COMBAT v3.0 (hosted by Theben)

[loinburger]

This is the summary for Combat 2.0 and preceding Combat threads.
Contributors: Francis, Mr. Bigglesworth, Eggman, Diodorus Sicilus, Ember, Darkstarr, Mo, Flavor Dave, AXM, NotLikeTea, Theben, Mingko, Redleg, Cybershy, Goob, Frank Johnson, Shining1, delcuze2, Trachmyr, don Don, Mhistbuff, Warspite, Ecce Homo, VaderTwo, Jon Miller, Sieve Too, Bell, feanor, Pythagoras, Black Dragon, Pathless1, Ove, Jimmy, Picker, Alexander’s Horse, korn469, Hans2, FinnishGuy, Agent 000, Jakester, E, Miner, Knight_Errant, Victor Galis, Depp, Icedan, technophile, Snowfire, Iceman88888888, Westergaard, marc420, raingoon, M@ni@c, SWPIGWANG

This is the summary of the COMBAT threads v1.2-v2.0. There is quite a bit of overlap between COMBAT and UNITS—I should know, I did them both (>cringe<), and there is also a good amount of overlap into the MOVEMENT AND SUPPLY thread. There is additional overlap among the RADICAL and MISCELLANEOUS threads, and I’m sure there’s some COMBAT scattered elsewhere, I’m just not certain where that may be.

There were several complete combat systems proposed by posters (including the TM himself), and so I have New Combat Systems its own section and have kept each new combat system complete as a tribute to their respective authors. Besides that I have divided up the summary as I have seen fit, and have given explanations as to what the specific sections contain where I felt it necessary.

1. New Combat Systems

1.1. LASS (Land, Air, Sea, Space):
The primary intention of this combat system was to address two aspects of the ATT/DEF system—one, why doesn’t the attacker’s DEF or the defender’s ATT affect the outcome of the battle? and two, how can a Legion destroy, let alone damage, a Bomber? The heart and soul of LASS is that each unit is given 4 stats (land, air, sea, space), and these stats detail both the attack AND the defense of the unit against enemy units from the domain in question. For instance, a unit with LASS of 1/2/3/4 being attacked from the air would use “2” as its defense, and if that same unit attacked the sea it would use “3” as its attack. Note, however, that having a stat in a particular domain does not necessarily mean that the unit can attack that domain.

1.1.1. The Design Workshop: (note that there is a LOT of overlap between this and UNITS, but like I said, I’m keeping the combat systems intact. For a complete listing of unit chassises, options, ideas, etc., go to the UNITS thread)
The unit design workshop would look as follows:
L/A/S/S running down the left side,
The unit picture in the middle,
Hit Points, Firepower, Range, and Movement on the middle right side,
All unit OPTIONS on the far right (a unit can have unlimited options)
--You should be able to change a unit’s chassis without having to transfer to a separate chassis screen. This is to help slower computers and speed up customization.

1.1.2. Unit Chassises:
Land: Infantry, Mounted, Motorized, Mechanized;
Sea: Wooden Hull, Iron Hull, Steel Hull;
Air: Plane, Airship, Helicopter, Missile;
Space: Satellite, Spacecraft;

1.1.3. Unit Options:
I know, I know, I said I’d keep the combat systems intact. I lied. Go to the Units thread in the Special Abilities sections, especially Land, for detailed descriptions of any unit options used below.

1.1.4. Range:
The attacker, who initially controls the terms of engagement, gains +10% to its strength in the appropriate domain.
Two possibilities for how range can be used:
a. Absolute Value of (attacker’s range-defender’s range) = the bonus given to the unit with the greater range.
b. Absolute Value of (attacker’s range-defender’s range) = the number of free attacks given to the unit with the greater range.
Theben prefers choice “a”, as “b” assumes that the unit with the lower range will charge blindly into battle even though this is not always the case.

1.1.5. Stacking: (credit given to Diodorus Sicilus) Note: Also see UNITS sect. 1.2 Commanding Units
a. Command and Control: at beginning there are 4 units max in a stack without strength penalties and by game’s end, with the advent of communications and organizational technology, there can be up to 30 units in a stack without strength penalties. After the max is exceeded each successive unit suffers a severe “to-hit” penalty.
b. Terrain: Some terrain makes it more difficult to keep control of an army. The following numbers are the modifiers used to determine the maximum number of unpenalized units in a stack in certain terrain types.
Grassland, Plains, Tundra = 100%
Desert = 75%
Hills, Swamp, Jungle = 50%
Mountains w/Pass = 25%
Mountains, Glacier = 20%
Roads increase terrain up one category to a maximum of 100%
Forts, keeps, and castles have a maximum number of units allowed inside. City walls can contain an unlimited number of units.

1.1.6. Combat Resolution:
a. Close Combat: Compares the 2 units’ domain STR’s vs. each other. Close combat can only be done by units operating in the same domain.
b. Ranged units may attack as artillery if they have a wall or friendly units screening them from the enemy. You may not fire into a melee in which your own troops have already been engaged. When used as ranged units Artillery use their Range as their STR, and can only be countered by other artillery.
c. Units attacking another domain always attack as artillery but use their LASS factors for comparison.

1.1.7. Misc. LASS:
a. Units from other squares can be included in a combat. Click on the other squares before launching into battle.
b. After tech advance Combined Arms, units can use their special abilities to cover weaknesses of 2 other units: FE, helicopters may give their bonus vs. tanks to 2 other units in a stack.
c. After combat, units of the same type which have been sufficiently damaged will combine to form one unit. FE, 2 units with 20 HP’s each have each taken 10 damage. After combat they will combine to form 1 20HP unit.
d. If air or sea units are the only units remaining in a city when attacked by ground forces, they bombard for 1 round and then must evacuate. They have a %chance of escape—air units which escape are put in the nearest friendly city, while ships that escape are moved a few squares away. Some of these air or sea units may be captured.

1.2. CLAS-D (Close/Land/Air/Sea/Defense): A modification on LASS

1.2.1. Close is for non-ranged, within domain fighting. Example, two legions fighting.

1.2.2. LAS (Land/Air/Sea) is for ranged combat against the domain in question. All air combat is considered ranged.

1.2.3. Defense is the amount that the opponent’s combat rating is reduced. This will make certain modern units invulnerable to attack from ancient units (tank vs. phalanx).

1.2.4. The Combat Algorithms:
Each round a randomly generated number between 1 and 100 is chosen for each combatant. If it is equal to or less than their modified combat rating, the other unit takes combat damage equal to their FP. Close combat is always to the death. Ranged combat runs until the attacker loses a certain % of its pre-attack HP.

1.2.5. Initiative:
Attackers will usually get a bonus due to initiative, but terrain may reduce this bonus down to zero.

Infantry gain +25%, +50% vs. cities and forts.
Mobile units gain +50%.
River, hill, forest, etc. take away –25%.
Mountains, glaciers, etc. take away –50%.
Fortification gives +50%.

1.2.6. Stacking:
The main attacker is the unit used to launch an attack, and the main defender is the one with the highest combat rating (or the one pre-designated as the main defender). If the main unit is an infantry type the auxillary unit is a mobile type, and vice-versa if the main unit is mobile. For naval combat most ships qualify as both. The ranged unit on each side is the one with the best applicable LAS rating. The attacker initiates combat and uses 1 MP. The auxillary unit adds x0.5 times its close rating to the main unit. Every 4th turn the damage taken goes to the auxillary unit instead of the main unit. The ranged unit makes an attack every 3rd round. The auxillary and ranged units use 1/3 of an MP.

1.2.7. Bombardment:
Just because a unit has the L/A/S rating doesn’t mean it can attack a domain. For example, cannon can only attack land, even though they have a high S rating—this is because if a ship attack a land square with a cannon, the cannon can fire back once the ship is in range. Bombards can damage terrain and city improvements, but with little accuracy (you don’t know what’s going to be damaged) until later techs allow for greater accuracy. Air attack is considered bombardment--an airplane never leaves a city, it just extends an "area of effect" around it. Bombardment lasts for a number of rounds proportional to the health of the attacker, since damaged artillery cause less damage than healthy artillery.

1.2.8. Raids:
Raids are similar to bombards, except they are conducted by mobile units using their C (close) rating.

1.2.9. Defense:
Dragoons, riflemen, ships of the line are the first units to receive any defense rating (1-2). Mech inf., Cruisers, Carriers, Marines, Stealths have a medium amount (2-3)
Tanks, Battleships, Subs, Advanced Stealths have the most (3-5).
Defense results in an automatic reduction in %chance to hit on the part of the attacker.

1.2.10. Air Combat:
All air units have 1 MP, and can use this to launch an assault, assist in 2-3 ground/naval assaults within their range, redeploy (move to a new city), or intercept an incoming assault (this last only requires a fraction of a MP to remain, so conceivably a unit can assault and defend on the same turn). Air units never leave their base, they act as extremely long ranged artillery and have an area of effect roughly equal to half of their range (move points).

1.2.11. Helicopters:
These take x2 damage in air combat, can transport 1 infantry unit into battle, can act as a ranged unit, and can spot subs (%chance variable with tech and range from sub).

1.2.12. Penalties to Air Attacks:
-25% for hills, forests, etc.
-50% for mountains, etc.
Additional -25% if unit is infantry (bombers attacking infantry on a mountain would receive –75% to the amount of damage they could deal).
Spies cannot be directly attacked by ranged combat.

1.2.13. Misc.:
Buildings have HP and are damaged by combat.
Repairs cost money for both units and buildings. Units cannot be repaired in enemy territory.
Population can be bombarded, each pop point has 10-20 HP.

2.0. Unit Modifiers
Not everybody was calling for a brand new combat system; some were content with simply adding a few modifiers to the existing system in order to simulate more complexity, realism, and enjoyment (actually, some favored doing nothing to the combat system, and I make note of their wish here on the wish-list. “Do Nothing To Combat.” There, it’s been said.)
Here is a list of the additional combat modifiers some posters were calling for in Civ III. Unlike the completely revamped combat systems described above, these ideas were for the most part completely separate and individual, and so many of them are exclusionary to one another. Be forewarned.

2.1. Recon/Scouting:
Ability of a unit to make out an enemy’s size/composition. Also modifies the site range of unit.

2.2. Bombardment Range:
For Strategic Combat: The number of squares distant that a unit can fire upon. The current restrictions to having only “Range 1-2” units, units which can only bombard 1-2 squares away, is far too limiting. Modern naval units can bombard several squares away, as can some modern artillery.
For Tactical Combat (see below): The number of squares down the battle board that the unit can fire.
Range not only determines maximum range, but also effectiveness of firing at any range. For example, a unit with range 5 firing 1 square away is more accurate than a unit with range 1 firing 1 square away.

2.3. Firing Range:
Allows free attacks and/or an attack bonus to be given to the side with the greater Firing Range. For example, a Machine Gun Next (FR 6) fighting a Phalanx (FR 1) would receive either 6 free attacks or a +60% (arbitrary number) attack bonus. Another Possibility: Have 3 arbitrary settings—melee, short, long, with the settings determining position on the battlefield.

2.4. Morale:
Morale should be replaced by Experience.

2.5. Rate of Fire:
Number of attacks per turn. Makes the free turns you accumulate from Firing Range really add up.

2.6. Accuracy:
The chance that an attack made will land. FP would determine the damage caused.

2.7. Evade/Retreat:
Chance a defender has of evading an attack. Also measures a unit’s ability to retreat (low Evade results in heavy losses when the unit retreats, as it has been routed and the units scatter every which way, and sometimes units fail to retreat altogether).

2.8. Maneuverability:
Might warrant its own stat, might be best left as part of MP. Determines how well the unit can maneuver around the battlefield. Gives a bonus to the side with greater maneuverability. Additional MP’s can be spend in order to increase Maneuverability for a battle—this would be to simulate moving into position before the battle actually took place. For example, if an infantry unit were attacking a cavalry unit, the cavalry unit would ordinarily have a greater Maneuverability due to its increased MP’s. However, the infantry could spend an additional MP (i.e. wait a turn and delay the attack) in order to move into a position of greater maneuverability and negate the maneuverability bonus of the Cavalry. A unit would only have so much Maneuverability to “spend”, which means that a unit which is repeatedly attacked will begin to suffer defense penalties (actually, the attackers will receive attack bonuses) because the defender is becoming outmaneuvered.

3. Unit Orders
This bleeds over into the “should combat be tactical or strategic” argument, which is detailed below. Some posters are in favor of being able to issue orders to their units above and beyond the present range of “fortify, sentry, pillage” by adding such orders as “blitz, siege”, and others. Some of these posters were hoping to bridge the gap between tactical and strategic combat by allowing players to issue orders so that their units would fight better, possibly with the option of viewing the combat. Other posters, particularly those who gave suggestions for “air unit orders” (i.e. bombers and fighters) were just hoping to make the game more enjoyable by fixing what many view as a flaw (the fact that bombers cannot attack and return on the same turn).
An additional note—if Commanding Units and/or Famous Generals are used (see Units 1.1 and 1.2), then these commanders could be given special abilities in certain types of warfare, meaning that General Bob might give a bonus for a Blitzing army but not a Besieging army.

3.1. Land Unit Orders:
Some of the orders below speak of “supply loss.” This belongs more to the “Movement and Supply” thread, but some posters have suggested that units have a supply bar in addition to their health bar, with low supplies translating into poor combat stats. The numbers used in some Unit Orders below are assuming that each unit has 100 supplies when full.

3.1.1. Besiege:
This is to augment combat in the mid-game. Your units surround an enemy city with their ZOC. Issuing the actual “siege” command would reduce trade, food, and shields going into that city, but would also make the units laying siege require more supplies. A siege is useless unless you have enough units placed around the city, the number being proportional to the population of the city. The more units you add after this critical number is reached, the fewer supplies go in, until soon the city is starving. When this occurs there is a %chance each turn, based on SE choices, city improvements, cultural differences, level at which city is defended, and happiness of city population that the city will surrender and join your Civ. When you capture the city after a siege, there is a high probability that the city will be Plundered (see 3.4 below) by your troops, the probability based on whether a leader is present, the experience level of the troops, how well they have been supplied, and how long the siege has lasted. Some suggest that a siege require a siege weapon (catapult, etc.), although usually a siege means that the city is not being attacked but starved out and a catapult would not be used. Sieges would count as a minor atrocity. City can be supplied by air or sea if sea blockade is not set up and if AA mechanisms are not in place (or cannot be used).

3.1.2. Concealment:
Especially useful if every unit has a base Concealment value and if Camouflage is a special option in the Units workshop. Shift + C would order the unit to conceal (denoted by a small ‘c’ in the upper left hand corner of the unit box), which would reduce its movement by 50% (usually—there are exceptions to this, like alpine troops in mountains) and its chance to conceal by 25% or 50%. Concealed units are difficult to detect, like subs, and gain +50% to ATT when launching an attack out of concealment. Due to the movement restrictions, however, this order would be issued more for safety and surprise than for the ATT bonus, which only lasts for one combat round anyway. Some units have base concealment PEANALTIES, so issuing a concealment order would effectively give them a 0% chance of concealing. Also, concealing multiple units in a square increases the chances that they will be detected (example: 1 unit, 50% chance of detection; 2 units, 90% chance of detection; 3 units, 98% chance of detection; etc.).

3.1.3. Scouting:
Especially useful if every unit has a base Scouting/Recon value and if Scouting is a special option in the Units workshop. Shift + S would order the unit to scout (denoted by a small ‘s’ in the upper right hand corner of the unit box) and reduces the unit’s movement by 50% (if scouting and concealment are both issued the unit moves at 25% MP) and increases the unit’s scouting value also. Scouting increases the unit’s ability to detect ambushes and other concealed units, and also can increase the line of sight of a unit.
The boardgame Flattop had “scouting levels” which could be adapted to Civ III. The better the scouting ability of a unit, the higher the level of scouting performed.
Lvl. 1: Something is there, but you don’t know what or how many.
Lvl. 2: You are given a number between ½ and 2x the actual number of enemy units in the square.
Lvl. 3: You are given a more accurate reading on the number of units, and you have identified some of them.
Lvl. 4: You have all information on stacks in that square.

3.1.4. Fortify:
Fortifying is what you do when you’re in for the long haul, and requires construction in order to be performed. ‘F’ issues the Fortify command, at which the following occurs—
a. The unit’s ATT and DEF are reduced by 50% for the next two turns…
b. After the two turns are up, the unit’s DEF is SIGNIFICANTLY increased (if there is a fortress in the square and the terrain is fit for defense, the unit’s DEF may increase several times over)…
c. The unit cannot attack while fortified. When the Fortify command is broken, the unit cannot attack until the following turn, but the unit loses its DEF bonuses the same turn that it breaks the command.
d. Fortified armies will never retreat, because they usually can’t.
Fortified armies get additional bonuses when Engineering and Modern Warfare are discovered. A fortified unit gains +50% to Scouting but cannot conceal. Fortified units require 5 supplies per turn and 5 per attack.

3.1.5. Hold:
This is like the present Fortify command—you issue this when you know you’re about to get attacked (or highly suspect it) and want your unit to get prepared for combat (putting up makeshift breastworks and such). ‘H’ issues the Hold order, which increases DEF but also gives a unit –50% to ATT. Holding units are less likely to break and be routed. A holding unit gains +25% to Scouting but cannot conceal. Holding units require 5 supplies per turn, 10 per battle.

3.1.6. Delay:
For when you know you’re going to die before the fight even begins, but want to slow down the attacker. ‘D’ issues the Delay order, which causes units to gain a bonus to DEF and a penalty to ATT (although the bonus is not as large as for Holding units, and a Delaying unit receives only half of the benefits of a Fortress), and also gain a +75% bonus to their Retreat ability (or their chances to retreat). A Delaying unit that retreats will still be Delaying in the new tile that it occupies. For every 10% of its health that it loses, a Delaying unit loses 5% from its ability to retreat. If a Delaying unit fails to retreat it’s DEF bonuses are cancelled and it is given –50% to DEF, which effectively kills the unit. Delaying units require 5 supplies per turn, 10 per battle, 30 per retreat.

3.1.7. Ambush:
An Ambushing unit is one that conceals itself in a tile and hits the enemy hard and fast, doing as much damage as possible before retreating (or finishing the job if it can). ‘A’ issues the Ambush order, which increases the unit’s Concealment by 75% and its Retreat by 50%. When an enemy unit enters the Ambushed square, if the Ambush has not been detected, then the Ambushing unit(s) gain a massive DEF bonus and are no longer concealed (although Ambushing units cannot make use of Fortresses). If, however, the Ambush has been detected, then the Ambushing unit loses its Retreat bonus and is given a –50% penalty to DEF. Ambushers require 10 supplies per turn while waiting (the supplies must be moved in a concealed fashion).

3.1.8. Raid:
Raids are designed to reduce the ability of an enemy to supply itself, thus softening up an enemy for direct attack later. It damages the supply bars of enemy units more than the units’ health bars, and is also used to pillage occupied terrain. Shift + R issues the Raid order, which gives the attacker a small ATT bonus and reduces the DEF penalties given to the defender from Terrain and Fortresses; the raider is also given +75% to Retreat and an extra move point for the turn. Only units with 2 or more movement points can Raid, and a Raid cannot be conducted two turns in a row—the turn after a raid, the Raiding unit is flagged for you (and a well scouted enemy) to see, and is given a –25% penalty to DEF (the horses are tired or something). 10% of the damage caused by a raid is done to the defending unit(s), 40% is done to those unit(s) supplies, and the other 50% is done to the tile’s Terrain Improvements or the city’s City Improvements and population. If the Raider fails to retreat from battle then it gets –50% to ATT for the remainder of the turn and the rest of the damage it causes is done exclusively to the defender(s). This costs 10 supplies per move but increases your supplies proportional to the supply damage you cause for each attack.

3.1.9. Blitz:
Maybe your enemy is delaying you, or maybe you’re sick of the enemy retreating and repairing. That’s what Blitzing is for. Shift + B issues the Blitz order, which increases the ATT of the Blitzing unit, reduces the Retreat ability of the enemy, and allows you to instantly occupy the newly conquered square without using additional move points. Only units with 3 or more move points can Blitz. Blitzing units get a –25% DEF penalty for the turn after the Blitz, but unlike Raids a unit can Blitz as often as it wants. Additionally, ambushes do double to triple damage to a Blitz. This costs 15 supplies per move, 30 per attack.

3.1.10. Devastate:
Unlimited War, Scorched Earth, call it whatever you want, this order blows the heck out of everything in sight. Shift + D will issue this order. If the Devastating unit is defending it gets a larger bonus than if it is attacking, since house-to-house fighting favors the defense. So, the Defender will receive +1% x (number of city improvements) + 1% x (population of city) + 15% to DEF in a city (this would make a city like New York pretty difficult to take), while in open terrain the defender will receive +4% x (number of terrain improvements in square) + 15% to DEF. An attacker who is Devastating will receive +10% to ATT (pretty lousy, huh?) but will also halve the defender’s Devastate bonus (if any). Devastation will rip a square to shreds, destroying CI’s, TI’s, and population. If both armies are using Devastation the damage will be more than doubled, which means that if two devastating armies fought in New York the city would be pretty much leveled when they were done with it.

3.1.11. Push:
For when you HAVE to get where you’re going. Shift + P orders an army to Push, which increases the unit’s MP’s by 60%, damages the unit slightly, and lowers the unit’s ATT and DEF. A Pushing unit must be issued the command at the beginning of its turn. Each move that a unit is Pushed will cost it 40 supplies, which will effectively drain almost any unit’s supply bar.

3.2. Air Unit Orders:
As stated above, most of these were given in order to allow bombers to attack and return on the same turn.

3.2.1. Bombard:
Air unit bombards a specific unit. May reduce city population if attacking a city. Cannot bombard a concealed unit. Biplanes have only this mission and support/intercept available.

3.2.2. Scorched Earth:
Attacks buildings and population of city. May attempt to target specific city structures for greater risk of failure. In country, pillages terrain. Laser-targeting and perhaps other tech advances (like satellite mapping) will increase chance of success. Heavy Bomber does more damage than regular aircraft.

3.2.3. Interdict:
Heavy Bombers only. Target one or more squares: any unit (friend or foe) in or attempting to pass through squares is attacked by the bomber and expends triple MP’s to enter and leave. The more squares that are selected, the less effective the interdiction. Interdiction causes less damage than bombardment.

3.2.4. Air Support/Intercept:
Air unit acts as artillery in combat as support for ground forces, during the attack or defense. Range of this action is ½ the Range of the aircraft. Fighters may be put on Intercept duty (like Sentry duty) and would attack any enemy aircraft that entered their range. Humans would be allowed to save their intercept until later. Fighters may also be sent to intercept in the same square where the bombers are supporting, which would help reduce enemy interception capability. Effectiveness of this order is determined by present level of Communications and Tactical tech advances.

3.2.5. Carpet Bombing:
Attacks ONE unit in a square with intent to destroy it. (note that if Heavy Bombers are used then either Bombing Runs or Bombardment will have to be modified). Unit attacked is semi-random (who gets attacked is based partly on which unit is easiest to spot), and effectiveness of attack is partly determined by how easy it is to spot the unit which is attacked. In order of hardest to spot + destroy to easiest: Spy/Scout/Diplomat, Settler/Engineer, Infantry, Caravan/Freight, Cavalry/Mounted unit, Mech/Armor unit.

3.2.6. Strategic Bombing:
Attacks a specific unit, a square with TI’s, or a city. Only available with certain tech advances, such as Targeting Radar or Photo Reconnaissance. Additional tech advances, such as Satellite Mapping and Laser-Targeting, make Strategic Bombing more likely to succeed.

3.2.7. Air Transport:
Air unit moves ground units around.

3.2.8. Rest:
Air unit heals and cannot defend.

3.2.9. Redeploy:
Air unit starts next turn in a new city.

3.3. Naval Orders:
Not much talk on these, except that they get some of the same orders as Land Units, such as Besiege, Scout, and Conceal.

3.4. Conquest Orders:
As it stands, when you conquer a city it’s yours whether you want it or not. This must change. Maybe you don’t want the city at all and would prefer to set it free or burn it to the ground, or maybe you want to sack the city so that Partisans cannot attack you so easily (they can’t be supplied as well). These orders wouldn’t really make the game more tedious, since you don’t capture cities that often and a box pops up whenever you capture one anyway.

3.4.1. Occupy:
Same as what happens now when you enter a city, although with the new system perhaps Occupation will result in zero population loss and zero structural damage, but also zero income received. The default order.

3.4.2. Plunder:
Resupplies your army using the city’s resources (works well if a supply bar is used). Besieging armies will often do this automatically. Increases income (unless this is siphoned off by soldiers), destroys more buildings and kills more civilians, and reduces the likelihood that Partisans will appear.

3.4.3. Sack:
Same as Plunder, but also Liberates the city.

3.4.4. Liberate:
You put the city in the hands of a puppet government which is initially friendly to you. The city will take care of defending itself, and Partisans (opposed to you) are less likely to appear. The city will, essentially, become a barbarian city. Will not work if the city was exceptionally loyal to its past Civ, as it will simply rejoin it.

3.4.5. Raze:
Burn the city to the ground! Doesn’t cause as much unhappiness or as many diplomatic repercussions as it would if you occupied the city and then razed it (as was an option in SMAC). Here, you “accidentally” destroy the city while taking it over.

4. Stacking

4.1. Stacking Proposal 1:
Stacking is just a way to lump units together in order to make warmongering easier to do in the Railroad age. Units still attack and defend separately. Units in a stack may begin to retreat if their fellow stack units are being destroyed.

4.2. Stacking Proposal 2:
Stacking is a way to lump units together and allow them to augment each other’s abilities. Stacks receive a bonus for having certain combinations of units (air, mobile, artillery, defense, for example), and more than one unit will attack at a time (10 knights will not attack with 40 ATT, but instead the first knight will use its full strength, the second will use ½ strength, the third will use ¼ strength, the fourth will use 1/8 strength…). Also, stacks from different squares can be combined in a battle (a battleship can be used to assist in a tank battle, for instance).

4.3. The Size of Stacks:
Some argue that there should be an arbitrary limit to the number of units in a stack in order to prevent Uberstacks from being formed. Proposed numbers range from 4 to 9.
Others argue that the size limit in stacks should be increased as technology allows for better movement and supply of stacks.
Another suggestion, put in 1.2 of UNITS, is that the level of commander present determines how many units can be combined in a stack, with better commanders becoming available with tech advances and costing more money for upkeep. For example, an Imperator would require very few tech advances to create and would be relatively cheap, whereas a Field Marshall with a Staff would be hideously costly in technology, resources, and money, but would be vastly superior to an Imperator in abilities.

4.4. Collateral Damage:
Idea 1 is that all the units receive collateral damage regardless of their participation in the combat.
Idea 2 is that units will receive collateral damage proportional to the amount that they contributed to the battle, i.e. if a unit used ¼ of its ATT to augment the main attacker’s ATT, then that unit would receive less collateral damage than the unit using ½ of its ATT for augmentation.

5. Misc:
These are things that weren’t discussed enough to warrant their own section, at least not if I wanted to finish this summary sometime this year.

5.1. Retreat:
This is already a proposed Unit Modifier, something that varies from unit to unit and can be viewed. It shows the ability of a unit to retreat from combat without taking additional losses from confusion and/or stupidity.

5.2. More on Retreating:
You should be able to issue orders during combat for your unit(s) to retreat. This can be done by slowing down combat. Sometimes your unit(s) will retreat on their own, such as if they are Raiding or if they’re raw recruits and have been routed. Experience often determines whether they’ll be routed or not.

5.3. Pursuit:
Only mobile (2 or more MP’s) can pursue. Pursuit will cause a great deal of damage to the enemy—it has been pointed out that historically most casualties were dealt while an army was attempting to retreat. Stacking can make pursuit more difficult, as can delaying tactics, as the former brings artillery to bear against the pursuers and the latter lets the ground troops cover their own tracks.

5.4. Repairs:
If Retreat is a combat option then there may be a problem if repairs remain free. Many suggest that once a unit reaches a critical level of health then it can no longer be repaired for free but requires inputs of shields and/or gold.

5.5. ZOC:
Military units cannot take advantage to spy/partisan immunity to ZOC’s.
Concealed units give off no ZOC.
Units with a critical level of health give no ZOC.

5.6. Bombardment:
The number of rounds that a bombardment proceeds is proportional to the health of the bombard unit. This is because severely damaged units do not have the firepower necessary to mount a massive offensive.
Bombardment should be able to destroy units, although as the enemy unit decreases in health the odds of it being destroyed should also decrease.
Bombardment should cause less damage to infantry and fortified units than cavalry and moving units.
Some units have more than 1 square of range (V2’s and battleships, for example.)

5.7. Navy:
Ships should have greatly increased movements in order to speed things up.

5.8. Communications:
Until modern communications are developed, you should not have direct control over your armies once they have wandered out of a certain range of your border. These units can be issued “standing orders” and will be left in charge of their commander, who will send reports back occasionally. These armies could not be affected by you in tactical combat.

5.9. Structural Damage:
City Improvements and Terrain Improvements have hit points proportional to their technological age, upkeep, and the number of shields required for them to be built. Bombardment and Raids, as well as many other forms of combat, will damage these, and once they reach a critical point they are rendered useless (once they reach 0 hit points, they are destroyed). It costs gold and/or shields to repair these, although some repair work is automatic and it is almost always cheaper to repair than to replace.

5.10. Each turn should be divided into several different phases, such as the movement phase, the combat phase, the counterattack phase, and the final movement phase. This adds some simultaneity to the game while preserving its turn based atmosphere.

5.11. Missiles should not work like airplanes, but should instead be transported on the ground and then launched once.

5.12. Units should have a loyalty factor. Generals especially. Disloyal units might rebel and either join the enemy or start their own Civ.

5.13. Make certain that nuke, bio, and chem warfare is not too powerful. This is easily done by increasing the diplomatic penalties to be equal to the power of the weapons.

5.14. Air units should not get DEF modifiers from terrain and forts when flying overhead.

5.15. Allied units should be able to stack with each other. Who controls the stack is determined when the stack is formed. This could be like leasing units to a friendly civ (an idea in UNITS).

5.16. Use a 3D sphere for the world and have all terrain in 3D. Then add “altitude” factors to units to state how high they can shoot (or how high they fly). Cities will no longer collect resources from production radiuses but from production spheres, as they will be able to dig to deeper depths and farm in the clouds using future technology. Unit ZOC’s will be spheroids or paraboloids, which means that an airplane can fly over a phalanx without violating the phalanx’s ZOC.

5.17. Combat will be resolved by swapping attacker and defender multiple times during the battle until one side retreats or dies.

5.18. A stalemate is one of the possible outcomes of a battle.

5.19. Be able to change home cities anytime, anyplace, in order to help in support.

5.20. In a Democracy or Republic, units cause unhappiness by being outside of their Civ’s borders, not by leaving the home city.

6. Strategic vs. Tactical
Should Civ III be Strategic combat or Tactical combat? The unit orders given in 3.x were one way to resolve this debate. The other resolutions are that Civ III is Strategic, which will not be described here since it has already been described in Civ I and II, and the other resolution is that combat is Tactical, which shall be described below.

6.1. The Battle Board:
The Battle Board is a tactical battlefield, 15 tiles by 15 tiles. The board is divided into 5 sections across and 3 rows down on each side. Across sections are: Right Flank, Right Center, Center, Left Center, and Left Flank, and rows (from nearest enemy to farthest) are Front, Support, and Reserve. There are 3 ranges for units: melee (non-ranged), Short, and Long. Short ranged units (firearms, tanks, etc.) can range 2 rows up, while Long Range units can range 3 rows up. With suitable tech advances (Radio), aircraft and naval units can be assigned to attack any square at all.
You assign your troops to their tiles (you can program in defaults or have saved positions for your troops for different battles). Ranged units without an attack factor (archers, catapults) go in Support. All units have Default orders:
Horse Archers: Default Orders Evade (they attack as they retreat)
Legion/Phalanx: Default Orders Attack
Horse Artillery: Default Orders Evade
Knights, Crusaders, Fanatics: Default Orders All Out Attack, which means that unless you’ve got a good General stacked with these units they’ll rush forward attacking until they’re off the board or destroyed, never defending or turning.
Regular Infantry: Default Orders Defend.
Mobile Units: Default Orders Attack.
If you don’t want to micromanage, then use the Default Orders. If you want to micromanage, then tweak the orders around all you want.
If a unit reaches the enemy’s side (except for All Out Attack units) the unit can turn and attack the flanks or rear for large attack bonuses.
Pursuit: Mobile units in Reserve can pursue the retreating enemy for huge attack bonuses.
Different map tiles would reflect the terrain being fought over—a certain % would be wooded in a forest fight, for example. Villages and farms make strong points, especially for infantry.

[loinburger]

Continue Combat discussion here. Theben should be back soon to moderate.

[Theben]

I'm back! Thank you very much for taking over, technophile! My monitor (at home) is now officially kaput so my reading/posting time will be limited for awhile; fell free to continue upgrading your summary until I get a new one! The summary is awesome!

[SWPIGWANG]

What SO many ideas here, what's left to say
(type)?

Maybe spies............but most ideas are posted in other theads............

[loinburger]

What's left to be posted? I have no idea. I suppose this is a good thing that people are running out of ideas, though--it means that everybody's ideas got into the list to be sent to Firaxis.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I have something... war is too easy. Make units have a cost attached to them. So that the civ must pay that amount of money to keep the army functional. For more info look at my Cost of War thread on the other Civ3 forum.

[loinburger]

Imran:

I agree, BUT...
Don don is putting that in Movement+Supply. I've bumped his thread for you so that you can insure that what you had in mind is in there. At present it is suggested that units require gold, food, and supplies (shields) in order to be at fighting strength. Without supplies they lost ATT/DEF. Without food they suffer damage, are more easily bribed, and will desert eventually. Without gold they are much more easily bribed and will quickly desert. Different units will require different levels of the different types of supplies--fanatics won't need any gold, while mercenaries will need tons of it, for example.

[Theben]

Yes, please put that in the SUPPLY thread. As it isn't combat-specific, it won't go in this summary (unless t'phile feels like it for some reason; btw t'phile, this is your new nickname, since I can't call you techno anymore ).

[loinburger]

bump.

[ottok]

"pay no head, theden!" says Military adisor.

why yuor writting so long??

(It is boring) i am say nothing more...
looks good...

[Ilkka]

Hey Guys !

What if the whole "unitsystem" as well as combat system would be changed like one unit is a division or brigade(or something like that)

You would be able to "buy"/equip the division with AAA or Anti-Tanks weapons, or mines, mobilize it or have real armor, artillery, archery, etc division

And the Division would be able to be teach and be equipped with different skills and equipments, like skies, anti-terrorism, special skills against tanks, special skill fighting on certain terrain so on ...

In combat division(units) would be given bonuses or penalties by what type,on what terrain they are and what skill&equipment they have. Like Very highly traned(skies) and motivated soldiers armed with Anti-tanks missiles in snow high mountain forest terrain should kick armors ass very well, even flatt desert and without ATM they would be slaughtered.Same with ships etc.

So firepower would be based on equipment and unit type, as well as defence unit type and equpment. Hit change based on unit training(almost everyeach terrain type have own bonuses), type and equipment. You got it, if not ask more !

So and division(unit) could not get health back without visiting city with training center(new brave mans) Ofcourse those men should be taken for city, from factories etc.

So This would allowe have reserve system, store equipment(weapons, tanks), and traind people and but them reserve to work. These would have minium maintaince...

Also more people would be unhappy if pasifistic country when more men are in military service(armos div is way effective ...)

[Theben]

Ilkka, welcome aboard. Too bad you're here at the tail end of the summary work. Your proposed ideas are good, and they've been proposed before in conjunction with the UNIT Workshop idea from SMAC. IF IT'S DONE RIGHT the workshop will have many possible options with which players & the AI can build their units. There have also been suggestions to have population reduction in cities IF casualties have been taken on the battlefield; casualties would also cause unhappiness in cities as opposed to merely having armies in other lands. Feel free to read the List and other summaries. I would suggest you start with UNITS since this idea, for the most part, goes there.

[Ilkka]

Hmm, units area. Ok, I have some other ideas(these are probably said once but ...). There must be change to fight without someone(unit) killed, in the real life it doesn't often happen that whole unit(division or whatever) is destroyed.

Second thing, I said already something like this but I suggest that in combat, Airplane shouldn't be able to be damaged if attacked unit has no air defence! Like modern U2 Stealth bomber attacking man with spear (Guess this is said about 10^534 times)

And Third thing, if you can really tell something to them(coders, desingers) tell them to make the game easily modifyable! (I'm doing my 3rd patchs/modpack for civ2, have used 40 hours already... You see I'm taking out everything from Civ2 engine.)
So I actually don't care what kind NUMBERS are given like bonuses etc. Just that they are in game... I will change them anyway sooner or later, if possible.

Hmm, I'm more than little bit of topic now, I guess it really doesn't matter, this header seems to be pretty quiet anyway...

I hope I don't troubled you too much Theben.

I have dozen of ideas but I prefer just trust sid and other developers ... And my English skill isn't very good anyway.

[Victor Galis]

I would add a note that the two combat contents of this summary are an addition to the first combat thread, accounting for omissions and new ideas, but not in any way a replacement. That first combat summary had its own working system that is not even mentioned in here

(And yin told me to summarize three Apton threads ASAP, after I had completed my original summary, so the first summary just ignored these two combat systems...)


Anyhow, an interesting idea posted at firaxis.com [by BusterMan]: You should only get a unit workshop after a certain civ has built Leonardo's Workshop.

or

my alternative: Only more modern units should get this workshop (say 1600s onward). I mean lets face it, a sword is pretty much a sword, even if it is a foot longer or shorter, but an arquebus is not a musket, which is most certainly not a rifle, or any of the minor things that come in between. And 6-in deck guns on a cruiser are not 12-in deck guns (same tech) on a battleship.

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[Theben]

Ilkka:
1) Has been discussed, but without a lot of agreement on which idea should be used.
2) Yes, this has been mentioned in several posts, with varying ideas on what to do (FYI, it's a B2 stealth bomber. The U2 was a spy plane. Just so you know ).
3) I'll be sure to mention that. I agree, most people will want to modify the game at some point.
4) No trouble at all. If you want to trouble me make a long post with all your ideas.

Victor:
Yeah, yeah, I know...but that system was already summarized so I didn't think it needed mentioning. But I can add a reference to it in the final summaryII.

As for Busterman's idea, I disagree, but I'll still include it. As for your idea, a sword is a sword, but some swords are better than others (think Roman centurion's short sword vs. Japanese no-daichi). Add training, types of defense, types of mounts, etc. and you can get a greater variety even in the early game (and some have expressed interest in having more depth in the early game). So again I disagree, but I'll include it.

[Victor Galis]

Yeah, that's all I really ask for, a mention ,(i.e. small reference).

As for Busterman's idea, I do agree with you. It does make for an interesting game if you have Roman Legionares in Samurai armor (with normal Roman weaponry).

(The whole point of the unit workshop is to mix and match. On the other hand I would really love to see a much better AI for it. Asking you to pay money to upgrade a 12-6-6 to a 14-1-6, is well... not good especially if you have to click through many upgrade requests.)

[subspace]

Note that I haven't read all of the suggestions previously sent,so any similarities of ideas is incidental.
1. Military units are based in military bases like barracks, naval bases, airbases, underwater bases, and space stations.These military buildings can be placed inside a city or outside a city. Building military bases in a city should have a significant social effects.
2. Units need to be supported and must be adjacent to the nearest logistic source ( a city or a military base ). In Civ1 and Civ2 , I can launch a cruiser or a trireme out to the sea, explore the planet, and not return before I reveal the whole map ( which could
take centuries without even returning to any land ). Although this is convenient, this is totally unrealistic. In Civ1 and 2, I can also send a tank to travel half way around the world, and this could take decades. No one in their right mind would do this in the real world !
3. Suggestion military improvements : Assasin Training Camp, Central Intelligence Control, the Pentagon, Cyber-Defense Initiative, Space Station
4. Suggestion for military units : Ultra Carrier (sea unit;10 x larger than the Carrier), Infantry Transport, Special Urban Units (rescuing hostages, raiding terrorist camp), Special Recon & Assault Team (the Navy Seals), Mega Sub, Helepolis, Anti-Aircraft Artillery/AAA (quasi- military improvement), Earthquake/Tsunami Sattelites.

[subspace]

Evil Conquerer said that I should send my suggestions to the right thread (Thanx!), so here they are:

1.Each type of units must have it's own varieties. I'll use "Fighter" as an example.
In reality, there are many types of fighter aircrafts in the world, from P-51, MiG-21, to F-22. The strength of each types of "Fighters " should be different. To improve the level of strength of each type of fighters, use the military improvements, such as airbases and barracks. (Yeah, I know it's similar to AoE, but it's good to have in Civ3)

2.Espionage Screen
Make spies work like caravans in CTP. The total numbers of spies determines the total strength of a nation's intelligence network. Embassies besides being the secret base of spies, also provide a sanctuary for spies (diplomatic immunity) and can collect a more elaborate info (from the media). Espionage screen also include a satellite recon screen (after correct advances).

3.Use the military support cost of CTP. The city-base system of Civ2 is ridiculous.

4.Barbarians must also improving, not just the civilizations. I don't mean their weapons, but their system. For example :

Ancient Ages : Barbarians who have real camps ; they invade regions/cities, pillage, and siege cities.
Modern Ages : Terrorist with secret basecamp ; they demolish specific bulidings, reduce happiness (terrorize), kidnapp ambassadors.
Future Ages : Hackers, they hack into a country's mainframe, send viruses, alter a nation's bank account.

5. Multiple types of units can be recruited at the same time. The task of recruiting military units is done outside the production window, so in case of an emergency, it wouldn't interfere with the building of a citywall, for eaxmple.
To recruit new units, click on their base (barracks, camp, airbase, naval base). This is similar to C&C and AoE.

6.Use realistic numbers for units, like :
"... 10,000 legions and 500 catapults of the Ytrium empire are marching toward the Gobi desert, where 100 elite PlasmaTroopers and 50 ProtonTanks of Subspace Confederation who have just invaded the Ytrium empire's border, are setting up a fortress for their 17th Special Regiment ..."

[Changmai Beagle]

If not too late to comment. It would be nice to be able to move units in combat screen to position ones in front (cannon fodder like outdated phalanxes) and protect favourites - also rotate out depleted troops. I rather like the Master of Magic approach on this one. Even Conquest of New World less developed level would be nice. Recognize it would slow down things.

[Changmai Beagle]

Another idea - would like to be able to name stacks to keep track of who's where. To avoid problem of historical time dilation - not heroes or generals. However, the Princess Patricia's Light Infantry, the U.S. 7th Cavalry or the Immortals have lasted or did last for some time.

[Cosilongo]

Attacking from shipboard should be possible with any type of infantry, not just marines. I like to play Vikings :-) Seriously though, raiding from the sea was widespread through a long period of history.

There could be a "no nukes" option at game startup! I hate those things!

[SWPIGWANG]

2.8. Maneuverability:
I think Maneuverability should effect attacking unit greatly.Commands like Bliz,retrate should take a lot Maneuverability.

[Theben]

Close this thread too. New version started.

[ottok]

batbatles must make more real, this is my think. example. Warrior attacks to Warrior in somewhere where arent defense bonus, Both are
"hints" is decrease half. Or near half. Next turn, next turns batle says the winner, maybe.
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