Differentiating between economic systems and political systems.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


I don't call a more equitable distribution of wealth decreasing freedom. Fascism was rabidly anti-communist, anti-socialist and pro-business. Until the crisis of war loomed overhead, every Fascist state was as capitalist as any of the Western Powers.

i concur
uncle funk, there was a whole book written on that subject recently by dworkin - equality, freedom, hapiness

[Juggernaut]

la russo: and mein kampf is a book about the nazism subject. a little harsh maybe, but just because someone has an opinion about something doesn´t mean his right:

KH: 1. hitler and stalin were quite close in some matters. both wanted a strong, fascistic state. the things that separated them were the race biology and that hitler were more in the middle, economically.

2. "equitable distribution of wealth" isn´t everything communism is about. you can´t eg. start you own business if a majority likes the idea. a majority has to like the idea whole the time. it makes 50% of the people decide over 40%. don´t you think people know better what they want for themselves than the state do?

and subsidies to unemployed aint good, they makes people passive.

[KrazyHorse]

You obviously think that the only possible source of oppression is the government. Your entire starting a business comment demonstrates a lack of imagination. The idea of starting a business in a collectivist economy would be an anachronism. That's like saying that the move to the capitalist system from a feudal system decreases freedom because you no longer have the opportunity to become a great landlord and collect seigneurial services.

[Juggernaut]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You obviously think that the only possible source of oppression is the government..

i´m not saying oppression can only come from a government. but the bigger government, the less the people gets to decide for themselves. and that´s never good. so government is a constant oppression.

Your entire starting a business comment demonstrates a lack of imagination .

well, is there anything wrong in logic of the comment? if so, enlighten me.

[splangy]

but all this would be to complicated for the average player and we can sit here all day arguing over what goverments did what and how, whats wrong with the current system? besides, its not gonna be in becouse they already anounced that they only major change is -fundy +nationalism. sorry to say it but your kicking a dead horse.

[LaRusso]

Originally posted by uncle_funk
la russo: and mein kampf is a book about the nazism subject. a little harsh maybe, but just because someone has an opinion about something doesn´t mean his right:

incredible. did you ever hear about dworkin. he's a liberal philosopher of law and no. 1 world name in law and society studies. he teaches at harvard. i do not remember hitler ever did....

KH: 1. hitler and stalin were quite close in some matters. both wanted a strong, fascistic state. the things that separated them were the race biology and that hitler were more in the middle, economically.

ha-ha-ha
this is simply incredible. i did know that you scandinavians do hate russians but this is too much. fascist stalin? this discussion is really drifting into absurd...

it would also be interesting to define 'left', 'middle' and 'right' in economy. i mean, people struggle but you obviously managed

2. "equitable distribution of wealth" isn´t everything communism is about. you can´t eg. start you own business if a majority likes the idea. a majority has to like the idea whole the time. it makes 50% of the people decide over 40%. don´t you think people know better what they want for themselves than the state do?

exactly. now simply deconstruct your welfare state and every man for himself. let's abolish taxes, let's live free, happy and without any dictate!
what a sad example of us propaganda. every dissent in the us is effectively crushed and the only way you can popularize an idea is to pour billions behind it. yet it is portrayed as a land of the free, brave, etc.

and subsidies to unemployed aint good, they makes people passive.

well, it would be better to starve them off and improve the 'efficiency of the society'. also, you may draw a bit more far-sighted policies from it and sterilize crippled and retarded, because they might breed and create more inefficiency? does this pattern sound familiar?

[Juggernaut]

i did know that you scandinavians do hate russians but this is too much. fascist stalin?

1. i do not hate russians. and i don´t know anyone who does either. don´t believe everything you hear
2. someone who brainwashes people and force them to think and act in a certain way is always a fascist.

incredible. did you ever hear about dworkin. he's a liberal philosopher of law and no. 1 world name in law and society studies. he teaches at harvard. i do not remember hitler ever did....

ok, "..equality" wasn´t something you expect to find in the title of a liberal book. maybe it´s insightful, maybe not. but you can´t just say "but he thinks that way, and therefore it´s right", in a debate.

let's abolish taxes

never said that. taxes should still exist to provide social welfare for extreme cases, miltary, law and police, hospitals, public education, health care and subsidies for big families etc

well, it would be better to starve them off and improve the 'efficiency of the society'

no, it would be better to cut taxes so corporations can afford to hire more.

also, you may draw a bit more far-sighted policies from it and sterilize crippled and retarded, because they might breed and create more inefficiency? does this pattern sound familiar?

those fall in under extreme cases and should live through the social welfare, unless they have a big, wealthy falimly who can support them.

[JamesJKirk]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You obviously think that the only possible source of oppression is the government. Your entire starting a business comment demonstrates a lack of imagination. The idea of starting a business in a collectivist economy would be an anachronism. That's like saying that the move to the capitalist system from a feudal system decreases freedom because you no longer have the opportunity to become a great landlord and collect seigneurial services.

lol, I don't think anyone could have said that better!

uncle, you can try to say anything and make it much easier by creating definitions for the words you use (ie fascist). So corporations brainwash people into buying goods and acting certain ways via advertising and television in general, are they fascists? Democracies (and al governments) brainwash people into thinking and acting as though their system is best? So are democracies fascist?

I will agree with you that in practice, Stalin's USSR and Nazi Germany were somewhat similar. One party systems where the state controls much of people's lives. Also in both cases, the state had much control over the economy, but it was more direct in the USSR.


Why does it not make sense for a liberal to talk about equality? What is this?
Why should people (actually entities entitled to rights) have to pay taxes, but not corporations (non entities with no inherent rights) Conducting and attracting business isn't as simple as abolishing corporate taxes, sorry to say. Tax breaks help, but there are a variety of factors that come into play. (I'm dealing with this type of stuff in my job right now, so I would know)

[Juggernaut]

So corporations brainwash people into buying goods and acting certain ways via advertising and television in general, are they fascists?

sorry to say, but to compare actors, rivalring on the same market which is only is positive for the clients, to fascism is just completely out of the blue. it´s really the opposite. remember, you don´t have to buy anything if you don´t want to. without a demand, there´s no market for anything.

bransch-monopoly is never good, it´s one of the most negative sides of a left-wing government. although, i do believe that ie. liquor and drugs salesment should be handled by the government.

[ancient]

fine then when you use different micxes it raises happieness

United states is not a democracy no matter how much people say it is. Its a republic/capitialist china would be a socialist/nationalist govterment..
when you combine democracy/communism it should make people happpy! that gives you the most freedoms a person could ever have!

[Juggernaut]

"communism will never work cause people like to own stuff" - Frank Zappa.

[N35t0r]

OK, why not define what you are arguing about first?

-Stalinism is not the same as Socialism.

When i refer to Stalinism, i mean the economic/political system of the Soviet Union (what uncle_funk says), while socialism is more o less what Marx wanted.(KH, the rest) Both could be called communist, though i think that the latter is real communism.

I agree that we should have SE, with different combinations resulting in different benefits, whatever.

Oh, and i do agree that both Stalin and Hitler were Fascist dictators.


A socialist country could be democratic, and if it is managed correctly it could be better off than a capitalist one...

but if capitalism worked correctly, it would be closely behind in equality, but it would still have 'richer' people...

The only reason why now capitalism is 'standard' and communism is seen as 'evil' by some people, and generally not wanted is because it arose later than the capitalist system, and the latter one had a head start of ca. 500 years to establish itself as the predominant economic system, so that when communism came by, the only way to put it into practice quickly was to stage revolutions.

These revolutions occured in countries with a long history of opression, aand totalitarism, so the political system which rose with the new capitalist one was what the people were used to.

[Juggernaut]

capitalism is the optimal form of democracy and will always work better than socialism in this matter. freedom to choose.

[KrazyHorse]

Of course! The funkster's got it. Capitalism is what happens when you project democracy through a lens.

[Juggernaut]

*uncle_funk thinks should KrazyHorse should put up some real arguments and just not some hollow dirt-throwing*

believe me, i´ve been like you. you have to break loose from your hate and see both sides of the coin. things aren´t just as simply as you think. the dark spot in the banana might just not be that poisonous spider after all.

[KrazyHorse]

Where's the hatred? I was agreeing with you. Capitalism is the optical form of democracy.

[Juggernaut]

Oh, you have changed your mind? Cool.

[N35t0r]

Democracy does not mean freedom.

it means electing your leaders.

i don't know why that an't be done with socialism.

and Socialism doesn't necesarily mean that you have no freedom, you could be given basic goods, and then x amount of credits to buy other things, only these would be decided by the gov't. a less productive, lazy worker would get less for letting the system down, and vice-versa, which would be a good way to encourage working hard...

[Juggernaut]

because in socialism other people tell you what do with your money, and what´s best for you. don´t you think you can decide that for your self?

[ancient]

too far off topic now.. this isnt a communist capitalist or stalinist, socialist, maoist, or anything post, its about whether you think having the systrem with combinations that is still simple to use (like mine) would be good fro gameplay..

[Juggernaut]

Asch, this thread is dead anyway. =)

[ancient]

well you posted in it the most, your very stuborn, and i made it weeks ago..

[Juggernaut]

i know, i killed it.

[Lou Wigman]

This thread was supposed to be about differentiating between economic and political systems. In reality, as is well demonstrated by the ranting here the two are closely linked. However let us try to get some sanity back into this discussion.

Economically speaking communism is a system whereby society as a whole owns the means of production. In the Soviet version this means the 'State'. Whilst I haven't read Karl Marx book 'Das Capital'. I am not sure that this is what he intended.

Fascism, on the other hand, is an economic system where the State is run for the benefit of big business. Economically speaking it is really little different from most Western democracies in which the same objective rightly or wrongly is predominant.

As I have already said, each ECONOMIC system also carries a lot of POLITICAL baggage. Is it possible to separate the two ? I think not.

[Eternal]

There should be a sliding scale of personal and economic freedoms. The position of the state as indicated on this scale will bring about certain results, good and bad. You shouldn't only be able to choose from a list of government or economic types. However certain limits should be set so that you can't go too far one way or the other without advances (the importance of communication as a tool of freedom and oppression).

[TechWins]

i know, i killed it.

You're a loser. What you need to do is start to post something worth people's time or don't post at all. Stop going around to good threads or any thread for that matter and messing them up with your lame and uninformed comments.

[Juggernaut]

Cute.

[TechWins]

Cute.

I'll say this again, please stop hitting on me.

[Juggernaut]

Since you obviously seem to believe I´m serious, I just have to say: Get a life, get some humour, get some brilliant ideas like me - and everything will be just fine. Besides, noone should ever call anyone loser here. I mean, we´re all sweaty boys who´s discussing a game that hasn´t even come out yet! Over and out.