New Diplo 7 players game on the EURO map - who's interested ?

Robert Plomp · June 21, 2001, 07:53

I would like it very much to start a new 'eurodip' game.

Europe is the perfect map for a diplomacy game.
Who's interested in such a game for a long period on weekly or duo-weekly base ?

We'll find out the rules / play times etc. later.

CyberShy

ajbera · June 21, 2001, 16:16

I'd be interested.

One caveat, though: I haven't played MP Civ before, so you may have to suffer through some newbie questions and situations. If that's tolerable, then I'm game.

As far as I understand, diplo means no outright Nazi-style conquest. Under what circumstances are combat/war permissible? I'm not a warmonger, so this shouldn't be much of an issue, but I want to know when the use of force can be justified.

FYI, I have Verizon Infospeed DSL. I don't think this makes a difference, but I want to offer full disclosure so as to avoid any newbie screwups.

-Adam

The Capo · June 21, 2001, 20:16

Diplogames, diplogames, diplo-mofuggin-games...

Ajbera, I welcome you to the wild world of Diplogaming, please refrain from listening to most of the morons that populate these threads when they attempt to describe to you what a Diplogame is...

I could tell you but it just wouldn't be really apt at this time to go into it, lets just say if this game is played like HOTW is (not to brag, but its a good fuggin game) then you will be in for a great treat, and although I have yet to compete against Cybershy I'd love to play in this game.

So basically tell me what day it will be on, if its good I'm down, hell I'll even make you guys one kick ass fuggin mod to make it look all nice and European.

If I play put me down as either the Greeks, Italians or French, I dunno yet...

The Capo · June 21, 2001, 20:29

Alright look. A lot of people go around saying that in a Diplogame you can't do this, and you can't do that...

That's a load of horse sh*t.

A diplogame shouldn't have rules, a diplogame should have players who have an understanding. This doesn't necessarily mean that you can't be a total hard nosed warmonger, this also doesn't mean you can just go around fighting willy-nilly.

Basically a diplogame is where the status quo, or international community is a major component. If you really want a crash course in Diplogaming you should take a look at the three threads that comprise the History of the World Diplogame, which I consider to be the best diplogame to date.

The way the diplogame was played a year ago has changed drastically, so its almost a new thing now. I think that a European diplogame has plenty of promise, none that I can recall have ever finished so if we can get some dedicated people involved it would be good for the genre.

As it stands Cyber, do you have any plans for a specific playtime/day?

Zylka · June 21, 2001, 22:26

You read my mind, buddy

I'd love to play, as the Germans.

deity · June 22, 2001, 01:18

Brits please

USA Fri night would be good.
Saturday here.

Rasputin · June 22, 2001, 01:47

some call them diplo games, i call them the real thing , the way civ should be played, requires great civ development,, requires lots of diplomatic relations obviously , and requires some damn outright aggression at times...

I offer to sub for whoever when ever needed , i love these games

SmartFart · June 22, 2001, 02:22

Ajbera: basically,diplo game is a game like any other. There are some minor differences,but in general it's the same thing.
If you act like a Nazi-Germany,you'll find yourself fighting on several fronts and that's very thing what screwed Hitler's plans.

1st thing to do is to find yourself a trustworthy ally or two. Cooperation is vital. Nothing else is so much important. You said you've never played MP before. Difference is huge and I do mean HUGE. Humans are much more clever and dangerous. Don't fool yourself that you don't need strong army in diplogame. When it comes to war and sooner or later it will,you better be prepared.
I suggest you to play a few MP games,save every 4-5 turns and see how expirienced players runs their empires once when the game is over.

Cybershy: I'll take Russians.

My votes:

- deity
- x1x1
- no city bribe (units are ok)
- no switching wonders
- no switching caravans,peeking or any other sort of cheating
- one session per week. if someone cannot make it he is responsible to find himself a substitution,otherwise session is postponed.

SF

Robert Plomp · June 22, 2001, 03:49

Like some people mentioned in this thread already,
a good diplo game is not a matter of rules but a matter of balance.
As long as the European nations have a power balance they'll hate it when one nation attacks the other.

Imagine France invading Belgium, what do you think the German would do ? Or the English ? They would help the belgiums to prevent France to become big and strong.

For that reason the European map is one of the best maps to play a diplo game on. All countries are more or less connected to each other. And compare it with the 'real world', no continent has that many diplomatic theathies as the countries of Europe.

Of course there should be some rules in it.
Since much people have already applied I'm going to put them up for discussion.

- 1x1x Deity.
- No diplomatic contact before you made contact. (the alliances should 'grow' in the game and shouldn't already been made in advance)
- No city bribe

I like the rules as been suggested by SmartFart:
- no switching wonders
- no switching caravans, peeking or any other sort of cheating.

Of course a diplo game is all about fairness. It's so easy to peek at the map when the session is over. BUT the fun will be ways bigger when you don't.

- one of two sessions per weekend.
My suggestions are GMT (Greenwich main time = London)
Friday - Saturday: 23.00 - 03.00
Saturday - Sunday: 23.00 - 03.00

That's the australian early morning, european night and american evening.

So far applied:
ajbera: (Turkey, Spain, Greece, Italy)
The Capo: Greece / Italy
Zylka: Germany
deity: England
Rasputin: (Turkey, Spain, Greece, Italy)
SmartFart: Russia
CyberShy: (Turkey, Spain, Greece Italy)

I suggest the participating nations are: (From west to east)
England, Spain, Germany, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Russia.
This would spread the nations over the map.
I'll make it a scenario and send the scenario in advance to everyone.

Pherhaps we should alter the map more or less, but we can discuss that later.

Your thoughts please,

CyberShy

ajbera · June 22, 2001, 04:45

I'll be Italy, if no one objects.

What do you mean by no switching caravans? Do you mean no changing city destinations after they've been made?

Species8472 · June 22, 2001, 04:58

it looks like i am too late already since there are 7 players, but i would love to play in this diplo if someone backs out.

i prefer king above deity, i think it gives more possibilities to those who do not get the happy wonders.

i agree with all the other rules. i love 1x1x. the map also looks very cool.

well, if i can still be in, my contacts:
ICQ 15720485
email: wkerpershoek@hotmail.com

i can play any day during the week at the evening. i live in Europe, so GMT +1.

in the weekends i do not care, i can play whatever time.

Zylka · June 22, 2001, 15:31

Species, ICQ me. No point in leaving anyone out, I'm sure there's more than enough interested to get 2 eurodips going at once.

As for this one, I propose we have simul turns with turn based war until 1ad (no attacking on first contact). Playing with markus and smartfart, our game went incredibly fast and was near railroad in an hour and a half.

Agreed this should be 1x1x, and at least no city bribe.

I also propose wiping huts off the map. Ney, that's a must for Eurodip

Zylka · June 22, 2001, 15:33

Also, Markus has a cool graphics package for this, we should consider using it.

Zylka · June 22, 2001, 15:38

Oh my, Friday is upon us

Let's get started tonight, weekends seem to be best for everyone. Ajbera, Capo, Cybershy, Deity,SmartFart, Species, Ras, please contact me - 82578048

Zylka · June 22, 2001, 15:46

I also propose that either Greece or Turkey are dropped and France is included instead. Those two civs share a crappy piece of land as it is, best to give them more room and fill the gap in between Germany and Spain.

K ba

Ecthy · June 22, 2001, 16:43

I'm willing to play in case there's a sub needed

ICQ# 77849402

Rasputin · June 22, 2001, 18:29

my offer was to sub when a regular didnt appear, not to be the regular

This weekend i working all of it so not avaialble to sub, next weekend i am free, so if some one unavqaialble let me know and i will sub for them

Robert Plomp · June 22, 2001, 18:46

I suggest we use this week to set the game up as good as possible and start friday next.
Let's not make too much hassle with it, since that might result in mistakes etc.

I think the 'no huts' idea is great, that graphic package, is that the package with the nations flags ?

I agree more or less about turkey / greece, but on the other hand, then there are much nations in the west of Europe and just a few in the east. That would give the civs in the east a big advantage.

Thus if everyone can reply and leave preferred session times,
and their thoughts/ agreements on the rules then we can start friday next and leave the rest of the week open for map altering / whatever.

CyberShy

Rasputin · June 22, 2001, 19:30

as a sub only ... my votes are

1x1x deity
no bribing whatsoever
no wonder sharing

not sure what caravan switching is ... so please explain !!

I think that leaving russia with out a turkey is just too open...

SmartFart · June 23, 2001, 02:12

i will play as i said. how about sunday?

SmartFart · June 23, 2001, 02:27

Switching caravans: if you give a caravan to your ally or vice versa,you have instant trade route because you don't have to move it across the world.

markusf · June 23, 2001, 11:12

damn i forgot to sign up... Forums wheren't working for a while

The Capo · June 23, 2001, 11:12

Not to toot my own horn, but I've been in plenty of Diplogames and at least three European Diplogames.

I know my sh*t, so I don't care what tribe I get, let everyone else decide and then I'll shoot in, there are a few things that I disagree with thus far (I'll admit I haven't really even read anything). The main one is the choices, EVERYONE should decide what tribe they want, no matter what; if we get stuck with Denmark, The Netherlands, Germany, Belgium, France, Luxembourg and Norway, so be it.

The most important thing is that everyone is comfortable and interested, so I disagree with choosing tribes first and players second. I am very familiar with European culture so I can play as any nation.

As far as this map goes, I'm sorry but I've played on it numerous times and its horrific, if we are playing this NEXT Friday, which is the 30th, then I will make a map and a modpack that you clowns will cream your pants over. For the map we have a few questions, like should we make the Rhine and Danube navigable?

I'd also like this to be somewhat different than a normal European diplogame, so I am going to list some tribes that people hardly ever choose in case anyone wants to switch...

-Poland
-Sweden
-Portugal
-Switzerland
-Austria
-Ukraine
-Finland
-Scotland
-Ireland
-Brussels

So whatever, I'd like this to be really unique and fun, so sue me if I try too hard.

Anyway if you wanna see what a diplogame under my tutelage is capable of, check out www.geocities.com/history_of_the_world

Believe me, you are in good hands...

The Capo · June 23, 2001, 11:22

I wouldn't be against letting someone else make the modpack, but I'd really like to do it, and promise an awesome job.

As far as the settings go, I'll make a map and send it out to everyone so everyone can say "Yeah, that's good."

But the settings, definitely 1x1x, I think roads should be moved up to 1/4, and ships should each have at least 1 more movement rate.

Science rate should be lowered so we aren't nuking eachother in 1200 ad. I think we should consider taking out SDI like we did in HOTW.

It should be either on King or Emperor, Deity is just too ridiculous for an MP game.

Those are my suggestions, again, I've been in like seven diplogames and so far this is what I think would be the best for everyone.

As far as tribes I'd like to play; Italy (because I am Italian), Spain, France, and Greece... maybe Sweden...

ajbera · June 23, 2001, 14:45

Alrighty, another newbie question: what's Wonder sharing/switching?

1x1x and deity are fine (though I usually play single-player at a lower level) - if I prove to be a poor leader, so be it. No city bribes is okay by me (I always disliked that ability) but I see nothing wrong with unit bribes. However, I'll abide by the majority decision.

As for tribes, my first choice was Italian (I also have Roman blood in my veins) followed by Spain, Turkey and Greece. If Capo makes a special map I'd be interested in playing the Swiss.

Is Friday cemented as the play day, or is that subject to change? I can play on Friday, but I'll have to bow out of an existing roleplaying group that meets Friday night, and that may tick some people off. Honestly, Saturday is optimal for me, but I can be flexible, because I am very interested in playing Diplo-civ. However, with so many eager subs available, it doesn't seem problematic if a player has to miss a session or two.

Looks like I'll have to go to Mirabilis and get ICQ. It's probably indispensible for diplo-gaming.

I live in New York, so what hours are we talking about? 6:00 to 10:00 (that's good). And (approximately) how many weeks/months does a game last?

-Adam

Robert Plomp · June 23, 2001, 19:07

The Capo,

if you can create a great modpack, then I'm sure that would be better ! I don't have enough experience with create a modpack, but if you want to do it.......

I'm not sure about the Rhine and the Dunabe,
I think at least they should be able to cross by land units as well, but that wouldn't look that good on the map. (you can create a chain of small lakes, in case you didn't know)

I pretty like your idea to chose a tribe yourself !
Pherhaps that's better indeed then first chose the tribes and then the players ! But I think these tribes should have their original starting locations. (their capital)

In that case I would like it to play The Netherlands. (I'm dutch

)

If you make a map, can you make it so that Sweden and Norway are on it, north Africa, gulf of Gibraltar. Pherhaps not too much Russia on it. (till the east side of the Black Sea pherhaps ?)
Be sure you make Great Brittain not too small, so the english have a good change to survive, and no passage from Denmark to Sweden, so the british have a good change to arive in Sweden before the european do. No passage over the Gulf of Gibraltar as well I suggest.

Quote:

I think roads should be moved up to 1/4, and ships should each have at least 1 more movement rate.

I think not much will be done by ships, but I don't care if movement is +1.
I don't really care about road movement 1/4 as well, thus if majority says 'yeah' that's fine with me.

Quote:

Science rate should be lowered so we aren't nuking eachother in 1200 ad

Would we ? But that's fine with me as well.

Quote:

I think we should consider taking out SDI

Hmmmmm, but then we should be very serious on someone that actually uses nukes ! We can leave SDI in the game but make them very expensive as well............

Quote:

It should be either on King or Emperor, Deity is just too ridiculous for an MP game

In fact I like the 'hard start' deity games give.
I think that if we lower it to King or Emperor it might be to easy to expand quickly.....

Quote:

what's Wonder sharing/switching?

You can 'give' the city that holds all your wonders to your allie before your turn is over. Then your allie will receive all the benefits of the wonders that are in the city (ies) you gave to him. If he then gives the city back before his turn ends you'll receive the benefits etc. etc. etc.

Quote:

but I see nothing wrong with unit bribes

I think majority will agree on unit bribing to be accepted.

Quote:

Is Friday cemented as the play day, or is that subject to change

Saturday is ok with me as well. I prefer not to play on sunday / monday night since I have to work on mondays.

Quote:

I can play on Friday, but I'll have to bow out of an existing roleplaying group that meets Friday night

Something else I remembered, pherhaps much of us will leave for a vacation as well........... I won't be able to play 2 or 3 times in August, in example.
Pherhaps we should make a good schedule in advance, and play sometimes on saturday as well to improve gamespeed.

Quote:

I live in New York, so what hours are we talking about? 6:00 to 10:00

I thought New York was 5 hours behind GMT......... that would make it 7 to 11, but I'm not sure.

Quote:

And (approximately) how many weeks/months does a game last?

Hard question, I think we need around 10 sessions, thus 5 weeks of we play twice a week, and otherwise.......... long. (depends very much on connection speed)

CyberShy

deity · June 23, 2001, 19:39

Definitely get Capo to do the modpak. The map Elendil used in the Millenium game was great along with Markus graphics etc. So Capo could refine this perhaps?

My vote:
* Deity or Emperor Level
* No huts
* No SDI
* Increased ship movement - we doubled it in the Millenium game, I think.
* No city bribe but Unit bribe is OK
* No barbs
* Turn-based with 5 min timer (maybe simul till 1AD but every time you start a simul session you get a free build in each city)
* No rules on war - we must all be prepared for that

Must have strict rules on no-shows and always have subs ready to go.

I might be wrong, and it shouldn't really matter, but I think there is a broad range of experience nominating for this game.

Zylka · June 23, 2001, 22:58

I really think this should be the "classic" European layout with Spain, France, England, Germany, Russia, and Greece (Or any other state in/around the Balkans). There is maximum geographic balance from the beginning, as close to equality of opportunity as we can get. Markus can take Ras' spot, and would like France. He will supply us with a great graphics mod as well, the one with the flags

Zylka · June 23, 2001, 23:03

...unless Capo is willing and able to make a graphics mod

deity · June 24, 2001, 00:08

I think species is ahead of Markus for a spot.

Be good if we get them both though.

Cybershy, we need to definite commitments to lock in the players. I'm definitely OK for USA Fri OR Sat ights - Sat morning OR Sun morning (NOT both)

I'd like to see the map asap!
So pull your finger out Capo

We must start this week or we'll lose momentum. If people go on hols we keep playing and organise subs, eh?
The more I think about it I reckon it should be turn-based with 5 min timer till late game or mutually agreed when war breaks out (to extend the timer for a while)
Simul has lots of problems really and lag can be really bad with Aussie players moving at same time as everyone else. The host machine is really dealing with a lot of stuff....