Any news about Civ-3 government-types?

[Ralf]

Have any news been released so far about Civ-3 government-types? How many are they?

[Gangerolf]

In thisscreenshot it says:

President Abraham Lincoln
The Americans Despotism

So I guess despotism is in. A bit strange the leader's title is "President" and not "Emperor" as in civ2 though.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
A bit strange the leader's title is "President" and not "Emperor" as in civ2 though.

Well, on second thoughts maybe it's not that strange... I guess there have been (and probably still are) some despots who have calling themselves President.

[tniem]

I guess that means S.E. is out. At least I assume it does which is too bad. I really wanted S.E. in Civ III.

[Ecthy]

no unit workshop, no SE... what a mess already...

[DarkCloud]

That screenshot could mean that the rulers will have titles that DO NOT change when a person changes GOVERNMENT... Firaxis- NOTE: This is a bad idea

If I want America to be Communist the leader's title should either be
A: Customizable
B: "Comrade"

[tniem]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
no unit workshop, no SE... what a mess already...

So is S.E. definitely out?

[DarkCloud]

Yes.

[Ecthy]

I hope not

[Andreiguy]

One of the few things that I think CTP and CTP2 were better in than Civ II (yes, it's hard to admit, but there are a few) are the government types.

I especially like Theocracy, Technocracy, Ecotopia, Corporate Republic, Virtual Democracy, and (i didn't like this, I just thought it was historical), Fascism. They should all be included IMO!

[Ralf]

Originally posted by tniem
I guess that means S.E. is out. At least I assume it does which is too bad. I really wanted S.E. in Civ III.

Good news! I have never believed that SMAC-style Social Engineering was that suitable for Civ-3, anyway. I mean, how the heck was the game-designer at Firaxis suppose to objectively cut-and-glue all these pluses and minuses anyway, for all those subjective political-, economical-, religious- and life-in-general viewpoints out there, into a believable earthly S.E. system?

SMAC was a different case: One was playing "test-tube societys" on a strange & far away planet.

But in Civ-3 we are talking about earth, where everybody is his own political-, historical- and life-viewpoint expert. I say: it was a good thing that they went for those Civ-2 "take it or leave it" government types. Its hard enough as it is, tweaking those I suspect.

I hope however that they add some extra government-types - besides the already excisting ones in Civ-2.

[Captain]

I favour the 'build-your-own' type government that someone proposed earlier, but this is pretty much out of consideration for civ3.

But just to throw the idea out again (with some modifications)
you would select whether to combine all power into dictatorship, or to split into branches such as executive (administration, ministries), legislative (parliaments/congress/assembly), and judicial (courtrooms).
these being dependent on 'advances' such as the rule of law or 'events' like Magna Carta.

within these, you'd make more choices, just like SE from SMAC. admittedly trying to balance views will be very difficult so perhaps the best thing might just be to separate government and economic systems. Thus by a little mix and match, you could get a socialist despot, a communist democracy, or a free market monarchy.

[tniem]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Yes.

But I mean, has been announced or been said by Firaxis? Or is it just your (probably correct) hypothesis due to the known information?

[Ralf]

To all of you who mourns the S.E. system:

Why check out what Korn469 suggested a couple of months ago. Perhaps a little of this can be added on top of the fixed government-types. Personally, I would prefer a little though.

Click on the Ordinances: a simple idea to improve government in Civ3 (aka plz read Firaxis) thread. Any comments? Be sure to add it to the linked thread though - so that it gets kicked back in on the main forum-page.

[Gramphos]

According to the latest Preview, a new government will be Nationalism.

[Ecthy]

I've counted pro-arguments for SE in CIV3 often enough. I've even counted lots of arguments against that crap so many people are talking, about "cut-and-glue" etc...

tell me, what's the difference between the CIV2-democracy and a democracy that results from social engineering? eh? well?

is "+1 trade on each square, unit outside of city makes 2 citizens unhappy" etc., is it that much LESS "cut-and-glue" than exactly the same government form as a result of SE?

don't you guys get it? the old system just sucks big time... SE is more flexible, it allows more options and is also way mor realistic!! if you want a COMPLETELY realistic government model (as so many here say in order to state their critical pointtowards SE), you have to invent a new one... the old one sucks, it's a shame they're leaving out SE

[korn469]

it appears from the new pc.ign preview that civ3 will use governments instead of SE...also since no review or interview has mentioned a major overhall of the government system i think that you can infer that SE is dead, which i personally think is crap, because i think that SE is better than the civ2 government system...in any game you are going to have to make some arbitrary choices, and everyone who is for the civ2 government system seem to think that the ONE version of democracy represented in civ2 is not just an arbitrary set of numbers for game balance (which it is) but some kind of true model of real world democracy while the well over 25 variations of democracy in SMAC is completely arbitrary and too confusing to become emotionally attached to...plus compared to the civ democracy the high number of variation just doesn't cut it in terms of real world modeling

those arguments are completely wrong!

but it's not so much i want SMAC SE in civ3...i want something much BETTER...not something worse (which in my opinion the government system is)

by better i mean something that is more fun and brings the player more into the game and just makes the game that much more in depth, be it an overhaul of the government system or an upgrade of SE

however this is what the information at hand leads me to believe civ3 will have

anarchy
despotism (screen shot)
monarchy
republic
democracy
communism (at least one preview)
nationalism (numerous previews)

korn469

[Stefu]

I don't know if Nationalism is such a good idea for government. It's an ideology, not a goverment type! 'course, Civ2 had Fundamentalism (which is religious viewpoint) and Communism (an economic system) but still Nationalism just doesn't quite fit in. IMHO of course.

And it sucks that SE is going. I loved SE. Allowed you to create your own system, it did. Firaxis should at least give us possibility to change our Government type (Despotism, Monarchy, Democracy) and our economical system (Autarchy, Mercantilism, Socialism).

[Gangerolf]

Nationalism? Will it have the same effects as Fundamentalism in Civ2? I hope not, because it was totally unrealistic.

Also, I think Nationalism is a strange name for a government type. Maybe Firaxis thinks of it as another word for Fascism. IMO that's wrong, because Nationalism is more like an attitude (admiration of your own country) than a type of government, and not necessarily the same as Fascism.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Stefu
I don't know if Nationalism is such a good idea for government. It's an ideology, not a goverment type! 'course, Civ2 had Fundamentalism (which is religious viewpoint) and Communism (an economic system) but still Nationalism just doesn't quite fit in. IMHO of course.

Oops! I didn't see that post when I wrote my post. So I didnt mean to repeat you. Nice to see that someone shares my opinions though. I guess Firaxis is a bit afraid to use "politically incorrect" or "hot" words.

[Jaguar]

Nationalism is just supposed to be a tech, not a gov, according to my magazine.

[Gramphos]

Rather than paying a production upkeep for your units, you will pay gold instead. This frees up shields for production but puts a slightly higher strain on your economy. The solution to this lies in the game's new government, Nationalism. Available later in the game, Nationalism is analogous to the ideology of early nineteenth century Europe. Think Napoleon here. To switch to Nationalism your culture rating must be quite high. The benefit of Nationalism is that you can mobilize your economy for war or peace. Mobilizing for war halves the cost of all military units and improvements, but doubles all others. Once mobilized for war, you must select an enemy. You cannot switch out of a wartime economy until the war ends. Mobilizing for peace has the opposite effect, halving the cost of other improvements, but doubling your military expenditures.

Nationalism will be a government.

[Dr.Oogkloot]

I don't think Nationalism or Ecotopia are kinds of government, just special issues.

I'd like to see a variety of evil and less evil dictatorships, too

[To_Serve_Man]

I am saddened to see such little news about government types. As a student of several Philosophy types (Political, Social and Metaphysics ) The governments of Civ(insert number here from 1 to 2) were so pulled by biased and stereotypical ideas that they were not governments, they were biased views that your 8th grade history books told you.

I see Civ3 as a reformer. A game of progressive ideas and rules, unlike the earlier makes of the game. With the addition of Culture in Civ3 as it has been so plainly talked about by Firaxis employees, one can truly make governments what they are. I urge the Firaxis employees and anyone else who wants, to read the works of Hegel. a 19th cent. philosopher from Germany(actually Prussia).

It is evident that in Civilization two, many governments were not what they truly are. Communism was more of a Police State (the Ancient Greek city of Sparta comes to mind) than a classless society. Because the 'Communist' nations in the world we live in today may not be what Karl Marx had in mind, that does not mean they should be like the real life governments they replicate.

Government is a very large part of Civilization. I hope that you put more effort into the Governments of Civ3 that in past Civ games.

Another example, the REPUBLIC, is a state that tries to uphold the true meaning of JUSTICE. It has been distorted and turned into some huge Money Grubbing Capitalistic machine. Plato, the ancient Greek philosopher tried to create a master government, which would uphold his view of true Justice, and that is the Republic.

We are so easy to accept what the local news wo/man says on the six thirty news and what your history teacher told you, but there is so much more... please, take your time with government Firaxis, its a hard subject.

"Cogito, ergo sum" - Descartes
Latin - English translation: I think, there fore I am

[SerapisIV]

I do not think that governments of civ should in any way be a reflection of idealized government types. They should be general abstracts of the real world governments they are designed to replicate. If I choose communism in civ, I do not expect to see a workers paradise that Marx and Lenin believed in, I want to see the oppressive, inefficient, police state that actually exists in present day communist nations. The hell with political treatises, governments in civ should give the benefits and negatives that there real world governments provided. A more important then even that is that they are fun and play-tested to be balanced against each other. If it isn't fun, who cares how real it is.

[Geoff the Medio]

If this is slightly unrelated to the topic being discussed, sorry.

As far as I could tell, the decisions of the senate in democracy and republic in CivII were completely arbitrary. It would often force me into peace at very... illogical times... like when another civ has started a war with me, then wants peace before I can recuperate from or retalieate for whatever damage they'd done. It'd be nice if the senate considered the situation somehow... and didn't force peace when it shouldn't... (just in time to prevent me from liberating cities/striking back)

of course I could be wrong... did the senate act more reasonable for others...?

[To_Serve_Man]

@ Serapis IV

Then what's the point of naming the governments? Just call them what they are, like Capitalistic, Police State, Kingdom. The reason they have names like Democracy and Communism is because they represent an idea. Even though that idea was not fully created in real life doesn't mean that the IDEA is gone. Make Governments what they were meant to be. There are plenty of Democracies in the real world, but that does not mean they are ALL are the same. Some have presidents, some have Prime Ministers, some have Chanclers, some have coalition governments... which abstraction would you pick then to be the Civ3 Democracy? Or instead, Firaxis can make Governments what they were truly meant to be.

[tniem]

Its too bad that SE is gone which I will assume from what I have read and what you have all said.

However, Nationalism is not a government, it is an idea in a country. So may be, I am hoping and grasping for straws here, Nationalism is a choice in S.E. that benefits your nation. When you chose the belief Nationalism over Religion or something like that your country does whatever benefits Firaxis decides. Any way it is a hope that introduction of Nationalism is not the end of S.E. that will keep me going for a few days.

I become more and more disappointed with civ3 every time I hear more "news". Now SE is gone! Why did they bother making another civ at all?

[MagnusL]

Originally posted by To_Serve_Man
@ Serapis IV

Then what's the point of naming the governments? Just call them what they are, like Capitalistic, Police State, Kingdom. The reason they have names like Democracy and Communism is because they represent an idea. Even though that idea was not fully created in real life doesn't mean that the IDEA is gone.

Please note that Democracy and Communism are not mutually exclusive.. For example, a communistic country could be ruled by the people through direct-democracy..

IF there will be a "government model" (?) called "Communism" in CivIII, there should also be a "government model" called "Capitalism".. (observe that IRL neither of them is a "government model", wich Democracy is.).

BUT I think that the "government model" "Communism" should be removed entierly simply because it is not a "government model". Instead they really should have a SE system (as in SMAC)..