MP vs SP

Ming · June 8, 2000, 08:13

How does your science path vary in MP games vs Standard Play. In standard play, you can pretty much do what you want because you can usually stay ahead of the AI. But in MP, the wonder's hunt is key, and you aren't going to get most of them like you do against AI.

How does it vary for you?

War4ever · June 8, 2000, 08:43

i think for me, certain wonders are key and like every game there is no exact science to figuring out which ones your going to get.

Early in my MP days i loved the gardens, but typicaly now i don't build them fast enough and am often beaten to it...... so i adapted a better strat.

The wall is something i never built in SP but will do so if i can't get Sun Tzus..... wall expires too early but it allows you to crank out cities like the gardens does.

great library is nice for larger MP games...
if you play MDL rules then oracle is as good as any of the happy wonders which are always nice to have or atleast one anyways

I have learned not to rely on those so much as making a huge effort for Adam Smiths which for me is as close to a must as possible.
Leos and SOL cannot be underestimated either especially if you need the upgrades to protect yourself or like an early fundy or commie govt
Of course late in the game i like Manhattan which i will always build if possible

As Ming stated, in SP you can build all or none and still win..... in MP you need to always rotate your playing style no matter how good you are as the usual wonders are not always so usual

Tom DeMille · June 8, 2000, 08:46

Well, I don't play multiplayer, but I imagine one key difference is you don't gift all your science to your human opponents to get a worshipful status.

I'd be interested in knowing which techs people won't trade away (or won't trade away until they build the associated wonder).

Ming · June 8, 2000, 08:58

In MP, you almost never give a science to somebody if you are building the wonder.
Last time somebody gave me a science like that, I built the wonder on the next turn.
(He wasn't very happy with me)

I may give an ally one if I know somebody might beat me to building it. That way, there is a hope that the wonder will be "kept in the family"

I agree with War4ever... Unlike in SP, where I have a standard path I follow, the path I take in MP is totally dependent on what's happening in the game. There is far more variety.

War4ever · June 8, 2000, 09:12

i agree with Ming, the only time i usually gift tech is either after i have built the wonder, or if i want to "keep it in the family" which is another great strategy. The thing that makes MP such a better game than SP is the variety. Everyone knows how to win, what path to take etc.... so strategy becomes all important as does knowing your position in the game. Therefore its nearly impossible to say your going to take a certain route. We all have our favorite paths but reality dictates that we walk those paths far less frequently than we would like

DaveV · June 8, 2000, 09:42

Almost all of my MP experience has been in duels. In those games, you face a kind of balancing act, reacting to your opponent's moves while trying to maintain your own direction. Since you're the only possible target for your opponent, Sun Tzu is like a gun pointed at your head. And you want to avoid letting your opponent get the killer combos, like Sun Tzu + Great Wall. It can also be worth your while to deviate from your usual tech path to expire one of your opponent's wonders.

I agree that MP games are much less predictable than games against the AI. I can win the same way in every game against the AI; MP is much more interesting because you're playing competent opposition!

(Proofreading edit)
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited June 08, 2000).]

Ming · June 8, 2000, 13:04

That's why you make a good ally Smash

I'll never forget an arena match that rah and I were in. You know, the first person you meet is you ally, unless he has met somebody else...

So Rah is the first to meet another player.
And the first thing this guy does is demand something (money or science, I forget)
Needless to say, rah was a "tad" pissed... and the rest of us laughed for hours

cavebear · June 8, 2000, 19:11

I have a tendency to play MP games where I am allied with someone as a true partnership effort. In that case, I view the success of my ally as my own success, and I doesn't matter so much to me whether I or my ally aend up in first place as long as one of us does.

This relates to the Wonders effort. If my ally has more cities than I do, then I am naturally going to steer the "whole civ" Wonders toward him/her. Conversely, I expect that the single city Wonders are going to as naturally be mine. The larger civ gets Mike's and Hoover's, the smaller gets ST and JSB's Cathedral, etc.

On my own, though, I really care for Leo's, Mike's, and Hoover's. It wonderful to see warriors become riflemen (eventually), settlers become engineers, and caravans become freight. Mike's advantage is known to all, of course. I like Hoover's for the production gain, and I usually need it about then to launch into some serious late city improvements.

In the early game, it just seems like it is more worthwhile to build granaries and city walls city by city rather than all at once with Pyramids or GW. I'm usually too interested in building settlers and libraries or marketplaces in the early stages.

It depends so much on the situation. I might have to concentrate on military Wonders in some games (Sun and Leo), and science ones in other games. There is no clear rule for building Wonders.

Smash · June 9, 2000, 00:10

Figuring out ASAP what wonders you will actually have a shot at getting first is important and not always so easy.

I have given and received "key" techs to allys with the understanding that the wonder attached was mine or their's.Its better than an ally that withhold technology for fear of missing "their" wonder.If you must have certain wonders,just let me know and I will help you anyway I can to secure them.I can build something else that will useful to our alliance.

My early efforts will steer towards Monarchy,Feudalism and Astronomy.Not always though

Baron O · June 10, 2000, 22:41

quote:

Originally posted by Ming on 06-08-2000 01:04 PM
That's why you make a good ally Smash

I'll never forget an arena match that rah and I were in. You know, the first person you meet is you ally, unless he has met somebody else...

So Rah is the first to meet another player.
And the first thing this guy does is demand something (money or science, I forget)
Needless to say, rah was a "tad" pissed... and the rest of us laughed for hours

isn't it true you consider rah an easy touch, if so why not ask for some thing

rah · June 11, 2000, 17:35

An arena alliance is considered a 100% alliance. If you don't, the other team will kick your butt. I will give my ally anything he asks (as long as I have it). I expect the same in return.
The key word in the story above was "DEMAND". The person (who shall remain nameless), I guess had some misconceptions about alliances. I was expecting a 'Hi, glad I've finally met you, let's see what techs we can trade to start the tech leapfrog and go after the other guys'. Instead I got "give me (pick any) tech or I will destroy you".
Needless to say I was a bit surprised. The other team was quite amused.

RAH

KhanMan · June 11, 2000, 23:46

Well, most of my mp experience has either been alliances, where everything is team play, 100% co-operation, as mentioned above, or interesting two or three player games.

Mostly, I try to go horse-bronze-monarchy, followed by whatever wonder techs are handy, and untaken.

Now, there was one game where I was playing with two newbees, and had a little fun with them. For example: I sent one of them on a merry chase to establish contact, all the while secretly building MPE. Then I got the other one with the old Theology/JS Bach trick: I was one turn away from finishing Bach's, so, right after he finished his turn, I traded Theology to him for Gunpowder.

Need I say more?

Also, sometimes, when I'm playing a friend or tribe-mate in a duel, and obviously losing, I'll just do some wacky stuff, just for the heck of it...like the time I built GL and GW in my duel with War4Ever, or the never-ending loop of endlessly bribed and counter-bibed invasionary fleet...MP games can be so much fun when you're losing!

-KhanMan of the Sayen
0-11, and proud of it!

War4ever · June 12, 2000, 00:02

KhanMan so good to see you again...... hows the mountaineering alliance going :P say we should hook up again for a duel or play some of those "my little ponnies".... icq me 30200920

KhanMan · June 13, 2000, 01:19

Ah, my dear Beaver ally, tis good to see you again!

I've been doing well, thanks to free internet service providers.

I'm normally online (and on ICQ) late at night (after 10 PM Central Time) most days...right now I don't have too much time online (in the normal hours of the day), so mp-gaming has been off, but I'm sure we could arrange a duel sometime.

Ever thy assistant in crushing God's Ponies,
-KhanMan the LLSS

Ely McGreen · June 14, 2000, 21:59

In SP I fart around and dwaldle. Usually I like to get Mono [which is a easy] get the two happy wonders, and then head for democracy and industrialization. By now also I may have won the game, but I usually don't both either conquering all the civs or finishing a SP game. Too boring.

MP, however...

Primary objective is get a sciencetific advantage with enough military tech to get you adaquet defense. Wonders can be useful, but again so what. Let your strategy hinge on two wonders and you'll fail. Let your strat hinge on snabbing up as many as possible and you'll fail. Use a combonation of wonders for some particular aim- such as overseas campaigns, have Magellan and Sun Tzu. For scientific pursuit, Great Lib and Marco Polo [fill in gaps in pursuit of techs]. But never, ever say I need this wonder to defeat so and so. You don't NEED any wonders, save one happy wonder. King Dick with Shakes is a nice combination in a democracy, as you can base a hundred units out of that city [I don't remember when Dick runs out- it may not be forever].

Science- stick with monarchy till you can jump to democracy. From demo aim for [threw indy] flight. This will give adaquet cover from primitives, and give you a powerful chip to play later. Never attack unless victory is assured, then use overwhelming force. Map out your opponent first. Then attack [this works well if you have an enemy and you conspire to turn on your ally- you know his terrain anyhow, and have his trust, thus the perfect victim. This is done to allies you aren't buddy-buddy with. That is, you have a player you regularly team up with, don't double-cross him. Work with him like one civ.

Paul · June 15, 2000, 00:02

King Richard's Crusade goes obsolete with Industrialization.

rah · June 15, 2000, 07:41

I have never built KRC. SP or MP
There always seems to be something more useful.

RAH

monolith94 · June 15, 2000, 13:43

I agree with RAH, I hardly ever build KRC either. I only build it with a city that has 'nothing better to do'. It goes out to quickly!

Ely McGreen · June 15, 2000, 20:13

Shakes and King Dick are still a powerful combo, as long are you have Dick and Shake in a shield rich city and an enemy in close proximity. But yes, Dick is not that valuable.

Sometimes, for the hell of it, I like to build Oracle, and build it when its useful to me. Usually this just drags me down, but hey, in SP you have to give the computer whatever advantage you can.

------------------
Elizer R. McGreen

Ming · June 16, 2000, 09:03

Against the AI, Oracle isn't all that bad. The AI takes forever to finally research Theology. It is not a high priority for them. Yeah, you might get Theology accidentaly from a hut, but that's the breaks...

In a MP game, you can usually count on Theology being discovered, the turn right before or after you build Oracle.
I never build it, and I very seldom see it built in a MP game, and usually it was an accident, or out of desperation

Ely McGreen · June 16, 2000, 10:56

Shoot- I thought I was building Marco Polo. That type of accident?

------------------
Elizer R. McGreen

Ming · June 16, 2000, 11:19

No... But after a few beers, you could be right

I'm talking about those situations where you start building it with EVERY intent of switching it over to something better when the technology becomes available to you. And then forgetting to switch it over. (don't laugh, I've seen it happen before to somebody during a MP game)

Or, you are building it because you have mystism and no other wonder building science, and you are working toward some other goal... like masonary or pottery. And before you can get the science, somebody else builds the wonder so you can't switch off it! I've seen this happen too.

Paul · June 17, 2000, 00:46

I have had similar situations happen to me. In one of my OCC games I started building SETI with the intention of switching to Apollo, but I forgot to switch and was very surprised that the map wasn't revealed and I couldn't build spaceship parts.

East Street Trader · June 24, 2000, 07:15

Any advice on whether a newbie's first MP should be a duel or arena (incidentally what the hell is that?) or some other variant?

Also how do people generally go about lining up a game? I've noticed various boards which look as tho' they run or facilitate MP but have also seen folk issuing casual challenges.

Oh, and I forgot to ask - what kit do I need? I play with an old cd and a 2.42 patch. Pretty up to date pc tho' with an ISDN connection.
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited June 24, 2000).]

Smash · June 24, 2000, 13:24

Arena-4 players(usually).First 2 players to meet are allies.They then tell the other 2 who become allies.Object-Make your alliance more powerful and attack.

You need the Multiplayer version.Called MGE(mi=ultiplayer gold edition) this side of the pond.I think its called Ultimate Civilization Collection your side.Something like that.Should be fairly cheap.

rah · June 24, 2000, 20:33

The original Arena games were also intended to be played on small worlds with the large continent options to encourage warfare early and often.

I can honestly say that I coined the term.

RAH
Lord of the Ferrets

East Street Trader · June 26, 2000, 00:10

Only one thing to say to that Hurah for the ferret.

Also, thanks guys. See one of you in a game sometime - in about four years' time when my butt has aquired sufficient armour plating.

Ming · June 27, 2000, 09:09

East Street Trader... why wait. The best way to learn MP is to just play. Sure, you might get your butt kicked at first, but you will learn much faster. Playing just against the AI will only teach you the basics, and probably a lot of bad habits too...

Plus, I'd rather be in a competitive MP game, and even lose, then play another boring game against the predictable and stupid AI

DaveV · June 27, 2000, 09:39

EST - I think this site is the best place to set up your first MP game. There are a lot of people who hang around here that have (deservedly) good reputations for being patient with newbies. What worked for me was to post a thread on the Multiplayer forum with my preferred times and settings (11:00-12:00 Apolyton time, weekdays; 1x1x in my case).

I second what Ming said: MP is an entirely different game than SP. Reading the multiplayer forum will help you with some of the strategies and tricks, but there's no substitute for actually playing. An arena game might be a good idea for a first game if you find an experienced ally - you can then pick up some tips while playing the game.

Edited time of availability. Can't they fix this clock?
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited June 28, 2000).]

Ming · June 27, 2000, 09:48

Another good way to learn from a MP game is to save every few turns. Later, you can go back and load the files as regular game files, and use the scenario editor to take a look. You can then see what the good players were doing that was different than you