How do you play this game and actually win?

[Viktor Maximus]

Build cites like crazy. Expand. build cities
near river and look at the near terrain so you're sure that the city will survive. As soon as you gor 1 defence unit in the city, BUILD MORE SETTLERS! You must have Polytheism so you can crush eventual enemies if they show up. But always keep some cities building more settlers

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[Jim W]

Well, I've been following this thread carefully ever since I started it, and learning a lot.

For one thing, I learned we have a good game here, since there are several ways to win, and several pemutations and combinations of ways to win.

Do you just build cities like crazy, or just a few, and make them big? Do you concentrate on resource production, or trade? Build roads early, or not at all?

As I said, you don't just find the way through the maze, then every game after that, follow the same trqack until it gets boring.

After all, if you randomize the map from game to game, the terrain changes, resources change, special spots change.

The game I'm presently working on has tsom major land-masses, and several large islands. This means that trading to the islands is more profitable than land-trade, though I still have a lot of land routes going, partly to build the Wonders and partly to get caravans to the port nearest the trade destination.

I'm up in the 1500s, got a lot of trade going, got Leonardo's, Engineers, musketeers, cannon, and caravels, and am working at conscription.

The Bad Guys keep on declaring war on me because I won't give them the secret of Gunpowder, but with legions against Cannon, well, I don't really worry.

By this weekend, I'll see if I can get ot AC.

Thanks for all the tips and advice, and I'll take any more that anybody can send.

I wopn't promise to use it all, but I will consider it all as I develop a game-style of my own.

Jim W

[Seeker]

From five cities at 1500 to conscription in same era?

You have learned well, grasshopper...

[Jim W]

Actually, the very first time around, in the Tutorial, I got Gunpowder at some ridiculous time like 600 AD.

Since then, it's been going up and down. One game I'll do not too terribly badly, then for three games I can't get anywhere, then I start doing better again.

One of those things...

Jim W

[cavebear]

Jim, I remember well my struggle to get up through the difficulty levels. I would tear my hair out trying to understand what the AI was doing to make it work so well. And then, at the next level, it would do different things.

Well, it should! That's what the levels are for. Each forces you to learn new skills. Since I didn't know about these Civ boards at the time, I used to stop my games and examine what the AI civs were doing (the value of irrigation was a revelation).

The suggestions posted here are great, even when contradictary. Each thing you emphasize has a trade-off of something lost.

But some of the suggestions are more complex and subtle than you need at this point, so here are some basics that helped me.

Build as many cities as you can afford to, while keeping a defense. Keep your production of shields, food, and trade balanced. Always keep *some* population growth in every city (irrigated plains are good for that).

Pay attention to the special resources, of course, but keep in mind that they are not all equal - at the start, you want the balanced ones (whales, pheasants, silk provide some of everything).

Think in terms of investments. Those early decisions are going to stay with you forever. Something that pays off in the short term may be important if you are under actual attack, but that is not usually the case early. That archer may make you feel safer, but another city or a marketplace will be move valuable.

Defense is more efficient than attack. That fortified phalanx on a hill can absorb a lot of chariot attacks - especially uncoordinated AI ones.

Monarchy is great, early. Aim your science research towards it. Study the tech tree, there is a "most-efficient" path to monarchy.

Grow your cities in stages. Build 2 to start, then build 2 more from those. Build defense, then double your cities with new settlers. Every 5 cities or so, dedicate one to building a Wonder. It's hard, but it pays off. Rotate the Wonder-building cities.

Wonders: Every one has a value, and there are endless arguements about which ones to build. Try the basic ones first (Pyramids and Great Wall). The effects are definate and immediately obvious. Then experiment with using the other early ones. You may like them or not, but you should see what they can do.

Deliberately try different strategies. Start one game deciding to conquer the world, then one where you just build. It worth finding out what you enjoy and/or are good at.

Read the manual. After a few games, read it again. You will understand some things that weren't clear the first few times. There are a lot of non-obvious bits of information in there.

Last, it is more informative to lose at a challenging level than to win at an easy one. Save often, and examine the game afterwards. Don't feel bad about losing to the computer - it cheats.

Get ICQ. It helps when playing other people because it works outside the game.

[Xuenay]

Hey, I am the worst of you all.

I have been playing from '96 or '97, and I havent been able to get even 100%... And thats on *Chieftain*!

[Sortub]

Jim-

I've been playing this game since December, and my highest ranking is a 129% on King Level.

I'd like to echo Mad Monk, et. al., in saying that building lots of cities is indispensible in winning this game. Think of them as the bones of a skeleton, with everything else as improvements on the body. It may be slow and awkward at first, but look out once you get going.

It seems that I take even more risks at the start than even more of the others. I build a city, then build warriors to explore, then settlers, then another city, and the pattern repeats itself until I have about 5 or 6 cities. After that, I have a "core" where I build better defenses and improvements, but keep building outwards with more settlers. I know warriors in themselves are pretty lame, but the are cheap and let you explore a lot.

As far as science in the game's embryonic stages, I scorn all advances in favor of literacy in order to build the Great Library, especially useful if you're playing with seven civs in total. Then, haul a## towards philosophy, monarchy, feudalism, and invention, whereby you can get Leonardo's workshop, which really puts you at an advantage in unit superiority. Your riflemen will soon combat warriors! Sun Tzu's is good, too. Meanwhile, settlers link your cities with roads and you can begin your first war. Monotheism and crusaders are good for destroying your first opponents. Soon you can go "Fundy" and bash in everyone. Once you get Darwin's Voyage, you're really cookin'!

I need to remind myself of this periodically, but when you strike an opponent, strike from several different directions with overwhelming force. The AI seems to figure out relatively mediocre attacks from one direction. Use those galleons. Watch out if your opponent has a navy equal to yours or he'll turn your soliders on transports into Leo and Kate from the Titanic! Send escort vessels on the same squares as the carrying ships. Use spies and diplomats to buy off opponents' cities.

I like to play on a large, random world. You can build lots of cities at the start this way. In fact, in my best game, I played on a large world and the game place me on a huge continent where I did not run out of room for expansion, even into the 1880s. Even though the other civilizations got some science I didn't, my large land mass, compared to their smaller ones, gave me the wherewithal to toast them.

Hope this helps.

Explore, Expand, Eliminate is my motto. Just explore and build cities everywhere you explore. If, when you explore, you find an AI, just attack him with elephants. Then, once you have 25 - 40 cities, depending on how big your continent(s) are, build caravans and improvements.

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Long live the Communists!
-- SilverDragon

Oh, and also, remember. BUILD CARAVANS

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Long live the Communists!
-- SilverDragon

[Steve Clark]

...and when you have built enough caravans/freights, BUILD SOME MORE.

[JERandall]

The comments in this thread about the best early strategy to pursue -- shields or trade -- intrigue me. Particularly in light of a very similar debate surrounding another, similar game, Master of Orion II (MOO2). (See various archived threads on Usenet's alt.games.moo2 .)

For MOO2, extensive gaming has determined that the best early strategy involves maximizing your production (equivalent of shields), or production's surrogate, population. The production/population maximization strategy in MOO2 will almost always defeat a technology (equiv. trade) maximization strategy.

Now, CivII is somewhat different in that its technology tree gives much greater incremental rewards, in the form of Wonders, to the tech/trade maximization player. However, I am of the opinion that a pop./shields maximization strategy will eventually be superior.

The pop./shields player will lag behind in the early to mid game, with slower scientific advancement and thus inferior units. This creates a window of opportunity (perhaps a rather large window) during which the tech/trade player had the advantage. However, the mid to late game, the pop./shields player regains the advantage, as his massive population and production advantage allow him to outbuild anyone else.

Pop./shields gives an advantage whether you choose the space race (it allows you to crank out ship components faster) or military conquest (it allows you crank out units faster).

The really important thing to note is the equivalences among various resources. There are really four resources: population is the fourth, in addition to food, trade, shields. At some level population is the key resource, but only insofar as it can be transformed into more of one of the other resources. Production is, I assert again, the next key resource, because it can easily be transformed into anything else through the ever helpful caravans/freight.

Trade can also convert to production (through buying, whether incremental or not) but at a less favorable exchange rate than that between production and trade. (No one ever said the exchange rate had to be "fair"!)

Is it possible to win CivII with a tech/trade strategy? Yes, of course; this is the root of the OCC (One City Challenge) strategy. However, for a normal game, *especially* one which will involve significant military conflict, I submit that the most successful strategy is to skew your early game in favor of pop./shields, catch up the mid game, and gain a dominant advantage in the late game.

Feel free to spin this off into a new topic if that would better serve the message board etiquette... I'm new here.


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JERandall

[Smash]

the problem with that is this game is decided in the early-midgame.First crack at wonders means first to build them.First to Philosophy.First to Democracy.etc

Its alot easier to make the transition from high trade to high production.Especially if you if have built civ helping wonders.You can use "we love" days to catch up in population in a matter of turns.By then its game over.

especially true in MP.By the time you have infastructure to support your "larger" and more "productive" civ,the trader is so far ahead its not funny.And if you take this "sheild" approach in MP you will become familiar with having NO wonders at all.You will have to make war to try and slow them down.But you will be facing superior military technology

How will you expand beyond 6-10 cities at deity without a happy wonder or government change?.The latter requires infastructure and that takes TIME.You will have a civ of Elvi'

imo

[Venger]

The key to the production/population/discovery debate is that there is no substitute for time. And time is the only way to create population...
all else can be artificially created...

Venger

[Steve Clark]

Welcome JERandall to Civ2-Strategy, your insights are more than welcome.

I agree that, in the end, the ones with the most shield productions are likely to win for the reasons you gave - spaceships parts and military units. Add to that equation, Capitalization, which converts shields to gold, the combination of high production cities and lots of gold can build (and re-build) military/spy units until the conquest is complete or ship parts (with a gazillion caravans ) until launch. However, it doesn't have to be an either/or strategy. The key with ship parts is to get those required advances and with military units, getting those superior units, both ASAP. That requires science. So perhaps an arrows strategy until a certain time then switch to high shields/gold. The choice of government also plays into this strategy where most switch to Fundamentalism for conquest, thereby maximizing gold since science is not needed anymore.

[Ming]

JERandall...
Your strategy is sound against the AI. The AI will always match your science development, and you won't fall far behind. That's why you can utilize many different strategies against the machine, and usually win.

However, in MP, you can't afford to fall behind early in sciences, especially with agressive opponents who are racing through the science tree. All your shields can't build wonders if they are already built before you get the science.

You want to play a game of MP with that strategy

[This message has been edited by Ming (edited April 27, 2000).]

[Smash]

hehe.no substitute for experience

The problem with that is this game is decided in the early/mid game.

First crack at wonders=first to build wonders.

first to Philosophy.To Democracy etc..

By the time you "catch up" the game will be over.You will take even more time to build infastructure to support your "larger" civ.To keep em happy.Meanwhile the "trader" will have used "we love" to catch up in population in literally a few turns.Whilst the "production" civ will be full of Elvi'

The transition from science to production is easy and natural in late game.Not so the other way.

You will have to make war to slow them down but you will be facing superior military technology all game.

The game favors the peaceful scientist.

imo

[JERandall]

Ming wrote:

> Your strategy is sound against the AI. [...]
>
> However, in MP, you can't afford to fall
> behind early in sciences, especially with
> agressive opponents who are racing through
> the science tree. All your shields can't
> build wonders if they are already built
> before you get the science.

This point is well taken. I have never played multiplayer (MP), so my strategies are directed against the AI.

Two further comments.

First, to continue the comparions to MOO2 -- in that game, the production maximization strategy is even *more* effective in multiplayer. Currently there is a discussion on alt.games.moo2 as to whether a non-production player can possibly keep up with everyone else. It can be done against the AI but not against good human opponents.

In CivII the opposite appears to be the case: the science maximization strategy is the only effective strategy against human opponents.

My second comment -- getting away from the shields vs. trade arrows argument -- let us focus on population. More pop. means more shields or trade (or both). Because the early game is so critical, it seems that you goal should be to maximize your trade as quickly as possible. The question is, will you maximize trade faster by concentrating on trade arrows from the start, or should you engage in a brief period of pop. maximization first?

If, by turn X, you have 5 size-2 cities to an opponent's 2 size-3 cities and 1 size-1 city, it seems you should always have more trade than him (barring outrageous imbalance in special resource squares). Thus it may be that your best bet early in the game is to expand as quickly as possible, spreading out and maximizing your pop. *which equals* maximizing trade.

Clearly there is an inflection point somewhere, beyond which you receive diminishing returns from the pop. maximization strategy. After that point you should allow your main cities to grow and focus on maximizing trade (while still building new cities in outlying areas). I don't have a hard and fast rule for when this inflection point occurs, just a general feel -- but I would be interested to hear from anyone who has a more rigorous mathematical underpinning to his strategy.


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JERandall

[Jim W]

Well, folks, day before yesterday I started a new game. As of last night, I'm still at 1060 BC, with 15+ cities. (Sorry, I was half asleep when I counted them last night and I didn't write the number down.)

I should perhaps give some of the credit to Tim Smith's Hi-Res Graphics, which I installed just before starting the game. I mean, when your Settler is represented by a covered wagon icon, it's a little harder to say, "okay, you just do a bit of irrigation here before you go off and found a new city."

Thanks again, everyone.

Jim W

[general_charles]

Here's how I do it:
first, you must build a lot of cities, I always first build a settler with a city (except for the first one where it comes second) and then a defensive unit, then I move on to the imrovements, try to favor library then market and wonders, continue building new towns and use those new towns to build new towns until you discover explosives (NOTE: you must get Leonardo's workshop) then stop building new cities, you should have a pretty good empire by now and start improving your land with the engineers (NOTE: each time a city finishes building, build an engineer until every city has one). When all of your cities have roads, farms or mines and railroads on each square and railroads between them, you can start expanding again (it will take time).
But this strategy ensures sufficient research and military potential, to attck, go to the PARTISANS folder and follow my directions.

[Ming]

As the old argument goes... 3 one size cities produce 6 workers (the city square plus one in the surrounding terrain) One three size city has 4 workers... It's easy math! Plus, mulitple cities will probably mean more special resources to draw on.

Early expansion is key. Overall pop, while making a difference, can always be made up latter via we love you days in Republic and Democracy. So the more new cities, the better. I start developing my cities when I either run out of room to expand, or the original cities are so far from the front, that a settler will take way to long to start a new city. This is when I start thinking of building roads to. Unless a settler is crossing over a square that I wanted roaded for trade purposes, I will not improve until I'm getting close to my max cities, or the settler has nothing better to do

Jim W -

If you have 15 cities around 1000 BC on Warlord, you will probably win. Soon you'll be ready for prince level.



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Long live the Communists!
-- SilverDragon