Artificial Intelligence? More like CHEATER!

Gatekeeper · May 12, 2000, 22:34

Everyone:

Civ II's AI is a piece of crap cheating hunk of living sh*t!!!! I'm so PO'd right now at it I can't see straight! Damn f*cking thing ruined an entire damn game! Person shouldn't have to save every damn turn to prevent f*cking AI cheating!

Hope those damn programmers learn how to tweak their coding in the next go-around.

Piece of crap AI.

CYBERAmazon

------------------
Resistance is futile. Lower your shields and disable your weapons. You will be assimilated into the Borg Collective.

Mao · May 12, 2000, 22:38

Mind telling us how the AI screwed you? What was it? Submarine come out of no where and destroy your invasion force? Nukes come flying from no where? Space ship suddenly gets complete?

The Mad Monk · May 13, 2000, 00:17

The last time I was that angry at the AI, it pulled the 'can't ask them to leave, because of imminent sneak attack' trick--with the added fun fact that the squatters were sitting on the mines that supplied three-quarters of the forces in that area!

CA, don't let it get to ya. Go into RULES.txt, give your units impossibly high attacks and moves, and let loose.

You'll feel better, trust me.

Venger · May 13, 2000, 01:15

quote:

Originally posted by CYBERAmazon on 05-12-2000 10:34 PM
Everyone:

Civ II's AI is a piece of crap cheating hunk of living sh*t!!!! I'm so PO'd right now at it I can't see straight! Damn f*cking thing ruined an entire damn game! Person shouldn't have to save every damn turn to prevent f*cking AI cheating!

Dude...chill the f#ck OUT! You must be playing on Deity...don't look at it as cheating. Look at it as advanced handicapping...sure, they roll out 15 cruise missiles against my Navy the second they discover rocketry. Sure, they can build Mechanized Infantry in a size 4 city every turn. Sure, they move all of their units into positions around your cities then suprise attack, with no consequences. It's humiliating, I know, but God damn it, take it like a man!!

quote:

Hope those damn programmers learn how to tweak their coding in the next go-around.

That's the one piece of criticism that's not really been addressed with all of the Civ2-X releases. The AI - still sucks.

Venger

Gatekeeper · May 13, 2000, 01:39

Mao:

**insane laughter** The AI has done all of those things to me in the past — but not this time. This time, I paid the price for being a perfectionist and attempting to *help* a the Sioux Empire.

Basically, the Sioux had located "B" city only two squares away from "A" city. The radi were horribly interlocking — right up to each city's city limits. Since "B" city was only size 2, I destroyed the Sioux unit there (via "cheat" menu), put in a barbarian unit, then used one of my units to destroy the "barbarian" city. At that point, I went back and created a veteran engineer for the Sioux and located it it PROPERLY so the new city would be more realistic, in terms of gameplay.

Somehow, the Sioux took that as an attack on them. After calling my empire a minor province of their empire, they let loose. Not so much damage, but I was so PO'd at that point I lost it. Killed every civilization via "cheat" and ended up with a pyrhhic "Nazca the Just" rating.

Whatever. Talk about irony.

Anyway, I've done this many times before and this was the *first* time the AI had ever taken it as an attack by my empire on it. It just threw me into a tizzy — as indicated in my original post

.

Probably just dumb of me to even aid the AI, but I'm looking for REALISM in my scenario/games.

CYBERAmazon

------------------
Resistance is futile. Lower your shields and disable your weapons. You will be assimilated into the Borg Collective.

Gatekeeper · May 13, 2000, 01:42

Mad Monk:

**LOL** It's sorely tempting to do just that sometimes. Can't though ... if I want that type of game, I simply play at the Chieftain level. Fairly good stress reliever at that level of play.

BTW, I've created a pair of customized units (airship and elite corps) that allow one to kick butt in the ancient and modern eras, respectively. AI gets to use them, too, though

.

CYBERAmazon

------------------
Resistance is futile. Lower your shields and disable your weapons. You will be assimilated into the Borg Collective.

Gatekeeper · May 13, 2000, 01:47

Venger:

Take it like a man? Bwa-hahahaha! **cough** Ahem. Actually, I do most of the time. Other times the AI has really PO'd me, I've simply created 100 nuclear missiles and taken out every AI city on Earth.

This go-around just annoyed the hell out of me for some reason. Probably because I wasn't expecting it (see my reply to Mao). Basically, I ended up losing because now I have to re-start a new game.

**sigh** Nukes are definitely more joyous at ending the AI's aspirations. The "kill civilization" option in the "cheat" menu sometimes is, um, too sanitized

.

AI doesn't really improve, huh? Doesn't surprise me. That kind of work would require re-releasing the game after a bunch of work at the source level. I play the Macintosh version of Civ II and Civ II Gold. The latter version has a terrible habit of crashing upon exiting the application. Brian Nesse was never able to figure out a solution to that, short of eradicating the MP part of the game to get at the problem.

CYBERAmazon

------------------
Resistance is futile. Lower your shields and disable your weapons. You will be assimilated into the Borg Collective.

cavebear · May 13, 2000, 10:04

Cyber - I can certainly empathize with your frustration. The AI needs fewer shields to build units and Wonders, it always knows where everything is, it can always get whatever it wants (treaties, techs) from othe AI civs, etc.

It was only just recently that I discovered that it will even create units out of thin air! One went to war with my, attacking an outlying city. It took most of my accumulated and delivered defensive units to save it from Tanks, and an arriving Fighter squadron discovered a column of the damn things coming at me. On investigating further, I found an ENDLESS column of them.

After a while, in frustration, I opened a saved file in cheat mode. The AI was building Tanks in 3 cities, each one taking 4 turns. So, that was less than 1 Tank per turn. Yet I was destroying 2 or 3 each turn and the column never got smaller!

What's the point of playing a game like that?

I think playing the AI has made me worse in playing against humans!

Gatekeeper · May 13, 2000, 19:35

Cavebear:

Who knows with the AI. Personally, I haven't encountered the "unlimited army" you described — then again, I play the Macintosh version, so maybe it got fixed. Referring back to my first sentence, I think it's impossible to predict the AI production pattern once it's declared war on you.

I've seen AI cities (over a dozen more than once) sitting in "Capitalization" mode, almost like the AI's waiting for something to happen. Usually a war with you or another AI. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if the AI then switched the "Capitalization" cities back into production. In my case, that meant 12 divisions of armor bearing down on me that hadn't been there the previous turn.

Ouch.

CYBERAmazon

------------------
Resistance is futile. Lower your shields and disable your weapons. You will be assimilated into the Borg Collective.

May 14, 2000, 11:15

What about the horesmen that can bribe your units?

Chainsaw · May 14, 2000, 13:50

MY opinion about the cheating AI:
If the AI wouldnt cheat, what would be the point? One would ALWAYS win in SP, no chance of even a trace of resistance. In my opinion, the AI should be more clever, instead of a cheater. For example more consequent in a war, bulding MANY units, attacking in larger numbers at once, dont offer peace after losing a city or after conquering just some of your cities...this list could go on for a long time.
The AI has to cheat, because it doesnt act just slightly intelligent.

shmily_dana · May 15, 2000, 11:38

I had a game where the AI discovered armor and suddenly attack with 5 tanks and only had 3 cities on the island. The AI did not have the cash to rush build these tanks. Inspection in cheat mode of the AI cities revealed partially built units in all cities.

My rule is if I catch the AI cheating (it has to be real obvious) I get to delete AI units in the cheat menu. I consider this the same as when I played checkers with my cousin and he would try to sneak pieces on the board if he was losing.

Steve Clark · May 15, 2000, 11:44

Whatsa matter, can't beat the AI? Instead of coming here pissed off, learn the ways of beating them at their own game. Come on, there are a number of people here purposely handicap themselves just to get some semblance of a challenge against the AI. If they can win by building one city in the polar region, what does it say for the rest of us? For me, I wish the AI would 'cheat' more just to provide more of a challenge in the early game.

And don't get me started on 'realism'.

Bohlen · May 15, 2000, 11:54

Hmmmm...CA, you are upset that the AI "cheated" after you yourself used the cheat menu? Maybe there was an electronic crackle coming from your Mac that you didn't hear. Maybe the AI said, "Human players are pieces of crap cheating hunks of living sh*t!!!! I'm so PO'd right now at this guy I can't see straight! Damn f*cking thing ruined an entire damn game! An AI shouldn't have to save every damn turn to prevent f*cking human cheating!" Now that would be irony.

Seriously though, I have seen the AI "cheat" several times to keep the game even. I understand that the production boxes are smaller, that is understandable, but when a city builds 12 city improvements in one turn after I just destroyed them all (including city walls), now that is cheating. I feel your pain. I just expect the cheating anymore. The AI will try and screw you if you don't get a civ under control early enough.

Oldman · May 15, 2000, 11:59

Yeah i second that Steve!! I am just playing through occ5, where you have one square of land for you one city!!! and i'm thrashing 6 other civs on deity, but i'm still not going to beat paul or huey AC landing time!!!

And i'm seriously not that good?!?!

------------------
Oldman,

"There are not more than 5 musical notes..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 primary colours..." - Sun Tzu
"There are not more than 5 cardinal tatses..." - Sun Tzu

and we build an Academy for this guy...

geofelt · May 15, 2000, 13:36

To make the game a challenge at higher levels, the programmers increase the level of cheating. It would be most difficult to do it with fairness. As to production, units, improvements, and wonders are not built city, by city as the human players do, instead, the AI gets the whole shield and gold production to allocate as it sees fit. This is simpler programming, and it also helps tocreate a challenge to the good human player.

Ming · May 15, 2000, 13:52

Yeah... you pointed out the biggest problem... "it's simpler programming"!

There are many ways they could make the game tougher at higher settings. Heck, just giving the AI access to more sophisticated combat programs at higher levels would do wonders for the game. Watching the computer spit out a unit every turn to attack a position it can't take for 1,000 years is enough to make me laugh...

But alas... it is much easier and cheaper for them to do it the way it was done. So we are the lossers when it comes to a challange. sigh...

The Mad Viking · May 15, 2000, 15:23

I've only played a few games, (one at each level up to my current large map Emp game) where I am faced with serious AI cheating. Well I'm basically a rookie, and though I'm sure it is worse in Deity, I agree with Steve Clark. Obviously we'd all prefer Artificial Intelligence to the Artificial Idiocy we get, but I'd rather have the handicaps than not.

And if you use the cheat mode for ANYTHING you aren't allowed to complain, let alone throw a hissyfit.

*adopts a holier than thou posture* I have never used the cheat mode for anything, ever. I know I should run a few research tests, but I don't want to have anything to do with the thing. Once you use it, you can always justify it.

But whatever turns you on.

Ming · May 15, 2000, 15:28

I don't care what people do when they are playing SP. The whole idea of the game is to have fun. If using the cheat menu to make civs disappear, or give yourself tons of tanks is something you consider fun, I don't care.
But, if you are going to post your results to be compared with others, or play MP... then I have a real problem with the cheat menu or some of the other little tricks that most of us agree are illegal

Steve Clark · May 15, 2000, 16:49

Say Ming, how come we've been getting more OT posters here? Aren't there any diabolical debates going on to keep them busy?

Ming · May 15, 2000, 17:56

I welcome all the OTF's that want to post ON TOPIC. This is still a Civ site last time I checked

New blood in the On Topic forums is always appreciated, as long as they come here to post On Topic.

------------------
Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

Gatekeeper · May 15, 2000, 18:49

quote:

Originally posted by geofelt on 05-15-2000 01:36 PM
To make the game a challenge at higher levels, the programmers increase the level of cheating. It would be most difficult to do it with fairness. As to production, units, improvements, and wonders are not built city, by city as the human players do, instead, the AI gets the whole shield and gold production to allocate as it sees fit. This is simpler programming, and it also helps tocreate a challenge to the good human player.

***

Geofelt:

That goes quite a distance toward explaining why the AI can build 600-shield wonders in two or three turns without spending money or using caravans/freights/disbanding units to get what it needs.

If an AI civ has collective shield output of 1000, and it can allocate at will, that certainly does make for a challenge, as does the reduced shield box at higher stages.

CYBERAmazon

***

Everyone:

Thanks for the contributions to this thread. As for myself, I never used the "cheat" menu until seeing — and being unable to explain — AI behavior that just didn't jive, so to speak. The only time I use it now is when my city has three or four veteran spies housed in it and the AI STILL gets your most advanced technology. Sorry, but mobile warfare simply doesn't fit in an Iron Age society.

Never have played multi-player, either. My dial-up Web connection probably isn't steady enough (read: 100 percent of the time) to allow for safe multi-playing. Saving up for a ADSL or cable connection

.

CYBERAmazon

------------------
Resistance is futile. Lower your shields and disable your weapons. You will be assimilated into the Borg Collective.

Thue · May 18, 2000, 11:18

quote:

<font size=1>Originally posted by Chainsaw on 05-14-2000 01:50 PM</font>
MY opinion about the cheating AI:
If the AI wouldnt cheat, what would be the point? One would ALWAYS win in SP, no chance of even a trace of resistance. In my opinion, the AI should be more clever, instead of a cheater. For example more consequent in a war, bulding MANY units, attacking in larger numbers at once, dont offer peace after losing a city or after conquering just some of your cities...this list could go on for a long time.
The AI has to cheat, because it doesnt act just slightly intelligent.

He. Try a game of freeciv and get squahed by an (almost) non-cheating AI on the easy level where it has already been purposely limited :P

[This message has been edited by Thue (edited May 18, 2000).]

poppawoppa · May 19, 2000, 02:04

Recently in a diety game, I had an AI civ take out the final defender with its bomber, and then an engineer walked into the city and took it !!! I didn't knoe that an engineer could do that. They aren't combatants, and of course a bomber cant land in an enemy city with no enemy defenders...and a destroyer or transport cant go into the empty city...so I wonder why could the engineer? Anyone know, or have a bunch of you had this happen?

Gatekeeper · May 19, 2000, 02:55

Poppawoppa:

It used to happen a lot to me ... that is, until I started slaughtering the bastards whenever they got near territory in wartime.

CYBERAmazon

------------------
Resistance is futile. Lower your shields and disable your weapons. You will be assimilated into the Borg Collective.

catullus · May 19, 2000, 06:31

Sure, any ground unit except diplo/spy and caravan/freight can take cities. Metoo discovered that the hard way. After that, I've even pulled that stunt myself a couple of times...

C.