We love the 'X' day - a crutch for the weaker player?

[Venger]

This is going to start the FLAME WAR FROM HELL...

My opinion is that WLTXD is a crutch used by players to get around the inherent difficulty of building large cities under high overhead governments like Republic and Democracy. I have never, ever, adjusted my Luxuries rate to cause WLTXD. I have occassionally stumbled into it in a city here, a city there, lasting for a turn or two. But never what I've read here...using it to grow cities into huge size. Does anyone really think that was the design behind this? To let a civ take 20 turns to increase size 10 fold?

Apparently, this Luxuries whoring is used to quickly turn size 4 cities into size 12 cities in 9 turns. To me, that circumvents the natural growth the game intended. It is, in fact, related in my opinion to ICS. Taking the game mechanics and using them to a ridiculous fashion. At least ICS seems more subtle and realistic - 20 small cities versus 8 large ones. Using WLTXD as growth management really seems weak.

In this same fashion, is there a way to disable WLTXD in the rules? I'd like to avoid this altogether, or at least modify it so that WLTXD yields a 50% production bonus or somesuch, rather than causing such ridiculous growth...

Bring it...

Venger

[Ming]

You are welcome to your opinion.

But, you ask... "Does anyone really think that was the design behind this"

Well, yes! It is well documented in all the manuals (unlike many of the other things)
The rules seem very clear!
Let me Quote from the manual supplied by those designers...

Republic/Democracy
"A city currently ruled by either of these governments increases in population by one each turn it celebrates, so long as sufficient food is available. This can result in dramatic growth of the city"

Read the last sentence again... OK!
So yes, it was designed into the game, and is not a cheat.

Now, is it a crutch. Well, are the wonders a crutch? Are trade routes a crutch? These are all things that were specifically designed into the game, just like WLYD's.

Many people don't like some of the rules. I personally hate bribing cities for so cheap.
That is why they made it easy to change the rules. And frankly, if you are only playing against the computer... do whatever you want as long as you are having fun.

But, WLYD's growth is a legitimate tactic that was MEANT TO BE USED for fast city growth. So deal with it! And you better learn how to do it a lot if you ever want to win in an MP game.

[Smash]

hehehe.Never heard that idea before.It does help the Happy wonder owner more than anything else.On deity at least.Just another good reason to try and get them

[Sieve Too]

WLT_D growth is no easy crutch. First, you must get to Republic, which means sacreficing production and hampering your ability to explore, attack and defend. Next, you must have at least a Marketplace and a Temple in your cities or the celebration isn't going to last long. Next, you must have sacreficed expansion by using your Settlers to irrigate and road existing city squares instead of founding new cities. No food surplus = no growth. Next, you still need Aqueducts and Sewer Systems to grow past sizes 8 and 12. Beyond those sizes you must build expensive Banks, Colloseums, at least one happiness wonder and you must establish trade routes. Republic won't get you into the mid-teens so you'll need Democracy.

That's an awful lot of setup. ICS is much easier to do.

[catullus]

I would say it's just the opposite of a crutch for the weak; it's more of a benefit for the really good player. As Sieve Too said, you need good planning to reap the bounties of it. The timing involved to make it work can't be overestimated.
The Perfect Player knows how bring all cities up to minimum condition (at least 3 citizens in every city, the right happy buildings, the right growth allow buildings, the right cash), optimally at same size/infrastructure level before starting it. He will then adjust tax rate, food/trade harvest and specialists for every city to ensure growth. He will buy buildings every turn to sustain the growth. And he will see to that growth will reach stop point in all cities the same turn as cash runs out, then switch to science optimation.
The mediocre player will get growth in half the cities, while wasting enormous amounts of trade in all of them on lost luxury. He will run out of money when cities scream for aquaducts. He will fall behind in science, and end up with an even more unbalanced nation, some cities too large to handle on lux 40%, while some of the small ones could chug along at lux 0.

C.

[cavebear]

"Weaker players" - Well that would be me *s*

I have begun to learn how to use WLTxD properly after Demo and when cities have just gotten beyond aqueduct or sewers. It is still too tricky for me to manage earlier than that. I either don't have the food surplus or it hurts my shield production too much.

I don't consider it a crutch, though. Indeed, successfully manipulating the Luxuries bar requires skill and experience. It is the return on the tax and science bars that is easy(ier) and more obvious.

I think that efficiently utilizing WLTxD at Monarchy (where the gain is least evident to (my) unskilled eye) is quite a feat, and can probably determine the game winner in an otherwise even match.

[Venger]

Ming: No one said it was a cheat. Just a crutch.

Trade routes and wonders are explicit parts of the game. I don't think the designers of the game expected someone to peg luxuries for 10 turns to engorge their cities.

Sieve: Getting to Republic is not a challenge, it is a requirement. Building roads and irrigation is another requirement. But then taking Luxuries to 80% to bloat your cities is not.

As to the general argument - anything which utterly circumvents the aspect of the game normally bound strictly by time, i.e. city growth, seems all too easy.

Venger

[shamrock]

Venger-

You insist that the designers didn't intend for players to use WLTKD in this manner, but as Ming has already shown, it is well documented. How can you argue this point?

It seems to me that the only meaningful difference between WLTKD and all the other documented features of the game is that you don't think the +1 pop/turn is realistic. Even if it's not realistic, that alone is not enough to make it a crutch.

Do you ever build Leo's? How realistic is it that a captured phalanx can be magically transformed into a rifleman within a few turns? Leo's is extremely powerful and highly unrealistic. Is building it a crutch?
If not, what is the difference?

Not looking to be argumentative, just trying to understand your viewpoint.

Throughout history many cities have had periods of rapid population growth due to many varied causes. I believe the designers have done a good job in reflecting this in the game. Like all other stratergies in this great game the better players use them to better effect. Until I discovered multiplayer games and these forums I never used wlt?d now I do along with many other skills I have learn't from very helpful opponents. With practice I hope to become one of the better players so I can pass knowledge onto new players. To take WLT?D out of this game would IMHO help the weaker player rather than hurt them.

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hooray hooray its a Hydey Hydey day

[Crustacian]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Venger on 05-05-2000 10:39 PM</font> 'Trade routes and wonders are explicit parts of the game. I don't think the designers of the game expected someone to peg luxuries for 10 turns to engorge their cities.' *Venger: Ming quoted the manual: 'This can result in dramatic growth of the city'....did you read it as he asked you too? *engorge=dramatic growth...duh! 'As to the general argument - anything which utterly circumvents the aspect of the game normally bound strictly by time, i.e. city growth, seems all too easy. Venger' *Your concern is respected but not agreed with by me. You would not call it easy if you were experienced in trying to pull it off while in a wonder race, or at war, or any one of the many things that must be balanced to see a "truly dramatic growth engorgement" rather than just a few times here and there. Try doing it when you are behind badly, to get max out of your civ before turning fundy in a last ditch effort to get a SS builders capital before it lands!!!! All the while you are at war with two very advanced and agressive AI's with spys, and modern units... You speak from a lack of experience with this method and that is why you presumptously call it easy, yet I have pondered your same concern in the past but these other posters on here have answered my other thoughts I would have shared already.

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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus
[This message has been edited by Crustacian (edited May 06, 2000).]

[Crustacian]

[quote]Originally posted by Venger on 05-05-2000 10:39 PM

*PS: The below quote from you Venger, is not even logical, as NONE of these things are 'required' by this game. What applies to one of these things can apply to all.

'Sieve: Getting to Republic is not a challenge, it is a requirement. Building roads and irrigation is another requirement. But then taking Luxuries to 80% to bloat your cities is not.'

[markusf]

you sound like a ICS'r who can't stand we love the king day, because it blows ics away when done right. At least that has been my experience.

[Ming]

quote: Originally posted by Venger on 05-05-2000 10:39 PM Ming: No one said it was a cheat. Just a crutch.

When you state that it is was not the designers intent, you are calling it a cheat

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by shamrock on 05-05-2000 11:20 PM Venger- You insist that the designers didn't intend for players to use WLTKD in this manner, but as Ming has already shown, it is well documented. How can you argue this point?

Was it designed as a way to grow cities? Doubtful. Was it designed to 4 fold increase your size in 6 turns? Doubtful. It was designed as an effect, not a cause. Frankly, I don't see how you CAN'T win using it.

quote: It seems to me that the only meaningful difference between WLTKD and all the other documented features of the game is that you don't think the +1 pop/turn is realistic. Even if it's not realistic, that alone is not enough to make it a crutch.

It is if that's how you grow your cities under democracy/republic. It's ridiculous to peg your luxuries for 12 turns and have 5 times the trade arrows you had before. Here's the test - try winning the game without using it.

quote: Do you ever build Leo's? How realistic is it that a captured phalanx can be magically transformed into a rifleman within a few turns? Leo's is extremely powerful and highly unrealistic. Is building it a crutch?

Leo's is pretty nuts. I build it if no one else has, but not to the exclusion of Mike's chapel or any other one.

quote: If not, what is the difference?

Leo's is a wonder. It is in the game to provide the upgrade benefit in lieu of shields used for the wonder. WLTXD seems to be best found occassionally, for a turn or two at a city, not to grow from size 6 to size 20.

quote: Not looking to be argumentative, just trying to understand your viewpoint.

No problem, that's why I posted it. I want feedback.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by markusf on 05-06-2000 02:23 AM you sound like a ICS'r who can't stand we love the king day, because it blows ics away when done right. At least that has been my experience.

I don't multiplay and I don't ICS either. Frankly on Deity ICS is a real *****. I also don't use WLTXD to suddenly covert myself into 4 times the size I was in 10 turns.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 05-06-2000 08:03 AM When you state that it is was not the designers intent, you are calling it a cheat

You misunderstand the nuance I am trying to address. WLTXD is in the game for a reason. I believe it is designed to provide a bump to cities that happen to have good infrastructure and a well managed Civ. I don't believe it was designed to grow your Civ like a Chia Pet.

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Crustacian on 05-06-2000 02:22 AM *PS: The below quote from you Venger, is not even logical, as NONE of these things are 'required' by this game. What applies to one of these things can apply to all. 'Sieve: Getting to Republic is not a challenge, it is a requirement. Building roads and irrigation is another requirement. But then taking Luxuries to 80% to bloat your cities is not.'

I speak metaphorically. To me, Republic is a REQUIREMENT to have a successful game. Same thing with improving infrastructure. Again, a rhetorical statement indicating that if you don't build infrasctrucutre, you don't win, thus referring to it as a requirement. While it may be possible to never become a Republic (I never become Communist or Fundy, so I reckon some people can skip Rep/Dem if they really WANT to), I find it a requirement on Deity, at least at some point.

Venger

[carnide_]

I use it a lot.
Must be done properly.
Most of the times you have a few type A cities (over 6 in pop), a bunch of type B (size 3-4 cities) and a bunch of type C (size less than 3) cities.
With WLTPD you can turn your type B cities into type A cities. You have to manage well to avoid loosing a lot of research on the type C cities.
This can be done. I just happen to be in such a game.
Was a deity 2xprod, 1xmov game, in a med world map, random starting Civ locations.
I pick up the Chineese and started in .... Australia!! Argghhh..
I had some bonus techs, and surprise, one was Monarchy. What a gift! I planned to use WLTPD from that very moment.
I could not ICS. I raced to Trade, built the gardens, raced to the lighthouse (defensive puorposes), got Philo, got Republic, got Mono, built Mikes.
I had 6 size 3-4 cities, and was last on every demographic but literacy. But I had no type C city because I managed so.
I turned on WLTPD. 3 turns later I was 1st on pop. I started going after feudalism, Theology and sending out the trirremes.
The game was in the pocket.
The key: I started with Monarchy in a very bad spot, managed to have no type C city, and to use WLTPD. Even starting with Monarchy, but without WLTPD, the game could not be win.
The final point: WLTPD is built into the game, like trade arrows, or corruption. Learn to use it, or perish.

[Smash]

You don't restart for free techs?Doesn't that make the game a foregone conclusion and a waste of time?Thats the way it seems in your game.The win was yours for the taking before even moving on turn 1.

[shamrock]

Venger-

I think we may be at an impasse regarding your central point. I interpret "This can result in dramatic growth of the city" as a clear indication of programmer intent. You do not.

So let's put that aside and talk about some of the other points you bring up.

1) LACK OF REALISM: Judging by some of your comments (i.e. "find it ridiculous" and "population whoring"), I think you regard the population explosion of WLTPD as highly unrealistic.

As Hydey as already alluded to, perhaps it isn't so ridiculous. Consider the following example from modern times. In 1975, Bombay had a population of ~6 mil. In 1995, the population had exploded to over 15 mil - less than 20 yrs to double! (Hey hardcore civers: what is that in game terms? Like a size 34 city going to 55 or so?) Now this pop explosion was certainly not due to happiness, but it does show that it can happen. And during the early part of the game, 20 yrs = 1 turn - now that's a population explosion!

2. PEGGED LUXURIES/5X TRADE: For one, you certainly don't need to "peg luxuries" to enjoy WLTPD. As has already been stated, efficiently using WLTPD is not trivial, and if you do it right, you can often enjoy the benefits at a mere 40% lux rate. I don't think you'll ever see "5x trade," but you certainly do see benefits across the board that are related to increased population.

3. WINNING WITHOUT IT: Interesting proposition - I'm always looking for new ways to make the game a challenge, i.e. no wonders, launch spaceship by certain date, OCC, etc. Maybe I should add the No (intentional) WLTXD's Challenge or No Democracy/Repulic Govt. Challenge or No Luxuries Challenge. I'd be willing to try these things but only because I see it as making the game more challenging on its own terms, not because I am relinquishing a "crutch."

All right, I've rambled enough. Look forward to your comments and don't be too hard on Crustacean.

[carnide_]

Yes, I agree. Good management is a must.
- - -
Winning whitout it: a very interesting proposition.
- - -
To Smash: (For your INFO) Most games I play 1x1x, no free techs host advantage. But thats not the only way to play. The game I described was not one of such games, as a matter of fact was a 2x 1x game.
The point was: Even with those free techs, if I didn't use WLTPD, I could have not win.
So, WLTPD is a "de facto" necessary tool to win the game.

WLTxD is part of the game. Get used to it.

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Long live the Communists!
-- SilverDragon

[Sieve Too]

I think Venger is missing the main point behind WLT_D. In order to do it successfully, you must be willing to give up a lot (expansion, war, good defense) while concentrating on infrastructure. I also think you overestimate its effects. By the time I'm ready to do WLT_D for the first time, my cities are probably around size 6 or 7 anyway. And after bankrupting my treasury for Aqueducts, the best I can do is get to size 12, assuming I've roaded and irrigated everything. While I'm doing this, I'm losing out on science.

Note that other gov'ts can attain similar explosive growth via food caravans.

[Scouse Gits]

Just a quick three ha'p'orth - the Attitude Advisor (F4 key) shows celebrating cities as bright white, non celebrating cities as white and revolting cities as red - is this not a clear indication that the game designers intended this to be used extensively?


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[vik]

Bravo, Venger.

While I thoroughly disagree with your hypothesis, I applaud the way you have responded to the answers. It seems many (or at least several) here would hold you in a dim light for proposing WLTxD is a crutch. However, you have responded to the reasoning quite well, considering your statement seems to be a touchy subject with some.

If you would agree that there is a trade-off incurred when using WLTxD, I think we could make some ground. The amount of resources a player chooses to allocate to luxuries directly affects the amount of resources taken away in science and taxes. Depending on the resource squares utilized, it can also affect food and shield production. For most players who plan on using WLTxD, it usually affects the starting city location as well.

If we can't agree there is a trade-off, perhaps we can agree that if WLTxD is available to all players (not just "weak" ones) then it is truly not a crutch.

take care.

[Steve Clark]

Getting on this fairly late. WLT_D or Republic, heck, even trades or wonders are not requirements for winning. To win, you either conquer all of the remaining civs or get that spaceships to some stupid far off place. As evident from all of our experiences, there are countless ways of doing that. To say that Republic is a requirement is simply wrong (never done that govt myself). To say that WL is a crutch - well, I only occassionally do it in my Science City and only by setting luxuries to 20-40% at most. It takes skills to grow your cities that way, thus a very valid strategy. And growing cities by 1 over a 50/20/10 year span is realistic. And luxuries at 80% is whoring?! Think of a small college town on the day of a big football game. I have witness towns of 10,000 swell to 125,000 (temporarily though). I have lived in cities in So.Cal that grew from 40,000 to 140,000 in only 10 years! Geez, next thing someone will say is that Pyramids are required. Sorry, just rambling...

[Sieve Too]

Steve brings up an interesting point. The setup for WLT_D is so severe that by the time I am ready, more often than not I'll have already discovered Democracy. So often I just skip Rep altogether and dive right into Dem.

[JERandall]

Ugh, I promised myself I wouldn't join in this discussion, but I just have to get this off my chest.

Saying that WLT_D is "unrealistic" is meaningless. Also meaningless is saying that ICS, or Wonder effects, or the movement rate of Armor, or anything else in the game is "unrealistic" -- because it is a *game*, not a simulation, and *not* reality.

Comparisons to real-world events, such as the swelling population of Bangalore or whever, are also irrelevant.

No, what is at isssue here is simply whether WLT_D is a crutch, or not. Personally, I don't believe it is; I believe (like Ming, et al.) that the designers intended for it to be used just as it is being used -- for explosive population growth, when managed correctly. (This is starting to sound like a Constitutional debate -- "original intent" and all that!)

I propose a solution to the differences of opinion:

(1) against the computer in single-player, do whatever you want... use WLT_D, don't use it; use ICS, don't use it; use the cheat menu, don't use it. It's a game, for fun, and whichever way amuses you the most is the "right" way to play.

(2) against other players in multi-player, agree before the game what is and is not acceptable. Don't play with people who use strategies you believe are "crutches" or "cheating".

There. Now can't we all just get along? :-)


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JERandall

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by shamrock on 05-06-2000 02:32 PM Venger- I think we may be at an impasse regarding your central point. I interpret "This can result in dramatic growth of the city" as a clear indication of programmer intent. You do not.

I guess I don't think it was designed to be a global explosion. I think they expected may 2 or 3 turns of it in a city. But not 7 or 8 turns of it for the entire Civ.

HOWEVER: apparently they thought it would come and go quite a bit, that's why they allowed you to turn the message off...

quote: So let's put that aside and talk about some of the other points you bring up. 1) LACK OF REALISM: Judging by some of your comments (i.e. "find it ridiculous" and "population whoring"), I think you regard the population explosion of WLTPD as highly unrealistic.

Somewhat unrealstic. Again, if this was restricted such that it couldn't occur for 10 turns in a row, for every city in your Civ, I'd be more on board with it.

quote: As Hydey as already alluded to, perhaps it isn't so ridiculous. Consider the following example from modern times. In 1975, Bombay had a population of ~6 mil. In 1995, the population had exploded to over 15 mil - less than 20 yrs to double! (Hey hardcore civers: what is that in game terms? Like a size 34 city going to 55 or so?) Now this pop explosion was certainly not due to happiness, but it does show that it can happen. And during the early part of the game, 20 yrs = 1 turn - now that's a population explosion!

Certainly not due to WLTXD, more likely We Can't Keep Our Knickers On Day.

quote: 2. PEGGED LUXURIES/5X TRADE: For one, you certainly don't need to "peg luxuries" to enjoy WLTPD. As has already been stated, efficiently using WLTPD is not trivial, and if you do it right, you can often enjoy the benefits at a mere 40% lux rate. I don't think you'll ever see "5x trade," but you certainly do see benefits across the board that are related to increased population.

In my current game (second playing ToT), I'm getting it in a ton of cities at 30%. Just lasts for a few turns though in each city, until the next trade route, wonder, improvement, etc. is built. But I keep luxuries just to where it keeps me out of disorder.

quote: 3. WINNING WITHOUT IT: Interesting proposition - I'm always looking for new ways to make the game a challenge, i.e. no wonders, launch spaceship by certain date, OCC, etc. Maybe I should add the No (intentional) WLTXD's Challenge or No Democracy/Repulic Govt. Challenge or No Luxuries Challenge. I'd be willing to try these things but only because I see it as making the game more challenging on its own terms, not because I am relinquishing a "crutch."

In the current rule set there is limited action available. Can we cap luxuries, 40% maybe? Or remove WLTXD? If so, I'm all for it. Maybe cap Luxuries at 30%.

Ideally, I think that to get WLTXD, you'd need not only half happy, but:

x% literacy
0 pollution
no more than 2 military units in the field

and some other things that would make it a little rarer.

quote: All right, I've rambled enough. Look forward to your comments and don't be too hard on Crustacean.

Well, looks like Ming nuked my response. After all that hard work to clean it up, his post is an HTML mess...

Venger

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by SilverDragon on 05-07-2000 01:32 PM WLTxD is part of the game. Get used to it.

Well that was enlightening. I think that's what they tell new prisoners - assrape is part of the sentence. Get used to it.

Venger