I can't fight!!!

Genghis Al · December 16, 1999, 00:54

Hello, I just registered, i have been reading for sometime though, and I learned so much I needed to get into it.

Here is the question, I always tend to... LOSE ALL WARS in this game, I always win via AC and I never built caravans until know. Why am I so bad at fighting? I keep usaually 1 phalanx. and I build walls in the ones close to the other civ's. I try to attack them and lose, they attack me and take a city. HELP ME

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A russian never forgets

Smash · December 16, 1999, 02:53

You must not be attacking with strong enough units.Make sure your attackers are veterans.

Against the ai:

Use pre worked settlers to "flash" forts beside enemy cities then load that fort up on the same turn.

pre worked settler-start a settler mining(easiest in case you forget him for a turn) next turn "click" him to stop.Now move him to the desired location and press F.Poof! instant fort!Next load up the fort with 2 defenders and 4 0r 5(or more) attackers.Fortify them .Next turn attack.

Use ceasefires to build roads right to the cities and to move your pre worked settlers into position.Great Wall is handy here.

Probably the easiest way to get started is after monarchy get Feudal and build the War Academy.Go for chivalry and start building vet knights.Hit them early with your knights,use catapults and preworked settlers for "stubborn" walled cities.Steer towards Leadership for Dragoons.

You can also go for Mono and Crusaders instead of Knights but a longer route to Dragoons.

Build The Lighthouse and get Steam before Magnet.Now you have a window in which to build vet-ironclads.They ignore city walls and will smash defenders up to and including riflemen.Great for coastal cities.Hit a city with 4 or 5 vet irons,sail your caravel up and unload your horse.The city is yours.

Don't send unit after unit.Assemble your army and move in an organized fashion.Use the terrain to your advantage.Have some defenders and diplomats in your army.

.....or wait for Robotics and have your way.

Use trade routes and possibly Fundy to build up your treasury and go city shopping with boatloads of Diplomats or Spys

December 16, 1999, 03:03

I find nuclear weapons a great comfort when strategy fails me.

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Founder, fraternal comrade and citizen of the People's Republic of Off Topic (PROT)

My mind not only wanders, sometimes it leaves completely.

If you can remain calm, you just don't have all the facts.

Krushala · December 16, 1999, 03:54

As has been pointed out, always attack with veteran units. I have no success attacking cities without veterans. In my opinion there are few units that should be attacking cities (especially with city walls). In the early game use knights or crusaders (high attack, good movement). Archers and catapults are worthless (unless you do manage to get a fortress one square from his city- hard to do for me). In the mid game use cavalry. And of course howitzers in the late game (they can take any unit inside a city because they ignore city walls). I only use 2 units to take cities, Knights and howitzers (just move in better defensive units after you take the city). The other units are good only for destroying units out in the open.

Forgot aircraft. Use bombers in conjunction with tanks/howitzers. Don't use fighters they have poor attack on cities (fly in fighters when you take the city). Stealth fighter is good for weaker units. Use battleships for shore bombardment which can take most any unit unless a coastal fortress is up.
[This message has been edited by Krushala (edited December 16, 1999).]

Campo · December 16, 1999, 12:28

Everyone says "build vet units". The only way I know to do that is by getting the War Academy. Then there's the problem of Leo upgrading existing units. Is there a technique I'm missing?

Sten Sture · December 16, 1999, 12:52

Great summary Smash!

Ghengis Al - I emphasize using defensive terrain effectively, and then launching a counter attack. If an enemy city is built next to a mountain, or even a hill, you can put a defensive unit like a phalanx or a pikeman and a slow offensive unit like a catapult on the mountain and attack with the cat and defend with the phalanx or pike. This gives you a chance to successfully defend if you don't have the liberty of committing a settler to fort building at the moment. Even if you can't completely take the city, you will force your adversary to try to dislodge you, which will waste their resources.

If you feel like you are losing too many battles, then maybe you are overreaching, or not dictating the ground to fight over. Don't attack with defensive or wounded units! Attacking a settler with a phalanx is a quick way to lose that phalanx. And try not to defend with offensive units.

Campo - build a barracks first in the city and all units produced there will be vets.
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited December 16, 1999).]

Steve Clark · December 16, 1999, 15:03

Veterans or not, I don't fight offensively unless my units are stronger than their units or to have significant cash to bribe everything coming your way. Defensively, phalanx and then pikemen behind city walls will hold out for a very long time. I have never lost a bloodlust game yet and the key is to make it a dedicated goal from turn 1 to have a better armed forces (and more spies) than your opponents. The secret to total warfare? Fundamentalism.
[This message has been edited by Steve Clark (edited December 16, 1999).]

Genghis Al · December 16, 1999, 16:47

Hey thanks for all the advice, I never put much effort into making vets. It is becouse war comes so inexpected I build untis rather then barracks. I never build barracks the cost upkeep and go absolete. I guess I will have to change if I want to survive.

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A russian never forgets

jpk · December 17, 1999, 01:55

If your attacking units do not ignore walls, use diplomats or spies to knock out the walls. You will lose some diplomats and spies. They cost 30 shields but any decent offensive unit costs at least 40 shields. Unless you have an overwhelming qualitative advantage in your units attack a single city with a large number of units.

Krushala does not like stealth fighters. I do. Prior to the AI getting mechanized infantry, several veteran stealth fighters in combination with paratroopers can conquer any city within their reach. If you are sure that you can take the city, a stealth fighter can keep on attacking a city until it has but one turn left. After you capture the city, land the stealth fighter in the newly captured city.

If you build lots of caravans (see the end of this message for additional advice), you will be rich enough to bribe cities. Take the AI's capitol, repeating this step as often as necessary, and then start bribing.

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If you can not think of a good reason to build something other than a caravan, build a caravan!

Krushala · December 17, 1999, 19:17

Yes I forgot barracks. I'm a late fighter and don't go for war academy. I try for mobile as early as possible and put barracks in about hald my cities. Airports and port facilities in the other half.

Actually I love the stealth fighters. As long as the enemy is still using rifleman. They can quickly clean out cities with lowly units. And I use them on partisans if they are on plains/grassland.

Campo · December 18, 1999, 01:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Sten Sture on 12-16-1999 11:52 AM
Campo - build a barracks first in the city and all units produced there will be vet

Right, I knew that at one time but had forgotten. I haven't been building barracks because of obsolescence and also because I always get Leo's, so my units lose vet status when upgraded. There's no way around that, right?

December 20, 1999, 01:06

Amazing stuff to be found. A "Civer" who forgets that barracks produce veteran units.
And the topic starter is surprised that his one unit is insufficient defense in city.
What a world,what a world.

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"What's good fer me ain't necessarily good fer the weak-minded."

geofelt · December 21, 1999, 19:57

To win at fighting, you need to be able to evaluate the defensive strength of your opponent as compared to your attack strength. Barracks produce veterans which are 50% stronger(rounded down). Walls triple defensive strength, and terrain is added strength. Assume that defenders are fortified which adds 50%. A phalanx fortified behind walls defends at 7. Attacking with a catapult(6) will likely lose. Attacking with a vet catapult(9) will likely win. Do not attack until you have enough units to wipe out all the defenders and take the city. If you don't, the city will get reinforced faster than you can recover, and you will have to start all over again. When you get howitzers, you will beat any defender, possibly excepting units on a mountain.

My Wife Hates CIV · December 21, 1999, 22:38

Now, I'm not 100% sure about this but, it seems that when attacking (with any unit) the terrain the attacker is on makes a difference. I know the terrain the defender is on makes a difference but when I attack from mountains or hills I always do a little better (more so when using air units).

My Wife Hates CIV · December 21, 1999, 23:34

For later in the game spies are the best. Just go in and posion the water supply. They never fail. Walk in and destroy the AI without a single shot. Take the city when size 1 and no more ai. whats great about this is there is no city for the ai to take back. supported units vanish without shields.

this works well against an ai with better techs and units.

Theben · December 22, 1999, 03:16

Other things that're great about spies is that you can use them for multiple missions in one turn. Say you drop off the spy onto land (1 MP) next to the target city. For 1/3rd MP you may Establish Embassy (if you haven't yet: btw did I mention that you should ALWAYS have embassies with a potential enemy?), 1/3rd more move you Investigate City (again, knowledge is crucial). Now you have 1 and 1/3 MP's left to scout around and steal, sabotage, etc. with your 1 spy. Since by then the enemy usually has railroads (you DID drop her on a rail, right?), feel free to scout as far as you can go and still have enough move left to reach your target.

Now you have to decide what you're going to use the spy for (actually, you should have planned this before). Is it a walled town? Walls are hard to take out, but at least spies have the option. Try to plan for easier sabotage targets. Coastal forts are easy targets, and good ones if you have cruisers offshore. Do you plan on buying it? Target temples, cathedrals, and COURTHOUSES! Does the enemy have a powerful defense? Consider destroying his barracks: no more new vet defenders AND damaged units are not instantly repaired.

Should you lose a city to an enemy, make the best of it. Try to have 3 diplomats at all times, especially early on. Say some superior tech civ who you haven't met before comes along and takes your city. Send in the dips: 1st one Est. Embassy, 2nd steals tech, 3rd buys back city. Now you have your city back, and likely have his invading army as well, and are 2 techs up from where you were!

Steve Clark · December 23, 1999, 01:22

Oh great! AH is now an emperor. That means we got to bow down to him

I concur with Theben, having a large defense forces of spies and diplomats is a great thing. They cost nothing to support and by bribing any barbs, you get NONE units and bribing leaders gets more diplomats, and so on. I would rather have a wall of fortified spies/dips than artillery.

Theben · December 23, 1999, 01:41

Yeah, barbarians are great when you have dips, that's another reason I make Writing priority when I'm expanding on my continent. I rarely buy barb leaders, though. Usually I'll bribe his chariot/horseman entourage and then use one against the leader. This almost always gives me +2 military units and a tidy profit, even when including the cost of bribing. Early generations generally consist of 2 horsemen (cost 41 coins each) or 2 chariots (cost 61 each) and a leader. If you are playing with raging hordes the barb leaders are worth 150 coins, so bribing 2 chariots for 122 coins still nets 28 gold! Barbarians are your friend.

Krushala · December 23, 1999, 05:03

Of course I didn't forget barracks produce veteran units. I just forgot to put it in my first post that's all. You either build war academy or build barracks. Attacking with non veteran units is worthless. It never works on the higher levels. Barracks are always a must build so I don't think about them much.

Puaxant Tuvip · December 23, 1999, 05:47

I do love spies. But the manual says you can place them in your city to defend against dipolomats stealing tech. But this never seems to work. I just hate it when a lowly diplomat can steal tech when I have esionage. I still have to have units outside my cities to keep the unwanteds out. So I usually end up using these to take care of barbs.

Sieve Too · December 23, 1999, 08:39

In most of the fast conquest games I play, I never build Barracks or STWA. If you combine ICS with fast conquest and Leo's Workshop, you'll be pumping out so many units that vet status won't matter much. But if you play perfectionist or hold off attacking until later years, you better have all vet units.

Genghis Al · December 23, 1999, 18:05

This thread really helped me, I no longer fear starting near another civ.

Bohlen: I don't think the attacker is affected by terrian. The manual says nothing about that, nor does any strat guid I ever read. mybe it is a MOD thing though?

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Ah man! Ghandi! New game.

-Genghis Al

Smash · December 23, 1999, 18:11

Yes terrain effects attackers but advantage is always with the defender.

In order to have a good shot at thwarting espionage,you will need 5 dips or 3 spys(2 vet spys) in the city.Not very practical and no guarantee.In an OCC game,thru bribing I ended up with 18 dips in the city and that seemed to work.So station 18 dips in all your cities

I haven't seen a benefit of a courthouse in this matter.At all.Not in any of my games anyhow.

Scouse Gits · December 23, 1999, 19:43

Smash....18 dips a city - I love it ....especially when you're playing ICS. That's a lot of beer and sandwiches for those guys. Is there any way of knowing when you have thwarted espionage?
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Scouse Git (2)

Genghis Al · December 23, 1999, 20:16

It just so happens that before the chinese nuked the hell out of me. They tried to preform so kind of spy thing on Moscow (which had a vet spy) And the spies went in and a messege box said, "russian spy fiols espoinoge attempt"

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Ah man! Ghandi! New game.

-Genghis Al

Smash · December 23, 1999, 21:26

yep.Thats the message you get.Its a good feeling.

That game it was 2 ais sending dip after dip rather aimlessly.Interestingly,the ai sort of "learned" and started sending them in stacks.I had to use my "SS" freights as blockers.It kinda resembled a goal line stand in football with the ai trying to punch a dip thru..hehe

Scouse Gits · December 23, 1999, 22:06

I will have to keep more spies in frontier towns. Never seen the message yet.

In one game the French were desperate to get the superconductor. I had sealed off all land and sea access - but the A1 kept building more spies. It seems the program says keep making them until the tech is stolen.

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Scouse Git (2)

Scouse Gits · December 24, 1999, 01:22

SPIES
Has anyone ever stopped an AI from stealing techs, by keeping a spy in a city? (Never seen a notice like coastal fortress doubles defence etc.)
Come to think of it, I have never had any of my spies fail to steal. They may get captured afterwards - but they deliver the goods.

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Scouse Git (2)

Bohlen · December 24, 1999, 01:50

MWHC - I've been thinking the same thing about the terrain of the attacker. I have been playing MOMjr this week and have been battling Chaos for years over a strategically located city. Whenever an Iron Golem on mountains attacks my defending Iron Golem fortified within city walls, my Golem is either destroyed or severely damaged. If the attacking Golem is on the nearby plains, the attack fails miserably. I've never noticed anything like this before. Have there been any lengthy discussions on the effects of the attacker's terrain during combat? Anyone have any thoughts?