Beginner's guide to Diety.

[Matthew]

Introduction:

A lot of people here post with questions about how to win at Diety. Usually what they get is a wide range of opinions as to what they should do to improve their game, some of it seemingly contradictory, and generally not comprehensive. the intention of this post is to primarily help someone beginning at Diety to be able to win. The main focus will be single player games, but certainly I will include a section on MP play. I don't consider myself to be a great expert, but I have little difficulty winning at diety now, so this should be helpful to newcomers.

As mentioned, the focus will be diety. Much will also apply to lower difficulty levels, but I should think that a newcomer might just as well at least try Diety into diety as soon as he gets a general feel for the game.

I won't cover all possible topics in great depth. The aim here is the basics. Learn the basics of what it takes to win at diety. after that you can experiment.

throughout I will assume you are playing on a random medium size map, with barbs set at restless tribes, and 7 civs. Main reason, for generality.

THE FIRST 1000 YEARS:

The opinions as to the best approach at this point of the game are incredibly varied, but I don't claim that this is necessarily the best approach. But it does work for me, and should work for you.

WHERE TO BUILD?

At Diety you will always start out with 2 settlers.if you start out in what looks like a good location don't spend a lot of time wandering around unless you are trying a goody huts first approach, as described later on. The ideal starting location, assuming no terrain specials, is probably about half grassland with a decent scattering of hills and trees, and sea squares. But don't insist on a perfect start. No harm in taking a couple of turns to look around, but if you have a decent start, build quickly. Just be sure you have enough food to grow and to support a couple of workers on more shield or trade intensive squares. And if you can see the coast, might as well move next to it so you can build a harbor later on. There are in fact many advantages to a coastal city, which will be described later on. And it's generally worth while to take a couple of turns to grab a goody hut that you see right off. First of all, since you don't have any cities, it won't be a barb hut, and secondly, if you get a unit, it will be a non unit.

now suppose you don't have an ideal start. Perhaps you have a lot of mountains, hills, or whatever. what's the best way to find good terrain?

First step, look at the small map in the upper right hand corner. the only area visible there will be the area you can already see. are you in the North, south, or center? General rule of thumb; the closer you are to the poles, the more trees and less grassland you are likely to have. so if you are to the north, go south. To the south, go north. More towards the center, probably try moving east or west. In this situation any goody hut you come across is worth taking because any unit you get will make your search that much more effective.

2nd step. Before you go wandering off do some mouse recon. look at the grid location of the active unit on the right. You will see that there is a 3rd number. This is a number that represents the continent or the sea you are in. Sometimes the adjacent sea will have the same number as the continent you are on, but often it will not. First click around on the continent that you are on to convince yourself that the 3rd number doesn't change. If there are any ocean squares around, click on those. you may see a different number, or you may see the same number. Also try clicking around in the black to see if there are any seas around. It can be very helpful to get a general feel of the land or coast this way before wandering around. especially if you are stuck on a peninsula and can't tell which way the main and mass is. Some consider this a cheat, but it's an option.

So you've decided which way to wander in search of a building spot Should you split up or keep your settlers fairly close together? unless you seem to be in a constricted penunsula that you can't recon in general you want them fairly close together, perhaps 4 or 5 squares apart. The mail reason is that your first form of government will be despotism, and that's real bad for corruption for any city not real close to your capital.

Keep in mind that you are not necessarily going to insist on a great spot for a size 35 city. you can find (or make) such spots later if you want them. At this stage Think size 8, or maybe even as small as 6, if the terrain just ain't good. You can always move your capital to a better location if you want later, but for right now you want to get that city down producing units and science.
Note. If you start out with more than 1 extra tech you probably either have another civ near by or you are on a small island. If you have another civ near by you can't really be very choosy at all about starting location.

BUILDING THE CITY.

Before Monarchy, unless you have Banannas in your proposed city radius, NEVER NEVER NEVER build on anything but plains or grassland. the one exception might be a pheasant. but only if options are really slim. If you build on anything but grassland or plains 9or a food special) your growth will be pathetic early on, and likely your trade will be also. you want that first city to get up to size 2 fairly quickly to increase science and so that you can crank a settler out.

Early roads.

If you don't have a trade special in your city radius, or a couple of river squares, take the time to build a couple of roads on shielded grassland squares. If the second settler is near by build your first city and use the second settler to build a couple of roads. the idea is to have your early cities, when possible, be able to get 3 trade at size 2, from the city square itself and 2 shielded grassland squares with rivers or roads. This will effectively double the science output of your capital and any nearby cities (within 4 squares) at size 2. And this will get you to Monarchy, your first major tech goal, that much faster. trade specials will vary the equasion, as will difficulty in getting your settler to the grassland you want to road. you can decide for yourself when it is worth the effort. But at this point don't build anything but roads. Mines take too long, and irrigation won't do any good before Monarchy.

EARLY TECH CHOICES.

Your primary goal at this point is Monarchy. Whenever you have a tech choice that will lead to monarchy, take it. At this point, unless you began with a tech, this means that you should choose Ceremonial burial first. (Given a choice between alphabet and ceremonial burial, choose Ceremonial burial; if you choose Alphabet first, then get a tech from a trade or an earlyhut, your next tech option will not be one that leads to Monarchy). If you don't have a tech leading to monarchy as an option, bronze working is generally an excellent choice. this will both allow you to begin working on a wonder (Collosus, although you will probably want to change to another wonder as soon as you have the tech) and allow you to build a defensive unit, a phalanx. If you already started with a tech that leads to a wonder you may prefer warrior code or horseback riding. Archers will allow you to kill a barb or other enemy unit next to your city, and a horse, while not a good defender, can both explore, and reach out and kill a unit before it can get right up to your city.
Map making may be a better option on a small island, if you know you are on one. Defense will then be less important, and it will allow expansion, exploration, and starting a wonder. But never pick any of these in favor of a tech leading to Monarchy.

Now for a brief aside on goody huts early on. The biggest danger from a goody hut early on isn't barbs. It's a tech that will not help you get to monarchy. not only does each new tech cost more beakers than the one before, but having more techs will reduce your choices. (note; starting out with extra tech doesn't seem to affect tech cost, but getting a tech from a goody hut or other civ before you build your first city will)
Once you have your cities down, THE ONLY TIME I recommend going into a hut before you are at least researching monarchy is when the only tech you have is alphabet and you are either researching Code of laws or Ceremonial Burial. if you get a tech at this point it will either be something that you need on the way to monarchy or will count as the one non-monarchy tech that the computer always insists you get on your way to monarchy.

EARLY GOALS:

If your new to Diety the first difference that you will notice is that unhappiness is a much bigger factor than it was even on Emperor. Also the AI's seem to get techs sooner and can build wonders faster. So your early strategy should focus largely on keeping your people content while you grow and doing something about your hapiness. So I reccomend as your early goals the following :

1. 8 decent cities by 500 BC. By decent I mean that they have at least some room to grow.

2. Monarchy asap. In diety happiness is a big enough problem with the second citizen in a city being unhappy. But under despotism the riot factor kicks in with your 5th city, which means that at this point in at least 1 city (not necessarily the fith one you built) the first citizen will also be unhappy. Just 1 more reason to make monarchy a big priority.

3. Hanging Gardens by 600 BC. Although I have seen AI's build wonders earlier than this, if you can build it by 650 BC you won't usually get beat to it. if you do, all is not lost. You can settle for the oracle since AI's usually put a low priority on theology (the tech that makes the Oracle obsolete), but although the oracle will keep 2 people content per city, Hanging gardens is still a better choice for the following reasons:

a. the oracle does no good in a city that doesn't have a temple, which no city does when you first build it.

b. HG lasts longer usually, because theology usually comes before the rail road (which makes HG obsolete).

c. Whereas the oracle only makes people content, HG will make 1 citizen happy in each city. there are various ways of making unhappy people content, but HG is the only wonder until the late game that will make anybody happy. HG is very helpful for celebrating We Love the President Day (under Democracy) and essential for celebrating in republic. more on celebrating later. many would argue about the single most important wonder, but we're not interrested in that here. We are interrested in someone new to Diety being able to win. For these purposes HG is probably the biggest help at this point.

4. Mysticism. Mysticism will double the effectiveness of your temples. Before you discover mysticism temples make 1 citizen content. After mysticism they make 2 content.

OK, now let's talk about how to achieve these goals. You have already built your first city, hopefully with a couple of roads. your next task is to find a decent spot for your 2nd city. since you are going to be working on a wonder fairly early you need at least one of your first two cities to have some decent shield production potential. at a minimum you should be able to produce 5 or 6 shields a turn at size 4, under Monarchy, and 8 at size 6. This means both being able to produce the shields and not starve, ideally with enough food left over for at least some growth. Remember also that you will need the food to grow enough to meet that potential.

So now that you have built your first two cities, what? First choose which city to use for your wonder building city. This might not necessarily mean the one with more shield production, especially if the one with high shield potential would be missing out of the chance to work on some trade specials or also has a food resource that will allow it to spit out settler's rapidly.

Both cities should get ready to build a settler. A small city (size 2) working shielded grassland will certainly need to build 2 warriors, because the city will almost certainly reach size 3 before you are done with the settler will be unless you have a bit of extra cash at this point. Of course if you have the extra cash for the settler, go ahead and speed the process. (more on rush buying later) But if you have a whale or another shield producing resource you may be able to get away with 1. Once you have the warriors you will need to control unhappiness for a while start building a settler ineach city. It should still be a few turns yet before your city reaches size 3, so go ahead and explore the immediate vicinity of your cities with the 2nd warrior. but be sure not to go to far, as the warriors will be needed soon. But at least you will have a better idea on which way to send your settler out looking when you are done.

You may be feeling a bit thin on defense at this point. Don't worry. in restless tribes barbs don't start to appear until 3000 BC except for barbs from huts, and barbs seem to attack your capital at a big disadvantage at this point of the game any way. (A warrior in your capital at this time will usually beat off an attacking barb archer.) rapid expansion is what matters now.

Once the future wonder city has built the settler go ahead and build another warrior, or at this point perhaps a phalanx, for defense, and then determine whether or not you will need a temple before you complete your wonder. if you have 1 or 2 good shield resources perhaps you can get away with no temple. Other wise build the temple, unless the city will be so low on food that it won't likely grow much over the next 20 turns or so.. Go ahead and rush buy the temple once you have already put a few shields towards it if you can. the cost for rush buying shields on a building is a lot less than the cost of the equivalent number of shields going towards a wonder, so this is a good buy. (note: be sure that you have at least 1 shield in the production box before you rush buy, or the price per shield will be DOUBLE !!!) once you have your 3 military untis and temple in your wonder city, start building the wonder.

When the settler leaves your wonder city be sure to build at least a couple of roads for trade (if they will prove useful) before moving off to build your next city.

If you are still in despotism do not favor shields over trade too much, even in the city building the wonder. Yes, you need those shields, but more trade=more science=less time to Monarchy. and monarchy will greatly increase your productivity. But while in anarchy (between the time you revolt from despotism to the time you are proclaimed king) remember that you will get no science or gold from trade during this time, so manage your citizens accordingly. (note; in anarchy waste also increases, but your capital will have no waste. As you could be in anarchy for as long as 6 turns, this is something to consider when deciding where to start your wonder.) with the city not building the wonder I suggest you build 3 settlers, or at least 2, before you build anything else there besides the occasional military unit for hapiness, and maybe another unit to explore a bit, especially if you haven't managed to get a non unit from a goody hut.

With the first settler you build from the non wonder city I suggest you build another road or 2 for trade and to help get the next two settlers to where they are going a bit faster. t
This will often pay off well above the 4 turns that you will invest in doing this. (if you need to do a lot of wandering to get to grassland to build the roads, don't bother. And at this point don't take the time to put roads on anything but grassland and plains. Anything else is a waste of time at this stage. If convenient you may want to send the 2nd setler to build a couple of roads or irrigate 1 (no more than 1 yet) square for your wonder city. This will help that city grow faster, and thus more productive, while building the wonder.
with the 3rd settler from this city you may want to irrigate a square for this settler before you move on if the city is having trouble getting surplus food. But don't waste too much time in turning these 3 settlers into cities. By the time your 3rd settler from this city is built you should already have 4 cities.

EARLY FORIGN RELATIONS.

Assuming you don't have another civ ridiculously close to you, and that the AI is not blocking your only route of expansion (and that you are not blocking his) the most important aspect of forign relations at this point, should you come into contact with another civ, is tech trading. mefore Monarchy the best thing to do here is very similar to my comments about goodie hut popping. unless you are at least already researching Monarchy don't trade teh unless you know for a fact that you will be getting something that will help you get there. As above an exception would be if you have alphabet and no other techs, and are researching either code of laws or ceremonial burial. then the one (and only one) tech you get will count as the one non Monarchy tech that the game insists you get before getting Monarchy.

Once you have Monarchy go ahead and trade tech with the AI freely. It will improve your relations and may help avoid a war that you do not want to be in yet.

For the most part I am not an advocate of early wars. far better to expend your resources in growing, and you don't want to waste effort researching military techs that won't help you in other ways. Of course if there is a near by civ you may not have a choice but to research these war fighting techs.

On the other hand, if you find a new or likely weakly defended city with non- units, especially if it is near your borders, go ahead and pick a fight. If you do take the city, and didn't break a peace treaty in the process, the ai civ will generally offer tribute for peace immediately after, if you didn't just wipe him out.

you may ask how you can find out if it would be wise to risk your precious non-unit ahainst an ai city at this point of the game. a fortified phalanx will usually stand up against a horse and has a 50 50 chance against an archer or chariot. question is, does the ai have either bronze or warrior code? well, here is an easy (all be it not sure fire ) way to find out. First, ask to exchange knowledge. see if the AI either asks for one of these techs if you have it, or if the AI offers one of these techs to you if you don't have one. If you aren't at least researching Monarchy be sure not to accept the trade unless he offers something that will help you get it. if you do have Monarchy, and his negotiating hasn't given you a clue as to what tech he has, go ahead and accept the offer. Then you can see all the techs he has. If the AI refuses to trade techs, or your negotiating didn't verify anything, offer him a gift. This doesn't mean that you give him what he asks for. You just want to see what he asks for. If the AI only asks for 1 tech, that means that it is the only tech you have that he doesn't. If he scorns the offer, he already has everything you do. otherwise you will get a choice of two gifts to give him. if he doesn't ask for anything military you may want to give him one of the techs he asks for, then try again until you can be certain that he doesn't have any defensive techs. Now you can make a better decision as to whether or not to attack.

Say you are not opting for war (generally the best option early on if you don't have a potential freebee or are not blocked from expansion). often times the first time you contact an AI the AI will demand tribute, especially if the AI started out on a continent that you are not on. Should you give it? Well, here too it depends. If an explorer of your's meets the AI far from home you have little to fear from the AI other than the loss of your explorer. But if he is closer to home, and it seems likely that he has superior military tech, you may want to avoid war if you don't have much to defend yourself with. But in general I would be quicker to give away tech than money to avoid war. Money you can often use to hurry expansion, whereas giving the AI tech won't hurt you unless he uses it to beat you to a wonder or to build military units he other wise could not. on the other hand, by giving him the tech often his attitude will improve to where he will be willing to trade techs, whereas otherwise he would not.

One more thing to consider. Depending on the civ perhaps, and how close he is to you, often when an AI makes war on you you can talk to him 2 or 3 turns later, and although not a battle has been fought, he will ask for a cease fire. If you refuse he may want to continue the war, or he may offer tribute of some type to get a cease fire. You can often also get tribute from him similarly by refusing his first offer of a peace treaty. More on tribute later.
More later. Please do not respond.

CONTINUED EXPANSION AND GAME DIRECTION:

So now you have 4 cities and 1 on the way, as well as a wonder well on it's way to construction. (If 1 of your settler's got killed by barbs, don't fret. these things happen, but even 4 cities at this point is doing decently well). now what should you do? Well, if either one of your new cities is in a good shield producing area, or if the city that has been cranking out settlers has decent production, go ahead and start prepping a city to start building another wonder. Yuo may want to have this city start right away on a temple, which is to be rush bought if at all possible, and supply the marshall law warriors and a defensive unit from your other cities. Two of your other cities should probably build warriors, or better yet a 2 movement unit if you have the tech, to go do some exploring. this will help you to

a. Find goodie huts

b. Find the best sites for future cities.

c. By exposing more land, give you more advanced notice of barbarians that may be wandering towards you.

d. Find the AI's.

here is a useful tip for getting a bit more out of your explorers; at least the ones that are not non units. Every turn, after you have moved an explorer, go to the city supporting it, and click on that unit's representation in the support screen. It will tell you what city it is closest to, even if it is closest to someone else's city that you have not found yet. This will give you a better idea of where the AI is, and will help you to make contact earlier.

Land Improvement

Say you've built your first 7 or 8 cities, but don't have HG yet. Build much more and you could run into unhappiness problems. This is probably agood time to start irrigating and building roads. If you don't have any settlers left at this point build one from each city that is not building a wonder. You should probably have one settler per city just for land improvement. This is even a good idea for a size 2 city. This is important even if your settler is improvimg land faster than your cities can grow to use it. At some point hopefully you will have the chance to grow Via we love the president's day celebration, and it helps to have roads and irrigated land ready for your new citizens. Note. One advantage to building adjacent to the sea, especially if you have 6 or more sea squares within the city radius, is that these squares do not need to be improved. Just build a harbor, and in republic or democracy you can get 2 food and 3 trade from each sea square.

WHAT NOW?

It's around 600 BC, and you've built your first wonder, perhaps working on another, and you have 7 or 8 cities (or more) being improved by settlers. Now what? At this point it's important to decide what kind of a game you want, and where you are in relation to other civs. It's entirely possible to win on a medium size map with only 7 or 8 cities. Many here advocate 60 or more. Lately I've generally contented myself with 15 for most of the game, building more at the end to help build spaceship parts faster.

More later. Please don't reply.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Matthew (edited July 09, 2000).]</font>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Matthew (edited July 09, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by Matthew (edited July 09, 2000).]

Thanks, I'm still playing on Emporer. But this looks like it would help. I've picked up bits and pieces from various threads. But this should be a big help.

sorry, I didn't see that please do not respond bit, until I finished reading it.
[This message has been edited by Black Bart (edited February 07, 2000).]

[Matthew]

bump

[Sergeant Sheets]

If you're lucky enought to end up near some rivers, make you move toward trade and Republic. True, early wars are a pain in the ass, but if you have a good ally, and you aren't stupid with your maps and so on, your republic can get a jump on the tech war and build itself a niche in the game's economics.

Even in Deity, Republic is feasible early in the game. Even without Hanging Gardens it is reliable, just that I suggest you make all deliberate efforts to get one of the two other happy wonders (Mike's Chapel or JS Bach).

My favorite strat:

1. Head for Monarchy ASAP. Once you have that, flex you muscle and beef up your army. Explore and make as much war as far from your center as possible. Like a a culture of germs, one city destroyed in 500 BC is 10 cities destroyed in 1500 AD.

2. Trade. Marco Polo. Caravans. Caravans. Caravans. Marketplaces. The cornerstone to any successful civ.

3. Republic (depending upon how much NATURAL, not caravan, trade you have. Many rivers and/or ocean squares with resources, then I say go Republic early, just be sure to have

a) An ally
b) All political matters resolved


4. This is where the fork splits. If you are weak in Natural trade, then I suggest you stick with monarchy for a while. If you have access to a lot of open seas, head for Lighthouse- this makes triemes and naval invasions possible without having to hug the coast. Then make it to Magellan's Expedition- with this you have the upper hand in all naval engagements and naval opperations.

But if your a land power, then head for Sun Tzu and Great Wall. Neither are necessary, but if you're arch rival gets Great Wall, then you must capture the principal city first, or else you'll loose tons of units trying to capture each city.

With Sun Tzu you're armies have the upper hand in all their engagements. This makes sneak attacks and land war feasible.

5. Financing an empire. Many people swear by caravans. I don't, although their nice. Caravans are an important aspect of the game, but you're main object is and all should be to harass the enemy. Like my germ example, you must attack early and when they least expect it. If you're smart you'll succeed [hopefully Matt reads this] and take a couple cities before their opposition hits back. Even if you loose the cities [and I hope that if you're going to loose a city you sell off the most valuable improvement the turn before], you're militantism has consumed more reasources from the enemy than it has yours, and thus you've succeeded.

But empire is not just militantism. It's colonizing any damn thing you can get hold of. By doing this you can establish caravan routes from the extremes of your empire to the extremes of another empire, and in doing so both will make a tidy profit, both initally and over time. With massive empire comes science. I like to build cities till the world is overpopulated with my cities because 1)It keeps the opponent out, at least till he attacks 2)For each pop 1 city, I get at least 1 beaker, and by 500 AD I get 2 and sometimes 3 beakers, just for existing. Plus I have a base to build {or buy) an army from on a moment's notice. That's the advantage of empire.

How do you pay for all this? Caravans help, but roads are the key. Building a road on top of every river, along with Republic, is a surefire way to drive the old science rate threw the roof, and give you enough gold coins so that you'll looked like Scrouge McDuck.

Uff, enough nonsense for one night.

[geofelt]

I learn something new every day. Thanks for the tip on the third number showing the continent id.

[Matthew]

bump

[SmartFart]

[quote]Originally posted by Matthew on 02-07-2000 10:46 PM

Before Monarchy, unless you have Banannas in your proposed city radius, NEVER NEVER NEVER build on anything but plains or grassland. the one exception might be a pheasant. but only if options are really slim.


Why not on a wino? Or spice? Or on some polar specials,oasis etc.?

[rah]

I disagree, i'll drop my capital on gold in a MP game so fast your head will spin. Since I get the one food out of it, I can take advantage of it more quickly. I also get a road on it to start. This will get me to monarchy faster than almost anything else will. If the rest of the special pattern is that good, the second settler can take advantage of them. The same goes for any other "trade" special, but for any of the others I will look to see if it makes sense to try to locate to take better advantage of it. I've also camped on wine often.

Mountains or Hills also provide great defensive positions early on for barb protection which is important when you're playing raging hoards. If there is other close terrain that is that good, later cities can take advantage of them. In MP games, the first to Monarchy gets quite an advantage.

RAH

[DaveV]

I'm with rah and SmartFart. By building on Gold/Iron, you pick up a free food and road; by building on Fruit/Furs/Spice, you pick up a free shield and road. Some people argue that you should mine grapes before you build on them, but if you don't, you get a free shield, food, and road. It takes a while to push a road through these squares, and they all have at least a decent defensive bonus.

In the early game, speed kills. You need to stake out the boundaries of your territory; what better way to do it than to build on a good defensive spot? I hate to have my settlers sitting around irrigating or mining - their job is to build cities, pronto!

[Sieve Too]

As a general rule, it is not a good idea to ever build a city on a special terrain type - and this is especially true for your first cities. Why? The way specials are laid out, if you build on one, you won't have any others in your city radius. This can cost many valuable trade arrows and shields during those first few thouseand years.

[Sieve Too]

I can't speak for MP, but I would still prefer to build where I can take advantage of multiple specials. If you build on one, you can't easily take advantage of the others in the pattern without overlapping cities.

[jpk]

Building the science city so that it takes advantage of as many specials as is possible makes a lot of sense.

While I try to space cities so that each city has a number of specials the maps have a sufficiently convoluted shape that there are always isolated specials that would otherwise get missed. Putting a city right on top of the special seems to make sense to me. If a special is spice you get the immediate advantage of having a road on the special. This is especially useful prior to engineers. Also, if you build on top of a buffalo, you get immediate benifit of railroads when you develop that technology. I like to use buffalo cities to build veteran defensive units and wheat cities to build settlers.

[rah]

DaveV, not necessarily sleazer vs. perf. (but I see your point) I play more perfectionist, but every city must provide some sort of benefit at the time it is built. If I build in the middle of the pattern, I may not be able to take advantage of the gold till the city is size 2 or 3. That's a lot of turns not getting the science from the gold, and no road on the gold, both of which are critical to getting into monarchy fast. Especially if you have to crank out a settler. (I agree more important in MP vs SP)

JPK, I agree, but there is no rule that says you capital has to be your science city. And since the specials are layed out in bands, it usually means that there is a another 3 or 4 pattern to the west or east of your location. This will be close enough to your capital that corruption isn't a problem, or later in the game you can move your capital if it makes that much difference. And yes, if my capital is on gold, i would love the second city on a buffalo to crank out the settlers, since the capital will be unable to crank them out fast enough due to food constraints.

RAH

[DaveV]

ST - I guess it's the old sleazer vs. perfectionist debate. In extreme ICS, you can build four cities on or near each special in the pattern. Whether that's a better idea than a single city in the middle is a question much debated.

[patriot]

I am currently playing a game using Mathews strategy except using raging hordes. Overall my science is advancing fairly well (I think) but I have a couple of questions.

1. I lost 1 city to the hordes and another to an enemy civilization. I had 1 or 2 phalanx in these cities but they couldn't hold up to chariots and archers. Should I also spend money early buying a barracks and city walls for all/most of my cities?

2. You mentioned that you would probably trade for Republic around 1 AD. Would you also revolt to this government then? I am finding that my military/defense is hard to maintain in a republic. In short, when is it a good time to switch?

Thanks.

[jpk]

RAH, I usually play on a wet world. This yields more grasslands so some of the specials are hidden. Also I find that four special locations are often ill-suited for cities. For example, oceans (really hard to build a city on an ocean square) or mountains. Perhaps that is a peculiarity for 10,000 square maps.

Generally I hunt for a city location until about 3500 BC. By that time I usually know where I want my first two cities and the best location is settled first.

[rah]

jpk, Ahhhh. I see.
But in MP, If I can drop on gold. (especially on a small map) I can be in Monarchy by 3000. (unless I get warrior code and horse from huts) and the extra settlers that I can spew out because of the extra production from monarchy more than ofsets the less than perfect capital. And by then, I've uncovered more land and can determine a real tits, science city location. If I'm the first into monarchy, 9 out of 10 times, I'll be the the first to philo.

In SP, I probably would do what you're doing. A quick start is not required.

RAH

[Smash]

Rememeber Rah these SP games are all single production.You can build anywhere pretty much in 2x.1x sites are different and it can be annoying searching after you have gotten used to 2x.You don't really want your first city/cities on forests,hills or mountains in 1x.Not to start anyhow.

[Civ-wrecked]

patriot,
It's very cheap to buy back your city from the barbs. However, if you plan to go to Republic, and if the lost city is not a big city then you should camp a few diplos around that barb city and get NONE units for super cheap price. In many games, I have the entire empire defended by NONE unit under Republic/Democracy.
1/ I seldomly build city walls even though in Republic most of my cities are defended by a single unit. Against the barbs, they almost always give you a few turns to buy a city wall before it attacks. Against the AI, you should select and build a city nearest to the AI and on good defensive terrain as a target for them to attack. They would spend the next few thousand years alternating between killing themselves attacking that city and giving you tribute for the ceasefire.
2/ A good time to switch to Republic for me is any one of these conditions:
- getting MC to control happiness. Nowadays I think that this is a little too late to switch.
- cities are ready to build caravans for trading (instead of WoW building).
- having nice AI neighbours who probably won't attack for a while .

[geofelt]

A few thoughts:
I like to found the first city in a field of rivers. The potential is there for a good science city which is easier if it is the capitol. If there are some specials, then so much the better.
If I found a city on terrain with a defensive bonus like a river, then my defender is a phalanx. If not, then I defend with a horseman or other unit that can attack first.

[rah]

Smash I agree, that is why I said in SP I would probably do what he suggested.

But having said that, If there is a river dot square within reach of the gold, I would still build on the gold in a 1x1x game. Getting to monarchy is even more critical in 1x1x games to get the free support for three units and you can get away with weaker defense if your city is on a mountain.
And in 1x1x about the only way you can take advantage of gold early is to build on it so at least you get the one food for it.


RAH
And I did play 1x1x the no city challange recently and you're right, it was hard to get used to 1x1x again. But since I couldn't build a city, i was never tempted to build on a forest, hill or mountain.
But thanks for letting me clarify it.

Well, actually go OCC is the easiest way. City by the sea, farms and railroad.

Wonders:

HG
Shakespear theatre(must)
Chapel
Catedral
superhighways
colossus
obseratory
newton's college
library
unveristiy
SETI

You should be able to win easily

OH yeah, don't forget City Walls?

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The Drunken Pub

"The seeds of evil are the the same seeds of greatness so be evil and be great."

[Johannes Rebel]

Try 'Accelerated startup (2000 B.C.)' and continue to start new games until you get monarchy from start. That happens in about 5-10% of all new games starting in 2000 B.C.

[jpk]

Johannes Rebel:

Sure accelerated start may give you Monarchy from the start but I find the city sites are so bad I just can not tolerate it.

[rah]

Yeah, we tried it once in MP to see if it would speed up the game. hahahahhaha

Never again. Besides the city locations really sucking, the different civs started with different numbers of cities, units, techs etc, which were nowhere near even.

RAH

[Civ-wrecked]

A few days ago, I was given a regular-start game with Monarchy. The location was great too. "All right!!", I said and then jumped into the game, hoping to beat my AC landing record. A few turns after building a city, I noticed that it still had the Despotism production, not Monarchy production. Of course, since I already HAD Monarchy I could no longer research it ! So I quitted about 10 turns into the game . Apparently a bug.

[Paul]

Of course the game always starts you in despotism. So if you get monarchy as a starting advance you should immediately revolt to switch your government to monarchy. I assume you forgot to do that?

[SCG]

I finally figured out why I never noticed the 3 numbers before (where the 3rd # is the continent number). In the older versions (before 2.42), it doesn't exits In other words, the bug was introduced by one of the patches along the way.

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As your elected chieftain, I pledge to expand our tribe's power and influence so that we may become rulers of the region, and I, your warlord.

*sounds of applause and cheers*
*chants of SCG! SCG! SCG!*

[Ming]

That's right Paul... Rah and I have been doing that Nomad challange thing, and he "reminded" me that you can go into revolt even if you don't have a city yet. I had gotten Monarchy from a hut, but didn't revolt until I laid down my first city... DUH!!!!

And count me as another one that doesn't like the advanced starts... the AI just has NO clue what a good city location is

[Carolus Rex]

SCG,

I noticed that too! After installing Civ II on my laptop (no 2.42 patch yet) I wanted to explore the continent I was on in a game. No numbers!

Which leads me to believe that the designers wanted it to work that way??? It's an intended feature to make exploring a little easier???

Carolus