Thread Tools
Old November 17, 1999, 15:58   #1
mumba
Settler
 
Local Time: 23:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Canada
Posts: 3
trade routes
I would like to get some feedback on trade routes. Are they important if you want to go with science? People talk about getting 1000 arrows. I can't even come close to that. When I establish trade routes i get only 2-5 arrows from the route. How do you get so many. I currently play at prince level. I am a semi-micromanager who is into quick discoveries with large cities.
mumba is offline  
Old November 17, 1999, 16:04   #2
Sten Sture
Emperor
 
Sten Sture's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: SF, CA don't call it frisco... Striker!!
Posts: 3,617
When people talk about 1000 arrows for a trade route they are talking about the one time bonus. You get the same number of science beakers toward your next advance as you do gold for the treasury. When you are delivering trade goods, a bigger city, that is farther away and has some trade specials like whales or gems will give you bigger bonuses, and more "per-turn" arrows.
Sten Sture is offline  
Old November 17, 1999, 16:12   #3
DaveV
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
King
 
DaveV's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: USA - EDT (GMT-5)
Posts: 2,051
A minor clarification to what Sten Sture said: distance does, indeed, play a big part in the one-time bonus. But it doesn't matter for the continuing, "per-turn" arrows. Otherwise, most of the things that increase your bonus will also increase the "per-turn" arrows.
DaveV is offline  
Old November 17, 1999, 16:13   #4
mumba
Settler
 
Local Time: 23:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Canada
Posts: 3
What is the most arrows people have had one city produce and how did you achieve it?
mumba is offline  
Old November 17, 1999, 16:24   #5
valmont
Scenario League / Civ2-CreationMac
Warlord
 
valmont's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 206
Trade is essential if you plan to win through science. Trade arrows are the source of all your coins, grails and flasks.

To get a large amount of trade arrows in one city: Find a spot near some good trade specials (grapes, spice, gold, silk are mighty nice; whales are good too). If the spot has rivers, you hit the jackpot. Build a city there. Build the Colossus wonder and Shakespeare's Theatre wonder. Build roads in every square in the city radius; irrigate every plain and grassland square. Change to Republic; Use WLT*D to grow the city to max size. Be sure to build farmland later on to grow even more. Send caravans to the largest AI cities you can find.

Trade routes generate more arrows when the cities involved generate more arrows, so the more trade you get, the more you get. Just like life, huh! A route that is only worth 5 arrows at first will be worth many more as the city grows.

By now your city should be the tradingest town on the map, but there's still more you can do. 1) delay discovery of flight as long as possible; 2) go for automobile; 3) build superhighways. Wow, look what happened:

1. Republic or Democracy gives extra trade arrow wherever at least one already exists;
2. Colossus gives extra trade arrow wherever at least one already exists;
3. Superhighway gives 50% more arrows to aquares with roads;
4. 3 trade routes should bring in ca. 20 arrows each by now

p.s. the city I describe will crank out massive amounts of flasks if you build the Copernicus and Newton wonders in it.
valmont is offline  
Old November 18, 1999, 08:59   #6
Campo
Warlord
 
Campo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Posts: 282
I've read many of the old threads about trade, and you all have me absolutely convinced of its importance. I could see great benefits in my last game.

However, I agree with the originator of this thread -- I'm not getting anywhere near the kinds of gold and trade bonuses that people on this board routinely refer to. From a size 16 city with a good trade item, to a size 8 AI city (largest available) on a different continent, I might get 250 gold.

I do build a science city with the key wonders. However I send out caravans from that one early, to start generating trade early. At that point in the game it's only size 4 to 8, and the AI cities even smaller. Should I be waiting until later to start my science city caravans? (But then I'd lose the early benefit.)

How the heck are you getting a thousand or more gold from your non-science cities?

I have the MGE version -- is it possible that trade bonuses were reduced, or (more likely) am I missing something?
Campo is offline  
Old November 18, 1999, 11:24   #7
jpk
Prince
 
Local Time: 23:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 459
At the beginning of the game the trade bonuses are smaller, perhaps because the AI civilizations are in Despotism or Monarchy rather than Republic or Democracy. Also, because the source city has few trade routes, it will have fewer trade arrows, hence the caravan will be less valuable. When people report the size of their trade routes, they probably report the really big ones, not the smaller ones. I have acted this way. Don't worry about it. Get what you can from each caravan.

One way trade routes help is that they make it easier to get We Love the ? Days. If you have a Republic or Democratic government your city can grow and that seems to make the trade route even more valuable. Also, when you deliver a caravan try to deliver it to a city with lots of roads, whales, and fish. You will want the destination city to have a lot of trade as well. It will help if the destination city needs the commodity you are delivering.

Before you actually deliver the caravan zoom into the source city and alter the location of all workers so that you have the maximum trade possible. Don't worry about food or shields. If the destination city is one of yours, do the same for that city. Before you end the turn MAKE SURE YOU RESET THE WORKERS. If you don't you will likely leave your city undefended.

From time to time cities change the trade goods they produce. If you build three caravans so that your city can no longer produce anything but food, build something else. Generally, in a short time your city will be able to trade some new commodity.

What really speeds the aquisition of new sciences is the delivery of caravans. Build lots of caravans. If you don't have a good reason to build something other than a caravan, build a caravan. It is my opinion that the one time bonuses are more important for the aquisition of new sciences than the science you get from the trade route. If you get 500 science beakers from the delivery of a caravan and a trade route of size 5 then it will take about 100 turns for the trade route to generate the same amount of science as the delivery of a caravan. The exact number of turns will depend upon your science rate and whether you have a library, university, or research lab. Other than in my science city, I rarely build libraries or universities. I find caravans are more effective ways of generating science.

Hopefully this is worth $.02.
jpk is offline  
Old November 18, 1999, 11:30   #8
Steve Clark
King
 
Steve Clark's Avatar
 
Local Time: 17:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,555
$.02?? That was worth a whole lot more, jpk
Steve Clark is offline  
Old November 18, 1999, 12:52   #9
MyOlde
Prince
 
Local Time: 23:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Haliburton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 525
I'm not clear on this trade bonus thing. I understand it is a one-time only thing. But when does it occur. Is it when my caravan arrives at a city for the first time? The first delivery of a particular product?

Another one: is it better to spread a product around? If for example 4 cities "demand hides", is it better to vary the destination or should I always send hides to the city with the largest number shown? Which is what I tend to do.

Thanks.
MyOlde is offline  
Old November 18, 1999, 14:07   #10
DaveV
Apolytoners Hall of Fame
King
 
DaveV's Avatar
 
Local Time: 19:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: USA - EDT (GMT-5)
Posts: 2,051
MyOlde,

There are some tactical considerations involved in whether you keep running your caravans to the same city, or spread the wealth. Only the builder of the caravan gets the one-time bonus, but both cities benefit from the trade route. So if you're sending caravans to your own cities, you probably want to send the caravan to a city that doesn't have three trade routes already. On the other hand, sending all of your caravans to a single AI city will maximize your benefit and minimize the AIs'.
DaveV is offline  
Old November 18, 1999, 20:20   #11
Carolus Rex
Civilization II MultiplayerCivilization II PBEM
Emperor
 
Local Time: 01:25
Local Date: October 31, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Sweden
Posts: 3,054
To get an idea how important a caravan or freight is for your science:

i) Before entering the destination city, check with your science advisor (F6) and see where the beakers approximately end.

ii) Close the science advisor and send in the camel.

iii) Go back to the science chief and rejoice!

This procedure has become an addiction in itself to me. I just have to know, every time, in every game...

Even though the bonus is lower in the early game, trading is still important. The reason is the smaller amount of beakers you need for each advance. A 250 gold bonus might almost fill the box in one turn, whereas a 1300 gold bonus later in the game maybe "only" fills, say, half.

Caravans rule!

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited November 18, 1999).]
Carolus Rex is offline  
Old November 18, 1999, 23:07   #12
Matthew
Prince
 
Local Time: 23:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Manhattan, Kansas . USA
Posts: 724
There are several possible reasons you might not be getting larger trade bonuses. First of all the discovery of navigation and invention both reduce trade bonuses, and if no one's discovered these in the first 100 turns these penalties are applied anyway. The discovery of the railroad will also cause trade bonuses to be reduced, this time by 33%. The trick is to do as much trading as you can before these points, and also to keep your cities growing (in particular increasing the trade they get by working terrain, as that's what goes into the calculation). Freight units have a 50% higher trade bonus too. And the Superhighways will do wonders, not only because they increase the trade from any land square you work that already has trade, but also because of another bonus you get if both cities involved in the transaction have the Superhighways.

Also, supplying a commodity in demand makes a huge difference. If you build it, and noone demands it, save it till someone does or use it for a wonder.

If the AI or human city you are trading with doesn't have much trade (sometimes the AI's will avoid working a trade square like the plague) that will also mean less bonus.

But even if you only get 250 gold from a caravan it's still very worth while. Aside from the science bonus and continuing trade route, that's worth 62 shields in buying a wonder, 100 shields in buying units (most efficient for a wonder, buy a few rows of caravans you're working on for that wonder) or 125 shields towards city improvements. All for a mere 50 shields.
Matthew is offline  
Old November 19, 1999, 00:14   #13
Sergeant Sheets
King
 
Local Time: 23:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: of every inner Fantasy you have.
Posts: 2,449
Trade routes also make excellent weapons. Nothing more amply covers an oncoming force than a train of caravans. Beware of stacked caravans, for they are in fact your demise.
Sergeant Sheets is offline  
Old November 19, 1999, 01:31   #14
Sten Sture
Emperor
 
Sten Sture's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: SF, CA don't call it frisco... Striker!!
Posts: 3,617
MyOlde - When you deliver a caravan to a city you get a message like: "Trade caravan arrives in Thebes, 305 gold" That statement means you also get 305 beakers toward your science accumulation, as seen in the science advisor screen.

Generally larger cities have more trade arrows produced, but a size 5 on a rivers with a whale might have more trade than a size 7 city on plains without trade specials. And you get a bigger bonus for deliverying your caravan to a foreign civ, especially if it is on a different land mass than the city that built the caravan.
Sten Sture is offline  
Old November 19, 1999, 09:27   #15
Campo
Warlord
 
Campo's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Posts: 282
Matthew said: "But even if you only get 250 gold from a caravan it's still very worth while. Aside from the science bonus and continuing trade route, that's worth 62 shields in buying a wonder, 100 shields in buying units (most efficient for a wonder, buy a few rows of caravans you're working on for that wonder) or 125 shields towards city improvements. All for a mere 50 shields."

I just want to be sure I understand this. Caravans don't provide shields directly -- you're just referring to the number of shields I can save by buying items with the gold, right?
Campo is offline  
Old November 19, 1999, 10:13   #16
Flavor Dave
Prince
 
Local Time: 23:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Posts: 452
Campo--you get bigger bonuses trading with a foreign city, and a bigger bonus for trading overseas.

It can be very useful to build a city on a nearby island, and home all caravans to your colossus city, then send them to this island. (This is during the trireme era, when it may not be practical toget to foreign civs.)
Flavor Dave is offline  
Old November 19, 1999, 10:56   #17
Winston
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Yes, Campo, you've got it right.

The figures for the units only apply if you use incremental buying, however. That is, instead of buying, say, a settler outright, you generate a few shields towards a warrior, buy the warrior, change to horsemen, buy that and so on. It's cheeper than buying the unit you're really after outright.

Some consider this a cheat, but I'm all for it.
 
Old November 21, 1999, 18:11   #18
geofelt
Prince
 
Local Time: 18:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Neptune Beach,Florida,USA
Posts: 806
I like to build lots of wonders, and early on, I have more problem getting the shields to produce the wonders than getting the prerequisite techs. For the cost of a caravan, you can build a new city, and I think this is better to do early in the game. Early caravans are not that effective because the bonus and the continuing income is dependent on the trade of both cities, and that is small, early on. If I am trying to build a science city, I build the wonders first, I can always build trade routes later.
geofelt is offline  
Old November 21, 1999, 21:26   #19
Matthew
Prince
 
Local Time: 23:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Manhattan, Kansas . USA
Posts: 724
very early, yes, go for the settler. But once you have enough cities that the extra unhappiness starts to become a factor It can really pay off to build the caravan to get that extra bit of thech to get MC or JSB sooner or some cash to rush buy a couple of temples in new cities. A size 5 or 6 city early on, especially with a couple of trade specials, can produce a surprisingly large bonus before invention and navigation are discovered.
Matthew is offline  
Old November 22, 1999, 23:05   #20
War4ever
Civilization II MultiplayerCivilization III MultiplayerCivilization II Democracy GameApolytoners Hall of Fame
Emperor
 
War4ever's Avatar
 
Local Time: 15:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: I live amongst the Red Sox Nation
Posts: 7,969
i have to agree with geofelt here.... i build alot of wonders too and i don't think i ever deliver a caravan for a trade route until well after AD. However I am a militaristic expansionist did I mention aggresive as well ... I do launch to AC in some games but often i just grind it out with large wars. However when i am AC bound... trade routes are important but not until later.... this is probably why i never come close to the record and why my bank stagnates in the middle game.
War4ever is offline  
Old November 25, 1999, 10:04   #21
Jefferson Davis
Chieftain
 
Local Time: 23:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Huntsville,AL USA
Posts: 44
great insight
I love this site
Jefferson Davis is offline  
Old November 26, 1999, 07:56   #22
Scouse Gits
lifer
Civilization II PBEMTrade Wars / BlackNova TradersGalCiv Apolyton EmpireApolytoners Hall of FameCivilization II Succession Games
Emperor
 
Scouse Gits's Avatar
 
Local Time: 23:25
Local Date: October 30, 2010
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Liverpool, United Kingdom
Posts: 6,344

To all Micromanagers and Trade Route Sceptics!


Greetings - I have recently discovered a fantastic tool that is of immense help for micromanagement and will instantly convince those sceptics out there that Trade Routes rule!
It's a widget called the Cool Rule - an on-screen ruler (the straight edged variety - not one that is feted on WLT*D) and can be used to clearly measure the gains from each trade route going in on the beaker collection of the Science Advisor.
I wouldn't be without it and it can be downloaded free from www.fabsoft.com
Enjoy, Scouse Git[1]
Scouse Gits is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 19:25.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team