396 Ad

[samson]

Deity, 7 civs, raging hoards, small map, playing as Americans.

A size16 SSC plus eight size3 helper cities.

1550 BC COPERNICUS
750 COLOSSUS
525 SHAKESPEARE
275 ISAAC NEWTON
225 Superhighways
1 AD Flight
140 Space Flight
160 APOLLO
360 Launch 15-1-1-1-1-1 spaceship
396 Arrive AC

From the time INU was built until the end of the game I got 1 turn advances.
At its peak, just before the discovering of Flight, the SSC had 238 trade arrows
with 3 routes of 40 each, producing 1428 beakers at 100% science.

samson

[Scouse Gits]

Amazing result! Many congratulations.

Looking forward to reading the detailed log and notes on your strategy to place in the GL .....are you sure that date has not lost a "1" at the start?

Could you send me your 4000BC save?
git2@scousers.net

-----------

SG(2)

[La Fayette]

samson
It's a pity Mark G et alien did not give us any possibility to print GOLDEN CAPITAL LETTERS.
Your forthcoming log sure deserves them.

[Scouse Gits]

Wow!

[Paul]

Wow, Samson, well done.

[DaveV]

Amazing! I'd been considering cranking up an ICS style fast landing game, but I can't imagine beating this result. Thanks for saving me the time and effort .

[samson]

Thanks, all.

I didn't keep a log. I wasn't expecting this to be a breakthrough game, just another test of the strategy that's been evolving on the early landing thread. I guess I can construct one -- I kept saves after every turn for analysis. But here's the key strategic element:

The intended strategy was to set up domestic trade routes from all helper cities into the SSC. The focus of trade was to be on arrows, not bonuses. Ala DaveV, I was going to build roads and rail between cities to get the 50% road and railroad bumps for the routes. But the Egyptians changed all that.

Early in the game, they set down Memphis 3 squares from my SSC. I sent in an early caravan and got a +6 trade route. I wanted the road bonus for this route so I prioritized Bridge Building (they were camped at the edge of my river system.) When I got all the bridges down the route bumped to +9. By then I had 3 routes to that city and Colossus.

Next I went for Railroad and converted the roads to rail. This bumped the routes to +12. So, in essence, these were +3 routes multiplied 4X by cumulative 100% (foreign), 50% (road) and 50% (rail) modifiers.

Then came Shakespeare's and the We Love! expansion up to a size 16 city, at which point the SSC ran out of food -- I had 3 settlers and an engineer at work, but still couldn't improve the land fast enough. The size of the city ran each of those routes up to +22, contributing 66 arrows to a total trade of 142. With the INU build, I started getting one turn advances and rushed forward to Automobile.

Building Superhighways added another 50% bonus to the trade routes taking them to +33 each. At this point I realized I had neglected to build roads on my specials and so their arrows were not being boosted by Superhighways. When I got that done the trade routes were at +40. This meant 120 of the 238 arrows in the city were from trade routes. The highest routes I can remember ever having before were about +22.

Memphis was a size 5 city built on, and surrounded by, plains with access to only 2 rivers and one ocean for natural trade. Yet as a road/rail partner to the SSC, it contributed half of the total trade in that city. My SSCs have always ended up just a bit short of 1 turn advances. With the Memphis routes in this game, they had more than enough to provide 1 turn advances for the last 20 techs I needed.

After building Superhighways (in 200BC), I realized Space Flight was only about 15 turns away, and Fusion Power possibly 5 turns after that. I was already in the end game. So I never got to try out the domestic trade route idea. I only got 3 or 4 domestic routes going before I started hoarding caravans for the SS.

Another stroke of luck with Memphis - 2 of its commodities, Dye and Beads, were ones that the SSC supplied. And Memphis was a repeat demand city, they could never get enough Dye and Beads (must have been a bunch of hippies living there.)
And the SSC often had Dye available for supply, so I was able to run a number of freights into Memphis for 400+ gold when I was strapped for cash.

In the end, I had Fusion Power in 300AD but wasn't able to launch until 3 turns later, the usually late game scramble - selling off improvements, disbanding NON units, begging cash from allies, etc. Next time, I have got to get my production capacity up.

The road/rail connection to a foreign city from the SSC was the key strategic element in this game, it allowed that long string of 1 turn end game advances. I believe this has implications for OCC play as well. A 1000AD OCC landing may well be within reach using this technique.

The most satisfying thing about this discovery, is that it reduces the importance of having a perfect SSC location. I think with some further refinement an approach that combines an OCC-style SSC, road/rail routes to a foreign city, domestic routes, and some overseas high-bonus freights could regularly secure pre-500AD landings. Actually, I have found the discovery and development of a strategy of early landings more rewarding than merely setting a record. Even the wrong turns, like the STC idea, were fun.

samson

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by samson
Another stroke of luck with Memphis - 2 of its commodities, Dye and Beads, were ones that the SSC supplied. And Memphis was a repeat demand city, they could never get enough Dye and Beads (must have been a bunch of hippies living there.)
And the SSC often had Dye available for supply, so I was able to run a number of freights into Memphis for 400+ gold when I was strapped for cash.

The road/rail connection to a foreign city from the SSC was the key strategic element in this game,
samson

It won't be a stroke of luck if we all look for it from now on. Adam Smith named it 'repeated commodity' and used it a lot (so did I ), but it seems that you have brought it to some kind of perfection (until someone discovers an even more performing method ).
The question I'm now asking myself reading you is about the location of Memphis:
Is it more performing to choose an island city (getting the 2 continents bonus all the way) or a city like Memphis (starting with roads, then getting railroads, then motorways)?

(solo and you are really dragging me from ww2 and Rome scenarios; make me feel like reopening my lab )

[samson]

Here's the game log, constructed from saves. A bit sketchy towards the end, I think I missed a few caravan deliveries.

The earliest save I found was 3800BC, so before that is from memory.

Starting techs: Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws

4000 Settler1 tips hut-horseman, horse moves W finds river, settler2 moves E.
3950 Horse tips hut-chariot, chariot moves N on river find Babylonians in a great location.
Babylonians destroyed-Masonry. settler1 moves W to river, settler2 moves E finds river.
3900 Horse goes S, chariot N, settler1 on site, settler2 pops hut-archer, finds 2 gold site.
3850 Washington(2 gold, silk, wheat) founded by settler2. New York (gold, wheat) founded.
3800 Archer tips hut-nomads (this hut was on a plains square, but quite close to Washington)
3750 Researching Monarchy (18 beakers) - workers set to time discovery for next oedo year.
3700 Nomad founds Atlanta (wine, 3 rivers, shared gold with W). Horse tips mountain hut-Nomad.
I got 3 Nomads in this game, using the first two to found early cities.
3650 Monarchy, MONARCHY. Researching Writing (24 beakers). workers set for 12 beakers.
Chariot tips hut-Advanced tribe, Chicago - lousy site.
3600 W-warrior
3550 Writing, researching Currency (36 beakers) science-12. NY-warrior. Nomad founds SF(gold, whale, buffalo)
3450 A-warrior. Egyptians-give all techs, alliance.
3400 Currency, researching Mapmaking (40 beakers) science-20. Mongols-give all techs, peace.
Archer tips hut for Nomad. C-warrior. NY-size2
3350 SF-warrior
3300 Mapmaking, researching Literacy (48 beakers) science-24. W-size2.Mapmaking to all, sharemaps.
3250 Zulus-give Monarchy, Writing, peace. hut-50g
3200 Literacy, researching Trade (63 beakers), science-21. Barbarians land near SF.
3050 Trade, researching Republic (81 beakers), science-21. W-library. C-size2
2850 Republic, REPUBLIC. Researching Construction (90 beakers), science-35. SF-size2. hut-Mysticism.
Republic & Trade to all (all techs to Mongols, we are SUPREME)
2800 W-temple, NY-settler (disorder), C-settler.
2750 W-size3. Chariot tips hut-Advanced tribe-Buffalo(wine).
2700 Construction, researching Mathematics (99 beakers), science-38. archer tips hut-horseman
2650 W-WeLove! Barb leader-150g
2600 W-size4, SF-settler. Egyptians found Memphis near Washington.
2550 Mathematics, researching Astronomy (120 beakers) science-33. W-S5. St. Louis founded (C)
2500 W-S6. Barbs appear near Buffalo.
2450 Barbs land near NY. W-WL! ends. hut-Warrior Code.
2400 Astronomy, researcing Iron Working (154 beakers), science-70. W-hides. Detroit founded (NY)
2350 Hides to Memphis (D)-80g.
2300 Iron Working, researching Bridge Building (165 beakers), science-77. A-hides. B-phalanx
barb leader-150g. French-give Republic, Writing, Trade, peace, sharemaps.
2200 Bridge Building, researching Philosophy (192 beakers), science-77.
2150 W-food caravan. SL-temple
2100 Philosophy, University, researching Medicine (216 beakers), science-68. B-S2 (disorder), SL-S2
2050 barb leader-150g, B-temple.
2000 Chicago (disbanded) builds settler (SL). D-temple, S2
1950 Medicine. A-food caravan
1900 W-food. New Orleans(whale, buffalo) founded (SF). hut-50g
1800 Theory of Gravity. Carthaginians-trade for Horseriding & Wheel, peace, sharemaps. A-S3 (disorder)
1700 Romans-give a bunch of techs, peace. French-trade for Banking.
1650 Researching Engineering (437 beakers), science-73. D-food caravan.
1600 W-food, SL-food. Science-92.
1550 W-COPERNICUS, science-127.
1500 Engineering, researching Invention (456 beakers) science-114.
1350 Invention, researching Democracy (475 beakers), science-71. NO-size2 (disorder)
1300 W-Dye, WeLove!
1250 W-size7. Dye to Memphis (D), 72gold. D-food. NY-size3
1200 W-Wl! ends. NY-temple, B-settler, A-temple, NO-temple.
1150 Democracy, researching Chemistry (513 beakers) science-160. W-Dye. Egyptians-trade for Seafaring
1100 Revolution! Anarchy, demand tribute from all-300gold.
1050 MONARCHY-demand tribute-100g, E-50g(gift) DEMOCRACY. W-University. D-size3
1000 W-marketplace.
975 Chemistry. SF-caravan. Dye to Thebes, 68 gold, 3rd route established.
950 SL-caravan, NO-caravan.
925 Navigation. D-caravan
900 NY-caravan, A-caravan
875 W-caravan, SL-size3
850 Physics.
825 B-caravan
800 Sanitation. Alliance with French-50g, war with Romans.
750 Washington-COLOSSUS. science-305
725 Steam Engine. SF-caravan, D-caravan, NO-caravan.
700 W-Copper. Romans-cease fire.
675 Railroad. Copper to Memphis, 102g, three +9 routes.
650 Industrialization, reseaching Magnetism (646 beakers) science-324.
600 Magnetism. Caravans-NY,A,SL.
575 D-Caravan. Egyptians-trade for Economics.
550 W-aqueduct. SF,NO-caravans.
525 Corporation. Washington-SHAKESPEARE, WeLove! F-50g, E-50g
500 W-size8 SF-size3
475 Gunpowder. W-S9. Baltimore founded (Buf)
450 W-S10
425 Explosives. W-S11
400 W-S12. Trade for Pottery(to clear tech tree)Freights-NY,A,D,SF,NO
375 Metallurgy. W-sewer system, S13. B-freight
350 Refining. W-S14
325 W-S15
300 Electricity. W-S16. Railroad to Memphis completed, 3 trade routes +22.
275 Washington-NEWTON's, WL! ends. Combustion. NO-Cloth to Washington, 112g.
250 Steel. B-Coal to Washington, 110g. NO-Copper to Washington, 110g.
225 Automobile.
200 Feudalism. W-Superhighways, trade routes +33 each. Science-998 (at 80%)
Balt-temple, size2. SF-Silver, SL-Copper.
175 Mass Production. A-Coal to Wash.
150 Chivalry. W-Bank. Freights-D, NO, NY
125 Conscription. Buf-freight.
100 Electronics. W-Factory. Freight-SF,Balt
75 Atomic Theory. Freight-A,SL
50 Leadership. Freight-NY,D,NO
25 Tactics. W-Hydro Plant. Buff-freight
1AD Machine Tools. Freight-NY,A,SF,SL,Balt
20 Flight. Freight-W,D,NO
40 Miniaturization. Freight-NY,Buff
60 Computers. Freight-W,A,SF,SL,Balt.
80 Radio. W-Research Lab. Freight-NY,D,NO Barbs near Atlanta
100 Advanced Flight. Buf-freight.
120 Rocketry. A-Cavalry. Barb leader-150g. Trade for Communism (to clear tech tree)
140 SPACE FLIGHT. Freights-NY,SF, SL.
160 Plastics. W-APOLLO. Balt-freight
180 Mobile Warfare.
200 Nuclear Fission. 2 structurals, 2 components
220 Nuclear Power.
240 Laser. 4 structurals.
260 Polytheism. 1 structural
280 Superconductor. 1 structural
300 Fusion Power. 1 module
320 2 structurals
340 2 modules. 2 structurals.
360 3 structurals. Launch 15-1-1-1-1-1.
...
396 Arrive AC.


Lafayette,

I always thought you got the best trade routes from cities on a different continent,
but now I think otherwise. I've never seen +40 routes before.
Bonuses pay better from second-continent cities, but I think the routes
are better with road/rail connections.

samson

[Jaguar]

Samson:
I once railroaded myself to an AI city for trade, but in my game the AI used the railroad as a spy superhighway and stole techs by the dozens. Did you have that problem?

[samson]

Dragon,

Nope.
Besides, I don't care if they steal techs -
saves me the trouble of giving them away.

[Jaguar]

Well this was when I liked being the purple civ, and i forgot to mention that they sabotaged later in the game.

[Ribannah]

Does anyone know if the (rail)road effect on trade routes is supposed to work in MGE?
I tried this same strategy a while ago, but nothing happened to my arrows from trade routes when my settlers finished the road and later the railroad. It was still helpful for delivering caravans and freight - as long as noone stepped on the line - but it was quite disappointing after all the hard work.

[samson]

Ribannah,

Yes, it works on MGE.
The problem with the road/rail bonus is that you can't just connect the two cities anywhichway.
There seems to be a particular route that must be used. If the two cities are in a direct diamond line,
that is the path that works. If they are skewed or if there are obstacles, it's often unclear which path will work.
I'm doing some testing to see if there is a consistent principle involved.

SGs, Paul, DaveV, LaFayette -

thanks again for your comments. It's been great having so many knowledgeable persons here to learn from.

samson

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Amazing results you guys are getting! Most of us are happy to reach AC before 1900...

Were the helper cities primarily camel stud farms, or did they get developed in any way? I think I'll try an early (relatively speaking) landing game, it sounds like fun.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by samson
Ribannah,

The problem with the road/rail bonus is that you can't just connect the two cities anywhichway.
There seems to be a particular route that must be used.

It wouldn't surprise me if that route would be the route chosen by the GoTo command ... if so, one of the things to test is what happens if the two cities are on opposite sides of the 0-meridian.

[EOL]

Originally posted by Ribannah


It wouldn't surprise me if that route would be the route chosen by the GoTo command ... if so, one of the things to test is what happens if the two cities are on opposite sides of the 0-meridian.

Indeed, in this case the road has to go all the way around the world even if the cities are just 2 squares apart.

[samson]

More info on trade routes and the road/rail modifier:

First, trade routes are not boosted when a city is located on another continent, nor does distance matter.
A trade route with a foreign city at the far end of the earth on a different continent
will produce the same number of arrows as one three squares away
if they have the same internal trade (worker generated arrows).
There is no two-continent boost for trade routes, only for delivery bonuses.
So the road and railroad route boosts (50% each) offer a significant advantage to local trade.

Second, if the road or rail is "blockaded" by another civ's unit (i.e. if they squat on the line)
the trade routes drop to the unboosted value. For example, if I have a unit on the rail route to a city
of a civ I am not alligned with - the trade route in my city gets full bonus
but the foreign city's trade route gets cut in half. If a third civ's unit squats on the line
we both lose the road/rail bonus. If you are aligned with the civ whose unit cuts the line,
you don't lose your bonus. This offers some tactical opportunities, trade-wise.
It also means you need to patrol and secure your trade route lines.

As to the question of the route being the GOTO route.
There is the further question of which one?
Units with different movement points take different paths when given the GOTO command.
Would it be the route taken by caravans and freights?
Or the one used by the settlers and engineers who build the roads?
Also, a unit may take a different path depending on which city it starts in.

Marquis - thanks.
The helper cities were size 3 with a temple the only improvement.
They built caravans - that was their life.

samson

[samson]

Still more info on trade routes.

The route.

The route required for the road/rail trade modifier is NOT the same as the route of the GOTO command. It seems that it must be the most direct route (as the crow flies) whereas units under the GOTO will take the fastest route, using rivers or other roads. In one case I tested between two same-civ cities sharing a trade route, the rail route required to boost the trade was different for each city. That is, one railroad boosted the route value of one city, but a second railroad was required to boost the other city's trade. However, only a single road was needed to the get the road boost.

Superhighways.

A superhighways improvement has a twofold effect on trade routes. First, it increases by 50% (rounded down) the trade of any city square which has a road in it. Thus, if all squares have roads and an even number of arrows, it is possible to increase the worker-generated trade by up to 50%.

This new value of generated trade is then used to calculate a new BASE value of each of the city's trade routes. If the trade increase was 50% then the base value of the trade routes could be increased by as much as 50%. In addition, Superhighways are a trade route modifier of 50% cummulative with the road and railroad modifiers, for a total of 150%.

For example, say a trade route with a foreign city has an initial base value of +8. If the two cities are connected by railroad along the correct route, this trade is boosted to +16 by the effect of two 50% modifiers. If Superhighways are added in the home city (a super-city contributing nearly all the trade to route's base value) and a 50% increase in trade occurs, the base route value is increased to +12. This is then boosted by 150% (road+rail+SH) resulting in a trade route of +30. The 50% Superhighways modifier only applies to trade routes of the city in which it is built. However, that city's trading partners gain the benefit of the increase in base value which the SH also creates.

Airports.

Airports act like a road, they provide a 50% modifier to trade routes. In order to obtain that increase, BOTH cities involved must build airports. If the two cities already have a road or railroad route, airports have NO EFFECT on their trade routes.


samson
(let me know if this is old stuff, or if I'm boring you.)

[Adam Smith]

Samson:
Thanks for the additional info.
You can find many of the basics you mention (eg., superhighways, airports) in the Two Continents Trade Strategy thread in the Great Library.

[samson]

Adam,

I've read that article and the Repeated Commodities strategy article, both are mainly about the delivery bonus of caravans and freights, not the ongoing trade routes. I've not seen one about the strategy of optimizing trade routes per se.

Getting three +40 routes from one small foreign city was a real eye-opener for me in this game and made a significant difference in the outcome. Without that, I would have landed perhaps 20-25 turns later (400-500 years).

samson

[Bohlen]

Excellent work! I wish I had that kind of patience to be that perfect. Well done!

[Jaguar]

Sorry if I'm wrong, but with three 40 trade routes, wouldn't the science count for the routes be:

120 from routes
240 with copes
360 with library
540 with university
810 with ike's
1215 with research lab


I think these trade routes helped you by a lot more than 20 - 25 turns.

[Jaguar]

Oh, and I forgot to add. If you send hides from city a to city b with repeating commodities, it only gives you the trade bonus of one route.

[Ecthy]

Well, that is definitely a great approach! Well done!

I for myself have never achieved an AC landing before 1750

[samson]

Bohlen, Ecthelion - thanks for the "well dones".

Dragon,

Without the road and rail connections those trade routes would have maxed out at about +20 in trade, which is what I usually get in an SSC. This would have meant getting 1 turn/tech
only once or twice instead of a string of 27 techs in a row (from 300BC to 300AD). That's what I meant when I said those +40 routes saved me 25 turns.

The 3 routes were established with unique commodities. Washington did have repeats on the stuff demanded by Memphis, but in going back over the game files to write up the log, I found that my late game cash caravans came into Washington from the helpers. My original statement about getting 400gold for them was in error. I guess my memory isn't that great, or I missed them when I sifted through the files to write the log. That's possible, too, I guess. I know I ended up with an engineer, yet I don't see that in the log anywhere.

But the freight bonuses weren't the key in this game, it was the ongoing trade routes.

Getting a foreign city built close enough to the SSC to build roads to, was a bit of a fluke. The SSC (which was my capitol) was way off to one side of my territory. All my expansion was in the other direction. It was a happy chance to ally with the Egyptians and have them move in so close to the SSC. I don't expect to see that happen often.

samson

[solo]

samson,

I just got back from chopping wood in New Hampshire, so apologize for the delay in replying to this post.

First of all, a terrific effort here! You picked right up on the importance of how railroads can give that extra boost to the continuing trade arrows and those handy 1-turn advances +40 routes deliver. +22 is about the best I've ever seen before, too. A very nice piece of work!

How important to your result, was the role of Memphis? Have you had a chance to compare its effectiveness with a similar plan using just your helper cities?

If the continuing trade level you got in this game is repeatable in a timely way without a "Memphis", then building production and income is probably the next step. Once the +40 routes are in operation, your SSC is all set, isn't it? Once 1-turn advances are secured, is there a necessity to keep all subsequent trade between the SSC and its railroaded partner(s)? Bigger bonuses, if available elsewhere, may better help finance the spaceship. Is there enough time to try this?

I'm itching to try a game using my former approach with one big modification. In my games, my SSC was the last core city established and its growth and science improvements came quite late. I'd like to try another game, where I work on the SSC first and bring in overseas trade a bit later, just to see how it would compare to what you have done here.

I'm still looking for a good start though. In many tries, it seems to me that random starts rarely provide SSC sites with 2 gold and 2 other trade specials. In fact, random starts with just 1 usuable gold are pretty infrequent, too! I envy you and some others who have lucked into these golden sites, and wish I hadn't already used my previous best starts in other games. For early landings, I believe any start that has produced a great game should be available for all who wish to give it a try, as in the OCC comparison games. Enough whining, solo!

[Xin Yu]

For the road/railroad bonus, I suspect that only certain tiles are checked. I once got a bonus with a foreign city, only half way RR, the other half were road only. I got the same bonus after finishing RR all the way.

[samson]

Hey solo! Welcome back and thanks.

Memphis was the thing that pushed me over the top. Remember how we had all those discussions about how to squeeze out another 300 beakers to get 1 turn advances? Well, Memphis did it. Fact is, at one point I was getting 1 turn advances running at 60% science and piling up cash.

Local trade routes with railroads was my original plan until the Egyptians helped me out. Locals would have meant only +20 routes in SSC, but also in the helper cities. It may have worked out the same. I don't believe you can get +40 routes without a "Memphis" - it's the railroads that doubled the usual trade value. They took a long time to build, too. If the foreign city is farther away, you can't get the roads built soon enough.

Again, cash was a problem for me, but really only cost me 3 turns this game. I had Fusion Power in 300AD, so that's the earliest I could have launched. Of course, with enough caravans I could have built Darwin's and picked up another two turns.

Time is the killer in the early landing game. There aren't enough turns to build anything extraneous. Rome was size 8 and demanded one of my SSC commodities at the end. It would have paid a big bonus, but I counted the turns for a freight to arrive and it wouldn't have made it before my launch date -- a lot of rough terrain, no water route.

Building the SSC first is the way to go, I think. I understand your logic in building it last in your previous attempts -- to use the helper cities to top off the research bin. But you can get the same effect with a capitol SSC by flushing a few caravans down the pipe and pushing the SSC's beakers onto the next advance. Once you prime the pump, it works the way you want it to. Unless, of course, you mess up the beaker counts and have to prime it again.

I counted every damn beaker in that whole game and hit every tech at minimum cost and minimum time. I got a few techs from huts, some good early trades and a few late ones, too. [The Egyptians hung in there with all the trade from Memphis, another benefit of foreign trade.] The science machine hummed. But I still need to work on boosting my production in helper cities. And city placement, too -- my helpers were way too spread out.

I understand your frustration with getting good random starts, it's a pain.
The next good one I get, I'll let you have BEFORE I play it out. In this one, the Egyptians will always build Memphis in the same spot early on. It wouldn't be a challenge for you -- just a scripted game. Feel free to nag me about it, though. Might be a character flaw on my part, I dunno.

samson

[samson]

For the road/railroad bonus, I suspect that only certain tiles are checked. I once got a bonus with a foreign city, only half way RR, the other half were road only. I got the same bonus after finishing RR all the way.

Xin Yu,

No, the entire route needs to be in place to get the bonus. The reason the bonus didn't change when you finished the RR was because the route needed to get the RAIL bonus is not always the same as the one needed for the ROAD bonus. You never got the RR bonus, just the road. Not only that, but if both cities are yours you might need TWO routes in order to get the bonus in both places. Very weird stuff.

Furthermore, the bonus route is a dynamic entity. I had a Mongol diplomat squat on one of the tiles of my railroad to Memphis and the bonus disappeared. I expelled him and it came back.

samson