a STATEMENT OF ACTIVISION TO THE CIV COMMUNITY - Page 3

JBK · January 22, 2001, 16:45

We need to get our own professional developers to help us with our bug problems, because it is obvious that this capitalists are just in it to make money. I know...I am being rude but these money greedy little piglets, who havent yet mature to see past profit, need to realize that when you drop the consumers point of view or suggestions you also drop that consumer which lowers your profit. Originally I would back the developers of the game, but that is not an original statement, that document is a whole lot of BS and should be printed out, put in holy water, and burned. The ones who donot see what they do with the release of such a document, do not know how much it pisses us as consumer of when the tell us that there will not be any patches because the company is to cheap to spare the labor or that the developers could just be to lazy and not have the will power to make simply/complex systems to fix their bugs!!!

roalan · January 22, 2001, 17:52

quote:

Originally posted by wittlich on 01-20-2001 06:36 PM
I just signed on to check the forum....And I can't believe it!

Activision MARKETS and SELLS a MULTIPLAYER compatible game - CTP2 - which turns out NOT to be Multiplayer compatable AT ALL. We gripe, we complain, we report the problems/bugs....and their answer? Tough Titties, we're through with this game and we're moveing on to other horizons.

I've just gone through my "collection" of computer games, and guess what? I actually own 22 different games by Activision!!!

Well NO MORE.

Activision, you ROYALLY SCREWED the customers that have in the past flocked to the Activision name - I realize that I have been one of your flock...until now.

How do you expect to get away with this type of criminal activity - False advertisement for one? You are not actually expecting your sales revenues to increase in the near future?!?!

Mark my word Activision, Firaxis/Hasbro is taking note. Let's see how well they will treat their customers with the eventual release of CIV3...I have every confidence that we will not be treated the same them!!

So, on a last note, let's all move on over to the APOLYTON CIV3 Site forum, since the CTP2 is just a waste of time!

PS: Apolyton, you have done a great job cutting through the BS and for that I'm thankful and will remain a avid follower of your site

Ciao!

Have you folks forgotten Hasbro's BOTF and how there was NO support and everyone said that they would NEVER buty a Hasbro product again. How short are your memories??

Atahualpa · January 22, 2001, 18:25

About money: I dont think they get the full $30 from the game. I guess they get more like $10 from every box. That makes $5,000,000 then. Still a lot I admit.

Nevertheless look at Starcraft. They are releasing patch 1.8 in the next couple of days. A game that is about 2 years old (correct me if I am wrong).
Or Half-Life where there is still support and all and in fact Half-Life (or its modification counter-strike) is the most played ego-shooter on the net!!! And Half-Life is another 2 years old!

Just some examples of how you can enlarge your community by providing continous support. But well companies dont get money when fans play their game.
If you would have to pay $5 for every month that you play Ctp2 I guess there would be LOTS more support for it!!!

ATa

Cellerto · January 22, 2001, 18:37

Well I guess this means I will NEVER ever again buy an Activision published game. I do understand that there are reasons why they aren't going to patch the game to the point where multiplayer is playable. The bottom line is that it isn't really cost effective for them. The reason I will never ever again give them any of my money is the fact that as a company they are not capable of shipping a product that is bug free enough to be enjoyable to me. I guess they wanted to wait long enough to announce this so that all the suckers that bought their game wouldnt be able to get refunds at EB. Well fine Activison you got my money this time, but never again. You'll have to find some other sucker to buy your unplayable game (in multiplayer I mean, and if the AI was any kind of challenge without rediculous cheating then I might not mind as much that multiplayer is complete crap).

Yet another annoyed customer.

CC_Fully_Completely · January 22, 2001, 19:02

a lawsuit?

guys, get real.

Oh, and way to go Activision, you look like a company with its head up its ass.

Dogberry · January 22, 2001, 19:13

I've been a PC gamer since the days of Apple II, counting back the games that I have and there were quite a few Activision games, the last one being CTP1.

I am always a big sucker on civ game but after CTP1, I have decided to be less impulsive when buying an Activision game. One thing that puzzle me most is Activision's attitude in thinking that they can put out a dodgy game, full of bugs, has a not very smart AI and half the features as promised and just let the general gaming public to create their own mods and patches. This is like people selling Stereo TV which only makes Mono sound and then tell their customers that they have to solder a few more chips onto the TV to make it sounds in Stereo.

I understand that it is fun to be able to modify the game, but that should be done out of curiosity or as a hobby and not as a neccessity in order to make the game works. There are many gamers out there like me who don't have the time nor the patience to search for ways to fix a product which is supposed to do what it says it can do and cost me 99 hard earn Aussie dollars.

Lucky I have hold out this time and save myself a bit of money and frustration. And like many others, I will not buy another Activision games again. I now hope that Civ III will come soon and be as enjoyable as Civ II.

Cheers,

Dogberry.

JimMac · January 22, 2001, 19:22

As a keen CTP1 LAN multiplayer fan I was looking forward to CTP2.

But after repeatedly reading on Apolyton about what appears to be even worse instability problems than those in CTP1, I decided not to buy it until the next patch, which I was sure would soon be released to fix these problems.

I know nothing about programming, but how hard is it to write stable network code for a game such as CTP2? Look at all the games that get it right such as Warcraft AOK, 7 Kingdoms, C&C, HOMM, etc etc. Beats me, but I cant see how the demands of CTP are any harder to deal with.

Now that Activision are moving on to their next great game, I doubt if I shall buy CTP2, no matter how much the price is reduced in EB.

Disappointing.

So, farewell then to Mr Ogre and all his gang. I hope that someone in Activision learns from this, but probably not.And neither will we, as we rush out to buy the next hyped game.

Jim

(Markos, I guess you can close the CTP2 multiplyer forum now?

)

January 22, 2001, 20:17

"Have you folks forgotten Hasbro's BOTF and how there was NO support and everyone said that they would NEVER buty a Hasbro product again. How short are your memories??"

roalan - What is the game "BOTF" by Hasbro? I've never heard of it. The main games I pay by Hasbro are CIVII and RISK.

WesW · January 22, 2001, 21:53

I share everyone's displeasure and anger over Activision's decision to abandon support for the game, especially when many people are having problems with saved games and such. I am afraid that the Ctp games never really had the support of the Activision higher-ups, and I suspect that the decision to pull the plug on support was made weeks ago. I have talked to people who have visited Mr. Ogre's website, and he has already taken a position at Blizzard on an un-named project. Make of that what you will.

However, please don't give up on the game. If you visit the creation forums, you will see some amazing things that have already been done with the game by the people here, and we are just scratching the surface of what can be done. For those of you who don't have the game, wait until you can get a good deal on it if you can, but I would strongly recommend getting this game. Regardless of what you think of it out of the box, I believe that it has awesome potential, and that we will be unlocking that potential in the months to come.

January 22, 2001, 21:58

Wes, can you do something about multiplayer thru a mod?

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

Chris B · January 22, 2001, 22:02

Know this, all you sinners at Activision. You've given up everthing you've put hard work into for the last year or so. You've all forgotten your own names, but we sure haven't. We here at apolyton ( I think i can speak for everyone) will continue to get something out of your game with or without your support. Good luck in these "OTHER PROJECTS"!

Mike the Nuke · January 22, 2001, 22:18

quote:

Originally posted by marster on 01-21-2001 01:55 AM
Tell activision what you think.
http://www.activision.com/support/email.asp

-mario

This could be a good idea. I already sent an email using this hyper-link. I first received the 'automated response', then an actual response. Your emails WILL be read and responded to IF you are courteous and professional. I suggest stating 'postivies' you find or hoped to find in the game. Then state the negatives in a 'positive way' (ie don't '*****' at them or tell them how bad they SUCK in your opinion). Close your email with a 'positive note and state that you are anxiously hoping for a response. Your email, by itself, may not get them back in the
game' of fixing/patching/upgrading the CTP2 game, but emails in mass will or can help. You are not mailing to the BS programers at the support email address (ie those programmers who only came up with excuses). An email or two to these support sites often will be read and passed on with little out come towards change. But, 100's (or 1000's) can make a difference (providing it is not from the same person/email address). They are a company trying to make money. If they are flooded with emails that are similary related, they are bound to take notice. Their financial 'livelyhood' could be at stake.

Things that people on this site want or wanted:

1. Better AI intelligence
2. Bugs fixed (there were/are many {it appears})
3. Hot Seat/ PBEM
4. Multiplayer fixes
5. Others

I recommend that we all team up together. You may not (personnally) have an ineterest in Hot Seat/PBEM or AI intelligence, but stull should voice your request for those additions/improvements. As a team, we can (no guarentees) make a difference. If each of us, on the other hand, only gripes for his/her own deal, we will surely lose all chance. Also, try to make suggestions on how they could get some items in the game. I'm not talking about being a programmer. As an example, I stated to them how they had Hot Seat/PBEM in CTP-1 (it seemed to work OK). In CTP-2, because of the (supposed) improved diplomacy with AI players, these options could not be dealt with. I suggested that they might try a patch that by-passes the 'new' AI diplomacy stuff whenever players chose Hot Seat/PBEM modes, as we are not utilizing AI's (as much) but rather human opponets. This could fix the multiplayer problems too (although I'm not sure of all of them as I do not currently own the game).

Again, there are no guarentees, but if I had spent $50 (or more in some cases)on thsi game, I wouldn't want to give up until I expended all options. Yes, there are some guys out there who program mods for all these games. I've read the boards where many of these mods work fairly well(if you have an interest in what the mods are trying to accomplish), yet have bugs and crashes of their own. In these cases, Activision (or other game manufactures) provide ZERO warrenties and ZERO support (not that any of us is currently excited about Activision's latest support). These mods don't normally fix 'bugs' or add options like Hot Seat/PBEM. Also these guys make most of these mods for free downloads. It takes a lot of work (I'm sure), and if the going gets too tough, they may give up, as they get little in return for their efforts except for 'ego boosters' for their good ideas.

Imran Siddiqui · January 23, 2001, 01:06

quote:

Front Office Football Central is reporting that EA Sports has no plans to issue a patch for its NFL GM sim, Front Office Football 2001. Despite claims from users that own Voodoo based video cards that the game is unplayable due to instabilty problems, the company issued a statement that the it could find no technical problems that were in need of a patch. An EA representative also stated that the company simply had no additional funds to continue to support Front Office Football 2001.

Steve, interestingly, the FOF caught our eye and not the CtP

.

Yeah, this PISSES me off! How many patches do they make for Madden, NHL, Golf? But when it comes to a niche market, they bail! ****ing big gaming companies

!

January 23, 2001, 01:29

Hey maybe we could burn Activision in effigy and all dance around it chanting "Death to Activision!"

It sometimes helps to act out

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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

LittleWing · January 23, 2001, 14:49

All these discussions remind me of the ones we had with CTP1. I tried, with others, to make some new things for this game, but when we saw the poor support it had (slic and AI modification support mostly), I totally gave up on this game, though I knew it had great potential.

I see that things have not changed a lot and I'm happy I waited until now to make up my mind : I'm waiting for civ3 !

ElitePersian · January 23, 2001, 19:10

I have to say im very pissed off, yet happy. Im happy because now I know 100% that Activision is going to to bankrupt thanks to a stupid decision by someone who thinks that abandonning ctp2 will actually "save" them money. This is gonna cost them BIG TIME cause all customers are gonna abandon Activision just like Activision abandonned all customers. I look forward to Activision's bankruptcy.

PS - we should be mad at ourselves too - Fool me once, shame on you, Fool me twice, shame on me.
Activision screwed us over with CTP1, we screwed ourselves over wiht CTP2 (by buying it from Activision).
[This message has been edited by ElitePersian (edited January 23, 2001).]

JBK · January 24, 2001, 01:53

quote:

Originally posted by roalan on 01-22-2001 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wittlich on 01-20-2001 06:36 PM
I just signed on to check the forum....And I can't believe it!

Activision MARKETS and SELLS a MULTIPLAYER compatible game - CTP2 - which turns out NOT to be Multiplayer compatable AT ALL. We gripe, we complain, we report the problems/bugs....and their answer? Tough Titties, we're through with this game and we're moveing on to other horizons.

I've just gone through my "collection" of computer games, and guess what? I actually own 22 different games by Activision!!!

Well NO MORE.

Activision, you ROYALLY SCREWED the customers that have in the past flocked to the Activision name - I realize that I have been one of your flock...until now.

How do you expect to get away with this type of criminal activity - False advertisement for one? You are not actually expecting your sales revenues to increase in the near future?!?!

Mark my word Activision, Firaxis/Hasbro is taking note. Let's see how well they will treat their customers with the eventual release of CIV3...I have every confidence that we will not be treated the same them!!

So, on a last note, let's all move on over to the APOLYTON CIV3 Site forum, since the CTP2 is just a waste of time!

PS: Apolyton, you have done a great job cutting through the BS and for that I'm thankful and will remain a avid follower of your site

Ciao!

Have you folks forgotten Hasbro's BOTF and how there was NO support and everyone said that they would NEVER buty a Hasbro product again. How short are your memories??

It doesnt matter how short our memories are, what does matter is that we all probably have short attention spands and that means that we get bord real easily and that we need to always be doing something. That will always keep us coming back for another great game and to exscape from our endless struggle to keep our selfs occupied.

Bluevoss · January 24, 2001, 02:08

I guess what pisses me off is how the whole industry seemed to work against the gamer in this one. Bradley games made a guide, but doesn't even touch on how the files might be modified (and omits, of course, some of the glaring bugs). Some guidebook - they were just a mouthpiece for Activision.

And then there were all the reviews. All this crap about "fine addition to the civ line" and such. How long did these guys play - 10 minutes? Or did they just read the back of the box. How could you try to review the game and NOT see some of the glaring bugs (diplomacy, population, AI)? Must be tough to cram yourself AND a word processor down into Activision's pocket like that.

I figure to hell with it. I'm just going to go back to Civ2:TOT or whatever else strikes my fancy. And when the next activision card is sent to my house, I'll just write something about CTP2 in red on it (along with some nasty words) and mail it back.

Not again, thanks.

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Bluevoss-

Alpha Wolf · January 24, 2001, 02:30

if anyone might want a little insight to the mindset at activision, take a look at the comments in tut2_main.slc. Looks like they knew they had some problems. I would cut and paste of the tastier pieces but i think Mark would kill me if i posted that kind of language. BTW, do not read the comments if you are easily offended.

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History is written by the victor.

Keygen · January 24, 2001, 11:22

What a crap!

quote:

Opening up the extensive customizability options required a level of complex code changes as well. As in all software development projects, some features from Call to Power were dropped or cut as the project unfolded, including PBEM and Hot Seat.

We have been reviewing the posts by various forum members calling for additional patches to make the AI more challenging for them, to add PBEM and Hotseat back in, and various other requests. These requests, which sound simple, are actually long, complex feature additions that would require up to 3-4 months of programming and testing time. This is not feasible, as the Call to Power II team is moving on to other projects. So there will be no additional patches, enhancements or scenarios coming from Activision. Additionally, there are no immediate plans to make an expansion or sequel.

Your excuses are rediculous!
What do you mean some features were dropped or cut?
And what do you mean by long, complex features?
Who ever said that programing and developing software was an easy and not a complex work?
There are some other game development companies out there who respect theirselves and put a great effort and hard work to fix all of their bugs and present even with a delay an acceptable game.
I work for a company which is an official testing center for Microsoft's and Lotus' programs. It is considered one of the best for both Microsoft and Lotus.
I work as a tester there and we have some software engineers too mainly for the Lotus' products and I know quit good the develpment cycle of a program. It includes a stage (the last) which is called support!
Anyway the good work comes from the engineers and the testers. Most of the problems, like features that were dropped off, features not well designed that were qualified as by design, bugs that are hard to be fixed comes from the "suits" due to time pressure of release. Well I guess this is acceptable as after the release many patches, fixes and service packs become available.
Windows 2000 took 3 years of design, programming and testing before they were released.
And a year after the release they still support it with several fixes, addons and a service pack and possible another one will follow. And it's far more complex than Call to Power 1 & 2. It took you 2 years to release it and some months to stop the support, close the case and live the program with many annoying bugs that lead even to crushes!
That is probably the definition of unprofessionalism. The way some small companies follow and end up to get sold or closed! You have certainly made yourself unreliable to the most of the civ funs after your decision not to realese a patch to fix the bugs!
Now I understand why many players call your company Crapavision or Craptivision!

quote:

None of these decisions were taken lightly, however, we feel that in the end, we have delivered a game that met the design goals of the project: an empire-building game that delivers new diplomatic features, more realistic combat, better empire management options, a new interface, and a customizable gaming engine to extend the life of the game. We thank all of you for your dedicated support and enthusiasm over the last four years. We look forward to seeing the results of the various mods and scenarios that the community is working on.

Activision

None of these decisions were taken lightly? Are you fooling us?
And from your last words it is completely obvious that you don't care about the community at all! You are just thinking that the modifiers will do the job for you and get away with it! What an arrogance!
A company's survivance is dependented on its good marketing.
You surely don't have a good one.

Well you will certainly do Firaxis far more rich with this decision

MidKnight Lament · January 24, 2001, 12:23

quote:

Originally posted by Alpha Wolf on 01-24-2001 01:30 AM
if anyone might want a little insight to the mindset at activision, take a look at the comments in tut2_main.slc. Looks like they knew they had some problems. I would cut and paste of the tastier pieces but i think Mark would kill me if i posted that kind of language. BTW, do not read the comments if you are easily offended.

I can't believe they let it ship with all that language in there.

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- MKL ... "And a sun that doesn't set but settles" - Augie March
Shameless Plug: http://www.poetic-license.org ............. All welcome.
[This message has been edited by MidKnight Lament (edited January 24, 2001).]

Grumbold · January 24, 2001, 12:26

I expressed my reluctance to get involved with another Activision marketed game months ago but bought CtP2 anyway. Sadly their corporate attitude seems very focussed on forcing the development team to make cuts to maintain development schedules, releasing incomplete or untested code, issuing a quick patch if it won't cost much to fix a few glaring problems, closing down projects and moving on. They are certainly not the only ones guilty of doing so, but in recent years have been the most consistent in behaving this way. I wonder how much they will have to spend to counteract the negative publicity to their brand name?

Martina · January 24, 2001, 16:01

quote:

Originally posted by Grumbold on 01-24-2001 11:26 AM
I expressed my reluctance to get involved with another Activision marketed game months ago but bought CtP2 anyway.

(...)

I wonder how much they will have to spend to counteract the negative publicity to their brand name?

Not one single dollar. Why should they care ? Should they announce CTP3 in 6 months of now, the hype will be re-created by Activision and the Internet community, and you will buy again. Together with thousand others who do not belong to the Internet community and dozens of all those complaining here who will buy even though they flame Activision now.

All of us will be buying Civ III completely independet whether it's going to be a balanced game or not. And directly afterwards, people like you and me will start flaming Firaxis. Again, this will have only a minor impact on shipments. Why ? Because in the gaming industry, it's not repeat purchase what counts, but trial purchase. You are not buying Coke or Pringles - you are buying each product ONCE.

This is not marketing, this is just cleverly utilizing the stupidity of general consumers - like you and like me.

Looking forward to 1000 flaming posts as answers on this message. Again, it will not change one single purchase decision for CTP2 whatever game is currently out there made by Activision.

wheathin · January 24, 2001, 16:32

I think Martina has a good point: even if we have purchased dozens of computer games, we are all continually buying a new product for the first time. We look for clues to quality (one thing a slavish devotion to the name of Sid does provide: a mark of decent quality) and read reviews. But each purchase is a gamble. The game makers can't test a game on every combination of hardware - there is always a risk that an otherwise stable game just won't work on *your* machine.

So test a game, ask your friends, read the online forums, don't buy the first week a game is out, and read reviews. Activision folded its tent quickly enough on CtP (sure, two patches, but it needed more!)
The solution is not to gripe about it here. Instead, go to sites where the *next* Activision game is being discussed, and remind the readers of Activision's history of releasing half-baked games and then abandoning them.

ucel · January 25, 2001, 05:14

quote:

Originally posted by wheathin on 01-24-2001 03:32 PM
So test a game, ask your friends, read the online forums, don't buy the first week a game is out, and read reviews.

There were more than ten reviews of CTP2 on Apolyton. There was nothing about bugs inside, and almost all of them gave very high notes to the game (70-80% or even more). Won't you buy the game in such case?
Besides, what do you mean 'test a game'. There is no trial version and I think no more support means no trial version at all. :-(

ucel

Keygen · January 25, 2001, 05:14

Well, I like computer games a lot as you do and I prefer to buy the original game rather a cheap copy of it. So I bought CTP2 just because I loved playing CTP1!
But I must admite that CTP2 hasn't the "feel" of CTP1 but if a good patch had released including some features included in CTP1, fix those bugs, change the design of some anoying elements as the Message tab or the extra window for city management or better AI challenge it would be far more better than CTP1.
And that's the idea of releasing a continue to a sucessful game. To add new features and make it a better experience than the previous one.
So if CTP3 or any civ type game comes from Activision I would certainly first get it from a friend, hire it from a store or buy a cheap copy of it before I even thing of buying the original.
There are many great games out there that might be worth more to buy them than the Activision's future craps!

Grumbold · January 25, 2001, 06:42

The reviews here and elsewhere were pretty positive in the first week and most of the bugs came to light later (no review mentions any bugs to my knowledge.) If I encounter bugs myself within the first week of playing I have no hesitation whatsoever in returning the faulty software to the store. That is certainly within my rights in the UK no matter what the store might think its return policy is. With CtP2 it took a bit too long, partly because they did announce a patch would be released(so I suppose, in a sense I got something approaching value for money if it took 20 hours play to become dissatisfied with a £30 game.)

wheathin · January 25, 2001, 11:38

ucel - you could 'test' it if there's a demo (there wasn't in this case), or by playing a friend's copy.

I think the one thing Martina is mistaken about is that Activision's ability to do this to consumers reflects on the stupidity of the consumer. Rather, it reflects on the fundamental imbalance in the computer games market where consumers have substantially-less-than-perfect information, and where software publishers, equipment makers, and retailers have effectively prevented any recourse for a disgruntled user. Standards for hardware integration (video cards, drivers, etc.) are flimsy things - is it the fault of the game designers or the hardware makers when the game runs on 85% of machines, but not on yours?

It's not like the software is "defective" - it just can't be designed to run on all machines. And, while the obvious solution would be for retailers to allow returns of software, retailers know that software is easy to copy - they are not about to risk having tons of opened boxes returned to them after consumers have bought the game and shared it with friends. Are computer games sold on consignment to retailers - if there's overstock or returns, who eats them? Allowing returns might only come out of the retailer's pocket, especially if all you have to do is say "this don't work, dude" and you get your money back.

CapTVK · January 25, 2001, 14:09

quote:

Originally posted by wheathin on 01-25-2001 10:38 AM
Are computer games sold on consignment to retailers - if there's overstock or returns, who eats them? Allowing returns might only come out of the retailer's pocket, especially if all you have to do is say "this don't work, dude" and you get your money back.

Wheathin,
Activision will take unsold overstock back from the retailers (at least for the large retailers or distributors). Check the Y10-K reports and the filings of Activision at the SEC for details.

So if you bought CTP2 at a large retail chain and returned within a certain period it will come out of Activision's pockets.

BlueO · January 25, 2001, 15:17

Welp, I thought I put in my 2 cents.

I keep hearing about ctp2 being broken, but there's only 2 things wrong with this game I can see. First, the diplomacy appears to be bugged... like trading for advances or cities, and nothing happen. Not a big deal for me fortunately, since I only play the game for the war aspect.

Secondly, the AI is lacking. Actually, the game AI itself seems well written, it just has one design flaw. The AI doesn't know how to mass troops and do a effective offensive. Otherwise, its quite good, but the whole fun of the game for me, is to have a nice big war against the AI. With the AI's lacking ability in doing an offensive strike, the whole game is just plain boring. Again, luckily for me. I found the Apolyton site, and eventually found a way to force the AI to mass troops and attack the player. So that solved that problem.

Actually, there's a third major bug in the game, the inability to load a saved mod game. Again fortunately, there's a workaround for that too.

So I guess I'm saying, CTP2 started out as the worst game I've ever played, in the end, it turned out to be the best, since it's the only civ type game I know that allows the player to do extensive modding. The only other game I still play today is Starcraft. Spent a lot of time playing Starship Trooper and Super defense maps on that.

(for peole who don't know Starcraft, it also allowed extensive modding...but unlike CTP2, Starcraft have a really good and fun AI)

As for Activision dropping support, again I don't care since the game pretty much works all around. No games will ever be absolutly perfect or totally bug free. But ctp2 as is, is good enough...