Another early AC landing

[solo]

samson,

Sure, I agree there is more potential in my SSC by irrigating the forest and transforming two hills, but your small map SSC did not require any major terrain changes, and did its job while staying at 16 citizens. My point was that equivalent efficiency is probably not available in medium map games, unless the SSC site is closer to ideal. Any extra development work takes time and resources away from something else.

The above is my strong impression, but maybe I should try a small map game first, before jumping to any conclusions. I will borrow your 356 start. Thanks for providing it.

solo

[samson]

Solo,

Yeah, a small map is hard to beat for early landing. Still, I think a pre-500AD landing is possible on a medium map with a lot of luck.

With road/rail bonuses to a foreign city, every extra arrow a city squeezes out is important to try and get the next quantum bump in its trade routes. An arrow that kicks those 3 routes up by +3 each, means 60 beakers more science.

Oh, and have fun on that map. Some good trade opportunities should develop for you.

[solo]

yes, a pre-500 landing on a medium map seems likely with a great start and SSC site.

I am having fun with the small map game, but it took me awhile to find the double gold, so I got a late start with my SSC (3200 BC) and will probably not challenge your result. It is still only size 7 by 1000 BC. But the road to Ulundi is done and 2 routes finished to it from my SSC. I'm hoping its fourth corner (grassland) will turn into silk after mining, because I noticed the other side of the gold is also a candidate, but without any ships, yet, I can't see that 4th corner.

Having the Zulus close by was stroke of good luck, but Zimbabwe was kind of in my way, so when the Zulus built Ulundi 2 squares due north of my SSC, I had a little revolution just before an oedo year, and captured Zimbabwe looting a tech and some gold. Saved me the trouble of making another settler to found the next helper city that I wanted, and I also was able to collect some tribute before returning to Republic. This was so much fun, that when the Zulus built their next city northeast of Zimbabwe, I bribed that one away just before another oedo year, repeating the whole process again! Now I have 8 cities with 2 having African names!

I am doing science first and have built Copernicus as the first wonder, but did acquire some unwanted techs, and still need to reasearch and make a university. I'm still having problems raising cash, so have finished marketplace and bank first. I think I'll zip to railroad as soon as I'm able, to boost that bonus, as the new road has made a big difference already. Not so many nomads this game, and no advanced tribes, so I've had to build some settlers, and this slowed me down, however, most of my helpers are now size 3, and pumping out caravans at 5 shields/turn.

Have not found the last civ yet. Thank goodness it isn't purple.

Did you build Shakespeare's in your game? I may go for that.

[samson]

Solo,

Sounds like you're pretty much on the track I was. By 1000BC, my SSC was size7 with COPE's, a library and a university; built the Colossus on the next turn. I had 3 trade routes and a road to my trading partner. But I had eliminated the Zulus on first contact, before building my first city, and they reincarnated as the Babylonians a few squares away. So my rail/road route was into Babylon. I like how you took those cities away from the Zulus though. A neat trick.

No, I never built ST.

Where is your SSC: (12,20) or (14,24)?
How many techs do you have at 1000BC?


I've been working out a new tech path for early landing.
I think I can knock several turns off my game with it.
Now, I'm waiting for another good start to try it out.

[Scouse Gits]

samson & solo - have you any record landing dates for a large map?

I have enjoyed reading your combined wisdom over the past few weeks whilst you have both torn up the record books! A list of your early research goals after Monarchy would be interesting to study.

------------

SG(2)

[samson]

SG,

I have made no attempt at an early landing on a large map yet.
On a medium map, Solo's 776 game (with its rehoming asterisk) is still the earliest.

My early tech path, up to now, has been:

Monarchy
Writing
Republic
Trade
Astronomy
University
Construction
Bridge Building
Democracy

Then it's onto Railroad (for the rail trade bonus), Corporation (for freights) and Automobile (for Superhighways). Somewhere in there I'll pick up Gravity and build the INU. I've pretty much given up on Shakespeare's Theatre (at least for the small map) and Darwin's. But I'm tinkering with this at the moment. Next game may be different.

[solo]

SG,

My tech path is pretty much the same as samson's, but each game is different, with different starting techs and situations, so I make adjustments accordingly. I would like to try a game on a large map after my small map game, just to see how much it will differ from a medium map game. I believe research costs are the same on medium and large.

samson,

My SSC is at 12,20, which is too bad, as I would have preferred the other which I discovered later on, since it also has two silk and allows a harbor for more population. At 1000 BC, I only had 24 techs (including useless polytheism), which is now behind your pace in the 396 game. Since then I've completed INU, Colossus, a university and have added ST and Leonardo's, too, and am now at 60 AD with 1-turn advances since 100 BC. Tech total is now 45 and I'm hoping to keep this up until Automobile, where they will be guaranteed. My SSC has 17 citizens and with ST, I've been able to set science at 100% since Democracy, which I got to kind of late in 125 BC. I'll be amazed if you find another start as close to the ideal as this one. I'm almost convinced that small map is the best way for record attempts. You can't beat that lower tech cost, because on bigger maps you pay for the premium over and over. Railroads were the key to this, though. Good luck in your next game and with the new tech path idea.

[samson]

Solo,

Research cost is higher on large maps. The progression for the +20 tech minimum cost multiplier is:

small - 19X; medium - 24X; large - 30X.

So a large map is going to be a lot slower. Even the SSC rail bonus with Superhighways probably won't be enough to catch 1 tech/turns for long.

Yeah, that start is pretty special. Not just one, but two possible SSC sites, a good river chain, close neighbors, and offshore trade. Only problem was the Zulus were already there, but you solved that better than I did, I think. Funny thing is, I don't know how long that start has been sitting in my try-this-one-later directory. The immediate terrain didn't look too promising and with only 3 starting techs I kept passing it by to try others. You never know.

And you're right, I may not get another one like this for a long while. Might have to replay this game to try out my tech path refinements.

[solo]

samson,

Well, looks like with Apollo in 500 AD I will be on the wrong side of that date for a landing. The 1 tech per turn run started too late for me, though I managed 2 techs per turn twice, and 3 techs per turn once. The AI were no help at all in this game, as I can usually count on them to research Pottery, Wheel, Feudalism, Conscription, Chivalry and a few others, but NOT this game! Not many techs from huts either, if I recall correctly.

Still, my best Apollo date yet, and a landing should come in the 600's, though I'm a little short on freights and cash. Late game trade brought some 2 tech turns, but those size-3 cities just don't produce that much gold and beakers. I wish my SSC had produced more commodities, later, but it didn't.

I may try this one again, too, as I got a few new ideas while playing it your science-first style. You've got that method down pretty good, and it will take me awhile to challenge your landings in the 300's. They just ARE really impressive! Nice going, again!

Which SSC site did you use for your game? The one I didn't use looked much better to me, after all of it was revealed.

[samson]

3 techs in one turn? How the heck did you manage that?
I can see one from freights and one from the SSC, but where do you get the 3rd one from?

I used the same SSC site as you did. It's really the only option without foreknowledge of what the other site's 4th special is. And with more rivers, I think it's the best one anyway.

Heh, 356AD is pretty good, isn't it? Just 109 turns from first city founded (3650BC) until spaceship launched (320AD). Not much fat to trim off that one.

[solo]

Darwin's Voyage for the first two, and my city's science for the third. I wanted at least Apollo by 500 AD, so I blew a way some freights on DV to get Rocketry, Space Flight and Plastics in 480.

As far as I could see, the SSC was a toss-up, and I had to pick one before getting that corner of 12,20 mined or before making a ship to see that silk off the other. I only had one settler in the area and 12,20 was closest and even without another silk, I knew it would be good. In retrospect, I prefer the other, because with Shakespeare's and a harbor, I could have zipped the size up into the 20's, but with peak trade at 222 arrows and peak science at 1513 beakers 12,20 was good enough. Too many hills in 12,20, though, and no port for an early ship.

Some new lessons learned from this game:

1) Look for helper locations providing fast early growth (wheat, fish, bananas or a few grass) AND good shield potential (shield specials or forests). In previous games I used helpers with good growth and trade, but neglected shields, because income from trade was used to rush new caravans. This old policy lingered.

2) Get that SSC going and growing quicker. Without a food special, I should have tried to irrigate earlier than I did, as it seemed to take forever to get to size 3.

3) Be stingier with tech gifts to the AI early on, so they can learn more on their own. Trade only for essential techs early.

4) Get to Democracy ASAP in order to get 1 turn advances earlier.

5) Tribute is better if you have a less than spotless reputation, but gifts are worse. With only 1 ally likely per game, it pays to do something nasty.

6) Because of 5) above, find that last civ and his pile of gold much sooner.

7) Look for a better way to manage early Republic and the growth of the SSC to size 7, WITHOUT slowing down tech acquisition. There are many problems with early Republic:

a) Lack of income from tribute (often 10% tax is needed to keep out of the red)
b) The need for early temples in helpers, makes it harder to pump out early caravans and other units for exploration and development.
c) More luxuries reduce income and/or science.
d) Stalled terrain improvements due to lack of settlers. (Each needs 2 food and 1 shield, not easy to provide with itty-bitty cities)
e) There is a secret game option, which only samson has discovered, that totally eliminates problems a), b), c) and d) above simultaneously!

8) Try to be happy with Apollo by 500 AD!

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by solo
2) Get that SSC going and growing quicker. Without a food special, I should have tried to irrigate earlier than I did, as it seemed to take forever to get to size 3.

Do you ever use the "free settler" from the capital, which can be rushed when an early hut gives gold? Then at size two "b" the extra guy back into the city for a jump to size 3.

----------

SG(2)

[samson]

SG,

The "free settler" trick only works if you have just one city. If you found cities with both of your starting settlers (as we have been doing to try for Nomads) it doesn't work.

Solo,

You built 3 wonders that I didn't try for: DV, ST, and Leo's. That's a total of 22 freights; about twice the number I delivered to offshore cities. I think aggressive trade might have benefitted you more in this game than those wonders.

1) The first 2 or 3 helper cities should be trade special centered, even sharing with the SSC. This allows the SSC to "take a break" from working its gold and go for growth. But the later helpers, I agree, should be production oriented.

2) The SSC can switch to working grassland if helpers take up the gold in early turns. What I try for is to get the SSC to size3 by the time I get Republic so I can swing right into WeLove! and march it up to size6. Then a quick caravan route and I've got a stable size7.

3) Absolutely. Hold off tech trading and gifting for as long as possible. You want Iron Working, not WC. Seafaring, not Pots and Maps. Currency instead of Bronze Working. You don't need BW until you are ready to build Colossus.

4) Right. You need to be in Demo before acquired tech #20.

7) Yes, Early Republic is tough. Maybe it would be better to spent a longer time in Monarchy, laying down more cities quicker, and celebrating in the SSC to get the extra trade. Or maybe use E.R. to get the SSC up to size7, then switch back to Monarchy for awhile. I'm not sure though, this needs testing.

7a) I always run at a deficit and never set taxes above 0% unless I've got move arrows than I can use. I live hand-to-mouth with gifts, huts, and caravan cash.

7b) A size2 helper, working gold, is content in Republic at 20% lux without a temple and slowly grows to 3.

7d) True. I'll irrigate one or two SSC squares, then start building bridges and the road/rail trade bonus route. And that's all I get done usually. The helpers never get their terrain improved.

7e) Haha. I wish.

You should replay this one, Solo. Forget those extra Wonders and haul those caravans out to Carthage with your agressive trade style. I bet you cut 10 turns off your time.

[solo]

samson,

SG might have the right idea here, for a start where the settlers are next to gold. This is the quickest way to size 3, nets a free settler and research is fast, too. As soon as that free settler appears, quick, plop down two new cities and you're off to a great start. This works so well it has been banned from OCC comparison games, though.

1) yes, the early overlapping helpers are the exception, and can do the science while the SSC grows. But I learned too late, that without much income, helpers need more shields to pump out more caravans. In trade oriented games, 1 shield per helper was enough to make me happy, as caravans were rush-built one line per turn.

2) I needed 20% luxuries to keep the SSC happy at size 7, but paying for temples forced me to tax at 10% just to keep from running out of gold, and this lowered science to 70%. I guess you managed more income.

3+4) My big mistake was acquiring too many unneeded techs early, delaying the push to Democracy. I concur here 100%.

7) Good points, but still, that part of the game needs some better ideas.

I think I will replay this one trying out some new ideas. Then when the next comparable start is available, I'll know what to do. I have some ideas for aggressive trade and early Republic, but in this game I was not too impressed with payoffs from Carthaginian cities for helper caravans, however, I discovered that later SSC caravans did very well, as long as the first 3 went to the railroad city to secure that bonus. With better planning, I agree that more benefit can come from trade than from early wonders, but I was trying out science-first for the first time, and need more experience with this method. No doubt in my mind though, that small map is easiest. Even the game manual says to use a small map if you want a quick game. Duhh! That's what we want, isn't, a quick game?

[mad max]

Hi guys, I read through your threads and ended up in total disbelieve. I thought this is not possible at all. Than I tried it myself and after some time got to AC at 1117 using some of your tricks which is still much worse than yours. I still don't know and understand (may be because of my english) how you do this. But there is one thing I do which is quiet efficient and which could be interesting for you to try .
I usually use a medium seize map, archipel, much water, wet, hot, 3 billion years old. I want that most of the AI have their own islands to get the continent trade bonus and may be one or two AI to be one my island two pay tribut and I want them to have no contact to each other. I only discover my own Island and that's it. I research for monarchy and trade and stop research after this for a couple of turns to get more money and invest it in caravans to build Marco Polo's embassy as soon as possible. The idea is this: If you are on an island it's difficult to find AI and it is nearly impossible to get their money. So I have to make money by myself and build up an SSC. During this period I don' t get many new techs by research. I only get the techs the AI develop and give to me. So I have to pay attention on what the AI are searching for and give them the tech they are developing if it allready is discovered, and not much more. As my own research is minimized it is not important how many techs I have. But it is important how many techs the AI have. To optimize the AI research I try to give them monarchy/republic, writing and later on construction if they need this. In the first contact I try to get nearly all techs and all maps. Sometimes I do this in two steps. I first try to get the techs from those AI who have to chance their research goal for me. Then we exchange quiet a lot of techs and they get some gifts. I give/exchange a minimum of 3 techs with them before I ask for their maps. After this they won't find a new tech in the next turns and it is not important what they are searching for, but the other AI who were not contacted by me will find their techs quicker. After they get the new tech I contact them and get all their techs and maps like I did before. Anyway after some turns I try to get all techs from the AI and give all AI gifts until they research something I don't have. But I still try to keep some techs. I need up to four techs to get one tech from an AI. 1 Tribut, 2 gifts and 1 tribute to exchange an I allways have a diplomat to get the techs they don't give peacefully. It's not a problem to let them declair war before my diplomat starts his work if they are on an other islands.
During this period of time I build up my SSC and deliver caravans. I prefer to research by delivering caravans than to startl resarch by tax to early again. To make this more efficient it is also important to give the AI monarchy quiet early. Their cities will grow quicker and this has an impact to your trade. To maximize my tradebonus I first build hanging gardens and the colossus in the SSC and use rehoming caravans. Until now I still build pyramids and deliver caravans from all cities. But now I will use only rehoming because of you and don't try to build up more than may be two cities and connect them with railroads and traderouts as you do. After this my strategy is worse and not worth to be mentioned. But may be this trick is useful for you.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Mad Max, 1117 is nothing to call bad! Sure, Samson and Solo are a giant step ahead, but most civers are happy to beat 1900!

I still need to try this. For all, a basic question - how much of your production is rushbuilding? With production of 5 shields, do you rush build an increment of 10 each turn, or rush build up to 10 less than completion each turn? I imagine the early game (before economy gets strong) must be the former.

[samson]

Max,

As Marquis says, 1117 is an outstanding date on a medium map.

To maximize my tradebonus I first build hanging gardens and the colossus in the SSC and use rehoming caravans. Until now I still build pyramids and deliver caravans from all cities. But now I will use only rehoming because of you

This must be a language problem. We DO NOT use rehoming caravans since it is considered a cheat by many.

Your strategy, a combination of aggressive overseas trading and AI tech farming, is interesting. Both of those techniques have been discussed in our early landing strategy threads, but neither have been given the exclusive emphasis that you give them. Solo usually relies more on trade than I do, but WITHOUT rehoming caravans it is difficult to base your research entirely on freight-bonuses. So far anyway, a purer research focused approach appears to have the edge.

The multiplexed research of AI tech farming would seem, in theory, to provide a faster method of obtaining techs than a single pathed approach. But in practice, the 6X science multiplier of a high trade SSC, can beat all the AI combined. Of course, getting a few key techs from the AI at the right time can make or break an early landing attempt. But the cost of MPE or 6 diplos in the early game is too high -- unless that is the focal point of your strategy.

I may sound sceptical of your approach, but that does not mean I'm not grateful to you for sharing it. I love the outside-the-box thinking behind it and may give it a try myself.

Early landing on Deity level is not easy. If it was, these conversations wouldn't be taking place. It requires an excellent start, good luck, and a focused implementation of a chosen strategy. Every arrow, every beaker, every shield on every turn must move you towards your goal.

[samson]

For all, a basic question - how much of your production is rushbuilding? With production of 5 shields, do you rush build an increment of 10 each turn, or rush build up to 10 less than completion each turn? I imagine the early game (before economy gets strong) must be the former.

My economy never gets strong. But I rush-build as much as I can.

[Jaguar]

max, I am impressed. My best is 1376, and I think that is one of the better records on this site. Samson is still beating me by 1000 years!

[solo]

Mad Max,

That date is excellent! It is very close to arii's 1075, which was considered unbeatable for a very long time, so nice going!

samson,

I tried it again using your small map, and think I got the hang of it this time, arriving in 336 AD. My first wonder was Copernicus, but after that I decided to grow my SSC first, before adding more science to it, and this worked very well, since the 12,24 site permitted maximum growth very quickly.

Building Shakespeare’s Theater as the next wonder worked very well. It permitted unlimited growth without the need of a colosseum, marketplace, bank, etc. and allowed 0% luxuries for more income and/or 100% science in Democracy for turns that needed it. It also permitted early trade by supporting a trireme after Democracy in 925 BC.

Using a harbor with 12,24 was particularly effective. At only 60 shields, a harbor was cheap and each ocean worker produces as much science as a roaded grassland having superhighways! The extra food a harbor provides sustains we love growth rates, too! The harbor was built in 800 BC, permitting size 12 by 750 BC. Next time I find a good ocean SSC, I’m heading to Seafaring pronto in order to build one even earlier. Much quicker and cheaper than road building, irrigation and superhighways. This may work very well with ST, as the first wonder, since ocean squares produce a lot of free trade arrows.

Focusing on early growth delayed science a bit, but even with this detour, Isaac Newton’s was completed by 425 BC, and 1-turn advances were easily sustained for the rest of the game.

Vigorous trade provided several opportunities for 2 advances per turn and provided substantial income just when it was needed the most. I found myself delaying the research of Flight and Space Flight (each cuts trade payoffs by 1/3, I believe) to get more out of the limited trading time that was available. What’s the use of getting to Space Flight 5 turns earlier without the cash and extra freights that profitable trade helps provide for building a spaceship? In fact, THIS, more than research speed, seems to be the limiting factor, preventing pre-AD landings so far. Even with excellent, albeit limited, trade during this game, I could not get a rocket ready until 300 BC, 5 turns after learning Space Flight in 200 BC.

As always, the road and railroad bonuses to nearby Zimbabwe and reduced research costs with a small map, make it the way to go for the earliest landings.

I will type up a log and post it if you are interested in more detail.

[samson]

Solo,

Nice going. I assume your 336 BC landing date is a typo. 336AD, right? You can't land pre-AD in a standard rules game.

Still, you haven't convinced me of the value of ST in this game. I had my SSC up to size12 by 700BC without ST, only needed a colosseum. 3 road-bonus trade routes made a marketplace unneccesary. 100% science in this game was never needed. And a trireme is easily supported from a small port city with a temple.

As for the SSC sites, they are pretty much equal. Max trade for 12,20 at size 14 is 199 arrows. Max trade for 14,24 at size 15 is 198 arrows. One has more ocean, the other more rivers. Both require irrigation to support usage of all four specials. The Zimbabwe road is shorter from 12,20 and consists of two bridges that need building anyway. The road from 14,24 goes over forest, mountain, and hill. The 4th special at 12,20 is hidden, the one at 14,24 is offshore. A toss up.

I think the improvement in your landing date is largely due to map familiarity, knowing where those Carthaginians are makes a huge difference in trade opportunities.

As for research vs. production as the limiting factor: it's clearly research speed in any game without the opportunity for a foreign city road/rail bonus from the SSC. With that bonus, it's a more even balance. Had you built a colosseum instead of ST you would, perhaps, have had 4 more caravans delivered for cash or available for SS parts and might have been able to launch a turn or two earlier. Hard to say.

[solo]

samson,

336 BC was a typo, of course, and has been corrected. It is hard not to take advantage of map pre-knowledge in a replay, but I did go out and explore first with a trireme, "discovering" where the Carthaginians were before returning later with cargos to trade with. Though replays don't "count" and can't be compared to your 356 result attained without map pre-knowledge, they are useful for trying out and comparing the success of different ideas. I hope you did not get the wrong impression that the unavoidable coincidence of my landing a turn earlier in a replay was in any way an attempt to "beat" your 356 date. I'm more interested in participating in finding the best strategy than in being the one who sets the record.

solo

p.s. I still stick with ST over colosseum, as my SSC grew to size 20 and provided extra income through extra taxes, especially after adding economic improvements later when I could set science down a few notches. I reached 231 trade arrows with my SSC at size 18.

[samson]

Solo,

It's interesting that your replay came out so close to my original landing date, as did Ribannah's playing of your medium map start. Perhaps, every start has its own earliest possible date based on pre-existing factors and the best play can only converge on that limit whatever strategy is employed. Breakthroughs, like the railroad bonus effect, are necessary to push that limit to an earlier date.

[solo]

samson,

I agree that each start probably does have a built-in limit. In my replay, I thought I started to really get the hang of playing early Republic about as well as you do it, but must admit that pre-knowledge of the SSC site had me reserving that second starting settler to "find" it. Even so, it was founded a turn after yours, so that particular bit of knowledge just kept me even.

During replays, I try to play them as if I did not know the map, to obtain a valid comparison of different ideas under the same circumstances, but this is HARD to do faithfully. One thing I resisted in this game was heading straight for the purple civ to gain a research edge. If anything, I was a bit later meeting them than in the first game. In the first game, I sacrificed all for ealry science to gain experience with that method, but learned that this is may not be the best way to proceed. I believe that early exploration by sea should not be forsaken. Besides "finding" the Carthaginians earlier, I found some more helpful huts, one with an advanced tribe on that small island to the east of Carthage. I also consider the use of a harbor in this game to be a minor breakthrough of sorts. I believe those added arrows EARLIER in the game were what gave me a chance to land in the 300's. All things considered, I believe that a replay allowed me to land four or five turns earlier than a first try using the same ideas.

One thing I did try later was replaying from the point where I was about to research Sanitation. I had the idea that maybe size 12 with a railroad would be enough, and that one more tech could be skipped and less celebration would be required. This "shoestring" approach would appeal to you, I bet! Anyways,
I skipped Sanitation and was just barely able to keep up the tech per turn pace with size 12, but I did not have enough to build a spaceship in time to make this idea pay off. It may be worth trying again in the future.

I am a bit worried that another major breakthrough is needed to do much better, because it is hard to improve upon the start you found for this game! Both SSC sites were so good, it's not worth quibbling over which one was superior. I'm hoping Ribbanah will give this start a try too, and maybe find that missing element needed to push landing dates even lower.

A minor point about triremes under Democracy. A temple would work, I guess, if you meant using a trireme from a size one city. With a size 3 city, a temple AND about 60-70% luxuries are needed to keep those stupid rowers happy.

solo

p.s. what about your new tech path idea? Any news to report?