Civs included. Just the facts madam 2. - Page 10

Kassiopeia · August 3, 2001, 18:17

That red-headed woman in armour is Joanne D'Arc, IMHO. Of the French, you know?

And PENTAGON IS A WONDER?!

:doitnow: Damn America-sentric game!

Footie Mad · August 3, 2001, 19:04

Quote:

Originally posted by kassiopeia

And PENTAGON IS A WONDER?!

:doitnow: Damn America-sentric game!

Yeah but did you hear they are putting " Obesity of the people " in as a kind of negative wonder, you get it when your luxuries are to high

Kassiopeia · August 3, 2001, 19:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Wille
Yeah but did you hear they are putting " Obesity of the people " in as a kind of negative wonder, you get it when your luxuries are to high

Obesity?

*checks dictionary*

Wernazuma III · August 4, 2001, 01:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander01
And someone mentioned Julius Caesar. has anyone seen his pic? Where? Or was it just Alexander?

It's not really easy to confuse those two.

My hair has been recently compared to Alexander's but looking at my family it'll sure turn out to be more like Caesar's

Bereta_Eder · August 4, 2001, 07:21

Quote:

Originally posted by lockstep
The June 2001 pcgamer preview includes the picture of a female leader (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3image..._pcgamer01.jpg). Looks pretty much like Catherine the Great for me. So she would be the Russian leader.

VERY good lockstep!

I was away too long so I might have missed this info. Stll have we seen this leader before? (who is she? - Catherine?)

Bereta_Eder · August 4, 2001, 07:37

kassiopeia,
yup, the 3rd picture from the top is Joanne D'Arc. (Lincoln and Ghandi are the first two of course).

Wernazuma,
maybe there will be a cure for «caesar's hair» in the future

lockstep · August 4, 2001, 07:41

Alexander01 and paiktis22: Actually, it is possible that this picture shows Maria Theresia (well, she was Austrian rather than German, but however ...)

But then, the Russian leader would probably be Stalin. Not really politically correct ... And how many people outside of Germany and Austria really know about Maria Theresia?

So I guess that Catherine the Great will be the Russian leader, while Frederic the Great will be the German leader.

Locutus · August 4, 2001, 08:53

Paiktis,
Good to see you again, old friend! How's that detective agency coming along?

Yeah, some things have changed in the time you were gone. Japanese in, Spanish out...
It looks like someone was listening to your comment about the lack of new info (4 new screenshots)

Solver,
I agree, but in case of CtP2 we could have both: more info and less scrolling. But for some reason Activision had this strong urge to keep the screens as small as possible...

Lockstep,
Good work! Thanks for the heads up on that one, we seemed to have overlooked that pic from the beginning. I too would say it's Catherine the Great but I've been wrong before (with the Japanese leader), so I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions. Maria Theresa seems less likely to me, there have been more suitable German leaders (esp. since she was actually Austrian rather than German, though for a while she reigned over part of what is now Germany - until the Prussians took control of it), but I don't want to rule anything out. I've added the pic to the summary though.

Alexander01,
What do you base this conclusion of the Japanese leader on? I'm not very familiar with Japanese history but I'd like to know if this is sheer speculation or based on some sort of evidence. I'm not familiar with Hatshepsut but Cleopatra wasn't black so would not seem to be the Egyptian leader. I'm not sure anymore since our volume of evidence is growing too large to keep in memory but I don't think we've actually seen a pic of Julius Ceasar (though the amount of text references is overwhelming).

LOL@Wille

So far, based on our evidence, we know that:

100% CONFIRMED. These civs ARE in CIV 3:

1. AMERICANS - Leader (Abraham Lincoln; 100% confirmed), city names (capital), Unique Unit (F15) -> Light blue
2. GERMANS - Unique Unit (Panzer), city names (capital), multiple text references, video reference -> Dark blue
3. CHINESE - Leader (Mao Zedong; 100% confirmed), city names -> Light blue
4. ROMANS - Leader (C. Julius Ceasar), city name (capital), Unique Unit (Legion), video reference -> Red
5. FRENCH - Leader (Joan of Arc(?); 100% confirmed), city names (capital), dialogue window of the French (Unique Unit: Musketeer?) -> Pink
6. RUSSIANS - Leader? (Catherine the Great? Or Maria Theresa?), Unique Unit (MiG), city names -> Grey
7. ZULUS - Unique Unit (Impi), city names -> Yellow
8. ENGLISH - Leader (Elisabeth I; 100% confirmed), (Unique Unit: Man-at-Arms?)
9. EGYPTIANS - Leader (100% pharaoh, does anyone know who this is?), definite text reference, city names (capital) -> Yellow
10. INDIANS - Leader (Mahatma Ghandi; 100% confirmed)
11. JAPANESE (95%) - Leader (here - Hat and characters on collar are Japanese, Tokugawa Ieyasu?), possible Unique Unit (Samurai) (see 17)
12. IROQUOIS - Leader (Hiawatha; 100% confirmed), city names, text references, Unique Unit (75% Unique Unit - 25% Military Leader) -> Grey
13. GREEKS - Leader (Alexander the Great, city names (capital), possible Unique Unit (Hoplite), text reference, video reference -> Green

EVIDENCE ABOUT OTHER CIVS (which means they could be in or not):

14. PERSIANS - City names (capital) -> Brown?
15. BABYLONIANS - City name -> Red
16. AZTECS - City names -> Pink
17. MONGOLS (5%) - There's a small chance Firaxis made some mistakes with the Leader; if so, it is a Mongol rather than a Japanese Leader (see 11)

SUGGESTIONS BASED ON CLUES (weak clues but we report them):

18. SPANISH - City name: Salamanca, but it was once a Roman city and there's also an Iroquois city with that name.
19. VIKINGS (?) Very weak clues. See above mention URL for the boat: Viking Longboat?
20. ISRAELIS. Apolytoner Eli has pointed out that according to a israeli site, Israel is in.
21. CANADIANS. City name (Montreal). The city name is NOT on the map, but on a civ 3 window.
22. CONFEDERATES. As refered to in a swedish article, a Great Military Leader in Civ 3 could be Stonewell Jackson. Apolytoner Arator argued that this leader is impossible to be in the same civ as Lincoln (=100% confirmed leader of the Americans). Many other Apolytoners disagree though, arguing that he's more likely to be an American, among other reasons because (as joseph1944 pointed out) he served for the American Army before joinging the Confederates.
23. PHOENICIANS. Based on a single text reference in a preview.

----------------------------------------------------------------
The evidence is categorized as such:

Leader= We have a picture of the leader of the corresponting civ.
Unique Unit= We know that the particular unique unit belongs to the corresponding civ
Text reference= The civ has been mentioned by Firaxis in their web site or in interviews by their CEO
Video reference= The civ was seen in Firaxis demo movie from E3.
City names= The names of cities that clearly belong to the corresponding civ are included in scrrenshots of the game
All other clues= All other clues are reported next to the civ name.
-> Color= Indicates in which color(s) the civ has been seen in in-game screenshots.

-------------------------FACTS & POINTERS-----------------------

* Firaxis officially stated that the number of civs that is playable per game will officially be 8. However, it will be possible to increase this number to 16 through the editing tools. Firaxis made no official statement on the total number of civs that will be included in the game but this aforementioned statement and the fact that all previews agree on this issue make it very likely that this number will be 16.
* Based on this info and all available screenshots it can be concluded that the Civs are very likely to be tied to color. There appear to be 8 colors in the game, with 2 civs tied to each color. Note that none of this is official.
* The city names in the screenshots can be from an extra city names list or could have been arbitrarily written be members of Firaxis. So city names in screenshots don't guarantee that a civ will be in. Examples: Kerplakistan and Huntsville, possibly others.
* Another problem could be scenarios. Though city names alone are not enough evidence to include a civ on the 100% certain list and scenario-specific graphics are not likely to be made public until the game is in late beta (if they even exist at all), it's quite possible that some of the evidence we used in this list is based on scenario specific information and not be valid for the regular game.

Bereta_Eder · August 4, 2001, 08:54

I know it's not very discernible but what do her garments tell us? (crown, scarf behind the head, lace in neck) and the building, symbol behind her? (is that a cross? if it is it's not orthodox style)

Luckily she is clearly european and we already have the two empires she ma belong to (Germany, Russia) in the 100% confirmed civs so this is a secondary matter (phew

)

Bereta_Eder · August 4, 2001, 08:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Locutus
Paiktis,
Good to see you again, old friend! How's that detective agency coming along?

Bah! I gave it up! It was too easy a job compared to the LIST

Great job as always Locutus

Solver · August 4, 2001, 09:06

Pharaos haven't been that black

. They're not white etihter, but not that dark. Looks like Ramses II to me...

Locutus · August 4, 2001, 09:53

Solver,
Actually, they have. Your average history book may not mention them but there's a lot it doesn't mention. The Nubian dynasty (i.e. the 25th dynasty IIRC) consisted of Nubians (Duh!), black Africans from present-day Sudan (there may have been other black pharaohs as well, but I'm not sure about that). They were as black as the picture shows. However, to my knowlegde they didn't bring forth any really famous pharaoh ala Cleopatra or Ramses II. So that's a very interesting issue that will probably only be solved by actually playing the game; until then your guess is as good as any.

Thanks paiktis. LOL, I guess it would indeed be too easy

Yeah, we're very, very lucky that it's only a secondary issue, I don't think I could handle another Japanese/Mongol case

Wernazuma III · August 4, 2001, 10:21

as fat as this woman is, it must be Maria Theresia

Did you know that they had to use a crane to get her into the capuzine tomb, where (almost) all the habsburgs found their last residence?

Alexander I · August 4, 2001, 10:31

Ok - my decision on Tokugawa Ieyasu was a bit of an educated guess. I'm a history major in college and have studied this kind of stuff extensively.

My reasons for Tokuygawa-

He was the leader of the Japanese in CivII, and so far all the identified leaders have matched their CivII counterparts.
I've seen his portrait at art exhibitions.
He was greater than his predecessors (the other candidates-
Oda and Toyotomi).
I read an article which refered to this animated leader as "Toku," and the only reasonable conclusion I feel is our buddy Ieyasu here.

In regards to the Pharaoh, Egyptians were probably all lot darker than you would think, though not as dark as Nubians. But you're right to say that the dynasty of Greek Ptolemies were lighter skinned - though by the time of Cleopatra they could have darkened by intermarriage.

We'll have to see what Firaxis's answer is.

Locutus · August 4, 2001, 13:39

Alexander01,
Thank you very much for your insights on the Japanese guy. You make a very convincing case for him, so I'll remove the question mark behind his name in the summary.

I'm aware that Egyptians were 'darker' than is generally assumed, but the picture from the screenshot is IMHO extremely dark. But you do have a point (maybe Firaxis is even making sort of a statement by deliberately making this pharoah black?) so it could basically be anyone.

Alexander I · August 4, 2001, 14:54

I concur, Locutus.

Now what about this fat old woman? Catherine or Maria Theresa?

Alexander I · August 4, 2001, 18:15

I think one of the problems in identifying this woman is that both Maria Theresa and Catherine the Great were Germans (ie. Germanic). Catherine simply married the Tsar and took control of the country when he was killed. So the two may look very similar. Also, keep in mind that there was so much mixing and intermarriage between the royal and imperial families of Europe that eventually they all started looking similar. (Ever compared King George V of Great Britain with Russian Tsar Nicholas II? They look virtually identical.) We may just have to wait till we get more information. I will consult someone with more historical knowledge though. We'll see.

Wernazuma III · August 5, 2001, 01:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Locutus
I'm aware that Egyptians were 'darker' than is generally assumed, but the picture from the screenshot is IMHO extremely dark. But you do have a point (maybe Firaxis is even making sort of a statement by deliberately making this pharoah black?) so it could basically be anyone.

In many american documentaries black people are acting as Egyptians. If I recall correctly, some afro-american movements claim that egyptians were black. Well, they were dark skinned at least demotic was a hamite language AFAIK.

Warm Beer · August 5, 2001, 02:10

Geez, I feel weird debating a topic like this, but i seem to remember a bust of Queen Nefertiti that seems to show the her color much lighter than that of, say, the nubians, yet darker than then Europeans' skin. The bust I reference was made 1300 years BC, I am no Egyptologist, but the artefact is something to go on.

And again along the line of "I am no Egyptologist" Re: Cleopatra, I have a hard time thinking that the Greek rulers from whom she is descended from would be all that into intermarriage with the locals... conscidering the trend to keep one's "royal lineage" pure.

Just my 2 cents, combined with some amatuer scholarlship.

Locutus · August 5, 2001, 07:29

Well, I did some research on the German/Russian leader and I've concluded that this is pretty much impossible to solve without additional info, but maybe someone else has some fresh insights:


Maria Theresa	Unknown	Catherine the Great

jsw363 · August 5, 2001, 11:34

Sorry to be a bastard about this, but if you want the list to be totally accurate....

If the picture IS in fact Maria Theresa, then we should include Austria where the Mongols are included as possibilities. However unlikely it is that Austria would be included, they share the same evidence as the Mongols (an unconfirmed leader) for consideration.

Austria WAS a possibility for one of the civ games (CTP? Civ II?) and so could be considered here. I won't go into the merits of Austria for consideration, because whether or not it SHOULD be included is an entirely separate issue. I feel that they at least need to be included under possibilities however.

Are there any textual references to Stalin? That would eliminate Catherine as a possibility and lend support that this leader is Maria Theresa (either German or Austrian).

Alexander I · August 5, 2001, 19:11

I'm afraid things have become a bit more complicated. You see, the picture in question is wearing late 19th Century garb, whereas our suggested options were both mid-18th Century. The woman most closely resembles Queen Victoria, of all people. This would, however, have drastic repercussions on our knowledge of the game.

See the Catherine the Great, mystery woman? thread for more details.

Zealot · August 5, 2001, 19:37

I bet that that 'unknown' woman is queen Victoria.

Locutus · August 5, 2001, 20:19

Hmm, let's not get too carried away here. What do we really know about this leader picture? Absolutely nothing. We have this pic that surfaced a few days ago, showing a post-Medieval North European woman but that's all we know. We concluded she had to be either Catherine the Great or Maria Theresa, based on the fact that Russia and Germany are the only European civs on our list for which we still don't have a leader. This makes perfect sense, as we have reason to believe (though still no certainty) that all civs to be included in Civ3 are known. But this conclusion is only valid if she is indeed representing Russia or Germany. To say that if this is Maria Theresa then Austria is an option as a civ as well would be mere speculation: if this leader represents none of the civs on our list, she could be anyone. She could be Maria Theresa of the Austrians, she could be Queen Victoria of the Brittish, she could be Queen Emma of the Dutch (also late 19th century), maybe even some Belgian or Scandinavian queen or Sid knows who else... All we can really do is conclude that this woman is, based on our current evidence, likely to be either Catherine the Great of the Russians or Maria Theresa of the Germans but to at the same time realize that we really don't know who she is and could basicly be anyone (and from any civ). To add civs to the list or make other changes would, at this stage, be very premature IMHO; we should await further evidence before doing such a thing.

As far as the clothing goes, I think there's a very real possibility that Firaxis screwed this up. They seem to have gotten the major outline of everything correctly, but they tend to be a bit sloppy when it comes to details. Examples are the hairstyle of Alexander the Great, the houses of the Iroquois, possibly the Unique Unit of the Iroquois (who might be a horseman, while the Iroquois lived in forests and hardly used horses), etc. I'm sure if we'd look into everything closely, we'd be able to discover more historic inaccuracies. There's of course the possibility that this leader is indeed from the 19th century, but this clothing alone shouldn't lead us to exclude leaders from other ages.

So far, based on our evidence, we know that:

100% CONFIRMED. These civs ARE in CIV 3:

1. AMERICANS - Leader (Abraham Lincoln; 100% confirmed), city names (capital), Unique Unit (F15) -> Light blue
2. GERMANS - Leader? (Catherine the Great, Maria Theresa or someone else?), Unique Unit (Panzer), city names (capital), multiple text references, video reference -> Dark blue
3. CHINESE - Leader (Mao Zedong; 100% confirmed), city names -> Light blue
4. ROMANS - Leader (C. Julius Ceasar), city name (capital), Unique Unit (Legion), video reference -> Red
5. FRENCH - Leader (Joan of Arc(?); 100% confirmed), city names (capital), dialogue window of the French (Unique Unit: Musketeer?) -> Pink
6. RUSSIANS - Leader? (Catherine the Great, Maria Theresa or someone else?), Unique Unit (MiG), city names -> Grey
7. ZULUS - Unique Unit (Impi), city names -> Yellow
8. ENGLISH - Leader (Elisabeth I; 100% confirmed), (Unique Unit: Man-at-Arms?)
9. EGYPTIANS - Leader (100% pharaoh, does anyone know who this is?), definite text reference, city names (capital) -> Yellow
10. INDIANS - Leader (Mahatma Ghandi; 100% confirmed)
11. JAPANESE (95%) - Leader (Tokugawa Ieyasu - Hat and characters on collar are Japanese), possible Unique Unit (Samurai) (see 17)
12. IROQUOIS - Leader (Hiawatha; 100% confirmed), city names, text references, Unique Unit (75% Unique Unit - 25% Military Leader) -> Grey
13. GREEKS - Leader (Alexander the Great, city names (capital), possible Unique Unit (Hoplite), text reference, video reference -> Green

EVIDENCE ABOUT OTHER CIVS (which means they could be in or not):

14. PERSIANS - City names (capital) -> Brown?
15. BABYLONIANS - City name -> Red
16. AZTECS - City names -> Pink
17. MONGOLS (5%) - There's a small chance Firaxis made some mistakes with the Leader; if so, it is a Mongol rather than a Japanese Leader (see 11)

SUGGESTIONS BASED ON CLUES (weak clues but we report them):

18. SPANISH - City name: Salamanca, but it was once a Roman city and there's also an Iroquois city with that name.
19. VIKINGS (?) Very weak clues. See above mention URL for the boat: Viking Longboat?
20. ISRAELIS. Apolytoner Eli has pointed out that according to a israeli site, Israel is in.
21. CANADIANS. City name (Montreal). The city name is NOT on the map, but on a civ 3 window.
22. CONFEDERATES. As refered to in a swedish article, a Great Military Leader in Civ 3 could be Stonewell Jackson. Apolytoner Arator argued that this leader is impossible to be in the same civ as Lincoln (=100% confirmed leader of the Americans). Many other Apolytoners disagree though, arguing that he's more likely to be an American, among other reasons because (as joseph1944 pointed out) he served for the American Army before joinging the Confederates.
23. PHOENICIANS. Based on a single text reference in a preview.

----------------------------------------------------------------
The evidence is categorized as such:

Leader= We have a picture of the leader of the corresponting civ.
Unique Unit= We know that the particular unique unit belongs to the corresponding civ
Text reference= The civ has been mentioned by Firaxis in their web site or in interviews by their CEO
Video reference= The civ was seen in Firaxis demo movie from E3.
City names= The names of cities that clearly belong to the corresponding civ are included in scrrenshots of the game
All other clues= All other clues are reported next to the civ name.
-> Color= Indicates in which color(s) the civ has been seen in in-game screenshots.

-------------------------FACTS & POINTERS-----------------------

* Firaxis officially stated that the number of civs that is playable per game will officially be 8. However, it will be possible to increase this number to 16 through the editing tools. Firaxis made no official statement on the total number of civs that will be included in the game but this aforementioned statement and the fact that all previews agree on this issue make it very likely that this number will be 16.
* Based on this info and all available screenshots it can be concluded that the Civs are very likely to be tied to color. There appear to be 8 colors in the game, with 2 civs tied to each color. Note that none of this is official.
* The city names in the screenshots can be from an extra city names list or could have been arbitrarily written be members of Firaxis. So city names in screenshots don't guarantee that a civ will be in. Examples: Kerplakistan and Huntsville, possibly others.
* Another problem could be scenarios. Though city names alone are not enough evidence to include a civ on the 100% certain list and scenario-specific graphics are not likely to be made public until the game is in late beta (if they even exist at all), it's quite possible that some of the evidence we used in this list is based on scenario specific information and not be valid for the regular game.

edit: grammar

Alexander I · August 5, 2001, 23:09

My personal opinion is that the image is indeed of Queen Victoria. This means one of three things.

1. More than 1 leader per civilization.

2. Misidentification, ie. Victoria's picture but Catherine's name.

3. Long Shot- It is Queen Victoria, but she's the leader of another civilization. (For example, during her reign, India was annexed to the British Empire fully, and Victoria received the title "Empress of India" in addition to "Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.")

I could be wrong, and we are all entitled to our own opinions; that's what these forums are all about. And since, I assume, the vast majority of us don't work for Firaxis, we really can't know what they're thinking. I suppose if enough of us asked the same question (maybe get an official Apolyton request), that Firaxis might be persuaded to give a little information on this in their next CivIII screenshot release.

In the meantime, the matter is still open for conjecture, so fire away!

Kassiopeia · August 6, 2001, 07:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Alexander01
My personal opinion is that the image is indeed of Queen Victoria. This means one of three things.

1. More than 1 leader per civilization.

Maybe, but TWO FEMALE LEADERS? Come on...

Quote:

2. Misidentification, ie. Victoria's picture but Catherine's name.

If it is Victoria's picture, then this must be it.

Quote:

3. Long Shot- It is Queen Victoria, but she's the leader of another civilization. (For example, during her reign, India was annexed to the British Empire fully, and Victoria received the title "Empress of India" in addition to "Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.")

Well, we haven't had any speculation on the female Indian leader so far, but I don't think Firaxis would like to piss the Indian's off by pulling this stunt off.
I wouldn't like it if Alexander would be put as Finland's leader just because Finland was under Russian control in the 19th century.

hetairoi22 · August 6, 2001, 11:41

Quote:

Originally posted by kassiopeia

Maybe, but TWO FEMALE LEADERS? Come on...

If it is Victoria's picture, then this must be it.

Well, we haven't had any speculation on the female Indian leader so far, but I don't think Firaxis would like to piss the Indian's off by pulling this stunt off.
I wouldn't like it if Alexander would be put as Finland's leader just because Finland was under Russian control in the 19th century.

I agree, and we've already seen a picture of Gandi, right!

Alexander I · August 6, 2001, 13:28

I said the India thing was a long shot. And we've seen Mohandas Gandhi only, not Indira Gandhi, so the female slot is technically open.

The thing is, if that's Queen Victoria, AND she's the leader of the English, that could mean LOTS of leaders, for example,

Queen Elizabeth I
Queen Victoria

and some males, why not

King Henry VIII
King George III

This is purely conjecture and theory, mind you, but it would be truly wonderful if it were true. Think of it - different animated leaders as time goes by! Of course, it may just be a big misunderstanding.

But that picture is NOT Catherine the Great. Maybe some people at Firaxis are stupid and made a big mixup, but the pic is Victoria or someone from the Victorian era. Hey, it could be the female American leader. Anyone know of any fat old women wearing tiaras in the late 19th Century?

Sabre2th · August 6, 2001, 13:58

Damn double posts

Sabre2th · August 6, 2001, 13:58

There has never been a female President in the U.S. (no women even run for President).

If and when there is, she will not be wearing a tiara.

I also think it's VERY unlikely that Firaxis is making more than two leaders per civ (Most likely one)