OCC and the ToT fantasy game

tobyr · February 14, 2000, 15:28

I would greatly appreciate it if some of the OCC experts would try winning OCC in the ToT fantasy world, and report on their efforts. I suspect this is either a lot easier or a lot harder, but cannot begin to guess which.

I strongly suggest playing as Stygians or Merfolk to get the largest offensive advantage. (Goblins might have a good chance as well.) One could also try for all-out defense (and the research win), playing Elves.

Differences in the tech tree will have an unknown effect.

The ability to go for a research win (Hanging from Yggdrasil 8) might make the game easier.

Having your opponents spread out over four maps may make things harder.

It may be harder to defend your one city, since the other AIs can come from the other three maps and show up right next to you.

Having one city will make it a lot harder to get dragons. (You cannot build dragons until you find one and kill it. The easiest way to kill a barbarian dragon is to attack it after it has become wounded while attacking your city. The fewer cities you have, the less likely you will catch a dragon.) If the other tribes get dragons first and use them against you, you may well be toast.

Having one city will also make it harder to ally with dwarves.

That one city could also be at great risk early in the game from the occasional barbarian kraken.

Having one city makes sorcerors much less valuable, and they seem otherwise to be the key to gaining an early advantage.

- toby

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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

Sten Sture · February 14, 2000, 15:49

toby - I have ToT on order (if I would have given them the correct account number I would have it by now) and I will give OCC a go on the Fantasy map. I have messed around on the Midgard scenario (in MGE) a little bit so I might not be completely lost...

Steve Clark · February 14, 2000, 17:44

Oh great, more people saying stuff like Stygians, Merfolk, Yggdrasil...

Sten Sture · February 14, 2000, 18:36

Hey - I already knew about all that Yggdrasil stuff from Norse mythology! I even tried to learn old Norse at one point in time - bought an old text book where Tolkein edited the grammar section.

Xin Yu · February 14, 2000, 19:06

I'm not familiar with Norse. I like the part that when a hero dies he sees Odin's concubine riding a flying horse and then he is picked to fight for Odin in the last battle and get killed again.

Aurelius · February 14, 2000, 19:13

Sten, do you know the story of the the Hildiridarsons?

AU

Sten Sture · February 14, 2000, 19:27

Xin - you have to respect their love of battle!

uhhhh, I think I'm a little rusty and all of my Norse books are at home so I can't make stuff up...

Hildiridarsons... did that have something to do with the dwarven craftsmen??

Sten Sture · February 14, 2000, 19:29

BTW - I thought Carolus Rex tried an OCC in ToT; CR - how did it go???

Aurelius · February 14, 2000, 20:41

Sten,

I just wanted to know more about the strange tale...guess they are part of Egil's Saga. Just did a search on the Hildiridarson's and found that the brothers, Harek and Hraerek, were involved in a deception concerning the King of Norway, Harald, in 800's. About all I know is they were both treacherous and ugly...so ugly that Ketil Trout defeated them by throwing up on them or something (I was curious about it as this is not a good epitaph.) Wish I could find the tale and say more or know more.
http://www.kettlenet.demon.co.uk/ket...g/egilsaga.htm

Oh, concerning ToT,wish I'd gotten it. I love fantasy and lore--does it use V2.42 engine?

I have been playing OCC on my new MPG and it is much harder than V2.42...but I guess this is not news.

AU

Scouse Gits · February 14, 2000, 22:48

AU - When you finish your OCC game (in MPG)see if you can assess how many more turns it takes than in 2.42. In the large world conquest game against the AI (in MP), I estimate about an extra 15 - 20. This is mainly due to the hostile AI attitude towards the human player long before hitting the top of the PowerGraph. In addition, the AI seems to bribe cities more often.

(Watched "The Rock" the other night - about one of your Vet Marines that turned nasty)

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Scouse Git (2)

Aurelius · February 15, 2000, 00:54

Funny SG(2), I just saw that movie the other day for the first time. I didn't know the title but the story seemed familiar. One of your distinguished actors played the part of an escaped 'rock' inmate. There were a few things I didn't like about the movie that I suspect we would be in agree on, but it had some entertainment value.

I will confess that when you said you saw the 'Rock', I immediately thought of the 'smack down' wrestin' episode involving the WWF (World Wrestling Federation) character called 'The Rock' (very popular in the states right now) and the ex-borg female called Seven of Nine on the Star Trek spinoff, Voyager. This was billed as a real spectacle in these parts.... I wanted to see the episode but missed it due to a Circus in town on Sunday

(Does the Cirque du Soleil troupe in England? I loved it! It's a Canadian based circus.)

I'll check out the turn difference in MPG OCC from Standard OCC. But when you say "large world conquest game in MP," is that a reference to a particular position or scenario or are you talking about a large map? I'm a bit unfamiliar with all the new possibilities in MPG.

So far, I think turn difference is bigger than 15 turns as not only do I lack tribute and gifts in MPG, but I can barely make any science trades early on and later. And I only play on a small map 'less I give AI a reason to stand haughtily over me. Also, I have a hard time getting Copernicus before the AI and definately am reluctant to give away science as a consequence. I wouldn't be surprised if the AI prioritizes building Copernicus more so in MPG than V2.42--just a hunch.

Later SG(2)--Oh what was SG[1]'s lament concerning hot seat--another MPG variant I guess?

AU

Scouse Gits · February 15, 2000, 06:33

Yup, Aurelius.
SG(2) treated himself to MP (we don't seem to be able to get the Gold version in the UK) and we have been playing hot seat - this is sort of multiplayer, but only using the one computer - when we take it in turns to move our units.
Wouldn't you lament big time if your Great Wall transmogrified into a pachyderm?

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

Carolus Rex · February 15, 2000, 07:39

Not very good...

http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum29/H...tml?date=11:12

This was with the original game.

Carolus

tobyr · February 15, 2000, 11:50

I would greatly appreciate it if some of the OCC experts would try winning OCC in the ToT fantasy world, and report on their efforts. I suspect this is either a lot easier or a lot harder, but cannot begin to guess which.
I strongly suggest playing as Stygians or Merfolk to get the largest offensive advantage. (Goblins might have a good chance as well.) One could also try for all-out defense (and the research win), playing Elves.

Differences in the tech tree will have an unknown effect.

The ability to go for a research win (Hanging from Yggdrasil 8) might make the game easier.

Having your opponents spread out over four maps may make things harder.

It may be harder to defend your one city, since the other AIs can come from the other three maps and show up right next to you.

Having one city will make it a lot harder to get dragons. (You cannot build dragons until you find one and kill it. The easiest way to kill a barbarian dragon is to attack it after it has become wounded while attacking your city. The fewer cities you have, the less likely you will catch a dragon.) If the other tribes get dragons first and use them against you, you may well be toast.

Having one city will also make it harder to ally with dwarves.

That one city could also be at great risk early in the game from the occasional barbarian kraken.

Having one city makes sorcerors much less valuable, and they seem otherwise to be the key to gaining an early advantage.

DOES THE ABOVE SOUND FAMILIAR? IT'S THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD!

TOPIC, TOPIC, TOPIC!

Start another thread for your Norse reminiscences, if you wish...

Tnx for listening...

- toby

------------------
toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

------------------
toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

Carolus Rex · February 15, 2000, 12:28

C'mon Toby, don't be so hard on people...

Your thread has sparked off a lot of interest, why not wait and see what happens? I'm not that familiar with the Fantasy game, always trying to interpret the "new" techs and wonders in good ol' civ terms...

Fantasy or not, civ on!

Carolus

Sten Sture · February 15, 2000, 12:37

OKAY OKAY OKAY!!!

Carolus - thank you for posting a link to your thread on OCC in ToT it was very helpful and on topic.

Tobyr - doesn't one of the races inhabit the clouds in the fantasy game? Do you think that they would be competitive?

Aurelius · February 15, 2000, 17:09

Toby,

One of my best friends lives in Princeton and is a 'Civ Genius' and loves dragons and elves. In fact, I'm sending him a copy of MPG so we can do some hotseat. Microprose has so many different games using the same engine that I don't know which to buy. They probably love me-- I now have V1.00/V2.42/two MPG's/Alpha Centauri/and Fantastic Worlds....and the one I'm missing is ToT--the one I would probably love most with all the dragons.

So all I can do is talk about the fantasy right now

Looks like Carolus found some relevant thread though.

Sten, we've been living in the clouds of late. But today is definately the day to ride a bike and get some fresh air.

AU

Scouse Gits · February 15, 2000, 18:27

AU - I'm learning the differences in culture your side of the "Pond". (Mainly spellings and meanings. One of your fellow Americans seems shocked that I spell civilised with an "S" not a "Z"!) I did mean the film - like you I share reservations - but it was worth watching. Sorry, the Cirque du Soleil is new to me. Back to CIV.

I am not a great OCC player - that's SG(1) territory. We have played a couple of OCC games (in part) together. Gifts will be harder in MP. In 2.42 SG(1) does really well with handouts. (Not so much asking for gifts but more obtaining a direct debit on the AI gold reserve!) I'm not surprised about your comments on Copernicus in MP - if I miss a wonder for the SSC it is always that one.

My large world conquest game is not a scenario - just large world - lots of water!
I am interested to try and establish some comparisons between 2.42 and MP, with all the different options available (Map size/OCC/conquest etc.) Perhaps an interesting comparison would be the same map played on the different versions of the game.

Tobyr - Sorry, I have not meant to take your thread off track! Though conversations do take funny twists at times. I have played a little ToT. In the non-fantasy game at Deity you only start with one settler. That would be tough for OCC - perhaps a worthy challenge.

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Scouse Git (2)
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited February 15, 2000).]

Scouse Gits · February 16, 2000, 07:13

As is well known Scouse Gits are totally lacking in cultural heritage

Cirque de Soleil makes infrequent visits to our shores for things such as the Edinburgh Festival and occasional apearances in London - the critics always give them great reviews, but I have been unable to sample them myself.
Sorry again, Toby - you can have the thread back now ...

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

VetLegion · February 17, 2000, 19:11

tobyr

I quit playing fantasy game when I discovered barbarian dragons. What do you do against them?

Xin Yu · February 17, 2000, 20:21

You bribe a barb kraken and use it to bombard coastal cities. It will become vet. Then you use the kraken to attack the dragon--it only takes one shot to kill it.

tobyr · February 18, 2000, 01:26

Maybe you can bribe a kraken to kill a dragon; but you need to have them in the right order and place...

If you get a lot of barbarian dragons, they can trash your game, but they are more likely to destroy your cities than actually occupy them; you can sort of suffer them if worst comes to worst. Barb dragons are an important incentive to build city walls and get some god defensive units in there. Also, have a network of sorcerers so you can resupply a city under attack (but don't bother unless it has walls). I think that on average they are a rare occurrence.

If you play merfolk, stygian or goblin, some of your assets are completely hidden from dragons.

Remember, the reward for actively killing a dragon is worth the trouble -- 1,500 plus the right to ally with dragons eventually.

Also remember that barb dragons mess up your opponents, too.

I've played games where I never got attacked by a dragon (and therefore never managed to build them).

I recently abandoned a game (playing infidel) in which the following happened:
I was attacked by two barbarian krakens. I bribed both (had to sell a lot of city walls to do it), and then a THIRD one came along and killed one of mine before dying.

Shortly after that, THREE dragons attacked four of my cities that were close together, and nowhere near the krakens. I sustained monstrous losses from these six monsters and could not kill the dragons (not enough city walls, so ther attacks on me did not weaken them...).

- toby

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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

tobyr · February 18, 2000, 01:29

Aurelius,
I would appreciate it if you would email me your Princeton friend's name.

-toby

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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com