If you could build 1 wonder....

[klesh]

Point well taken, my friend, Steve.
However, the value of a short strong wonder such as Leo's may actually equate to a less strong forever wonder like Magellan's. Depends on how you want to win. I like to span the entire game, I'll let the AI build up, so when the modern units arrive there will be a challenge. I'll take a millenium or two of Magellan's as apposed to a few centuries of SunTsu. All a matter of opinion, I guess.

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

[Bohlen]

I gotta go with Adam Smith's, with Magellan's a semi-close second. If you would have asked me a month ago I would have given you a different second place, but probably not a first place. Adam's is THE wonder that keeps giving and giving. If you have it and Magellan's you can possibly trade to your little heart's content and buy your spaceship pronto when the time comes.

[Steve Clark]

I like Adam's but correct me if I'm wrong, it is only beneficial if you have alot of 1-gold improvements in alot of cities. I don't think many play that way. In my last game, I built about 8-10 cities, added temples in most of them, a library in a couple and a marketplace. Adam's will only save me about 10 gold per turn. That's not much. I think if I built 40-50 cities, with temples, barracks, etc. in each, then it would really pay off. As I play now, Adam's is just not a priority for me anymore.

[Neon Deon]

I too love Adam Smith's. But, only in expansionist mode. I now usually play perfectionist SP with the MG edition.
My favorite wonder is the United Nations.
Stops the nasty MGE AI from declaring war
on u every 5 mins

[Lung]

Not much has been said in support of the Pyramids, but the value of this wonder cannot be underestimated. Ever tried terraforming as fast as your cities grow with the Pyramids? The importance of the Pyramids is that you grow so fast, that you can build all of the wonders you want (the same goes for King Richard's Crusade. That city becomes your main wonder builder). Thanks to the Pyramids, in my current game i was able to build 5 wonders at once, and i beat all of the other 6 civs. The Pyramids alone may not win you the game, but the other 10 you build thanks to the Pyramids will!

Also, Conpernicus' Observatory - you're kidding, right? Perhaps with only 3 or 4 civs, but with 5-7 it's gotta be the Great Library. For two reasons - firstly, the one previously mentioned about getting every advance that's traded between other civs, and secondly, that you can always go for the more modern advances available to reasearch, knowing that the older ones will come to you for free. Even with the Pyramids, sooner or later you have to research Pottery. Not with the GL. It's only a matter of time. Why research pottery when you can research Monotheism and conquer anyone within distance with your spiffy new Crusaders? If you use it right, you should get 20 or 30 free advances from the GL. Does CO give you that?

Also, for worlds with lots of water, Magellan's Expedition is a must. You can trade twice as fast and outrun your enemies and strike at will. Also, your invasions are far more effective. Not enough can be said either for the merits of Adam Smith's, Mike's Chapel, Hoover Dam, Sun Tzyu's and the UN.

Of course, different circumstances require different wonders, but i'd like most of them in every game.

[Smash]

I get most "other" techs thru trading or stealing.I usually don't get that many techs from The Library in single play.If I get 6 thats alot.With Cope's,my civ is the first to discover most techs.

[geofelt]

My favorite is hanging gardens. At deity, my games improved immensely once I built hanging-gardens. The benefits are threefold:
1) As you expand, the first citizen is happy, letting you use two squares to build a defender and control happiness.
2) The build city(usually the palace) gets three happy citizens, allowing it to celebrate WLTL up to size 6, allowing republic type trade which helps science and gold.
3) Once in republic/democracy, it gives you the extra happy citizen to allow WLTL and grow.

[klesh]

Smartfart,
The WLTKD thing has to occur for two turns in a row for it to take effect. Republics and Democracies will see their city size increase after the second turn, while Fundamentalists, Communists and Monarchies collect resources as if they were Republics. Finally, Despots will see their city collectg resources as if it were a Monarchy.

Hope this clears things up for you...

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I am the Ukrainian Anti-Pope!

[SmartFart]

Single player mode.....Pyramids=all wonders i want.
Multiplayer(x1x1)......Pyramids=Mich

MC's Chapel. Adam Smith and Leonardos are surely right there, though.
Pyramids? Bah! your cities should grow fast enough to max out without.

[Bohlen]

No Pyramids? No problem. Use WLTLD and the need for granaries is nil. Also, if WLTLD can not be used, build granaries in only those cities that need them. Not all usually do as food production is not very high.

[SmartFart]

Of course you can live w/o pyramids.
You can live with no wonders at all,even on a deity level.
Am just trying to say that pyramids are most important early wonder.
It's a simple math.
Furthermore...you cannot WLTLD early,no matter how good you are and am talking about deity,since that is only level i ever played (with possible 4-5 exceptions in MP games).

[Venger]

Funny how long it took someone to mention Pyramids...

Honestly, it all depends on the game itself. If you are on a large map with lots of area, Pyramids is nearly REQUIRED to win. Teh ability to spawn growth not only makes for larger cities but improved research, production, etc. City size 5 beats the hell out of city size 3.

Magellan's is important if you are isolated by geography from the rest of the Civs. The extra two moves is the difference between naval superiorty and waiting for Stealth...

But...

Overall, in Deity, the single most important improvement is Mike's Chapel. This is exacerbated on large maps with a large number of cities, as new cities start out in disorder. Not with Mike's...think of the productivity and tax and science boosts available by removing the need for Enterntainers and allowing even a 10% reduction in luxury level.

Venger

[Bohlen]

Smart: Everything you say is true. A quickly growing civ in the early game is essential for winning, whether it is by founding new cities or with granaries. My game tends to be more on the ICS side (not entirely) so granaries & Pyramids early on aren't that important because my cities stay at around size 2 with all the settlers coming out of them. Once my expansion slows down, a granary here and there, then Republic, and Boom! WLTLD.

Don't get me wrong. The Pyramids are awesome, but if I had to choose only ONE wonder it would be Adam's. That's at both Emperor and Deity.

This thread is just another piece of evidence that this game is capable of being played over and over, with different strategies, none of which are wrong.

God...I love this game.

[Steve Clark]

To throw my 1 1/2 cents back in, I think what was just said that Mich's Chapel is the most CRITICAL wonder at Deity is right on. From a conqueror view, SunTzu/Leo works best, but Mich is the most beneficial. BTW, I don't know if anyone has done this but it would be cool if one could do a cost/benefit analysis of each of the wonders.

The favorable comment about Pyramids I just don't agree with, but then again, that's the genius of Civ2! A size 5 city is NOT better than a size 3 city if those two extra citizens causes unhappiness problems. A size 3 city, fully productive is more beneficial to my civ than one that causes me to reduce my research production. Or better said, I would much rather have a size 3 and a size 2 city than one at size 5 early in the game. Therefore, I just don't want grow my cities faster than I can manage. IMO, of course.

If I could build 1 wonder, I would kill myself, b/c this isn't enough for me to survive in a civ game.
My favourites are Michelangelo, Hoover Dam, Pyramids, Leonardo, Adam Smith, (Women's Suffrage and United Nations), but if I could build just ONE of them, I would take...
let's say I would take Michelangelo, because all the others I'm able to compensate with the construction of certain buildings (cathedrals are too expensive) or trading (AS), so that Leonardo would be the only wonder I really missed...

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"The more I know, the more do I know that I don't know anything" - forgotten who said that...
"Within the peace, enemy attacks us..." - Kaiser Wilhelm II, August 1914
"Hell, yeah!" - James Hetfiels, while singing "Master Of Puppets" on Metallica-S&M-concert in spring 1999 in San Francisco

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark on 04-17-2000 03:00 PM The favorable comment about Pyramids I just don't agree with, but then again, that's the genius of Civ2! A size 5 city is NOT better than a size 3 city if those two extra citizens causes unhappiness problems. A size 3 city, fully productive is more beneficial to my civ than one that causes me to reduce my research production. Or better said, I would much rather have a size 3 and a size 2 city than one at size 5 early in the game. Therefore, I just don't want grow my cities faster than I can manage. IMO, of course.

You are telling me that with X game turns you'd rather have a size 5 city than size 3? Now you cannot compare a size 5 city with a size 3 and size 2 city - the dual cities actually produce one more square. Not to mention you cannot get a size 3 and size 2 city without granary in the same time as a size 5 with.

A city producing 2 extra food without granary will grow in 10 turns, grow again in 15 turns, grow again in 20 turns. So in 45 turns you will be up to size 4.

The same city with Pyramidal granary will grow in 10 turns, in 8 turns, in 10 turns, in 15 turns, and be size 5 in 43 turns.

Factor Size x Time and you end up with 100 units of production (Trade, production) for city 1. For city 2 that's 126. That's 26 extra production squares that can be excess trade or shields.

Note that this turns into a REAL ***** on the next growth cycle, taking 25 turns for city 1 and 13 for city 2, giving, by turn 70, 200 production units for City 1 to 265 for City 2.

Extrapolate that across your entire dominion, and it becomes pretty obvious the growth factor Pyramids gives is extremely valuable. It is exacerbated by actually building Settlers in these cities, as they A) are built faster in city 2, B) impact production less because the come from a larger city.

Venger

[Smash]

"blanket" wonders are better for large civs.My SP civs usually don't exceed 6-10 cities when going for for AC.

I rarely build The Pyramids.Not that I dont want to.Just I want the science wonders 1st and the ai usually builds them first.A good wonder if you cant celebrate.(Monarchy Commie).

With my smaller civs these days I find it faster to build improvements.
Temple,colliseum,cathedral with a market, bank and stock exchange +trade routes=large cities(20+) with 10% luxuries under Democracy.In fact you will probably have to sell sewers to stop growing into negative food situations.

Of course Mich's is strong but if I could only build 1 it is still Cope's for now.

[Lung]

Gee, i think i started something with the Pyramids . Originally the Pyramids weren't my favourite, and if i really could have only one, i would probably go towards Mich's Chapel. However, this ignores the fact that the Pyramids make it so much easier to get MC. I control the phenomenal growth the Pyramids give you by creating ****-loads of settlers, and convert the food-only squares to scientists and taxmen, and unfortunately, sometimes entertainers as well.

In the end, i have more settlers than i can poke a stick at, good science and tax, and a civ which can gear into war mode effectively against any threat. I have enough cities to build MC, Leonardo's, Adam Smith, Magellan's if necessary, and even King Richard's to build even more wonders - all at once.

With the Pyramids, Michaelangelo's Chapel, Adam Smith's, Leonardo's Workshop, and Hoover Dam you are truly invicible (Did i forget any?)
[This message has been edited by Lung (edited April 17, 2000).]

[Paul]

I usually go for an AC win, so if I could build only one wonder it woulf be Apollo

[Sieve Too]

Pyramids? Not a Deity level. Pyramids just force you to look at Elvis sooner. Worse, with 1 or 2 Elvii I'll probably be forced to work high food squares to feed them, robbing me of production and trade and forcing my Settlers to irrigate when they should be road building or founding new cities.

Early in the game, I want to be building mostly Settlers (not Temples) and for that you must wait for a city to reach size 2. Pyramids are no help at all getting a city from size 1 to 2. After you've expanded a bit, happiness becomes a big problem and Pyramids only make it worse.

Later in the game, food caravans and WLT_D effectively make the Pyramids obsolete anyway. Once in Republic or Democracy you'd be better off with any of the other early wonders. They all remain useful up to their point obsolence.

Paul: You can also build spaceships without having built Apollo for yourself. Another civ might have built it, too. It's only an advantage if you want to be faster than the others. Then you could build Apollo before the others would even have discovered Space Flight. Didn't ever happen to me...

[Steve Clark]

Sieve Too: Exactly what I wanted to say but you said it much better than I could. Well done.

[Smash]

very good Paul...LOL

[KenThur]

Well gentle(?)men, just to be different & to further emphasize the diversity of this great game...(assuming deity good MP)

I'v come to like Colussus instead of Pyramids in the early game: doesn't expire until Flight (if the game even lasts that long).
I usually build it in my capital, since there is NEVER corruption & it has the most citizens to work & max advantage.

If U have selected your location well as U should(good specials with lots of arrows) & are a road-builder as i; building the Col = huge jump in EVERYTHING except production (then of course, gold buys anything, anywhere).

Depending on alot of other factors, i'll build it AFTER i'v built a library & marketplace to leverage it's effect. By then, U'v got trade, build 3 caravans asap... send'm to the best trading destinations & WALLA, instant wealth, research, & it just keeps on coming, turn after turn, century after century!!
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Mid-game: i'm leaning more & more to Sun's rather than Leo's.

1st: U can build it sooner.
2nd: Someone HAS TO get to the automobile(=no Leo's) BEFORE they get to mobile warfare (=no Sun's)
3rd: Yeah U get updated units w/ Leo's, but they all turn to rookies! It barely matters that a vet phalax turns to a musketeer, defense still = 3. Or heaven forbid, U lose all your vet pikers & i come at your newbie musketeers w/ my vet Crusaders!

4th: It's rather easy to "convert" a naval vessel to a vet w/o the Lighthouse; U just kill some hapless settler/warrior/horse & WALLA(!) instant vet naval unit.
And i enjoy nothing more than to pull up next to a walled enemy city w/ my vet frigate & blow away a couple of non-multipled defenders, land a couple of vet crusaders, & fight/walk right into the city. Surprise!
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As for late game:
Gotta go with U guys that like Hoover Dam = HUGE production & pollution advanage... just when U need both the most.

For what it's worth. Play on!


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"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

[SmartFart]

Milo: I think you forgot about HP/firepower/Attack value when you compared non-vet musketeers w/ vet phalanx/pikemen.

I hardly need any Elvis in SP games,w/ or w/o Pyramids.
But with Pyramids i usually get all wonders i want,with exceptions of probably one or two max.
My 1st two cities start to build a wonder as soon as each of them produce one settlers and 4 warriors.
Every AI starts with a Pyramids (their food box is twice smaller),so i want mine too ASAP.
2nd city usually going for HG,but if AI beats me,no problem. MC will do the job.
In fact...i hardly remember last time AI beated me in something else than HG and STWA.

[Caesar the Great]

Manhattan Project, unquestionably, if used correctly this is more powerful than any other wonder.