Using Diplomats Effectively

poppawoppa · February 5, 2000, 01:43

For some time, I have had little use for diplomats, except to establish embassies so I could have inside intelligence.
However, recently I was playing a Diety game where I built quite a few diplomats as a way of having some on hand to bribe a stream of barbarians which were cursing (or cruising?) the land and seas. During the mid game, the hordes seemed to come to a stop, and as I was trying to conquer a good size city (with less troops than I should have had), I sent the dips from my nearby cities to see if I could get the "walls to fall down." Imagine my surprise when the 3rd or 4th dip got the walls.

Another time, I had sent a dip to a city (in early game) and knocked out the wall on the first try. My question is:
Is there a specific sequence to what the dip will be able to sabotage? Like, if the city had a barracks, temple and granary, would the dip sabotage the targets in the order they are listed on the city improvements schedule?

Another question: When I had successfully stolen a tech from a French city, the next dip didn't even get the option to steal tech for quite a long time. I noticed that also in the recent game, I got a couple techs from the two nearest cities, but then my dips were unable to even get the chance to steal for a number of turns (maybe even until I had completed the tech that I was researching), and after that, I could get the offer to steal tech again. How does that work?

I know with spies you can even direct them to try to steal a specific advance....but it seems to me that even then you can't steal from the same civ/city for a few turns, since the citizens are even more vigilant about spy stealing for some period of time. Is this your experience too?

Several posters here say the dips and spys are too powerful. I agree the spy has some very very good options....but, I haven't really gotten the lowdown on the power of the diplomat yet. Comments, anyone?

War4ever · February 5, 2000, 05:17

if only walls are present and you want to destroy them.... odds are you will.. infact very good odds...

a good invasion force should have at least four or five dips especially if taking down the capital sothat your sabotage will be succesfull.....

How many times have i destroyed every improvement but the walls???/ Far too many.

Dips are a must and not just for bribing or establishing embassies. Destroying barracks and walls or a temple to put the civ in disorder so you can bribe it for half price is invaluable.

In MP , dips are even more important. Try to keep a dip in every coastal city and especially in your capital. On a mountain in a fort with a pike or some other defender... dips make great stacking partners as well.....

In short dips and caravans are the two units necessary for survival in all civ games

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I am a civ addict. ARE U 2??????

icq 30200920

Scouse Gits · February 5, 2000, 06:59

A Dip will only be able to steal once from any city.
As war4ever says - have plenty around. If you bribe a barb that is nearer to an AI city than one you own - the unit will be NON.
I believe the order in which they destroy city improvements is random - but the city walls are usually one of the last things to go.
From King level, and above, the AI can bribe your cities - usually ones you have captured/bribed from them. You are most vulnerable when you have made the first bridgehead on an AI continent. There is a good chance they will steal a tech if nothing else.

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Scouse Git (2)

Steve Clark · February 5, 2000, 17:06

"In short dips and caravans are the two units necessary for survival in all civ games."

That is a brilliant statement, Prince War4.
In one AC game, I built ONLY dips and spies for defending my territory, bribing everything that comes my way. For bloodlust, dips and spies are the most powerful military units against non-democratic AI civs.

Without caravans... well, I shudder at that thought. Actually, that might be a good challenge for an Emperor/Deity game?

War4ever · February 5, 2000, 20:23

Hey Steve.... perhaps that should be in my sig.... ala JPK who said if you cant' think of anything to build , build a caravan... perhaps dips should be in there as well.

Without a doubt in the early game dips are the most usefull unit.... so much versatility and spies.... well dont' get me started.... especially their ability to plant a nuke..... gosh i love that ..... although have you ever noticed that spies get captured alot? Which i guess in reality is good other wise it would be just too easy.

Non units free up so much in resources as yuou can often disband supported military for the shields and also free up one or two per a few city in support as well..... however IMO i think dips are too powerful this early on....

In my first MP game i learned thisthe hard way after conquering five cities only to have them bribed next turn along with all my unstacked units.... NEVER AGAIN. If your not travelling in stacks by 1000bc against me.... U r in serious trouble

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I am a civ addict. ARE U 2??????

icq 30200920

February 6, 2000, 01:06

Dipping isn't as tricky as defending against dips.

MyOlde · February 7, 2000, 11:39

I'm currently up against 2 civs who are in democracy? I would rather bribe a city and get all its valuables than destoy it. Is there a way to use a few diplos to do "industrial sabotage" and then walk in and bribe? Can you bribe a democracy when a city is in "disorder"?

Mark_Everson · February 7, 2000, 14:12

MyOlde:

Your solution of wanting to bribe them isn't right anyway IMO. You will bribe them paying say 600G. They can buy back their city for usually about 1/3 of what you paid (factor 2 price reduction for their original city, and usually much closer to their capital than yours). Bribing enemy cities is only to your advantage when combined with a strong attack that can keep enemy diplos away from the city. (Exception, if your treasury is in the thousands and theirs is near zero you could break even.) Or its sometimes worth it if you need to get a particular tech.

If you choose to ignore my advice about the folly of bribing any old city, the only thing you can do is try to knock them out of democracy. It can be done thru 'arrow starvation' (only to an opponent who hasn't see it, isn't good, or is overwhelmed with other details). You need a lot of units near a moderate or large enemy city. The technique assumes the enemy doesn't have a large reaction force, and other caveats you can probably figure out.

This operation will cause the government to collapse due to successive turns of unrest in the same city. I won a pretty much deadlocked game with it once

Turn 1: Plop down units on 1/3 the arrow-producing squares of the city. This will usually throw the city into disorder. When its their turn the other player will bring the city back into order, but usually just by a bit...

Turn 2: Remove as many further arrows as you can. Ideally at least another 1/3 of the total or more. Immediately end your turn so he has little time to set things right.
This operation will cause the government to collapse due to successive turns of unrest in the same city.

Once the government collapses you need to get the diplos in quick, and have a substantial cash hoard on hand to exploit it. The window of opportunity will only last a few turns, so you must break your enemy within those turns. This is just a new version of the 'shield starvation' method to attack a city in republic or democracy. Has worked great for me, but YMMV.

MyOlde · February 7, 2000, 14:37

Mark, I appreciate your counsel but I have bribed quite a few cities and can only recall being bribed back maybe once. This is at Emperor level.

Assuming you're correct, however, what is your approach? An AI city almost always has city walls so you have to assemble and use up quite a few units pounding away. You're using up your units and reducing the city whereas through bribery you get a city in pretty good condition.

poppawoppa · February 7, 2000, 14:52

It bears repeating, that you can use diplomats to bribe cities and other AI troops but the AI does NOT HAVE TO USE DIPLOMATS OR SPIES. I have had my troops bribed by horsemen, archers, marines, alpine troops.
The only defense there is to double post your sentries to prevent bribery, or be in Democracy. And double posting your troops can lead to the unfortunate message "X units destroyed" OUCH.

Mark_Everson · February 7, 2000, 15:41

MyOlde:

Sorry, I lost track of forums and thought I was in multiplayer...

You are completely correct that diplos are the way to go vs the AI. If the AI were smart enough to really use bribery they would apply to AI also, but sadly the AI is as smart as a head of cabbage.

I'm not sure the arrow reduction attack would work against them either, they to play by rather different rules in many ways.

War4ever · February 7, 2000, 20:07

I like communism as well.... especially for games with many different land masses.... while fundy is still more practicall for wars in civ2, communism is great as it allows for good science , vet spies, and little corruption. IMO i like wars in commie if i want to try and slowly wear down the ai and am not looking for a quick victory

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Destroy or be Destroyed.
Conquer or be Conquered.
Strategy overcomes any odds.
Hit first,fast,hit last.
I am not a warmonger, i am just aggressively forcefull.

icq 30200920

Scouse Gits · February 8, 2000, 01:17

Sorry - you cannot bribe the cities/units of a democracy under any circumstances. The sure way is to send in the dips and bring down the walls. There is a chance that during your sabotage you will destroy the happiness improvements - temples etc. As a result of this the city may revolt next turn. If the city cannot become happy again the turn after that - the government might fall - it always does for a human player. If this happens - buy!
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Scouse Git (2)

Graag · February 8, 2000, 01:27

"'In short dips and caravans are the two units necessary for survival in all civ games.'
That is a brilliant statement, Prince War4.
In one AC game, I built ONLY dips and spies for defending my territory, bribing everything that comes my way. For bloodlust, dips and spies are the most powerful military units against non-democratic AI civs.

Without caravans... well, I shudder at that thought. Actually, that might be a good challenge for an Emperor/Deity game?"

Yah, I played a game like this for fun. I won by 1800 (forget the date) on a large map with 7 civs, without building a single caravan or diplomat. I killed a total of 11 civilisations all in all. It is just as easy as using dips and caravans, by 1800 I could have bribed the world I had so much money saved up. I missed caravans for wonder building, but it was still not hard. And I never switched to democracy,republic or fundamentalism, either, just to make it a little bit tougher (although I did build SoL and go into communism).

Graag

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You should never smoke in pyjamas, you could start a fire and burn your face

poppawoppa · February 8, 2000, 23:14

Thanks for the tips. On a related theme, if you have had your troops pound the AI into submission, having destroyed the City Walls, is it advisable to have your Diplomat bribe the city after the troops are gone, or if you could wait one turn so the city goes into disorder due to no troops inside (gotta be the right kind of government, I know), would it lower the bribe price enough, to pay that in an attempt to save the city improvements?
I know that is a "it depends" question. But does anyone know is the cost of bribery just a little less or a LOT less when there are no troops inside?
I have always liked being able to move in one of my "yellow" or "red" strength troops and have him healed to full strength green upon his entering the city. But If I could keep the aqueduct, and barracks, and library, for my use rather than have most of the improvements be lost upon my troops marching in, it would be interesting to see how much less it might cost.

Scouse Gits · February 9, 2000, 05:54

Poppa, from memory of another post on these fora - empty city = half price - but either my memory or the original posting could be flawed.

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

BlackJack · February 10, 2000, 01:27

There are those, I won't say who(head hanging in shame), who save just before sending their troops in. And if they don't like the improvements that are left, they restart and do it again. Sometimes you get the walls, or the airport; it's like you'll randomly get either of two sets of improvements left - temples always go. … But you've got to be a real low life to do that.