To buy, or not to Buy?? But... CTP is'nt fixed yet!

Diemar · December 19, 2000, 02:23

All the bugs in CTP isn't fixed yet... how can they send CTP2 on the marked with all the bugs still in CTP??

Oh, wait, nevermind that question... CTP was one big playtest which they also earned a buck on, and now a the real game has hit the marked... with no bugs ofcause... right?

No, wait, maybe CTP2 is one giant patch to CTP, but isn't patches free of charge?? It seems to me that paying full gameprice for patch is a bit out of place.

Hmm, to buy or not to buy? Lets see, if i wait until CTP3 patch hits the marked, then CTP2 would be playtestet by all you trustworthy fools outthere, and then it would be "almost" bugfree. This seems like a good time to buy this CTP2 patch.

But then on the other hand, I would miss some new features in bug-infested patch 3, so I think that I never ever again will waste money on a CTP game, eventhough I sadly think that the overall gameplay is awesome.

Then again, nearly all of us are forced to use microsoft windows as our operating system(except those who really what to spend the time setting up and maintaining linux), which mean a lot of blue screens and generaly a lot of bugs, which can be avoided if certain elements of then system never are used.
You can simarly avoid most bugs in CTP by just not generateing the occurrence under which the bugs manifests themself(Like multiplaying over the internet).

So is the game worth buying?? I'm still thinking hard!!

Enslave them all!!
Thomas Diemar

The Viceroy · December 19, 2000, 09:27

Im one of the fools you refer to .. actually, for all my irritation with Activision, and yes, I agree, the bugs are blatent and its difficult to understand how they were missed in Patch 1.1 .. I have to say, buy it.. If you apply the principle of wait and see, you will never get the game (you will never get any game). There is a lot of re-work in the diplomacy area, and the balance of play is better.. Us programmers have to earn a living also you know, and if High Street retailers can con you (the public) into buying P3,1000Mhz with Windows pre-installed (ie, included in the cost regardless) when all you wanted was a word processor and to play a few games.. why can't we use our knowledge to earn a pound or 2.. What im saying is, there are greater villans than us .. sure, complain about the similarities, and lack of originality .. or bad design .. but buy it first, and validate your complaints.

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"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon

gascooker · December 19, 2000, 10:55

Under the UK's Consumer Protection Act 1987, I am lead to believe that it is illegal to knowingly sell faulty products in the market place.

If faults are found or any claims made by the manafacturer are unfounded it is the responsibility of the manafacturer to remedy them or the consumer has the right to a full refund.

This doesn't sound like a good way to make a pound or two. Not to mention the loss in confidence of any companies involved.

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(Please note that this comment was posted in response to The Viceroy"s reply to "To Buy or not to buy..." on Dec19th above - and is in no way intended to imply that Activision are an irresponsible company - although many may find that hard to believe considering the amount of blatent bugs still crawling around CTP2)

The Viceroy · December 19, 2000, 11:33

Bugs I agree .. they should be patched, and it is the responsibility of the software house to fix it .. as I would with any product bought by a customer. But a V2 which has the same functionality + more .. thats a different story .. CTP2 has much more functionality than CTP1 .. bugs and all.

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"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon

blinder2451 · December 19, 2000, 14:24

Most of the bugs I see aren't really bugs, but ignorance on the consumer's part.

For instance, it's supposed to crash! This tells you the game is not working with your computer and it's time to buy a new computer.

Or, it's supposed to do something other than what the manual says! Programmers are might finicky, so although the manual tells you you can make an Alliance with Peace & Military Pact, what you actually need is just a Peace & an EMBASSY. Hence, it's a learning experience to see what the programmer was thinking, without having the right info.

Also, generally, why could I run Civ1 and Civ2 unpatched, but Activision puts out buggy software, and then expects us to patch it? Another learning experience; don't trust faceless corporations who employ Microsoft's bug-fixing method of 'Let the Buyer Beware'.

I think it's more like 'Let the buyer find the bugs so we don't have to; the game almost works anyway!'

gascooker · December 19, 2000, 15:40

quote:

Originally posted by The Viceroy on 12-19-2000 10:33 AM
...a V2 which has the same functionality + more .. thats a different story .. CTP2 has much more functionality than CTP1 .. bugs and all.

Are you saying that because CTP2 has greater functionality than CTP1 Activision are excused from making it work properly. CTP2 can attempt to have more functionality than a NASA supercomputer for all I care - if it doesn't work how Activision describe it should do in the manual, or in their marketing of the game, then they shouldn't be allowed to sell until it does.

gascooker · December 19, 2000, 15:51

quote:

Originally posted by blinder2451 on 12-19-2000 01:24 PM

....I think it's more like 'Let the buyer find the bugs so we don't have to; the game almost works anyway!'

Your point is further validated by Activision themselves, who said the following in a reply to an email I sent them about the game errors:

"We do not get the chance to play every game that we put out."

which explains everything.

December 19, 2000, 17:22

quote:

Originally posted by gascooker on 12-19-2000 02:51 PM
Your point is further validated by Activision themselves, who said the following in a reply to an email I sent them about the game errors:

"We do not get the chance to play every game that we put out."

which explains everything.

if you somehow got to get your answer by the ceo, that is probably true

gascooker · December 19, 2000, 18:28

quote:

Originally posted by MarkG on 12-19-2000 04:22 PM

does that mean I am banned from the forum? I hope not -its my only form of hope
[This message has been edited by gascooker (edited December 19, 2000).]

Jen Dragon · December 20, 2000, 10:52

If you like it BUY IT, if you don't like it don't buy it. If its fun to play mission accomplished. I personaly have spent 50 bucks on games that get 5 stars in 3 or 4 magazines, Oh it the best game, I thoght great amazing graphics good story, played it for 2 days, never went back to it overall a nice piece of my collection but "I" dont play it. I on the other hand have played CTPII everynight for a little over 2 weeks and havent even finished one game yet and am having a blast. NOTE: I havent been plagued by the save game bug or I would be pissed. But I havent had any real bugs to speak of, patched flawlessly, no interuption to my saved game, I didn't even notice what the patch did exactly except increase my version number.

The Viceroy · December 20, 2000, 11:43

Gas Cooker

CTP2 does work !! and as I said in my response, if it has bugs (ie, functions that do not behave as per spec) then Activision are responsible for fixing them free of charge. If your version doesn't work, take it back to the shop and get it refunded !!

I actually agree that this method of software development is naff .. its known as DSDM .. basically the deadline is unmovable, but the functionality is reducable .. leads to patches with functionality, and customers wondering what the hell is going on ... personally, I prefer to be mega conservative with release dates, and then suprise everybody by finishing way before .. but sometimes in business, thats just not possible.

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"Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon

Fluffygreycat · December 20, 2000, 17:58

Bugs, yawn.

I've perused these boards and read the descriptions of bugs - even noted a few oddities myself - but I'm not impressed by those who claim that Activision has foisted some sort of crime upon the public.

99% of the bugs reported boil down to:

1. people with underpowered machines.
2. the scenarios [like the bugs in Alexander] which the T&C disclaimer say are not represented to be bug-free.
3. things that aren't bugs. [The AI being "weak" isn't a "bug". Ships of the Line not bombarding the land isn't a "bug". Pikemen killing artillery or musketeers shooting down aircraft isn't a "bug". The cities maxing out at 60 citizens isn't a "bug". These are "ways the game is designed to be that the complainant doesn't like".]

I've seen the fix list for patch 1.1 and I have had none of those problems. [Granted, I have not played multiplayer and a lot of the fixes are in this area.]

Perhaps Civ2 didn't crash on you because it was out for two years before you even bought it. I bought CTP1 "late" and it never crashed on me ONCE until I decided to modify the gigantic map and change the max number of civs and increase the city growth rate and...you get the idea. CTP2 crashed on me when I decided to try to trick it into letting play the Alexander scenario as the Romans. Other than that, I don't see what else I could have expected.

At this point, if Activision makes allies share maps every turn [ OR changes the manual and GL so it won't claim that allies are SUPPOSED to share maps each turn] I won't see much in the way of "official" or "supported" bugs at all.

teebruin · December 31, 2000, 02:03

quote:

Originally posted by Fluffygreycat on 12-20-2000 04:58 PM
Bugs, yawn.

99% of the bugs reported boil down to:

1. people with underpowered machines.
2. the scenarios [like the bugs in Alexander] which the T&C disclaimer say are not represented to be bug-free.
3. things that aren't bugs. [The AI being "weak" isn't

I must be in the 1% because I have a 700MHZ Athlon, Soundblaster 128, 128MB RAM and an 8MB ATI video board. I don't think the video is a problem because the opening movie runs just fine, I can run DVD's just fine, and I can run every other game I own just fine. I think you were just lucky if you got CTPII to run.

Bluevoss · December 31, 2000, 11:37

quote:

Originally posted by gascooker on 12-19-2000 02:40 PM
CTP2 can attempt to have more functionality than a NASA supercomputer for all I care...

Oh boy oh boy. If you only knew. You know those big blue horseshoe-shaped consoles all the launch crews sit behind? 64K. Trust me on this - I worked on the next computer system (Lockheed has managed to stall that project quite nicely). We had a goal of MATCHING software/hardware speeds built in the '60s. Well, with O2s, someone got the bright idea about using Java and we missed our benchmark! Of all the low-tech outfits I worked for, the NASA/Lockheed combo was the worst...

Bug-wise, I gotta admit that I was rather shocked to see that they still had that cute trick where ships can sail diagonally through land. I hated that in CTP, and its still in CTP2. It still catchs me every so often - I chase an enemy ship and have him cornered, and he does an edge-slip on me. I guess he uses rollers...

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Bluevoss-

Cyrius · December 31, 2000, 12:34

I agree Voss. That over-land thing is distrubing. They should let you build canals. Or just put a city there if you really have to bridge it.

Man, what you are saying about NASA makes me nervous. I thought they were supposed to be a high tech outfit? Guess not. Thats what happenes when your funding is cut, I guess. A shame, really.

Personally, FluffyCat, I don't need alied share-maps. just to remove the ZOC restrictions and Territory penalties, like CIV2 did. And the message system needs work (to hard to open and close messages the way the system is - use a toggle), and auto-centering on enemy moves needs some help. But besides this, I think its a pretty decent game. I am sad to see the entire space part of the game cut though. Oh well, can't have everything you want. And what the heck happened to the paratroopers? Why did that need to get cut?