Arii Markus Space Race

[markusf]

A while ago me and arii played a few space race games. The rules where simple, no huts, no AI, no interaction with any other civ. ie no sending caravans or tech trading.. We pulled off some amazing stuff. Anyways i want to see what other players can come up with. I have attached one of the few saves i still have(its from 6 months ago) and the original scn file.

[markusf]

and a sample save from my archive. (i am romans arri is babs)

[samson]

Researching conscription in 1020AD at King level with a scenario tech tree on a map studded with gold, wine, whales and rivers is "amazing"? What am I missing?

You need 21 more techs to achieve Fusion Power and a 1230 launch date at King level (that would be 1460 at Deity.)
FireDragon landed in 16 AD at King level.

[markusf]

lets see you do it.

You can't trade with the AI
you can't build wonders
You don't have huts.


That means No SSC good luck Also notice i have close to 3000 science with means 1.5 turns techs /turn

[samson]

Do what? When did you reach AC? Did you ever try it on Deity?

No huts is no problem.

No AI means no trade, but also no interference, no wars, and no barbs I see.

No wonders. Ahh, that's what I was missing. You didn't mention that. Still,
there was an OCC fortnight game with no wonders on much less rewarding terrain.
Ribannah landed in 18-something, I think. Deity. One city.

I might give this a try on Deity.

[markusf]

no caravans to foriegn civs, goood luck. Without the SSC you are screwed. Just give it a try. might i remind you arri did hold the previous early landing record, so i am sure when he says this is very tough he knows what he is talking about . Trust me this isn't easy.

[markusf]

and another thing, its a medium map. Which means the tech rate is about 2 times slower then a small map.

[samson]

Why am I "screwed" any more than you were?

Yes, without wonders it would be slower going than as you originally presented it. Still, it's a trade-special loaded map with lots of grassland, rivers and offshore islands. No enemies allowed. Ideally suited to a peaceful perfectionist style of play. All elements of chance and interference have been eliminated. The tech path is wide open. There are no unknown factors or surprises to deal with. It's a good scenario for perfecting one's city development and expansion skills under nearly ideal circumstances.

The tech rate is not "2 times slower" on a medium map than it is on a small map. For the last 50 techs (the expensive ones), it costs 49,850 beakers on a medium map and 39,425 beakers on a small map, calculated at their minimum rates. And the cost ratio at the penalty rates slightly favors the medium map. Therefore, other things being equal, research time on a medium map is at most 25% slower than on a small map, not 100% slower as you suggest.

Why King level? And what dates did you guys land on AC?

[samson]

Also notice i have close to 3000 science with means 1.5 turns techs /turn

No, in 1020AD you have 2096 science at 70%. Your next advance costs 1998 beakers. If I drop your lux rate to 10%, go 80% science, and make adjustments to keeps cities out of disorder and tweak the trade, I can get 2396 beakers. But that's still not "1.5 techs/turn".

If I turn this 1020AD save into a scenario and bring it up on Deity level, the cost of your next tech jumps to 2106 beakers. At Deity a 20% lux rate is required to keep half of your cities from going into disorder. At 70% science you can still sqeeze out 1 tech/turn with 2112 beakers by shifting some workers to trade-rich squares. But next turn the cost is 2145 beakers and it gets a lot tougher to hang onto that 1 tech/turn rate.

Deity cuts into science two ways -- higher cost of advances and reduced ability to generate beakers. Play level is a bigger factor in research rate than map size.

[markusf]

I leave science at 90% luxeries at 10% sometimes i got to 10% taxes and 10lux and 80 science.

Rush buying caravans every turn and sending them into the big city at the center produces enough science to fill up the beakers needed for an advance. Strange how some times i get 500 cash to my own cities and other times 100 cash.

how are you finding the exact beaker count needed?

[samson]

In your 1020AD save, you can't set science to 90% and 10% luxuries. You have only 121 gold in your treasury, without 10% taxes you run at a deficit of 234gold. You'll start losing improvements.

In 1020AD you have only 1 freight, and it's still in production. You aren't going to be rush-buying anything this turn.

The beaker count for your current advance is found by temporarily turning all scientists to elvis and setting your science rate to 0%. The number of turns it tells you for the next advance is based on 1 beaker. That is the beaker cost of your next advance.

Matching the science output of your cities to the precise cost of each advance throughout the game is called "beaker counting" -- a micromanagement technique for optimizing research.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by markusf
lets see you do it.

Ooh... Challenging the record holder. I wonder how this will turn out.

[Rasputin]

pretty cool stuff , you guys reaaly msut spend so much time analysing this game in and out , is it still fun to paly with allthat micromanaging ?? Must be you keep playing it i guess !!!

[La Fayette]

samson
markusf wrote a few posts on this forum several months ago, where he explained that he was VERY proud to have designed a strategy growing a number of fat cities (specifically designed for King level).
I asked him gently to have a try at Deity level.
Apparently he didn't, and went on playing King against arii, who is a previous record holder at Deity level (but markusf beats him now and then and he's VERY proud of it).
Perhaps both of them turn back to Deity, with help of your nice explanations, and I shall be very happy.
Strong players welcome.

[markusf]

Same maps are easy to do it on...

The main purpose is to improve your game, and playing with the ai is just as boring as playing without them.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by markusf
lets see you do it.
You can't trade with the AI
you can't build wonders
You don't have huts.

Done. 706 AD. And this was not on a premade map. I saved a game at the beginning, made it scenario, eliminated huts, and eliminated the AI. It wasn't an interesting game. I just built near or on practically every trade special on the map. After I did that I mined some more trade specials. I am never going to do that again. It was so boring.

[DrFell]

Found this scenario sitting on my hard drive and decided to have a go at it. It looks easy, but I only managed to land 1521AD (even though I was 1/2 tech ahead of Markus in 1020AD ). It's a shame more people haven't had a go on this map, it's a good way of testing out different strategies without the AI interfering, and I'd like to see how well some of you early AC landers do on it - I found it suprisingly difficult.

[markusf]

ya i learned a lot here. I normally play on diety, but practicing on king on this map was a great way of testing strats. I found that i built way to many banks and stock exchanges. But in a real game you have to build up both

[DrFell]

Yeah I built too many unnecessary improvements too - should've sold improvements to raise cash for the ss parts. BTW when did you and Arii land? It'd be a great boost if I found out I landed before you

[markusf]

i don't remember we stopped when we first landed. Also this was sim turns, so we lost about 6 turns to reloads. My goal was to be able to replicate this in a normal. Sad thing is if you remove all the gold specials etc except for the first 2 cities. You will only land about 10 turns later. I was amazed to find that trade specials mean so little to the outcome... but i guess it makes sence.