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Old January 6, 2001, 20:04   #1
OmniGod
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I'm disgusted on the lack of intellect in CTP2 players
I don't mean to start a war, but I just don't understand why there are so many people out there who believe that every little "error" that you believe you have found should be fixed by activision. I agree that certain things, which directly affect the game (ex. the save game bug, or the patch not working on all computers) are something they should be held responsible to fix, asap. But as for the AI being too easy, or there not being enough sprites, or scenarios, or not being able to have more than 8 civs is something that is left to the players. If you don't like what is happening in the game at any given point, say you don't like that a phalanx can beat a tank (doesn't happen now, but just for arguements sake) then I think you should try to fix it to your liking. That's what the creation forum is for, come visit it. You'll see so many things that we didn't agree with, and are making changes so it suits us and a few others better. There's info how to do it yourself, accumulated by DarkKnight, mods by WesW and others, scenarios by Harlan and others, maps by me and others, utilites by Harlan, acitivision, Skorpion and many others. If you don't like something, the advantage to how Activision made this game is that you can change it to meet your own personal tastes. If you don't like how easy the game is on the hardest level then change that level to something more difficult (increase the AI science starts, the AI tactics, the AI diplomacy, the AI whatever). This game was designed to play have fun and improve... it's not stagnant. So if you haven't gotten the drift of this little letter, it's this "if you don't like it, fix it..." the people in creation are generally happy to help you, and maybe you've learned something that they've missed and can help their problems.... the game does need work, no question... but Civ III isn't out for a while yet, so let's make this game ours and when CTP3 is delivered to us, and after activision has checked out the forums and changes we've made... (you know they must... it's free work) then maybe we'll not have to change so much next time... do you want your two cents in the game, or do you just want to %&#*@ and complain??? I know where I stand....

Rich - the developer, the modifier... the improver


[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited January 06, 2001).]
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Old January 6, 2001, 20:17   #2
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Yes, well said. From a developers point of view you have covered many angles. You are intelligent. You have demonstrated patience, perseverance and general good character. From a gamers point of view, I'm sure that people like you are an asset. I believe that all constructive comments are needed whether they be pretty or not. What I don't belive in is contradiction. Especially contradiction that has no focus but to pull someone elses 'constructive' comments down. Lets here more constructive criticism, more constructive replies both opposing 'and' for CIV issues and less contradiction. Well done

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Old January 6, 2001, 20:24   #3
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OK, then fix the AI. Make it kill me once.

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Old January 6, 2001, 20:26   #4
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Just once?

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Old January 6, 2001, 22:01   #5
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"But as for the AI being too easy .... is left to the players. "

That's asking for too much from players. We didn't buy the game to be activision's unpaid programmers.

"That's what the creation forum is for, come visit it."

My impression was that the creation forum was to create scenarios, not to fix the game.

"I'm disgusted on the lack of intellect in CTP2 players "
That's a little too snooty, I think . CTP2 players are the guys who plonked down $60 or whatever, and have spent countless hours debugging the game for activision.
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Old January 6, 2001, 22:32   #6
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Both sides have valid points. There are too many bugs, and the AI was not tweaked very well. Luckily, I find tweaking half the fun. But I agree that activision, assuming their management isnt totally idiots, will be profiting from alot of hard work done by the mod'ers.

On the other side, too many people are complaining about things that are easily fixed or are unique to their style of play. The best part about CtP2 is that the files that control the game are simple text files. If people would take a few minutes to look at them they'd see that they can easily change things that they dont like. And as Omni stated, there are many that are happy to those that truly are interested in making the game better.

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Old January 6, 2001, 22:44   #7
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Alright, here is my theory on why CTP2 is easy. I believe most people on this forum are hard core Civer's and want a lot of challenge. I believe Activision is trying to appeal to a more mainstream crowd rather then to the hardcore civers. If Activision made CTP2 a challenge for hardcore Civers then the game would nearly be impossible for the mainstream crowd to play and a lot of sales would be lost. Lets face it, in reality people who are truly hardcore to the Civilization series are not that common. In fact, I know lots of people who play CTP2 but all of them play in moderation and find the game already a challenge when they do play. Well in the end everything is done for money, and the mainstream crowd brings in more money then the hardcore crowd.
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Old January 6, 2001, 23:00   #8
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quote:

Originally posted by colorme on 01-06-2001 09:01 PM
"But as for the AI being too easy .... is left to the players. "

That's asking for too much from players. We didn't buy the game to be activision's unpaid programmers.



If you bought the game to be entertained, then you have been to this point. Okay so the game is "easy" in your opinion now (is this due to you being superior at the game, you reading how the AI works or have you just honed your skills as a CTP player?) If it's because you've played 1000s of games, then maybe you should be making suggestions on how to improve it or create a mod of your own which aims at correcting the level of "ease". The general idea of my comments in this post have been that everyone seems to have complaints, but leaves the solutions up to activision to solve. I agree that there are certain complaints that are truely complaints and should fall on the desk of the creators. But just because you've learned how to beat the AI doesn't mean it's inferior than the previous CTP or Civ AI's it means you've either played long enough, or have read how the AI plays and plays according to that. A newbie would find this AI fairly challenging I would believe, but a seasoned veteran would think it's a push over. Thus in my mind it's those veterans who should be coming together to enhance the AI, make it unbeatable, possibly. I personally believe that no matter how hard the AI becomes, some people will be able to beat it. Can they make it infinitely hard? No.. can we adjust it to something more of our level... sure... that's the joy of Civ games... customizability (if that's how you spell it)...

quote:


"That's what the creation forum is for, come visit it."

My impression was that the creation forum was to create scenarios, not to fix the game.


That's part of what the creation forum does, the other part is create mods... the mods are used to improve the play of the game... which includes AI changes, unit changes, additional gov'ts, diplomacy etc. Scenarios is part of it, but the mods are more of what the creation forum does... and modifing is customizing.

quote:


"I'm disgusted on the lack of intellect in CTP2 players "
That's a little too snooty, I think . CTP2 players are the guys who plonked down $60 or whatever, and have spent countless hours debugging the game for activision.


Okay.. I agree intellect wasn't the word I was looking for, maybe something more along the lines of lack of vision. The game is meant to be a platform to start from... the What if scenario... the gave us the basic building blocks to customize, expand, and grow... but if we ask them and complain about the basics of the system what is gained... they change it and now there's a new base... did we gain anything... no.. just a general customization. Personally I like the freedom to change what I want, to how I want. If I believe the AI is weak... then I'll look into it and have the AI grow.... if I think thta battleships should be able to carry cruise missles... the change is made... it's that type of vision about the possibities of this game that make it great... if they said here and gave no ablility to change, then there's a real reason to complain, since nothing we can do can be done about it... then it's Activisions responsibity (such as PBEM or hotseat). That's what I meant by the thread title, it was not to say that the CTP2 players are stupid, but very closed about what possibilities activision has left for us. I say the game is perfect as released minus a few glitches, but the play of the game works, and almost everything can be edited. To me this game is exactly what I hoped for. Of course there is improvements to be made beyond what we as editors can do, but that's what CTP3 is for...

Rich

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Old January 6, 2001, 23:31   #9
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I don't think people should be slamed for saying the AI is easy. The programmer ****ed up here and that is the key. Saying, you should go fix it is frankly absurd and stupid. People didn't buy the game so they could immediatly change it. People except to have a good AI to fight them, and furthermore they think that Activision should have done it. It is not the people's job to make the AI harder, it is Activisions! Stop shifting the blame, and realize they messed up!
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Old January 7, 2001, 00:49   #10
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Do you "programmers" all stick around and cover each others' backs? Like some little close-knit, protective family? The person who started this thread should be shot. Calling people "stupid" because they don't just go and alter the game themselves is the very epitome of programmer arrogance. No wonder we consumers moan and complain about these people. Their arrogance knows no bounds, and neither does their lust for cutting corners. Nuff said
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Old January 7, 2001, 01:50   #11
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quote:

Originally posted by jkadabomb on 01-06-2001 09:44 PM
Alright, here is my theory on why CTP2 is easy. I believe most people on this forum are hard core Civer's and want a lot of challenge. I know lots of people who play CTP2 but all of them play in moderation and find the game already a challenge when they do play.


I also think this is true. I played Civ2 for a couple of years and then SMAC one time (the graphics and music were depressing) and I really enjoy those kinds of games but I'm not that great at them. I get beaten by the AI on the hardest levels and I don't have empires of 60 or 70 cities (this is partly because I'm not very aggressive). Sometimes I wish the AI was a little more intelligent in its strategy but for more challenge I can increase barbarian activity or raise the difficulty level.


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Old January 7, 2001, 02:13   #12
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I think you are mistaken in some of your comments David. Everyone who has posted a message in this thread has done something in one way or another to improve the game in some form. Whether in helping to edit game files, produce units, maps, or mods, or bringing attention to the game's weaknesses. I think they should be applauded for their efforts - and you too, for adding to the debate.

I do think Rich (the originator of this thread) is also mistaken though in his stance on the playability of the game being something a customer should have responsibility for. Customers do not intend to have to download patches and edit game files to produce a reasonable simulation. Yet, because you are here David, it means you are computer literate enough to have an interest in tooling around with your game - as I do. So from another perspective, Rich is correct in directing his comments to those of us who come to this board and discuss the game intelligently. He would not be correct in generalizing that notion of "consumer responsibility" beyond us computer literate folks.

If think the cause of the furor over CTP2's poor AI is the fear it may be "unfixable" by the legions of CTP2 fans who visit Apolyton. You see, if the problem were poor unit icons, lousy maps, and a poor tech tree alone (or all of these even), then we could take solace in their being fixed by the ingenious people we encounter on these boards - and without naming them, you know who they are if you are a regular visitor. Those kinds of problems are no match for the CTP team at Apolyton. They tranformed a stymied CTP1 into a playable and enjoyable game. They could do the same for CTP2.

But, there is a problem. In this problem lies all the "angst" of the board members who post about the AI and it lies within me as well. That is, what if the AI is not fixable because we don't have a way of understanding how to tool around with it?

Look at the threads on this AI issue. You will find the inevitable dead-end threads that deal with editing the AI files. By dead-end I mean that a discussion begins where people identify a line or two to edit and then people shrug because they aren't sure what the line means. When they edit the line of code they aren't sure changes actually affect the game. This is like a thick black cloud. In contrast, the mods by Wes and others that change unit,improvement,advance settings and the like take immediate and apparent effect in the game. The AI changes...lead to worry because they don't seem to do anything.

If people lose confidence in the ability to redress the AI issue through mods of their own or by the talented folks here, the game will simply perish and erode what has become a strong, friendly, and supportive community. The AI issue is the heart of the matter that erodes confidence in the game.

I do hope we find a way to change the AI in some significant way. I have made a variety of the suggested AI changes to my game that were posted in other threads (in the creation section) and I see at best a nominal improvement.

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Old January 7, 2001, 02:35   #13
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OmniGod, your opening sentence is where i 'first' fell off my chair..."If you bought the game to be entertained, then you have been to this point." <--- How long has the game been out? Can anyone tell me?


Also... "If it's because you've played 1000s of games, then maybe you should be making suggestions on how to improve it or create a mod of your own which aims at correcting the level of "ease" <--- If that's what YOU like to do, then go do it, don't let anyone else stop you, but that game was released for entertainment purposes in exchange for 'cash'.


And..."Personally I like the freedom to change what I want, to how I want. If I believe the AI is weak... then I'll look into it and have the AI grow.... if I think thta battleships should be able to carry cruise missles... the change is made..." <--- Well, can you fix the AI for us please?


And..."A newbie would find this AI fairly challenging I would believe, but a seasoned veteran would think it's a push over. Thus in my mind it's those veterans who should be coming together to enhance the AI, make it unbeatable, possibly. I personally believe that no matter how hard the AI becomes, some people will be able to beat it. Can they make it infinitely hard? No.."<--- That was the idea behind DIFFICULTYYYYYY LEVEEEEEEELS


And..."That's what I meant by the thread title, it was not to say that the CTP2 players are stupid, but very closed about what possibilities activision has left for us."<---That's not what you said !
You know what you are? You are a minority. You are one of a few that have an understanding of how the game works and enjoy fixing its bugs and like to fiddle with its workings. If that's what you want to do, then why is it that you expect everyone else to adopt the same attitude? Most people are regular joe's that baught the game, but are dissapointed that the AI is kinda lame, and it IS true. I haven't seen or heard many comments at all about any other problems, exept for the one or two trippers sooking about the graphics, but it's not a graphically orientated game, it's a strategy so that doesn't worry the vast majority, including myself. I think it's not too bad anyway. All I can see is people putting forward their gripe about the intelligence, and your comment about not being able to make the game mentally demading for all players is way out! The fact is that it HAS and it CAN, but it doesn't! So what's the problem? What's with the Epic? How did it get to you insulting not just peoples intellect but contradicting yourself by insisting the become programmers? how did it all get to that? What is your problem? Are you too good for everyone?
My point is, there is no point offering bandaid solutions. Especially solutions that no one give a flying rats a** about! All the majority want to do is unwrap the box and get something more advanced than the previous version. The AI is not only worse that the previous version but it has nothing on the CIV I played on my amiga. I WILL remind you, i am talking about the AI intelligence, so don't reply trying to tell me I'm mad coz i'm bagging the game. I love the game, the graphics is cool (enough) I love the borders, and I love the diplomacy (well I would if it got used) lets just say I love the concept behind the diplomacy.
Anyway, just quit being Mr I'm so smart and look how intelligent I am, and just let the consumers have their say, and what better place than the most popular CIV forum on the net? huh?


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Old January 7, 2001, 02:48   #14
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Omni - the reason why some are complaining so much is because some of their questions regardng modifications are not being answered by ones who are more knowledgable, such as Locustus, Harlan, Wes, or yourself.

For instance, regarding SLIC - what events or factors would require knowledge and maniuplation of SLIC? I have hardly ANY knowledge in computer programming and have only modified the text files.

So what's the use of taking up modification projects if some of their posted questions are not being answered?

I tried searching for previous posts for my answers, but none show up if the subject was covered at all.
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Old January 7, 2001, 11:40   #15
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In response to most of the above, I think the problem now is that no one is really tackling the problem with the AI. With that said, I'd like to see if there are a few people who will help/aid or constructively comment on fixing the AI. I've seen all these threads about how it doesn't attack in grooves, or it doesn't learn fast enough, or ... I will start a new thread in the creation forum about fixing the AI. If you have a constructive complaint (something that can realistically be fixed) I invite you to post it and we'll see what we can do about it... there are possibilities and since I started this, I think that I'm not a bad person to go after the solution. I will say that I'm not a programmer, I'm just an average optometry major and that I'm no different than everyone else in the forum. So if this takes me a month to solve to 1/2 the populations satisfaction then great....

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Old January 7, 2001, 12:16   #16
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Omni,

You're right that we should have an 'AI mod' thread (hell, even a whole section actually). Lots of modifications to the AI hae already been suggested, and it is not clear how much these affect the AI. I fiddled with the AI database and SLIC files for quite a few weeks, and haven't been able to come up with anything satisfactory. The explanation about the files posted by Mr. Ogre was good, but it was woefully inadequate - I understand though that this is not his primary responsibility.

But fixing the terrible AI is their primary responsibility! And that doesn't seem to be happening.

Sorry, didn't mean to be rough to you in my previous post.
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Old January 7, 2001, 14:41   #17
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Omni, I appreciated the modifications you have made in the past and what others have done. I have implemented many of them.

And again, I thank you for putting my North America map on your website.

I have not complained while NOT doing anything. In fact, I have modified the AI where I know how, and have seen a little improvement - nothing dramatic though.

I just wish I knew what modifications for effects or factors require manipulation of SLIC and not just the text files.
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Old January 7, 2001, 16:04   #18
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I did try to modify civII and CTP2 and to the best of my knowledge, there are very few differences. Sure CTP2 has more things that aren't doing anything (should have been removed before shipping, or at least tell us what isn't working) but the amount of change for either, is approximately the same.. isn't it? All the things that were mentioned

quote:

sound effect of a unit, the civilopedia reference, the appearance, the capabilities and the preference for AI research.

are very much customisable in CTP2, you just have to know where to look, just as was the case when civII was in it's infancy... when CTP2 is 2 years old it too should fall to the whims of it's players as civII has. Now when civIII comes out, people will whine and only years later will they be happy.

Rich - break over... back to work

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Old January 8, 2001, 01:27   #19
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Someone mentioned how maybe CTP2 is a "beginer" game, and that the AI wasn't meant to be a real challenge. Well, "Impossible" level should mean its "Impossible" to win. In CTP2, Impossible means Eventual.

Yeah, the players can fix their games, but really, tweeking AI can take hours and hours! Unless you build a set of test cases to run your AI over and over on, how can you be sure what you are changing even makes a difference.

I'd love to put the Civ2 engine up against the CTP2 engine and let them play a game between themselves. It would be a Civ2 world. While I always found Civ2 a little too aggressive, CTP2 is asleep.



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Old January 8, 2001, 01:55   #20
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Customization is the key here and Civilization 2 MGE has the locksmith setup to get what you want.

For instance, I can customize the sound effect of a unit, the civilopedia reference, the appearance, the capabilities and the preference for AI research.

CTP2 gives me so little customization I stopped playing because it lacked that replay value, which for a customizer is most important.

I have faith Activision will provide these capabilities but until then, I'll just wait patiently and play more Civ2:MGE.
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Old January 8, 2001, 10:35   #21
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I am disgusted with the title of this thread!

When you say you want to fix the AI issue and such, I thank you very much. But there are people here (like me) who have other things to do than to fix a game so that it is more what EVERYBODY wants (and not just me alone!).
Sure they gave us tools and ways to CHANGE the game, I dont think they should be meant to FIX it, I admit they can be used to fix the game but it was a very evil intention from Activision if they meant them to be this way.
But if you want to fix it, go ahead.
Maybe you can make Ctp2 something I can play again. I dont have the time nor the will to do so and many others agree with me here.

I am just angry and annoyed that Activision missed their chance to release a real good game. The game WOULD BE good, but again I feel it is unbalanced and unfinished. And no, its not just ME who thinks so!

And I dont want to participate in any alpha versions of AI fixing mods. I dont want to hear comments like: Change this and that setting to 'a' and 'b' and you are fine.
I just want to download a zip that says: "The ultimate AI fix - install it and try to survive!". And when I install that I really feel the game has a life and AI is not so passive and stupid and whatnot. Else I am fed up with the game and anything that relates to it.

So I say good bye to this forum and good bye to Activision.

Good bye,
Ata

P.S.: remove that stupid title.
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Old January 8, 2001, 22:13   #22
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Ata,

Here here! I too have many other things I need to do other than fixing a sub-standard AI. For instance I have a lady I like to pamper.

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Old January 9, 2001, 01:29   #23
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I really do not consider myself to lack in the intellect department, to be honest. And while I am no Einstein, I do have an IQ higher then your average vegetable. That being said, I do find myself moderately offended by the topic presented.

When we bought this game, we figured we'd spend the $50, install the game, and be able to play it. And for the most part, that is true. However, as has been related in plenty of other threads, things like saved game bugs and multiplayer resynchs really put a damper on it. I am a student in college and barely have the time to complete my studies and maintain something akin to a life. I did not spend my money to sit and make mods to this game. The man I live with is a software engineer and he gets paid to design and implement a product which works and satisfies his clients.

While I appreciate the flexibility of the game with respect to making modifications, I do not believe that such modifications should be necessary to have a mostly enjoyable experience with the product. I feel like Activision rushed this one. And I do not feel they did it because they were idiots, malevolent or suchlike. I believe they did it because they are a business. And because, regardless of the product they released, there were enough of us waiting that we would buy it anyway.

If anything, it's an ethical thing and probably not appropriate to this venue. What is also inappropriate, however, is the title of this topic and the sentiment behind it. If Activision were sending out cheques to people who spent time modifying the game to suit playability, I might be overjoyed at this prospect. Alas, we send them the cheques instead for putting out a product that would have benefitted from a few more weeks in production.

Please, do not insult our lack of intellect here. Most of us simply wish to play a good game. Not write one.
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Old January 10, 2001, 01:56   #24
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Mods, tweaks, edits are very popular these days.

However I must scream out loud for those who just want to play a good game, and not have to spend hours downloading improvements, altering text files, and the such.

Yes, tweaking a game can be fun.

But sometimes people just want to play a game. Not play game-designer.

The bottom line is, I am dissappointed with CTP2, and so are many other players.
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Old January 10, 2001, 01:59   #25
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Isn't THAT the truth. They did so well with the new stuff, but then bunged up the old stuff (AI, population).



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Old January 19, 2001, 17:04   #26
Darkknight
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Actually it's better to have people complain a bit try to fix it yourself first though if you're still confused then come ask us give us ideas on what to do.
By the way the creation forum should be used for things that can be fixed by us theres a bugs forum isn't there any purely program fixes you want go there please if though if you think there's any chance it might be fixed using slic or anything then come to us.

Also about my collection obviosly i cant find out how to do it all by myself so feel free to mail me or reply to me anything mod you've made and details on how you did it and i'll put it in.
Cool new civ3 site by the way in firaxis.
seems civ3 will be using sprites as well worse for modders i miss the day when you could open up paint and edit a civ2 unit oh nostalgia cool warrior unit grrrr.
Gondhi_dm@hotmail.com

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Old January 19, 2001, 17:06   #27
Darkknight
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Sorry connection really bugged up and there is a suggestions forum for bug reports.
[This message has been edited by Darkknight (edited January 19, 2001).]
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Old January 19, 2001, 17:08   #28
Darkknight
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and again

[This message has been edited by Darkknight (edited January 19, 2001).]
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Old January 19, 2001, 22:28   #29
Mike the Nuke
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I feel smarter and smarter everyday. I didn't 'waste' my $50 on this game! It didn't have what I wanted and this forum shows it has little of what others wanted (unfortunately they 'blew away' $50 for the game to find that out).

Once again, I have to thank this site and all the "unknowing, (possibly) unwilling" Activision CTP2 game testers for forking the 'forking up' the bucks for the game so that I could save my money!

I have much, much, much more important things (and better things) to do in my life (and spare time) than fix someone elses 'screw-ups', especially those in some 'stupid' computer game. I'll just wait (and save my money) for something else that is better prepared and better supported.
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Old January 20, 2001, 01:40   #30
Andydog
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Absolutely shocking.

Those who have forked out their hard earned cash on this game are now expected to go in and improve it's woefully inadequate AI. And those who don't are stupid.

To OmniGod and everyone in Activision:
I was disappointed with the game as it is, and now to read this. It's the final straw that has made my mind up to return the game to the shop.

I think it's about time that you heard a few home truths. It is not reasonable to expect joe public to fix the game's problems and shortfalls. You produced the game, you should do a proper job! Not only is the AI pathetic, but the game has major bugs!

It's a real shame, because it has such potential.

I won't be buying any more of your products; you appear to have no qualms about releasing a half arsed job, and now expect us to finish it. It reeks of un-professionalism.
I hope you are ashamed of yourselves.
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