Most underrated Wonder: Marco Polo

Hawkx9 · June 8, 2000, 20:05

I know it's probably been hashed and re-hashed, but I just wanted to mention that Marco Polo is much better than Great Library in SP games, especially on larger maps, IMHO. It's cheap and allows trade with every civ on the map. The AI seems to hold it in low regard, but who needs The Library when you can simply trade for what you want? Another huge plus is being able to trade for maps of unexplored territory, along with telling you when an opponents' city goes into disorder, who's allied with whom, and saving the lives' of your precious diplomats. I'm sure as heck not going to spend the time to send an expensive, weakling into the wilderness who's sure to be slaughtered/expelled. Well, I won't do it anymore, anyways.

Hasdrubal · June 8, 2000, 20:40

I'm sorry, but I must differ with you on this one.
MP costs 200 shields. Six diplo's cost only 180 shields. I'll grant you that one will probably lose a diplo or two when trying to establish an embassy, or that one may encounter problems reaching some Civs. But embassies established manually don't expire. I rarely, if ever, bother to build this wonder, it comes very last on my list of wonders.

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Ceterum censeo Romanem esse delendam.

shamrock · June 8, 2000, 21:01

quote:

Originally posted by Hawkx9 on 06-08-2000 08:05 PM
... but who needs The Library when you can simply trade for what you want?

Uh... because when you trade for something, you necessarily have to give up something in return. On higher levels, the AI cheats its way to a lot of techs, which can translate to a lot of free discoveries if you have the library. Remember that w/ the library, each time two other civs trade a tech that you don't have, it's yours! That happens a pretty fair number of times for me, especially down certain tech paths that I tend to avoid for a while (i.e. chivalry, leadership, etc.).

And with MGE, the value of Marco's is mitigated further by the fact that the AI is so unlikely to trade techs or maps with you.

So, in most SP (and definitely MP) games, I would take the Library.

Hawkx9 · June 8, 2000, 21:06

Yes, but how often are you beside every civ on the map, especially early? Personally, I'm much busier making settlers or caravans. I don't have the time to produce that many diplos, much less guard them on their journey to a distant land. I'd rather take the quick, easy route and erect Marco Polo's Embassy - instant embassy with every civ. It's a matter of style I suppose.

In MGE, which is what I have, it's not all that difficult to get them to trade maps. Simply give away a few techs until they "worship" you, then offer the exchange. As long as both of you have Map Making, it works every time. And yes, I do play at King. Diety may be another story altogether.

Peace.
[This message has been edited by Hawkx9 (edited June 08, 2000).]

Smash · June 8, 2000, 22:09

actually The Lighthouse is the most underrated wonder

Civ-wrecked · June 8, 2000, 22:31

I usually build MPE. I rarely get anything from the GL (3 techs at most) anyway. Even if MPE is not as good as GL, it is certainly more fun to know what's going on and what the other civs are researching.

As for building diplos and send them around the world on leaky triremes which tend to get attacked and sunk by every single ship they may run into, you have to account for the cost of building those triremes & their maintenance until you can find the 6 other civs and get the diplos to their cities as well. Besides, that takes time and they might not be friendly any more by the time you find them and establish the embassies.

Probably Smash is right that the Lighthouse is the most underrated. I never built it even though I often wish that the triremes are not too easily sunk or simply lost at sea. I almost never build triremes unless I get stuck on a small island and need to get out. Those leaky boats are expensive and the AI seems to pick on them as first attack target (second target would be settlers !!).

Aurelius · June 8, 2000, 22:40

After an uncontacted AI builds MPE does it ever contact the human? I've often wanted to trade techs with the MPE AI but it never seems to make contact with me. I don't care much for MPE except under certain conditions....like I'm stuck on an island or in a large map game.

Scouse Gits · June 8, 2000, 23:53

The MP AI never seems to use the wonder to its full advantage. This is sadly typical for other wonders. In a recent game, the Chinese put Copernicus's Observatory in a tiny desert town making three beakers!
When the AI builds a wonder it can sometimes have as many as 6 cities on the task. It is adding the combined total of all the shields from the various places. Is it possible that if the "last shield" to build the project comes from a tiny desert town, that will be the location of the wonder?

Back to Marco Polo. On a large world it is very useful. If the object is conquest, the human player will probably have started with a small city sleaze. It is very useful to aquire some decent cities as early as possible. My first target (assuming I have no other opposition on the home continent) is a perfectionist civ. The Babylonians are typical. They build great cities, which are usually under-defended. Babylon, Ur and Nineveh are usually bursting with goodies. So - I want to meet these guys! The choice is either send out diplos in caravels and wait a few centuries - or send an e-mail via Marco. I know which way I prefer.

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SG (2)

vik · June 9, 2000, 07:31

Smash beat me to it. I was going to suggest that the lighthouse is the most under-rated.

There was a good explanation awhile back on just how powerful this wonder can be.

Vet triremes that will kill all other ship and can go anywhere on the map and get there faster than any other ship. Sounds pretty good, and when you fill them with diplomats, you can always knock of some cities very cheaply and establish those early footholds.

Steve Clark · June 9, 2000, 10:08

I just don't think Marco Polo is all that useful, even in SP on large maps. Here's why. More times than not, you will quickly get the lead on techs, especially in developing the SSC in your capital. The GL helps in filling in some gaps, but I really don't care to know what others have. If you look under the Science Advisor, a good number of techs will be in white, indicating at least one civ that does not have those techs. You know, if you do a good job of exploring, you'll run into others civ units, giving you the opportunity to trade. You know they will offer an earlier tech for one of your more recent ones. If they don't trade or you reject, no big deal, you just keep on racing up the tree anyway.

When I start a conquest of a civ in mid to late game, I'll just use ONE diplomat to start an embassy just to see how many cities I'll be clobbering. Until that time, there is no need for an embassy.

Most underrated wonder, imo? With MGE - Great Wall, not because of the city walls but because all civs must behave in respect to you regardless of their attitudes. Great for buying time in the early game.

Sten Sture · June 9, 2000, 10:28

Steve - I think the white techs listed in yourscience adv menu are the techs that you got first (with ties included. IIRC the Mac version is different, but I can't remember how.
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MPE is fine with me, but I won't build the GL unless you put a gun to my head. Getting a couple of techs you intentionally avoided bashes your streamline toward the techs you really want. I HATE researching Monarchy as my 53rd technology. (okay a little exagerated there)

Maybe I would use the GL in combo with Fundy after the SoL if I had the military techs I wanted already - but other than that, I want to control my tech destiny.

MPE is an excellent source of knowledge and can be built very quickly with four caravans soon after getting trade - those caravans might be better used for real trading but at least the argument is close.

The Lighthouse is, too, me the most underrated - extra mobility early; vet triremes are invulnerable and everybody has heard of the vet ironclad advantages.

jpk · June 9, 2000, 11:16

I like Marco Polo's Embassies. When you play on a large map it can be hard to find other civilizations. Even when they build a wonder so one can find their general location it can be hard to actually get a trieme and diplomat to that location.

When Marco Polo expires the cost of diplomats or spies to establish diplomatic relations is negligible. Spies are reusable.

I almost never build the Lighthouse. I tend to let my triemes hug the shore so that I can explore as I go. Maybe I'm making a mistake.

War4ever · June 9, 2000, 13:05

Hey dont knock the Tower of Power

Aurelius · June 9, 2000, 14:39

Yeah Steve, there is even an argument for Eiffel tower under certain circumstances. If you're in a close game you might want to conquest for it ONLY (never build it!) It will bring one's reputation up from Atrocious to questionable or dishonorable. Thus, it will allow one to break a few more treaties before the AI breaks them (ie you get initiative)--the only wonder that's worth less then the paper treaties are written on....

Steve Clark · June 10, 2000, 00:05

Well, when it comes down to it, there are no absolutes in Civ2. Each game and each turn demands a certain level of strategic decision making. When you have finished a unit or improvement or wonder, you click on the Build button and there you have to decide what to start building next. Just because one does not routinely build MPE, there may be circumstances where it would makes sense. Thinking strategically requires adjustments in tactics. For example, if you are getting harrassed early on, the Great Wall may help; or if really behind in techs, Great Library; or if you are on an island, then Lighthouse and/or Magellan; or if you have trouble making contact with other civs, then Marco Polo. Each of these (and more) may not be typically built for some civers, but there will be situations where any one of these will be the right thing to do. Now the Eiffel Tower is different story.

Makeo · June 10, 2000, 21:35

MPE is a very important wonder. I try and build it in every game i play. Especially in MP games. Its very important to know what your enemies are doing and me having MPE has allowed me to get other wonders such as J.S's and Michs's that i may not have otherwise got. Ie rush building them when i see my enemies about to discover the relevent techs.

June 10, 2000, 23:08

Gread Library is always better than Marco Polo. The most underrated is oracle, really good in the early game if your a fast grower.

Makeo · June 11, 2000, 05:14

I disagree. The library is a reactionary wonder. You have no control at all. Your tech progress is actually slowed by having this wonder. MPE allows you to trade for only the techs you need.
I also disagree in regard to the Oracle. Theology is discovered so quickly leaving the Oracle worthless virtually before being of any use.

Scouse Gits · June 11, 2000, 06:08

The Oracle is just above the Tower, at the wrong end of the wonder list. Theology can fall out of a hut during the BC years.
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SG (2)

geofelt · June 11, 2000, 20:23

I like them both. Your game is hampered if you have neither. A good reason for MP is to find civs from which to demand tribute. It will pay for itself many times over. It keeps me from asking if they have no gold, or are hostile.
If you get ahead in science, the AI will not trade with you, and the library helps.

KhanMan · June 11, 2000, 23:33

I agree that MPE is underrated, mainly because I tend to use it to get everyone's maps in the mid-game.

GL is a wonder I tend to only get to prevent other civs from building it: if it's mp, I'd argue it's the best wonder for allied games, in sp I occasionally want to build up an ally (normally to get someone to harass an oversees enemy), and GL in enemy hands tends to be a pain.

However, I'm surprized to hear people touting the virutes of The Lighthouse:

1. It does NOT effect your vet/non-vet ship status (it merely increases non-trimere movement points).

2. It's been shown in past threads that it occasionally fails.

and, IMHO the biggest factor,
3. It expires with Magnetism.

Personally, if I'm going to plan major naval attacks, and try to control the seas, I at least want frigates and iron-clads. By that time, Lighthouse has expired, and so all it gives you is some faster trimeres and caravels-IMHO, next to worthless, compared to other ancient wonders.

I mean, would you rather have Lighthouse, Colossus, or Hanging Gardens? I seriously doubt most of you will pick Lighthouse.

-KhanMan

KaiserIsak · June 12, 2000, 09:02

I just want to say that GL is the most over rated SP wonder of all.
I rarely earn a single tech from this wonder. I would rather build Leonardos, Michelangelos, Pyramids, Adam Smiths and sometimes King Richards.

Adam Smith · June 12, 2000, 09:10

I dont know if MPE is the most underrated wonder, but it sure can be useful if you know how to use it, and there are a lot of things you can do with MPE that you cant do with GL. Some of these have already been mentioned, some have not, and a lot of them dont apply in multiplaying.
1. MPE is proactive, GL is reactive. With MPE you can trade for the techs you want, not just settle for the techs somebody else gives you.
2. MPE is quicker. You only need to have one civ with the tech you want, not two as with GL.
3. You can use MPE to select the specific techs you want to research, and can also help select what the AI researches. Cant do either of these with GL.
4. MPE lets you get maps, which means you can go trading or conquering that much quicker. Cant do either of these with GL either.
5. And did I mention tribute? Its always nice to have those extra $$$ flowing in, especially from those poor saps somewhere over the horizon who you havent even met yet.

Scouse Gits · June 12, 2000, 09:17

Hey KM may I have the temerity to disagree - but the Lighthouse makes any new naval vessels have Veteran Status - or my copy of Civ has a bug - 'cos it works for me!

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

Sten Sture · June 12, 2000, 10:53

SG - does that include Ironclads?? Oh well, who needs a giant fleet of vet ironclads early in the game anyway...

Ming · June 13, 2000, 09:17

The light house is still under rated!
Vet trimeres early in the game give you total command of the sea. The ability to create vet ships that won't sink can be a significant advantage.

Now granted, unless I start on an island, I never go into a game thinking "OH BOY, I'm going for the lighthouse"... but, if I get screwed out of the other wonders, building an early strategy out of having the lighthouse isn't too tough. The trick is to REALLY use it if you have it!

KhanMan · June 15, 2000, 06:55

I'll admit, I goofed on the vet thing.

Still, basing a strategy around a wonder that can go obsolete around 2500 BC? Yes, if you end up island-hopping, it'll help, and even aid your trading, but it expires with Magnetism, how deadly can that be?

-KhanMan

Ming · June 15, 2000, 09:18

quote:

Originally posted by KhanMan on 06-15-2000 06:55 AM
Still, basing a strategy around a wonder that can go obsolete around 2500 BC? Yes, if you end up island-hopping, it'll help, and even aid your trading, but it expires with Magnetism, how deadly can that be?

I guess the group I play with is different than yours... I can't ever remember Magnetism be discovered in 2500 BC

Yes, it does expire... but so do other wonders. You get a window of opportunity to use it... and if you build it, you better have a plan. I'll build tons of vet ships and send them out to kill anything else on the sea. Nothing better than nailing other civs caravan carriers. They are also great for delivering diplo's to opponent cities. It is rare that a non vet ship will be able to sink you as you approach. You can steal a bunch of sciences that way, and get those embassies set up quickly...

Again, it isn't a high priority of mine, but when the situation dictates it, it can be very powerful when used right

jpk · June 16, 2000, 00:43

Perhaps some of the differences of opinion are due to differences in the maps people use. Small worlds tend to have one continent. That makes it a lot easie to run into all the civilizations. Large multicontinent worlds can easily have 50 squares between civilizations. Recalling the wierd shape of continents, it can be very difficult to figure out an efficient route of that length.