, and no helping it.
I won't budge for this. I explained this enough times. My reasoning is flawless. Control/Absloute power/Monarchial. Three groups. No less , no more.
Beside, any person who wants totaliristm to replace monarchy doesn't no jack about history.
[This message has been edited by Harel (edited August 14, 1999).]

Maniac · August 14, 1999, 19:29

Harel :

First of all, with all your spelling errors I don't really know sure, but you seem to confuse Autarki with Autocracy.
If you do, stop discussing.

And yes, in small nations as the Greek City States, Autarki is as state controlled as it can get.

But in large nations as all European medieval ones, each manor and village had it's own autarki and that was as decentralized as it can get.
So I think I'll have to split them.

The first thing comparable to guilds appeared in the 5th century.
The name appeared in the 8th century.
The first real guilds appeared around 1000.

Although I Claudius is good, if the name guilds appears in it, it's an anachronism.

In fact I know quite a lot about Roman wheat transport.
When Egypt became a Roman province, there was an STATE organized wheat line Rome - Alexandria that brought 150000 ton wheat every year to Rome.
The Praefectus Annonae had to take care it happened smoothly.
There were STATE owned ships built by the STATE of 50 meters length and 13 meters broad and deep.
Quite huge, he. Such large cargo ships even never made the trip over the Atlantic until 1820.

So sorry for your precious book, but wheat transport is organized by a Praefectus Annonae, so a conversation between the emperor and a simple trader is unlikely and secondly the state organized wheat transport, so it's unlikely they would hire a trader with tiny ships.

So YOU must recheck your sources.

I also read in a book about a Carthaginian bank(actually it was a simple money lender - that was why I said Banking existed in the ancient age) while that is very unlikely.
You insulted me for just assuming there could be something like a bank.

I see you have no clue what Indian Companies were. These independent not state controlled (owner by share holders) companies got a trade monopoly for a certain time and place from the country. For the rest they may do what they liked.
Not government controlled.

Oh, has manorialism no meaning? Well, then how would you describe the European economy between 500 and 1000?

I am very surprised you hold Empire and Federal as two seperate things.
They are the same, only is Federal even more centralized. Actually Federal is just a modern name for Imperial structure.
That slightly higher centralization is just possible by technology.
Without it most countries can still be called imperial.

Hansa which language is that?
Ok, it's a trade alliance. But that changes nothing to my economy category.
BTW, it wasn't only northern German city. It extended to the Netherlands and some other parts.
The Hanze of 17 (with the biggest Northern German cities) was only the most important.

And the summary is approaching so if we don't agree on choices quick, I'll have to make a model on my own.
[This message has been edited by M@ni@c (edited August 14, 1999).]

Maniac · August 14, 1999, 19:46

He, your post is edited while I was writing ymy response. Looks some politer. Although now I've read the second part...

OK, Dictatorship is different from Monarchy.
But Diodorus is right that it can end in a Dynasty.
And really, the only difference between them is that a king is legitimate while a dictator not. For that small change you don't make a separate category, right?

Manorialism an evolution of fairs???
Manorialism + production. You really need to read something about the period 500 - 1000 and learn what economical conditions they were then.

Why that protectionist option? The first simply is Mercantilism.

Guilds are certainly not free market. All members were bound to heaps of rules.

Sure I'll let go of that Commonwealth.
Now the British Commonwealth can be seen as Colonial.

Maniac · August 14, 1999, 19:58

Isn't it possible that there is no evolution cause in new times the models sucked?
There simply is no evolution on Manorialism, cause that economy was superbad in reality.

Example of Nationalization cause that description really made me think of Russia, but you say it isn't 'people owned'.
I can't come up with an example right now.

Jon Miller · August 14, 1999, 20:35

Hi all

in the times of the roman republic senators could not be involved in trade or like things

this was so they could not abuse their power

they had merchants called knights that would act for them

this ended up changing

Jon Miller

Maniac · August 14, 1999, 21:14

Jon Miller :

That praefectus annonae was a state job.
So the senator that had the job wasn't using it's power for his own benefit.
He was using it for supplying Rome. He had no personal benefit out of it.
So even if that trade ruled still existed around Claudius, I'm sure they would make an exception for the wheat supplier.

Jon Miller · August 15, 1999, 15:10

hello all

I'm no longer crazy, just going to go on with my setup (one of the only four or three very different ones out there)

I will put it here because I don't think any body is going back to the thread I edited

ECONOMICS

the economics settings mostly just affect the national values and control like governments but they only affect the control of cities and they have more of there own modifiers than do the governments

it can be looked at that governments modify the national values to get a se modifier and national values modify economies to get a se modifier

for example, if the people are not very individuslistic, shown by how much they value individualism they will work well with communism

the system will be set up like this

in communism increased individualism means increased corruption and decreased happiness

in freemarket increased individualism means increased trade

in freemarket increased wealth means increased trade

in communism increased wealth means increased corruption and decreased happiness

in manorialism increased individualism means decreased happiness (they don't want to be serfs any more)

all the values modify the economics in like manner (in differing degrees)

economics are

(I have not finished writing on any of them)

communist (real communism if you can get it right)
has increased happiness (this can go away with the right values)

free market (real free market)
has some harsh happiness penalties (especially for those groups do not rule), also has increased trade and production increases

socialist (maybe you should be able to choose a slider that goes between socialism and free market)
similar to communism but does not hav as big a penalties for individualism and wealth also increases happiness

manorialism (the feudal system)
those groups that do not rule are unhappy over this

mercantilist (ala Japan last 50 years and colonial britain)

barter (early system)

merchant (I'm not sure about the right word but it is meant to represent early non manorial non barter systems where merchants and small scale craftsmen as did farmers but information did not flow fast enough to make it like modern freemarket and governments did have there hand in it)

this is really really reall incomplete
________________

my threads for my se is/will be

POPULACE
STRENGTH - HAPPINESS - VALUES (incomplete)

STRUCTURE (unfinished)
GOVERNMENT (unfinished)

ECONOMICS (unfinished)

CONTROL (the idea is my AI idea as stated earlier in this thread, I will clean it up and repost it)

REVOLUTION (some of this idea is found in POPULACE post, will add to it)

I am sure there were others I have forgotten but since the need for them will still be there I will at least end up making something similar

Jon Miller

Maniac · August 15, 1999, 17:22

Began to think about some choices and their effects.

Government

Absolute

1)Dictatorship : +2 Pol, -2 Hap

Dictatorship has two evolutions.

1.1) Dynasty/Monarchy : +2 Nat, +1 Pol, -2 Tax

Increased nationalistic feeling by a king to look up at, still a bit larger police and a lot of taxes go to the court (Diodorus' explanation).
eg : European monarchies

1.2) Despotism : +2 Pol, +1 Pro(duction), +1 Sen(ate), -1 Hap, -1 Corr

Harel doesn't want Monarchy to be the only option after Dictatorship. I think this suits well.
eg : Persian shah's

I don't know if I should include this one, but Harel seems to want something police state alike.
An evolution of Despotism

1.2.1) Military Junta : +1 Pol, +1 Sen

An evolution of Dynasty

1.1.1) Parliamentary Monarchy : +2 Corr, +2 Tax, -2 Mil, -1 Sen

Good effects?
A parliament allows less corruption in a large empire.
In the States-General extra money can be asked.
However since that States-General mostly isn't that eager for war -2 Mil and hates to support it.
And for the same reason -1 Sen.

I think the following option can be an evolution of both Dynasty and Despotism. If I had to choose between them it's Despotism.

Totalitarianism : +2 Pol, +2 Mil, +2 Sen, -2 Hap, -1 Corr

So, that's the Dictatorship branch.

Dictatorship -> Despotism -> Military Junta
. -> Totalitarianism
. -> Dynasty -> Parliamentary Monarchy

Representative

First base choice is

Tribal Assembly : +2 Hap, -2 Corr

+Hap because participating in politics gives them a happy feeling.
-Corr because this kind of government gets very ineffective when you have several cities.

The evolution of Tribal Assembly is Republic.

Republic : +2 Corr, +1/2 Pro, -2 Sen, -2 Mil

Since the Production/Centr factor is now less powerful, it could get a +2 bonus again.

Now there is a member of each city in the senate, means the Corr problem of Tribal Assembly is solved. This system even allows larger empires!
The senators tend to enrich themself and sometimes get the largest part of war loot. This was true in the case of Rome.
Again war difficult and more senate franchise.
Perhaps Republic and Parliamentary are too similar. Anyway they can't bother eachother cause they are available together only for a short time.

Democracy : +2 Corr, +2 Hap,(+1 Rel,) -2 Sen, -2 Mil, (-1 Pol)

Simple : democracy. Perhaps there's too little difference with Republic. Solution?
Perhaps +1 Relations and -1 Police?

True Democracy : +2 Corr, +2 Hap, +1 Eco, -2 Mil, -2 Mor, -1 Pol

Technology allows again that all people join the politics. Technology also allows better larger states. Means +2 Corr and +2 Hap.
Technology allows more trade and e-commerce.
Some -Mil reason. -2 Mor cause more decadent people and worse state security, Internet codes can be found.
-1 Pol?

So :

Tribal Assembly -> Republic -> Democracy -> True Democracy

Religious

First choice is

High Priestship : +2 Eva(ngelism), -2 Res

Impressive religions. High Priests have a lot of power. -2 Res cause suppression of free thinking.

Then the next evolution :

Theocracy : +2 Eva, +2 Tax, -2 Res

+2 Tax by donations and indulgences.

Next step :

Fundamentalism :

+2 Eva, +2 Nat, +1 Mor, -2 Res, -2 Rel

An idea of me in the Religion thread won't allow Fundamentalism to exist further as a Religion choice. + another benefit is that I have a modern evolution of Theocracy. Another problem solved.

So :

High Priestship -> Theocracy -> Fundamentalism

Means 3 great branches, but the Absolute one splits in two. Means you have always 4 choices.

What do you think of it?

Economy shall be for another time. Really difficult bussiness.
Structure is also a problem.
Other categories mostly the same. Will post them another time.

CormacMacArt · August 16, 1999, 11:53

Well, thank you all for responding to my post!

Westergaard · August 16, 1999, 14:35

I don't know how long civ III will go into the future, but what about future societies like in SMAC?

Whith this I mean other than the suggested markets of Utopia and Transnational and the Virtual Democracy government. Theese are indeed good ideas, but I mean something more like SMACs Cybernetic, Thought control, and Eudamonia. Something that is not excatly a government form or market type and which can only be done in a future society.

What if I discover advanced genetic engineering and want to make my civ into a totally genetic controlled society where everybody was engineered to be happy with his job (ie Brave New World)or where everybody was engineered to be a superhuman(ie the movie "Gattaca). Or if I wanted to turn the tasks of governing to AI computers? (ie SMACs cybernetic).

What if want to introduce the use of robots to do all the dirty jobs of society (ie manufacturing, service jobs, etc.) to leave humans to do more creative jobs? What about if I want to outlaw all of the major polluting industries and live in a totally green country, with a big bonus to happiness and ecology, but a major minus to production? (even tough I never played CtP this could sound too much like eco-fascists or whatever)

All of theese are just examples but I think that neither of them are very far-out (some more than other) and they could be reality within the timescale used in Civ II, and Civ III might run even longer in which case they certainly should be included.

Couldn't this be another of the SE categories, or would it result in a too crowded SE screen, with way too many SE choices? And much more importantly will Civ III even run that long? I don't know how long it'll go, but I think that at least we should have given future societies some thought, so that Brian and co. will know what we want in case the game has a future part.

will I · August 16, 1999, 15:44

Gosh, it seems every time I go away for a few days, the number of CE factors grows! I liked Harel's slimmer 10-factor list much better than the more recent 14-factor full version. Here are my ideas for compression, based on the M@ni@c 15-factor list.

Production -- I would eliminate the food bonus for production and make the productivity bonus apply both units and buildings. I would couple production with an increased pollution rate.

Urbanization -- I would also call this "growth," and pair it with the food function that I stripped out of "production" in the preceding paragraph. It would look something like this.
Growth:
+5 growth occurs with each seven rows of food, and an aqueduct is necessary at pop. 11.
+4 growth at eight rows of food, aqueduct necessary at pop. 10.
+3 growth at eight rows of food, aqueduct at 9
+2 growth at nine rows of food, aqueduct at 9
+1 growth at nine rows of food, aqueduct at 8
0 growth at ten rows, aqueduct at 8
-1 growth at ten rows, aqueduct at 7
-2 growth at 11 rows, aqueduct at 7
-3 growth at 11 rows, aqueduct at 6
-4 growth at 12 rows, aqueduct at 6
-5 growth at 12 rows, aqueduct at 5

Evangelism - eliminate as duplicative of the latest religions proposal, which handles all religious issues outside of SE. I think that once you see our proposal, you'll agree that making religion something independent of SE, which has affects across borders, would introduce a worthwhile and interesting new twist to the game.

Reconaissance should not affect emigration

Environment should be combined with Production

Taxes should be eliminated

Internal control should be eliminated as duplicative of the latest religions proposal.

Military industrial should be combined with production.

That would be an alternate way to pare the list down to ten items, which should be more manageable.

Maniac · August 16, 1999, 19:02

Will :

You don't realize how inaccurate and generalizing that 10 factors are. It's impossible to push it into ten factors as in SMAC, cause my factors affect much more than the few things SMAC did.

"Production -- I would eliminate the food bonus for production and make the productivity bonus apply both units and buildings. I would couple production with an increased pollution rate."

Your first suggestion and your first mistake.
+'s always have to be good and -'s always bad. And since Free Market should get an Environment penalty, it should also get a Production bonus. Which is not true.

"Urbanization -- I would also call this "growth," and pair it with the food function that I stripped out of "production" in the preceding paragraph. It would look something like this."

So now you're saying that increased pop growth automatically means more food? That people in Africa will be glad to hear it.

"Evangelism - eliminate as duplicative of the latest religions proposal, which handles all religious issues outside of SE. I think that once you see our proposal, you'll agree that making religion something independent of SE, which has affects across borders, would introduce a worthwhile and interesting new twist to the game."

Read my posts in the Religion thread carefully, Will. I already have eliminated the connections with the real SE.
And Evangelism isn't a duplicate. I said explicitly that State Religion only should have an Evangelism bonus IN your empire, just as you said. Same with Persecution.
And if Evangelism is deleted, how would you represent the Evangelism bonus of High Priestship - Theocracy - Fundamentalism?
BTW, I don't know anymore in which post, but you said that Fundamentalism should have an Evangelism bonus in the entire world and State Religion only in your own empire.
That is just what Fundamentalism and State Religion do! I don't know why you are against Evangelism. cause we agree actually.

"Reconaissance should not affect emigration"

Good news for you, it doesn't exist anymore.
And Nationalism does affect it. Agreed?

"Environment should be combined with Production"

You already said that and I already answered.

"Taxes should be eliminated"

Why? Cause you don't agree with my manner of giving tithes(which I represented with -2 Tax) to State Religion? And now you want to delete it completely? Taxes allow more precision. Instead of eg giving Dynasty and Socialism a -1 Eco (which makes that choices very bad) to represent the loss of taxes, you can give it -2 Tax which is more accurate AND balanced.

"Internal control should be eliminated as duplicative of the latest religions proposal."

Again the same problem. I don't like your tithes system and you try to delete Conviction cause it's a problem for your tithes idea. Deleting it would be very bad.

"Military industrial should be combined with production."

That means 4 previous factors in a new one! Support, Military Industry, Centralization and Environmentalism. Talking about balance... Perhaps (of course) there are unbalancing things in my system, but less than in what you are presenting.

"That would be an alternate way to pare the list down to ten items, which should be more manageable."

What do you have with the number ten? In the beginning of the post I said why you can't do that. More manageable? Oh damn, I seem to have a better memory than most people I know, but if you can't manage 15 things, then I don't see why 10 *should* be possible.

Maniac · August 16, 1999, 19:05

Value

Same old with some changes...

Knowledge : +2 Res, +1 Corr, -2 Mor

The new Morale(other name please) factor makes spying on Knowledge valued civs easier cause it affects the spy success rate. + High tech civs’ people become weaker and decadent.

Wealth : +1 Eco, +1 Pro, -1 Sen, -2 Hap

Rich class has something to say = -1 Sen. Poor people become unhappier = -2 Hap

Socialism : +2 Hap, +2 Urb, -2 Tax

Support for everyone in the society causes greater happiness = +2 Hap. Less death so bigger pop growth = +2 Urb, but support requires a lot money = -2 Tax.

Survival/Power : +2 Mil, +2 Mor, +2 Sen, -2 Pro

Survival and Power requires support and training for the army = +2 Mil, +2 Mor. In high need (=the will to survive) or just because the foreign politics is imperialist the senate will be more tolerable to allow war = +2 Sen. But civil production tends to fall behind, cause a lot of resources go to the army = -2 Pro.
I think Survival and Power have the same effects on society. But I don’t know what name to pick.
For small civs it is Survival and for large Power.

I think these choice are more balanced.
In a big war or in the beginning of the game Survival/Power is good and in peacetime there are 3 good options, each with one of the three (four) most important factors. Knowledge has Research, Wealth Economy and Socialism Happiness.

Research

Mostly the same --

Wise Men : no pos or neg
Natural : +2 Env, -1 Urb, +25% Economic Research
Humaniterian : +2 Hap, -1 Mor, +25% Social Research
Practical : +2 Mil, -1 Res, +25% Military Research
Exploring : +2 Res, -1 Hap, +25% Academic Research

Perhaps Natural shoulf get –1 Pro.
Earlier Humaniterian had +2 Cult(factor doesn’t exist anymore). That wasn’t a really good choice. Now it’s better.
Earlier some found Practical too weak. Now the Military factor is more important. Question : should I change the research bonus to +35% to keep up with the loss of research by –1 Res?

Religion

The Religion Category doesn’t exist anymore. Check out the Religion thread.

Economy, Structure, Army

To be continued…

Jon Miller · August 17, 1999, 04:07

hi all

I'm leaving for a while

the basics of my se structure are in this thread

control idea can be found earlier in the thread when I was talking about AI

I have government, populace, and economic sections

none of my ideas are complete but Bell should post them anyway (cause it should be easy to see what I was trying to do and BR could use that idea)

hopefully we will be able to refine our ideas after this next summarization

I'll be gone on my vaction until the 21st or 22nd

this should give me time to repost my ideas together

people are still not getting that technology does not make people think a way (and have certain modifiers), nor does government but rather the values of the people make them act a certain way (and have certain modifiers)

I kepp on hereing things like, once a certain tech comes arround all your people statr acting a certain way which people did arrpund that time for our history

a social historian would see however that while values sometimes defined what social tech was learned, social tech (nor physical tech) did not define the values of the people

you make this occur with your ideas of age of faith and democracy and countless other areas making us players in civ just replay world history, not make our own civ with the tools of humanity

but maybe I want a different game then you do

I will probably buy the game you want but I am bent on making it as perfect as possible and realistic and working so as not to force me into playing historical civs (no I do not want to play futuristic civs either, I just want it to be realistic in that I can try my own social theories (just ones that where discovered in regular earth history but maybe never implemented) on my people and depending on my peoples vaues some will work and some will not

the US's republic system would not (and is not in several areas of the world) work under certain values

the populace is the key

I also had some strange ideas in radical, in technology, and in combat

Jon Miller

Maniac · August 17, 1999, 10:03

Structure

I agree with Harel that structure choices don't evolve.

City State : no pos or neg

Starting option. Some people would say it has positives and negatives. I think those are covered under Government - Tribal Assembly and Economy - Autarcy.

Feudal : +2 Mil, +2 Tax, -2 Pro

Feudal is a structure choice, not an Economy choice. Perhaps I should give it -1 Production and -1 Urbanization/Growth.

Imperial/Federal : +2 Corr, +2 Nat, -2 Hap

Imperial and Federal have the same effects, just don't know which name to choose.
Imperial is the old name, Federal the modern one.

Confederate : +2 Hap, +2 Rel, -1 Corr, -1 Pro

I deleted Commonwealth cause that should be a diplomatic option.
Harel, Unity should give a considerable trade bonus.

Again 4 choices.

Army and Economy for later...

Maniac · August 17, 1999, 18:58

Will :

If I could do it with 10 factors I would, but -I've already said it- the factors affect more than the SMAC ones. And you too have to keep an eye on Accuracy (Acc). Generalizing and pushing it in too less factors gives a very negative rate.

About deleting Evangelism, how then can you represent Fundy?
And emigration is just one of the four uses of Nationalism. Deleting that can't shorten the # of factors.

Diodorus :

Deleting the Research category (do you mean that with universal research choices) is possible if you reintroduce Value - Environment to regain two +Env choices. Also to have 2 +Res things, you must have another +2 Res.
+2 Res for Religious Freedom?(see religion thread)

Perhaps solutions for if some category disappears should also be included in the very huge summary.

Research

If there's a Research category, Wise Men should have -2 Res to replace the -2 Res of the disappeared Religion - Animism.

Economy :

Don't know if you will like it. Everyone disagrees about Economy.

Barter : -2 Tax
->Currency : no pos or neg

Doesn't need an explanation anymore, I think.

Autarcy : +1 Pro, +2Rel??, -1 or 2 Corr
->Guilds : +2 Pro, +2 Rel, - 1 or 2 Eco
-->Communism : +3 Pro, +2 Nat, -2 Eco, (-1 Corr)
--->Utopia : +3 Pro, +2 Nat, +2 Env, -2 Eco, -2 Tax, -1 Corr

About Autarcy. The Greek City States were Autarcy, which means self supply. But they were also big traders (+2 Rel), not very Autarcy. How does this fit together? Diodorus, please fresh up my memory.
And about that -2 Corr. Autarcy works well for small nations, but not for big.
Prove : all the villages and cities between 500 and 1000 were Manorialism = every manor has it's own autarcy.
And I know that Communism isn't really the evolution of Guilds, but they both share the +2 Pro and they both share socialist ideology.
Which reminds me I have to say to Harel and Jon Miller that the Happiness bonus that you give to Communism, I gave to Value - Socialism. It fits better there, I think.
Oh, Bell, don't forget to mention in the summary that Utopia is a no-money-society.

Mercantilism : +1 Eco, +2 Urb, -1 Sen, -2 Rel
->Colonial : +1 Eco, +2 Urb, +1/2 Pro (or +2 Tax), -2 Rel, -2 Nat

I don't know if that +2 Urb fits for Colonial.
And with 1/2 I don't mean a half, but 1 or 2.

Capitalism : +2 Eco, -3 Pol, -2 Mil
->Free Market : +2 Eco, +2 Corr, -5 Pol, -3 Env
-->Transnational : +3 Eco, +2 Corr, +2 Pro, -8 Pol, -3 Env, -2 Mor

I just renamed Banking to Capitalism and changed the Support penalty to Military cause Mil and Sup are melted together.
About Transnational. All the other Economy choices have already a big or small +Pro.
So another is too much, I think.
Perhaps change it too
-->Transnational : +3 Eco, +2 Corr, -8 Pol, -3 Env ?

Army

Sorry, I really need help for this one. (or otherwise said :"Where is Harel when you need him?")

So far I think...

Militia : no pos or neg

Mercenary : +?, -2 Tax
Military Caste : ?
Both evolve in...
->Professional : +2 Hap, +2 Mor, -2 Mil

Levee in Mass : +?, -2 Pro
Evolves in two choices...
->Draft : +?, -2 Hap
->Conscription : +?, -2 Mor

Can't really think of any difference what Military Castes have on a society. Diodorus, you suggested it...

The -2 Pro is for the people/farmers having to leave for war and leave behind there fields. Loss of production.
In the Roman example, the senators bought the ground from the farmers-legionnaires and got latifundia (another reason for giving Republic +2 Pro?). The ex-farmers went to Rome to join the proletariat.

After the Army category is determined, we can begin to pinpoint the many faults in my new ideas.

Diodorus Sicilus · August 18, 1999, 00:03

M@ni@c: No detailed commentary here, just wanted to say that I like the way your combination Harel's et al system is shaping up - good synthesis of ideas from all corners.
My only quibble is that I'd rather not see 'universal' Research choices. My preference (and that's all it is, by the way) is to let you choose a General Category for Emphasis but have the modifiers depend on Infrastructure (universities, Think Tanks, Libraries, etc) and the conditions of your civilization.
For instance, Ship Building Advance (actually, in my Tech system, an Application of Exploration/Expand) would have a + factor if the civ researching it has 50% of more cities that are ports, and would not be researchable at all if you had no port cities.
That's an easy example, and I'll be posting over in Technology Thread a set of early techs and the +/- factors for research based on civ conditions.
As I said, just an opinion: I think the game will work either way, I think my system will be harder to implement and playtest, but can lead to an option for much more historical games when coupled with Historical Starting Terrain Positions option at Start Up.

will I · August 18, 1999, 00:17

M@ni@c:

I could certainly keep track of the 15 SE factors you have proposed. Would it be fun? It would probably be okay, but substantially less fun than with a little less complexity. To express it in the terms of this complaint greater control over SE factors increases fun, but only up to a point. Afterward, with more complexity, we start getting +1, +2, and +3 annoyance (Ann). And, as we know, the more the annoyance, the fewer the buyers. I think your system goes way beyond that threshold. Ten is not a magic number, but a level of complexity at around that point seems to work for SMAC, which is why I've been harping on it. And ten is not de facto imbalanced, just as 15 factors is not de facto balanced. It's all in how you use the factors. Having seen your efforts to date, I have no doubt that you could derive a balanced system using 10 factors.

I also apologize for merely critiquing and not offering a grand alternative. But I must balance my participation here against work and family, and do not have time to do more than offer suggestions on how I might improve the existing proposals. I hope someone is listening. There's a lot in these proposals that's good, and they can still be saved.

will I · August 18, 1999, 00:20

M@ni@c:

I could certainly keep track of the 15 SE factors you have proposed. Would it be fun? It would probably be okay, but substantially less fun than with a little less complexity. To express it in the terms of this complaint greater control over SE factors increases fun, but only up to a point. Afterward, with more complexity, we start getting +1, +2, and +3 annoyance (Ann). And, as we know, the more the annoyance, the fewer the buyers. I think your system goes way beyond that threshold. Ten is not a magic number, but a level of complexity at around that point seems to work for SMAC, which is why I've been harping on it. And ten is not de facto imbalanced, just as 15 factors is not de facto balanced. It's all in how you use the factors. Having seen your efforts to date, I have no doubt that you could derive a balanced system using 10 factors.

I also apologize for merely critiquing and not offering a grand alternative. But I must balance my participation here against work and family, and do not have time to do more than offer suggestions on how I might improve the existing proposals. You can either hive off functions to other screens (as I propose to do with the religious factors), eliminate functions (as I propose to do with emigration), or combine them. But I, as a fairly sophisticated, long-time devotee of these games, think that the 15-factor system is just too darn much. I hope someone heeds this call, because there's a lot in these proposals that is good, and it will probably get lost in the verbiage.

Harel · August 18, 1999, 14:55

Since we are all going to propose our finished models soon enough, I will post my own idea. This will include the modifactors I would like to use and the SE options but no numbers just yet.
I would like to have input so I could prefect the finished model.
I am not going to explain my options now. In my summed up post ( which will be very big ), I will explain every reasoning of my SE options.
You will have my model by Sat Bell.

modifators

1. Police: rename to order.

2. Militarial:
<list>[*]Increase speed of military unit production.[*]Reduce cost of support.[*]Reduce cost of spy attacks.
</lists>

3. Harmony: how well your people act like a single group.
<list>[*]Reduce revoultion when changing SE.[*]Increase cost of bribing your cities.[*]Reduce senate intervension.
</list>

4. Happiness:
<list>[*]Increase amount of happy people.[*]Reduce amount of drones.[*]Decide the speed of caputred cities assimilation.
</list>

5. Beucracy: like corruption.

6. Production: increase the speed of civilain consturction ( no food ).

6. Enviroment:
<list>[*]Reduce pollution levels.[*]Increase speed of cleaning pollution.[*]Increase food output from food tiles.[*]Increase regenration speed of forsets.
</list>

7. Growth:
<list>[*]Decide the speed in which your popultion grows.[*]Increase your max popultion amount.
</list>

8. Exprience:
<list>[*]Raise the starting exp. level of military units.[*]Give attack bonus.[*]Increase spys and units morale.[*]Increase the chance of spy attacks.
</list>

9. Loyality:
<list>[*]Reduce amigartion.[*]Makes enemy espionage/sabotage harder.[*]Increase conversion defence.[*]Less damage from atrocities.
</list>

10. Taxes: increase the amount of tax you get without increasing unhappiness.

11. Economy.

12. Relations:
<list>[*]Increase the diplomatic relations between states.[*]Get a +% chance to get what you want from alien nations.[*]Get a commerce bonus to trade routes.
</list>

13. Research

A number concept: comments maniac?

Their are several options that the prehistoric conterpart is very similar to the futuristic conterpart.
For example, a tribal assembly should give the same bonuses as true democracy, which is in essense just tribal assembly with good technology.
What if I would give them both +2 Hap, +2 Harmony ( big bonus from the start ), but give tribal aseembly -4 beucracy ( can't spread far ) and true democracy will be much more effiecent?

Solution to small civ and rate of SE change

Will all agreed that small civ can change thier nation quicker since they can better shape the people.
Well, here is a though:
I used a new modficator, called "harmony" in my options. The level of harmony decide how many turns it take you to switch SE options ( by the current level, ofcoruse ).
I think that I want to limit small nation bonus by simply giving small nations a small +harmony and big nations a small -harmony.
Very logical, as smaller nations are better conntected and got a better filling of "oneness" then bigger ones.

goverments

Depotism ( prehistoric )
->Military junta ( roman? )
-->Police state ( futuristic )
Strict monarchy/Empireship ( ancient )
->Monarchy ( middle-ages )
-->Parlimental monarchy ( modern )
Dictatorship ( roman )
->Totalatarism ( modern )
Tribal assembly ( prehistoric )
->Republic ( roman )
-->Democracy ( industrial )
--->True democracy ( futuristic )
Peppa ( rule of the pope, single religous person. Prehistoric )
->Theocracy ( middle-ages )
-->Fundemntalism ( modern )

Markets

Barter ( prehistoric )
->Currency ( ancient )
-->Stock exchange ( reniesanse )
Autarcial ( prehistoric )
->Fairs ( ancient )
-->Manorilism ( middle ages )
--->Planned ( explantion later, futuristic )
Protectionism ( middle ages )
->Mercantlism ( early-reniesanse )
-->Colonial ( late-reniesanse )
--->Nationalazation ( modern )
Guilds ( middle ages )
->Banking ( reniesanse )
-->Free market ( industrial )
--->Transnational ( modern )
Socialism ( prehistoric )
->Labor union ( industrial )
-->Communism ( modern )
--->Utopia ( futuristic )

Structure

Slider bar/options.

City state <-> Confedartion <-> Empire <-> federal

Army

Basic

City militia ( prehistoric )
->Volunteer ( middle ages )
-->Civil duty ( modern )
Levee in mass ( prehistoric )
->Drafts ( middle ages )
-->Conscription ( industrial )
Mercenary ( ancient )
->Military caste ( roman )
-->Trained ( modern )

Religon

Traditional ( basic )
Strict ( +morale, - research )
Freedom ( +harmony, -order )
Intolerance ( +order, -happiness )
Athiesm ( +research, -harmony )

Values

Passive, power, knowladge, wealth, wealthfare.

Research

Wise-man, naturalist, philosphic, academic, pratical
[This message has been edited by Harel (edited August 19, 1999).]

Maniac · August 18, 1999, 16:10

Harel :

I agree that Tribal Assembly should have a corruption penalty and True Democracy a bonus. Just as in my new model... Have you read it?

And if there will be something like harmony decide how many turns it take you to switch SE options I think I would put it under Senate.

BTW Military Junta Roman????

Could you help me with my Army choices?
Could perhaps post your Army category now and not Saturday?
BTW draft is still used today. Or do you mean Civil Duty with that?

Have you read the Religion thread recently? We're building a marvellous religion model. And there won't be place for a Religion category.

Maniac · August 18, 1999, 18:42

I’ll post my incomplete model too…

Government

Control

Dictatorship : +2 Pol, -2 Hap
->Dynasty : +2 Nat, +1 Pol, -2 Tax
Parliamentary Monarchy : +2 Corr, +2 Tax, -2 Mil, -1 Sen
->Despotism : +2 Pol, +1 Pro, +1 Sen, -1 Hap, -1 Corr
Military Junta : +1 Pol, +1 Sen
Totalitarianism : +2 Pol, +2 Mil, +2 Sen, -2 Hap, -1 Corr

Representative

Tribal Assembly : +2 Hap, -2 Corr
->Republic : +2 Corr, +2 Pro, -2 Sen, -2 Mil
Democracy : +2 Corr, +2 Hap, +1 Rel, -2 Sen, -2 Mil
-True Democracy : +2 Corr, +2 Hap, +1 Eco, -2 Mil, -2 Sen, -1 Pol

Religious

High Priestship : +2 Eva, -2 Res
->Theocracy : +2 Eva, +2 Tax, -2 Res
Fundamentalism : +2 Eva, +2 Nat, +1 Exp, -2 Res, -2 Rel

Economy

Simple

Barter : -2 Tax
->Currency : no pos or neg

Planned/Social

Autarcy : +1 Pro, +2Rel, -2 Corr
->Guilds : +2 Pro, +2 Rel, - 2 Eco
-->Communism : +3 Pro, +2 Nat, -2 Eco, -1 Corr
--->Utopia : +3 Pro, +2 Nat, +2 Env, -2 Eco, -2 Tax, -1 Corr

Colonial

Mercantilism : +1 Eco, +2 Urb, -1 Sen, -2 Rel
->Colonial : +1 Eco, +2 Urb, +1 Pro, -2 Rel, -2 Nat

Free Trade

Capitalism : +2 Eco, -3 Pol, -2 Mil
->Free Market : +2 Eco, +2 Corr, -5 Pol, -3 Env
-->Transnational : +3 Eco, +2 Corr, -8 Pol, -3 Env, -1 Sen

Structure

City State : no pos or neg
Feudal : +2 Mil, +2 Tax, -2 Pro
Imperial/Federal : +2 Corr, +2 Nat, -2 Hap
Confederate : +2 Hap, +2 Rel, -1 Nat, -1 Pro

Value

Knowledge : +2 Res, +1 Corr, -2 Exp
Wealth : +1 Eco, +1 Pro, -1 Sen, -2 Hap
Socialism : +2 Hap, +2 Urb, -2 Tax
Survival/Power : +2 Mil, +2 Exp, +2 Sen, -2 Pro

Research

Wise Men : -2 Res
Natural : +2 Env, -1 Urb, +25% Economic Research
Humaniterian : +2 Hap, -1 Exp, +25% Social Research
Practical : +2 Mil, -1 Res, +25% Military Research
Exploring : +2 Res, -1 Hap, +25% Academic Research

Army

Militia : no pos or neg

Mercenary : +?, -2 Tax}
Military Caste : ?}
}->Professional : +2 Hap, +2 Exp, -2 Mil

Levee in Mass : +?, -2 Pro
->Draft : +?, -2 Hap
->Conscription : +?, -2 Exp

Maxima and Minima without Army

Police : +2/4(*see Religion thread), -9
Military : +8, -4
Nationalism : +6, -3
Happiness : +8/10*, -7
Evangelism : +2, -0
Experience : +3, -3
Urbanization : +4, -1
Production : +6, -4
Environmentalism : +4, -3
Research : +4/5*, -2
Taxes : +4, -6/8*
Economy : +5, -2
Relations : +5, -4
Bureaucracy(Corr) : +7, -4
Senate : +4, -4

I detect some problems… Taxes, Urbanization, Evangelism.
Delete Evangelism after all?

Then it could be

High Priestship : +2 Nat/Tax, -2 Res
->Theocracy : +2 Nat, +2 Tax, -2 Res
 Fundamentalism : +2 Nat, +2 Urb, +1 Mor, -2 Res, -2 Rel

And about too many Tax and too little Urb minuses.

Colonial : +1 Eco, +2 Tax, +1/2 Pro, -2 Urb, -1 Rel, -1 Nat

But then there could be too little Nat’s.

Give Mercenary –1 Tax, -1 Nat?

Harel · August 19, 1999, 13:38

Exactly they DONT use drafts today: they use conscription.

My army section ( btw Maniac, I AM going to keep my market options as they are. I just hope my reasoning will be explain on my detail post.

+1 Mil: +1 Support, +5% to military production. So, +4 Mil is like +2 Military industry, and not a big bonus.

army

Basic: +0/-0

Small-standing army: increase harmony and happiness

City militia: +2 Mil, -2 Exp
->Volunteer: +1 Mil, +2 Hrm, -1 Exp, -1 Ord
-->Civil duty: +2 Hrm, +2 Hap, -2 Ord

Large standing army

Levee in mass: +4 Mil, -3 Exp, -2 Hap
->Drafts: +3 Mil, -2 Exp, -1 Hap
-->Conscription: +2 Mil, -1 Exp

Mercenary: +2 Exp, -2 Loy, -1 Mil
->Military caste: +2 Exp, -1 Mil, -1 Hrm
-->Trained: +3 Exp, -2 Mil

Harel · August 19, 1999, 13:39

Double post
[This message has been edited by Harel (edited August 19, 1999).]

Maniac · August 19, 1999, 14:54

Harel, I had asked it already, but you didn't answer. What's Civil Duty? Explanation, examples... Switzerland?

And is Military Caste an evolution of Mercenary??

I think I'll take over your Levee and Mercenary choices.

And BTW, if you've got your detailed post finished before Saturday, post it.
I would like to know your reasons.

Question. Banking (+2 Eco?) only seems possible from the Renaissance. How then are you supposed to get +2 Eco early in the game?

My Military
+1 Mil : +1 Sup, +1 Mil (+10%, not 5%)