Quicktime to AC

[Matthew]

Having been temporarilly banned from MPG by the cruel, cold handof fate I have been forced to content myself with single player.

Playing on a large world map as the Sioux, with the other civs being the Chinese, Vikings, English, Romans, Egyptians, and the Zulus (original starting positions), restless tribes, and without once asking for tribute or gifts (which in my opinion is more than a bit overly imbalancing), and without rehoming caravans to the super science city, I managed a launch date of 1510 AD, with an arrival date of 1525 AD.

What's more, with a couple simple improvements I'm sure I can go back to a save aroung 1380 AD, (7 turns before launch) and launch by 1480, arriving before the dawn of the 16th century. I can save one turn by getting 4 more cities down, allowing me to build the whole 15-3-2-2 ship in 1 turn instead of 2. Also by not sending some freight off on a journey that they would never have time to complete I should be able to build the Apollo program a turn earlier.

My original intent was to land before 1800, which I didn't think would be all that impressive, so I didn't keep a log. but I can reconstruct a log to a fair degree from saves, so I'll write a loose log tomorrow.

The strategy was fairly straight foreward, and was a Super Science - Trade strategy. I built my capital along the river, where 13 river squares were included in the city radius. It was kind of heavy on plains, but did include wheat. I tried to get my first 7 cities down quickly, while choosing Ceremonial Burial-Alphabet-Bronze-Code-Monarchy-trade. I kept building settlers and martial law units primarily until I got trade, but rather than run off and build new cities immediately these settlersdid a lot of road building and irrigating. My first wonder was the Hanging gardens. Until this was built (in Little Bighorn, my ssc of course) I only got up to 9 cities, with one in the far northeast with 2 pheasants and silk, primarily for shield production, and one where one would find Seattle on a real map. This would be my only American Pacific coast city, and would later prove invaluable.
In all I never had more than 14 American cities, one of which was never much more than a canal city linking the Great Lakes to the Atlantic.

Collossus and MPE followed in that order, and all three early wonders were done by 700 BC I believe. Not an extraordinary task by any means when your whole civ is working on them via caravans, but they did have to all get done early so the AI wouldn't get any of them, and the AI's do tend to start on wonders early on a large world map for some reason.

When I got MPE I found myself well behind in tech, as one would expect for 2 reasons. First, having an entire hemisphere pretty much to myself, I got no extra starting techs, whereas some of the AI's were a bit crowded. Second, the AI's had been trading techs for 85 turns. So this was to be expected. What concerned me was that the Chinese already had mono, and were after Theo. I wanted at least to get MC. Fortunately the Chinese were willing to trade it away, but this would still mean that I would have to be quick to build it if I wanted it.

I kept tech trading to a minimum so as not to slow my research down. I figured I could always trade for other techs as I needed them.

Getting Masonry and Mathematics from trade I was able to get Astronomy almost immediately, and Copernicus was done by 350 B.C. About this time I got navigation, and soon thereafter 3 settlers were on their way to Australia. The idea was to establish a 2 continent trade thing once trade with AI's wore thin. In retrospect I'm not certain this was a worthwhile expenditure of resources, but it could have proven more effective if I hadn't had to deal with Zulus in Australia as well. In all I wound up with 5 cities in Australia, two of which (including Holbane) never amounted to much more than places to build Space Ship parts. I think only 4 caravans from these cities ever reached their destination, although 3 of them did bring in over 800 gold, and one recieved a gold caravan for 450 or so.

I think they would have been far more useful had I not put off celebrating till after I got Railroad. Bye bye gardens. I waited because I wanted to finish JSB first, but since only my SSC ever got above size 12 this proved an unnecessary and costly delay.
(Gardens help more in celebrating cause they don't just make an unhappy content. They make a content happy. Between 12 and 24 cities in republic you often just can not celebrate eeffectively without the Gardens.)

If I had been smart at this point I would have just thrown a few more cities down immediately to get a double unhappy in each city, then celebrated. Instead I went for Democracy first. I was in Democracy by 700 AD, and this was enough, along with a Bank, Market place, and the palace to get my SSC to celebrate at 20 % luxuries. The rest of my civ had to wait for the cure for cancer, since I was too stupid to just build a few more cities instead. (I figured that CfC would be cheaper than about 16 courthouses)

In the mean time, Magellans was completed by 1 AD, with Newton's College and Adam Smiths following shortly thereafter.

I built Magellans because I didn't want to build a lot of boats. I think it was a good idea.

I think you all know why I built Newton's College, and where.

I built Adam Smiths because I tought thatit would be economicall with all the libraries I thought I would build (I never had more than 2) and because Ithought it would take me longer to launch than I did. Should have skipped this one. Trade routes would have been better.

I skipped Leo's cause English got it first, but just as well. Never would have been worth it.

I also built JSB around 500 A.D. (Chinese were quite slow in getting this one). Not sure I should have gotten this. My SSC probably didn't need it to celebrate, and I never got any other city above size 12 anyway.

All through this I kept the AI's happy by gifting techs to them on a very regular basis.

I put Darwin's off as long as possible to get the most out of it since later techs are more expensive.

By 800 A.D. or sooner my Super Science city was graced with a super highway. It was celebrating at 20 % luxuries, and by 1000 A.D. I was over size 20. Soon after this I wasted a bundle on CfC and started celebrating with the rest of my cities as well. I was able to keep up one discovery a turn for the most part with a science rate of 50% (luxuries at 50% to celebrate) and a caravan or 2 every turn. Like I said no city got above size 12, except the big one. By the time they got to this size it had become abundantly clear that I would be getting space flight quite early, and I didn't want to waste resources on sewers.

In the end I got Space flight well before I had the resources to build a ship, but a few well placed caravans, as well as a tax rate of 90% and a few city improvement sales quickly remedied the situation. I did have to fight off a horde of Barbarian musketeers near my science city in the mean time, however. Launch date 1510 A.D. Arrival, 1525 A.D. I also left a lot of room for improvement. I think a launch by 1300 A.D. is certainly feasible with a good start. and a few improvements on what I did. A full 6 turns to revolt to Democracy wasn't exactly a boon either.

A few possible improvements:

1. Celebrate well before railroad comes to screw you over.

2. Build 24 cities. This allows you to build a 15 year space ship in 1 turn. Or if you can amass enough gold to build something that can allow you to build a faster ship, do that too.

3. I could have also built Appollo's before I had the tech to build modules and components. This would have allowed me to build a few structurals while waiting. But once you have the tech to build modules and components, you want to launch the next turn. When turns are still 20 years apart, you gain nothing by waiting a turn to build a faster ship. Remember that when you launch, no matter the time period, turns always go to 1 year apart.

4. 24 or more cities would have also allowed me to celebrate without wasting resources on the CfC.

5. 2 continent trade strategy: I either needed to get democracy earlier to celebrate these Cities up to a better size sooner (it's hard to celebrate when you have 30% corruption even with a courthouse) or I should not have done this. I would have been better served to have built these cities closer to home, and therefore faster, than I was with what I did.

6. Screw Adam Smith.

7. Probably screw JSB as well, although I'm not sure about this one.

8. Had I celebrated earlier not only would I have been able to get more lucrative caravans, but with a few libraries and universities I probably could have gotten 1 discovery a turn with research alone, at least for a while. Add in a judicious use of Caravans, and the occasional 2 tech turn would have also been possible.

One possible drawback here. If you get too big, not only do techs cost more, but your selection tends to get limited as well. Sharing techs liberally with AI's would probably mitigate this somewhat.

9. It would have been nice if the English hadn't gotten invention so darn early. It's nice to be able to get magnetism and the like from a hut.
[This message has been edited by Matthew (edited July 02, 2000).]

[Smash]

great job.Doesn't sound like your SSC had ideal specials either.

You could save a few turns by building a 15-1-1-1-1-1- spaceship.It will not crash.trust me.And since turns are still 10 years each it will shave a few turns.Only effective when turns are still 10 years.

I'm not sure if size 12 is worth it or not.Means you have to get MONO,You were able to trade for it but it would add beakers to your total.With a colliseum,courthouse and trade routes Democratic cities can be kept in order with 0 luxuries.Just stay size 6 or hire specialists.After Electronics size 8 cities require 0 luxuries.This allows you to fully utilize Shake's.But you were getting a tech a turn so I'd say it works well.

Its kinda hard to improve on an early landing like this.Just some thoughts.Real world map is not the best either.

Actully I spose SS size is dependant upon the # of cities so disregard that part.I was thinkin OCC.


[This message has been edited by Smash (edited July 02, 2000).]

[Matthew]

I understand what you are saying about keeping supporting cities small, but my original hope was twofold. First, I wanted to get 4 or 5 other cities up to where they would have a combined output equal to or exceeding the SSC. This would have easilly allowed 1 discovery a turn, and quite possibly, with good beaker management and timing, an average of somewhat better than 1 tech per turn. For example: Start with science about 1/2 full at beginning of turn. Caravan fills the rest. Discoveryat beginning of next turn, before any of the cities science is added in. Then the city science is added in, and this gives you enough beakers for a second tech that turn. You will probably be empty after that, any surplus from toyr ssc, most likely your capital or one of the first two, being lost. Add a caravan. This fills your science up to 1/2 again. You make 1 discovery on the next turn, leaving your science again at 1/2. add caravan again to fill up, and get 2 techs the next turn. In this way I was hoping to get 3 techs every 2 turns. I believe it to be possible, but I needed to celebrate earlier than I did, and needed some more cash than I had at the time. I can think of several ways I could have improved.

And no, a large world mapis probably not ideal. The AI's often have plenty of room to build inland, away from the trade rich and easy to access sea. But it saved a lot on restarts, because this way I was right on a river, and didn't have to worry about any nearby civs making an admittedly defense-challenged strategy less tenable.

[jpk]

Matthew, great job!

Did you build airports? With cities in the US and Australia you could fly freight for a sizable money and science bonus. Even unwanted hides are a good deal.

If you build Adam Smith, consider using the lower taxes to raise your luxury rate, at least for a time. That way your cities can grow through We Love The President Days.

Feel free to ignore these suggestions.

[Matthew]

The time between adanced flight and Space flight was so short that there would have been very little point to spending the time and resources to build airports. Same goes for factories and even Superhighways, except in the SSC.

Actually my tax rate was often set to zero. I usually had plenty of gold just from caravans for upkeep costs. And Adam Smiths was a waste. If I had used those 8 caravans otherwise I probably could have shaved 3 turns from my launch date, if not more.

[East Street Trader]

A well played game indeed Matthew.

Congratulations.

Now I noticed those six anachic turns to democracy because I have been wondering of late what regulates the length of time in anarchy. My own experience suggests that it is random but I am not one who makes lots of changes of government so I am not confident that I would have noticed a pattern.

Is there any learning on this?

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader on 07-03-2000 03:16 PM Now I noticed those six anachic turns to democracy because I have been wondering of late what regulates the length of time in anarchy. My own experience suggests that it is random but I am not one who makes lots of changes of government so I am not confident that I would have noticed a pattern. Is there any learning on this?

I don't think it is random, but more a function of how many governments you have already discovered (barring having SoL) In my experience, if i revolt on the first govt discovered, it takes only 1 turn to organize, reguardless of whether it is Monarchy or Republic. Later revolutions always seem to take longer. maybe its affected by which govt techs the AI have as well?

someone want to verify any of this?

[Smash]

Random.Unless you have SOL .That has been my experience.Completely random.

I was trying Matt's plan on the real world map and Monarchy was 2 turns.Republic was "instant" and Demo was 1 turn.No apparent pattern that I can see.

I hope I'm wrong and someone knows something.

[KhanMan]

I've been trying to repeat, in a lesser way, Matt's strategy, with those settings, and I found something that I assume you guys know about. (if so, could you say whether or not this is, in your view, a cheat?)

It is possible to have every city in your empire start 3 trade routes with your science city, merely by doing normal trade routes. Since the science city, like any city, can only have 3 trade routes at a time, it will only trade with 3 other cities, but you can have many cities (15 in my last game) trading with it (the trade route benefits the non-SSC). This means a lot more trade for cities that just trading with normal rules.

Is it a cheat? Have you guys done this before?

-KhanMan the LLSS

[Matthew]

No, it's not a cheat. But I personally prefer to send those caravans overseas for the bonus. Of course if you have a commodity that noone demands, perhaps you would be better off sending it into the SSC.

Generally when a caravan arrives in a city that already has its trade routes full it will only drop one for the new route if the new one is more lucrative. But the originating city still gets a route.

[Adam Smith]

Great job Matt.
I have always advocated establishing trade routes with foreign cities, but I have traded primarily with domestic cities in the last couple fast finish games I have played. The basic problem is that in a really fast finish like Matt is talking about, the AI cities are either too small or too far away to make it worth the trouble. The only true trading asset you have is an SSC that is really big really early. Funneling all of your trade into this one city is like rehoming in reverse. I see no reason whatsoever that this should be connsidered a cheat.

[Matthew]

I don't do it because it seems obvious that it wasn't intended, since one of the two menus disallows it specifically, and it can't be done atall in MP.

[Adam Smith]

Matthew:
What I meant was that I see no reason why funneling all of your trade to one city should be considered a cheat. I dont see any reason this wasnt intended, to my knowledge there is no menu that disallows this, and you can do it MP, right?

My current game using the SOC challenge (ie small) board looks like it will finish up in the 1100's. Currently it is 600 ad or so, the SSC is size 22, and the biggest AI city on the board is about size 8. Under these circumstances why not keep all the trade domestic?

[Civ-wrecked]

Sigh, This is great, Mathew, congratulation. I've been trying to get the fastest AC and the best I've got so far is 1854 .
A few questions:
1) Is this single or double production ? I can't even imagine getting Collossus. HG, MPE and Cope's by 350 BC. None of my games ever get anywhere close to that right at the beginning and so it can easily explain the rest of the game . Anyway, it gives me a target to shoot for.
2) Don't you have any problems celebrating after RR and before Cures for Cancer ? I find that the number of happy faces can never be more than the number of content faces after RR abd before Cures for Cancer so I had to skip celebrating during this critical period where most post-trireme cities have reached size 3 or more. This bug really puts a brake on growth.

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by Civ-wrecked on 07-05-2000 04:10 PM 2) Don't you have any problems celebrating after RR and before Cures for Cancer ? I find that the number of happy faces can never be more than the number of content faces after RR abd before Cures for Cancer so I had to skip celebrating during this critical period where most post-trireme cities have reached size 3 or more. This bug really puts a brake on growth.

have you tried using an entertainer in your size 3 cities? even with 30% luxuries I can usually get my size 3 cities to 5 just on a marketplace and maybe a temple depending on # of sea spaces available for use. usually results in 0 shields for production, but i'd consider it worth it.

[Civ-wrecked]

>have you tried using an entertainer in your >size 3 cities? even with 30% luxuries I can
usually get my size 3 >cities to 5 just on a marketplace and maybe >a temple depending on #
> of sea spaces available

Normally, I only need a market place and all would work well up to over size 8 before I need a bank (since I always try to get the HG and Cure for Cancer, BTW).
The failure to pop boom problem only happens in the time period between the discovery of RR and building the Cure of Cancer. Even if I use 100% luxury and turn workers into entertainers I can never get the number of happy citizens to be more than the number of content citizens. Therefore, size 4 city will get 2 happy and 2 content and will pop boom but a size 3, or 5, or any odd number city will ALWAYS have less happy citizens than content citizens and can't pop boom. That makes the pop boom plan pretty dysfunctional . Now I always have to plan for the pop boom before the discovery of RR, and also try to delay this RR dicovery as much as possible, even to the point of leaving the AI to get to it first.
I mentioned this fact a few years ago and some people also noticed this.

[Matthew]

Adam Smith

Sorry, I misunderstood. Certainly trading with yourself isn't a cheat. I find that going forign is generally worthwhile however. Especially on a large world with most of your cities close together. I do like to establish some cities off continent to get some two continent self trading going, however.

What kind of trade bonuses are you getting?

Sounds like you're doing pretty darn good.

Yes, celebrating after the railroad and before CfC is a real pain. In fact the railroad can suck for another reason as well.

In my last attempt I wasn't careful enough about trading certain techs away, and the Romans got the railroad. It wasn't until after a surprisingly low trade bonus that I realized that I had screwed myself more than I had thought. The railroad halves all trade bonuses. So I had to get to corporation before caravans were worth much again.

If you are in democracy you can also build courthouses to help celebrate. I think it likely best to content yourself with just a few big cities and build courthouses rather than CfC if you are going for a quick launch.

By the way, where could I get an SOC challenge map?

I've thought of trying on a medium size world map, but I don't know how long some of the AI's would last, as so many of them are so packed together in Europe.

I can usually get Collossus, HG, and MPE (necessary if you are alone in America on a large world map) by 650 BC or sooner. It basically ammounts to rapid expansion to 7-10 cities,building another set of settlers for roads and irrigation, then turning your entire civ into a caravan factory.

My early tech usually prioritizes getting to Astronomy and Navigation. I like Magellans because it is so good for long distance trading. I like Mono too, but I can't help but wonder if I shouldn't send those 8 caravans off on trade routes and buy either Cathedrals or collosseums in the few cities I want to celebrate instead. It's just hard for me to turn down a 400 shield wonder that is just 40 shields cheaper than 3 of the many cathedrals it would replace. If I were just trying to focus on the SSC I would skip it, but I believe that on a large map the fastest way to victory is probably to have an SSC and 5 or 6 other cities you concentrate on as trade cities, and use the rest in a supporting role.

[This message has been edited by Matthew (edited July 05, 2000).]

[Paul]

Civ-Wrecked, I never seem to have your problem. Do your cities perhaps have any units in the field? I only get that problem when my city gets larger than 20. In that case you will need a courthouse which makes a content citizen happy in democracy.

[SCG]

quote: Originally posted by Civ-wrecked on 07-05-2000 07:04 PM Even if I use 100% luxury and turn workers into entertainers I can never get the number of happy citizens to be more than the number of content citizens. Therefore, size 4 city will get 2 happy and 2 content and will pop boom but a size 3, or 5, or any odd number city will ALWAYS have less happy citizens than content citizens and can't pop boom.

personally, I'm surprised - even in my outer cities of a republic, i usually can get a city from 3 to 5 by working the high trade squares exlusively (ocean, trade specials) and using elvi. of course in republic i have to push my luxuries up to about 50%. And I can't remember the last time I built the hanging gardens - someone always seems to build it before i do. Now for lower luxury rates, i do have that problem for odd sized cities greater than 5, but with a trade special or a trade route or 2, that usually can be overcome for the mid-sized towns. As one other thought, I've recently rediscovered the value of courthouses. I still don't build too many of them, but they do provide a nice boost to a city that just doesn't have enough food to produce the # of elvi needed to celebrate.

[arii]

A while ago (at least 6 months ago) I went through a similar type of challenge. But I did not restrict myself with tributes,...
I landed if I remember well in 1060AD. I built a lot more cities than you. You can try to fish out the thread for more details.

[Civ-wrecked]

quote: Originally posted by SCG on 07-06-2000 07:07 AM And I can't remember the last time I built the hanging gardens - someone always seems to build it before i do. Now for lower luxury rates, i do have that problem for odd sized cities greater than 5, but with a trade special or a trade route or 2, that usually can be overcome for the mid-sized towns. As one other thought, I've recently rediscovered the value of courthouses.

I meant the problem happens during this time period between the end of the HG and the build of the CfC, not because the lack of the HG or the CfC. I can pop boom without the HG before the discovery of RR as well with only 30% lux, but after RR, the happiness bug hit and I can't get a pop boom in any odd-size cities, even those with over 100 trade arrows, regardless of how much luxury rate I use. I just get the same number of happy citizens for any luxury rate between 30% and 100% in a democracy. I use the original CivII CD so I might have a bug that has been fixed in later versions/patches, I guess.
Anyway, back to the topic, thanks Matthew for the pointer, I think my problem is the lack of early foreign trade routes since I mainly trade with my SSC. Back to the drawing board again. I do hate sailing by triremes !!

[Adam Smith]

Matthew:
Last I checked I was getting trade bonuses of about 100 by using cities on the outer edges of my territory for trade and interior cities for food and wonders. I may need to boost city size to keep this going, but the decent sizes foreign cities are hard to reach.

You can find the first (and so far only SOC challenge game HERE, posted coourtesy of John-SJ. If this link doesnt work, drop me a line and I will e-mail you a copy. Its a really sweet start.

[Matthew]

Arii

Dag nab, tribute or no that's pretty impressive. What size map? I've been playing on a large world map in hopes of doing a lot better than one could with OCC. But I'm no longer so sure OCC wouldn't work on a large world map. Someone ought to try it. Perhaps the best place for it would be China. Far enough from most civs for a reasomable chance for security, yet you don't have to build MPE to contact the rest of the world like I do playing the Sioux.

[arii]

It was a small random map. It would be interesting to try on a world map.

[patriot]

quote: Originally posted by Matthew on 07-02-2000 06:06 PM Playing on a large world map as the Sioux, with the other civs being the Chinese, Vikings, English, Romans, Egyptians, and the Zulus (original starting positions), restless tribes, and without once asking for tribute or gifts [This message has been edited by Matthew (edited July 02, 2000).]

What level were you playing at? I have only been playing for about 1 month and I always play at (diety/raging hordes/large world). Is the performance you describe possible at this level?

I would also appreciate some tips on growing cities quickly. Do you have to go straight to republic to do this or do you start with monarchy?

Thanks.

[Matthew]

Just landed in 1455 A.D. again as the Sioux (Chief Stinking Skunk.) Large world map, against English, Chinese, Romans, Zulus, Egyptians, and the Vikings. Again without rehoming caravans or askinf for tribute. I don't know how effective asking for tribute would have been anyway on a continent all by myself. I was too powerful for most of the game to get anyone to ally with me (except by going to war with another civ, but that is bad for camels.) This time I dispensed with JSB, CfC, and Adam Smiths, building CO, CL, INC, HG, MPE, MC, Magellans, and of course Apollo. I got Space flight around 1260 A.D. but it took me a while to muster up the cash to build the Space ship. Trade routes weren't that good this time. I didn't get a single rout over 800 gold, and very few over 600. I gave almostevery civ Automobile, but no forign city ever demanded oil at any time. If 3 or 4 had it would have easily cut 150 years off of my landing date. I didn't build any cities in Australia this time, only a few in South America. It would have been nice to have a city in Australia or 2 demand oil this time, even if they were my own and were size 1.
I focused on growing my SSC and 5 other good trade cities. My SSC gor to size 28 in the end, and topped 1000 science (maybe more before the collossus expired) but none of the other trade cities got over size 14, I could have done it, but as space flight was approaching it became obvious that resources, not tech, would be the limiting factor, and it would not be worth expending the resources to grow much more. I should have either tried to get a few more cities up to size 12 rather than trying to get a few up to 20+, or I needed to grow them early enough that they would have justified the resources so expended. And next time I'm going to just try to get a few Australian cities built for self trade, and not worry about growing them.

[Matthew]

I was playing at Diety, restless tribes. And not only is it possible on Diety, but I'm certain that playing under the conditions I described 1100 A.D. is possible. And North America on the world map isn't exactly an excellent location. Arii won even sooner than that on a small map (cheaper tech advances), but I think he got tribute, and I don't know if he rehomed his caravans.

And I do go into monarchy first.When playing under these conditions I usually try to trade for republic around 1 A.D.and celebrate then, perhaps a bit later. depends on what resources I have for building temples and the like.

[Hueij]

Just a question. Isn't playing on a random map more fun? With exploring and all?

[Matthew]

I generally do play on a random map, and mainly for that reason. But I was trying to see how early I could make it to AC, and I knew for a very early landing it would be helpful if I had a decent river for an SSC, and if other civs were on other continents for better trade routes. Granted, knowing the map in advance was an advantage. On the other hand North America on the large world map doesn't exactly have any stellar sites for a SSC, and I could probably get a better start on a Random map. Also computer generated maps tend to force the AI to build closer top the sea, making for better trade routes. But I didn't want to spend hours just trying to get a great start, so I went withone I knew would be somewhat decent.

[arii]

Great score matt! Large map makes it difficult techwise.
The 1060 game was deity rag horde small random map. I did rehome a lot of caravans and asked for tributes.