Medium Map landing: 935 AD (Deity,MGE)

[Ribannah]

I chose Solo's excellent start after trying in vain to match his 7 techs - the most I ever got was 5 on bad terrain! The game was very different though, I did not dare to count on finding a string of NON-Settlers. The purples were not the key civ for me either until later in te game, and only the Sioux were willing to part with a few coins in exchange for all our tech gifts. On the upside, we got a fair amount of tech from huts.
Very weird that, in the end, our spaceship was launched in the same year as Solo's!
But we arrived 21 years earlier, eager to claim the new world

==============================
AC: 935

Monarchy: -3650
Republic: -2250
Democracy: -25

Marco Polo: -1350
Colossus: -700
Oracle: -525
Copernicus: -350
Michelangelo: 120
Newton: 420
Hoover: 640
SETI: 780
Apollo: 860
Darwin: 860

Trade: -4000
Construction: -3450
Sanitation: 60
Refrigeration: -

Automobile: 520
Computers: 740
Space Flight: 840
==============================

-4000 Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws, Currency, Masonry, Trade
----- Going east and south
-3950 N-Horsemen(h), detects river
-3900 N-Horsemen(h)
-3850 N-Archers(h), WASHINGTON at (67,13), NEW YORK at (75,17)
-3700 N-Settlers(h) , 50(h)
-3650 Monarchy[10], MONARCHY
-3450 Construction
----- Sioux, traded for Warrior Code, Ally (not the key civ, alas!)
-3300 Settlers(Wa,NY), N-Horsemen(h)
-3200 BOSTON at (67,21), Iron Working(h)

The idea was to develop the first three cities equally. Also, there are straightforward trade-bonus paths between them. So all caravans go to the super science capital.

-3100 50(h), Germans, Peace, no Ally
-3050 Bridge Building
-3000 Temple(Bo)
-2900 N-Horsemen(h)
-2850 Washington=2
-2800 Boston=2, Road(Wa,Bo) complete
-2750 Road(Wa,NY) complete, Writing(h), traded for Mysticism(S)
-2700 Food(Wa), 50(h)
-2600 Beads(NY), 50(h)
-2550 Temple(Wa), 3 techs->G
-2500 Beads(NY) to Washington (d,24)
-2450 Temple(NY), Literacy, The Republic(h)
-2350 Settlers(Bo) -> Boston=1, Washington=3, New York=2
-2300 Boston=2, Revolution
-2250 REPUBLIC
-2150 Barb Horsemen
-2100 Banking, 50(h)
-1950 Hides(Bo) to Washington (26), Barb Horsemen(h)-killed
-1900 Mathematics
-1700 Salt(NY) to Washington (20)
-1650 Astronomy(h)
-1600 Boston=3
-1550 Feudalism, Silver(Bo) to Washington (30)
-1350 MARCO POLO'S EMBASSY(Wa)
----- Russians, traded for Map Making, Peace, no Ally
----- Egyptians, Ally
----- Carthagians, Peace, Ally - they are the key civ!!! - gifting all tech
----- Traded for Philosophy(G)
-1300 Medicine
-1250 Babylonians, traded for Seafaring, Ally
-1200 Silk(NY) to Washington (20),
-1150 Coal(Bo) to Washington (30)
-1100 Trireme(NY)
-1000 Boston=4, University(h), 50(h)

The first three cities are now ready to grow. Science is put on hold while the economy is created (a sad necessity with MGE). Settlers will found 5 more cities, after which no more of them will be made (we wait for Engineering, no plans to build Leo!).

-975 Marketplace(Wa), We Love (Wa,NY,Bo), PHILADELPHIA at (80,26)
-950 Washington=4, New York=4, Boston=5
-925 Marketplace(Bo), Washinton=5, New York=5, Boston=6, 100<-S
-900 Marketplace(NY), Washington=6, New York=6, Boston=7, Egyptians: PYRAMIDS
-875 Harbor(Ph), Washington=7, New York=7, We Love ends(Bo)
----- ATLANTA at (73,31), 50(h)
-850 We Love ends(Wa,NY)
-825 Bank(Wa)
-775 50(h)
-750 Bank(NY), Temple(At)
-725 Bank(Bo)
-700 COLOSSUS(Wa), Harbor(NY)
-675 Harbor(Bo), Chemistry(h)
-650 Settlers(Ph)
-600 Temple(Ph)
-550 Courthouse(NY,Bo), CHICAGO at (62,32)
-525 THE ORACLE(Wa) , We Love(Wa)

Still expanding ....

-500 Aqueduct(NY,Bo), Settlers(At), Harbor(Ch), Washington=8, New York=8, We Love(NY,Bo)
-475 Aqueduct(Wa), Wahington=9, New York=9, Boston=8, Atlanta=2
----- Navigation(h), 2 Barb Legions
-450 Temple(Ch), Washington=10, New York=10, Boston=9
-425 Washington=11, New York=11, Boston=10, Atlanta=2
-400 Caravel(Ph), We Love ends(Wa,NY,Bo)
----- SAN FRANSISCO at (59,25), Barb Horsemen/Leader
-375 Barb Horsemen, disbanded Trireme
-350 COPERNICUS' OBSERVATORY(Wa), Library(NY,Bo), Harbor(SF)
-325 Economics, Boston=11, Egyptians: GREAT LIBRARY
-300 Stock Exchange(Wa), Theory of Gravity(h)
-275 Stock Exchange(NY), Temple(SF), traded for The Wheel(G)
-250 Stock Exchange(Bo), Settlers(At)
-225 Library(Wa), University(NY)
-200 Harbor(At), Carthagians: HANGING GARDENS

With the universities completed, research is finally resumed. A good thing that there were some huts with learned hermits!

-175 University(Wa,Bo), Physics, Copper(Ph) to Washington (d,126)
----- Traded for Chivalry(C)
-125 Magnetism
-100 Engineering, Chicago=3
-75 Atomic Theory(h), Beads(Ph) to Washington (63)
-50 Invention, Philadelphia=3
-25 Democracy, DEMOCRACY, New York=12, 50(h)
1 We Love(Wa,Bo), disbanded Caravel

Decision time: are we going to build Mike's and grow beyond size 12, or will we skip as
many techs as possible? It is to be the former.

20 Gunpowder, Washington=12, Boston=12, Salt(Ph) to Washington (69)
40 Galleon(NY), Courthouse(Ph), We Love(Ph), We Love ends(Wa,Bo)
60 Explosives, Philadelphia=4, traded for Sanitation and Monotheism(B), 50->B
80 Engineers(Ch), Philadelphia=5
100 Steam Engine, We Love ends(Ph)
120 MICHELANGELO'S CHAPEL(Wa), We Love(Wa)
140 Engineers(Bo,Ph) -> Bo=11, Ph=4; SF=4, At=3, Railroad, We Love(Ph)
----- BUFFALO at (69,43) Copper(Ch) to Wa (d,50), Spice(SF) to Wa (22)

The last of the supporting cities. We are also ready to grow again, Philly is fortunate to participate.

160 Sewer System(Wa), Engineers(NY), Wa=13, NY=11, Ph=5, We Love(NY,Bo)
180 Sewer System(Bo), Marketplace(Ph), Wa=14, NY=12, Bo=12, Ph=6
200 Coal(Wa), Sewer System(NY), Silk(At), Wa=15, NY=13, Bo=13, Ph=7
220 Aqueduct(Ph), Coal(Ch,SF), Metallurgy, Wa=16, NY=14, Bo=14, Ph=8
240 Wa=17, NY=15, Bo=15, Ph=9
260 Engineers(Bo), Library(Ph), Industrialization, Wa=18, NY=16, Bo=14
----- Silk(At) to Wa (d,172), Coal(SF) to Wa (25), Coal(Ch) to Wa (29)
280 We Love ends (Wa,NY,Bo,Ph)

Ecomony time again, but no need to stop teching entirely.

300 Factory (Wa,Bo), Chicago=4
320 Bank(Ph), The Corporation
360 Electricity, Coal(At) to Wa (58), 50(h)
400 Stock Exchange(Ph), Refining, Oil(Ch) to Wa (44), Hides(SF) to Wa (37)
420 ISAAC NEWTON'S COLLEGE(Wa), Courthouse(Ch,SF), We Love (Wa,Ch,SF)
440 Factory(NY), Wa=19, Ch=5, SF=5, We Love ends(SF)
460 Steel, Wa=20, Ch=6, We Love(NY,Bo,Ph,SF)
480 Marketplace(At), Combustion, NY=17, Ph=10, Ch=7, SF=6, Bu=2,
----- We Love(At), Cloth(At) to Wa (93), Spice(Bu) to Wa (119)
500 Aqueduct(Ch), Library(SF), NY=18, Ph=11, Ch=8, SF=7, At=5
520 Library(At), Automobile, NY=19, PH=12, Bo=15, Ch=9, SF=8, At=6

From here on it's a race against time, a new tech coming basically each turn.

540 Superhighways(Wa,NY), Bo=16, Ch=10, At=7, Silver (NY) to Washington (d,274)
560 Superhighways(Bo), Sewer System(Ph), Aqueduct(At,SF), Library(Ch),
----- Conscription, Bo=17, Ph=13, Ch=11, SF=9, At=8
580 Electronics, Bo=18, Ph=14, Ch=12, SF=10, At=9, Oil(Bo) to Washington (d,532)
600 Factory(Ph), Sewer System(Ch), Bank(At), Mass Production
----- Ph=15, SF=11, Oil(Bu) to Washington (d,768)
620 Nuclear Fission, We Love ends(Bo,Ph,Ch,SF,At), Hides(Bo) to Washington (158)
640 HOOVER DAM(Wa), Bank(Ch), Copper(Bu), Nuclear Power, Leadership , We Love(Bo)
660 Factory(At), The Laser, Washington=21, Boston=19
----- Traded for Horseback Riding(G)
680 Courthouse(Bu), Tactics, Bu=3, We Love(Bu), We Love ends(Bo)
----- Copper(Bu) to Washington (d,510), traded for Pottery(E), Gold(Bo) to Washington(162)
700 Factory(Ch,SF), Machine Tools, Buffalo=4
720 Marketplace(Bu), Miniaturization, Chicago=14, Buffalo=5
----- Oil(Bo) to Washington (162), 250<-S
740 Offshore Platform(NY,Ch,SF,At), Computers, Bu=6, Oil(At) to Wa (213)
----- Oil(Ph) to Wa (223), Gold(Ph) to Wa (223)
760 Factory(Bu), Offshore Platform(Ph), Flight, Buffalo=7, 150<-S
780 SETI PROGRAM(Wa), Radio, We Love ends(Bu)
----- Traded for Polytheism(B), Russians revolt to Despotism
800 Advanced Flight
820 Rocketry
840 Space Flight
860 APOLLO PROGRAM(NY), DARWIN'S VOYAGE(Bu) ->
----- Plastics, Superconductor; Fusion Power

Neat trick, we can now sell all universities and libraries. With several cities already building wonders and switching now, and freight standing by, AC is right around the corner.

880 M#01-02, C#01, S#01-5
900 S#06-13
920 M#03, C#02-06, S#14-15, LAUNCH 15-3-3-1-1-1
935 ALPHA CENTAURI

[La Fayette]

(this is a portrait of La Fayette, #1 to say WOW)



(this is a portrait of samson, solo and ribannah discussing about landing in 500AD on a big map ... without hut tipping, of course)

[solo]

Wow! A great result and some different, but very successful ideas. I'll have to print out and study this log. Believe me, it took a long time finding such a good start, but once found, I was happy to share it.

You may want to try the start I used in my 776 game, which is the best I've found so far on a medium map. You may also want to try samson's ideal small map start in the "another early" thread. I just managed 336 AD using that. You might be able to get Space Flight with it in BC years!

Many huts on hills increased the chances of nomads, but good hut technology can really make up for a slower start, too, saving many turns of research. You also made great use out of Marco Polo's.

It's the ease with which you built so many wonders and such a fast ship that I want to figure out! Nice going!

[samson]

Hey, Ribannah, glad you could join in the early landing fun. Congrats on this game, nice job.

I studied this in some detail and it definitely made me rethink some of my ideas. The growth strategy both you and Solo used does seem appopriate in this situation: medium map and an SSC site that can't get you there by itself. Amazed at all the techs you tipped from huts, but hey, that's one of the advantages of playing on a medium map. And like Solo, I'm astonished at all the stuff you built.

[Ecthy]

well done

I never make it to AC before 1850.... just managed to get my spaceship built in 1844.... could have made it to AC by 1860 (16 turns flight)... NO, I had to improve it.... launched in 1846 with 18 years flight time, thus making it arrive by 1864... the carthaginians arrived in 1862. shoot me.

[Scouse Gits]

Great game Ribannah!

Interesting to see you built Marco Polo. Was it worth the four caravans?

--------------

SG(2)

[Scouse Gits]

Really well done - great game ...

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Great game Ribannah!

Interesting to see you built Marco Polo. Was it worth the four caravans?

--------------

SG(2)

Thanks
Yes, I think it was. Not only did it get me several techs in trade right away, but it also lowered by beaker requirements when I pushed the Carthagians to the front of the tech race. It could have taken me a long time to find them, or to wait for the purples to become key! And later in the game, by monitoring the AI's advance and picking my research accordingly, I could trade for several more techs, too. With a little more luck I could have traded for a few more, twice did they discover a tech I wanted to trade on the same turn as I did.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by solo
You may want to try the start I used in my 776 game, which is the best I've found so far on a medium map.

Solo, I'd love to try that map, could you provide a link?

[solo]

Ribannah,

It can be downloaded from that thread, but I will try to provide it again here just for you!

I've had a chance to go over the log of your game some, and really like the way you are able to build up such a strong economy quickly. I would be interested if you could provide a little more info about your game, namely:

Your settings for taxes, science and luxuries at various stages of the game, and the amount of gold per turn taxes were bringing in at these times. Estimates are good enough, but I would appreciate anything you are willing to provide here.

Also, if I counted correctly, you got 8 free techs from huts, which is only a few above average on a medium map. However, Marco Polo's allowed you to trade for an additional 11 techs. Getting 19 instant techs in the first half of the game allowed you to build up your economy while still acquiring techs at a decent pace. By the second half of the game, when techs from huts and the AI were no longer dependable, you had your science developed well enough to take over research at a tech per turn pace! In addition, you had an economic powerhouse! A very well thought out and executed strategy!

I also like using embassies, but usually use exploring diplomats to set them up. I've had that happen much too often, too, where the AI & I discover techs on the same turn! They are only good for so many during a game, and it's a shame to have one or two opportunities wasted in this way. Another irritation is when they study things off the tech path towards Space Flight, especially things like Communism when you have MP or Theology when you have Oracle!

So far we have 3 distinctly different, yet viable methods of early arrivals:

1) samson, with the pure science bare bones approach. No one learns the tech tree faster!

2) My system using more growth and focusing on vigorous trade.

3) Your economic growth, used to finance later research and everything else you care to buy.

Both samson and I are coming up short economically in the games with pre-500 AD landings, so it would be interesting for you to give his small map start a try, too. I suspect that the economy can not develop fast enough in the time available, but you're mastery in this area may prove this supposition wrong.

I would like to try a game focusing on economics, as you did in this game and most others, to get some experience with this style of play, so feel free to offer any advice.

By the way, were you able to locate a copy of 2.42?

solo

[samson]

A comparison of Solo's and Ribannah's detailed logs for this start revealed some interesting data which I thought I would post.

Total Production
Solo: 8970 shields
Ribannah: 16560 shields

Worker Years
Solo: 5925
Ribannah: 4937

Production per Worker Year
Solo: 1.51
Ribannah: 3.35

In other words, Solo averaged 1.5 shields per worker per year over the course of the game while Ribannah averaged more than twice that much. Part of this comes from the fact that Ribannah built factories and Hoover Dam in the late game. But when Ribannah's late game production is discounted to remove the factory/HD bonus, she still averaged 2.6 shields per worker per year.

Yet despite this seeming disparity in productivity, both players launched spaceships in the same year. Ribannah's faster ship landed 21 years earlier but this is only, in effect, 1.05 turns earlier. Since both accomplished the same task in virtually the same time, it would seem that Ribannah's higher production rate is balanced by Solo's more focused efficiency. Perhaps somewhere between these two data points lies a strategy which could produce an earlier launch.

[solo]

samson,

Interesting analysis, but you have to consider that for some reason it is very important for Ribannah's delicate ego to beat me in games with comparable starts. So I find myself deliberately holding back just enough in my production to allow this. Please adjust your equations and findings, accordingly.

solo

[samson]

I've always thought you were a bit of an "overbuilder", Solo, but Ribannah makes your game look positively skeletal. I probably need to try this one, and then analyze my own stats.

Seriously, I didn't mean to offend either of you with this comparison. I tried to map out each of your games and see how you arrived at almost identical outcomes by such different routes. I was trying to support my "limit" theory. To discover such a difference in per capita production was startling. But it is probably attributable to infrastructure: more banks, more stock exchanges, more income, more expense. In essence, R built a lot more stuff than you did, but it didn't advance the launch date.

In constrast, my "bare bones" approach would probably fail to even reach that date - given the lack of rail bonus and higher cost of research. Additional emphasis on trade (foreign in your game, domestic in R's) was needed, as well as the infrastructure to support it.

[solo]

samson,

Yes, please give it a try too! It will be fascinating to see how the three approaches compare with the same start.

Offense? Why? This game is just too much fun to ever take offense. If you can't kid around a bit, the fun goes away.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by solo
.... you have to consider that for some reason it is very important for Ribannah's delicate ego to beat me in games with comparable starts ....

That goes without saying

The reason I needed a stronger economy was that I was playing MGE and therefore could not count on the AI's to provide me with the necessary coins for rush-building. Nor were there any interesting commodities in demand by the AI cities, so my empire had to be self-sufficient.
After automobile, I got 1 tech per turn with the science rate at 50-60%, and that was without counting caravans. Luxuries were at 10%. During the final turns, I made about 1500 gold a turn.
It may not have been enough to accomplish an earlier launch date than Solo's, but I'm pretty sure it was advancing MY launch date. I played most of the OCC games in similar manner. Still, I may have overdone it. But this was only my first attempt, basically for lack of good randomized starts.
I only really looked at Solo's log after I was done and the equal launch date from such a different approach is surprising indeed.

[samson]

I just finished this one, using the old "bare bones" approach.

==============================
AC: 768

Monarchy: --
Republic: -3050
Democracy: -1050

Copernicus -1100
Colossus: -900
Newton: -425
Apollo: 600

Automobile: 80
Computers: 320
Space Flight: 560
==============================

Skipped Monarchy and went right for Republic. Got 4 nomads (one polar) and 2 advanced tribes. Tried the "bait city" gambit. Built four helper cities around Washington and left them all undefended. In 850BC Boston (advance tribe at 56,12) was taken by barbarians. This was the farthest 'bait' and the road to had to be built over many hills, but eventually with rail and Superhighways it provided trade routes worth 30+ arrows.

By 400BC the SSC had all science wonders and improvements and was providing 2 turns/tech with a population of 7. I had 8 other cities, all size 3 or 2. Three of these were on the Russian/Egyptian coast, one was in the German heartland, and the last (polar-nomad founded) was way south of the Carthaginians. I kept a trireme running caravans between the coastal cities and the home continent up until it could be replaced by a transport. This meant that its home city, Chicago, was in and out of disorder every other turn under Democracy.

By 100 AD I had Superhighways in the size12 SSC and was getting 1 turn advances. I was able to maintain this rate with the help of small-bonus caravans until the Research Lab came on-line in the size16 SSC. Then two more 1 turn techs until Flight shut down the Colossus. After that I got a couple more 1 turn advances with SSC freights delivered abroad. Unfortunately, this replaced the high-paying Barb Boston trade routes. So I retook Boston with a Diplo and got another helper city.

Two turn techs slowed the endgame, but my production capacity was extremely low and I needed the time to build freights. In the end I just barely put a minimum ship together by 720 AD and launched without Fusion Power. FP was 2 techs away (behind a junker) and it was faster to launch without waiting for it. So I sold off science improvements, most of my units, and a temple or two. The 48 turn post-launch period was filled with AI skirmishes and one prolonged war. By the time the ship arrived on AC, half of Carthage was under American rule.

Note to Ribannah:
I only had one ally in this game, the Mongols, and they never gifted any gold until very late in the game when they offered me 300 to war on the Germans. I got one other 100 gold gift a few turns later. That was it. So stop whining about MGE.

[solo]

samson,

Well done! Copernicus (and science) first always seems to do best. If I had not gone for Hanging Gardens in 1900 (and MC right after!), I think I could have built Copernicus earlier than you did, but with earlier Republic, you probably gained ground early in techs. This game sort of confirms my suspicions that there just isn't enough time to grow or develop any cities except the SSC, even on a medium map, so my "overbuilding" days are over, especially after the success of my 336 game, where all helpers stopped at one temple and size 3 each. Are you convinced now, as I am, that small map is superior for earliest landings?

As for the MGE handicap, I have a few comments, as I used to play MGE all of the time before hearing of better AI diplomacy and tribute in 2.24. In MGE, much less tribute is available, but this is because the AI are more likely to declare war than pay up. In early landing games, tribute is not much of a factor, since we are in Republic so fast, not much, if any can be collected first. The main advantage of 2.24 seems to be the ease with which any or all of the AI can be kept peaceful, which can be useful for trading techs that they acquire. Oddly enough, alliances seem more likely in MGE, as I can usually get more than the single one that only seems available in 2.24 games, once I am ranked supreme. However, MGE alliances will be cancelled sooner if gifts are solicited too often, but MGE allies can be generous and good mannered (e.g., civilized perfectionists) ones can stick with you all game. For me, it's the less aggressive and more predictable behavior of the AI in 2.24 that gives that version its advantage in early landing games, and not so much the slight economic benefit.

solo

[samson]

Yes, small map is better for early landing. I've always said so. But I still think a pre-500 landing is possible on a medium map, too. It's just going to be harder to find the 'perfect' start.

I had the advantage in this game of having read your and Ribannah's logs. It gave me a notion of the geography and what to expect. But this wasn't an easy game. I was so strapped for cash that my first Wonder was delayed. Then the caravans started rolling in and I built Colossus right after Cope's. Usually I go for University first, but with caravans instead of cash available Colossus was quicker.

The AI was almost useless for techs in this game. After getting Mysticism, Iron Working and the Wheel from the Mongols I got nothing else. I was hoping someone would research Feudalism or Seafaring for me, but no. I eventually had to take Pottery, Monarchy, Horseriding, and Warrior Code - junk techs all. Still, not having to carry M, H, and WC until I was ready for Computers probably saved 2500 beakers.

The AI were feisty all game. The Mongols were rarely more than Cordial and stingy as heck. The Russians were worse - a constant threat to my coastal cities - and needed appeasement. The Babs, Egyptians, and Germans all "forgot" about our peace treaties in the end game and required checking every turn. The Carthaginians couldn't be reasoned with, except by taking their cities. Which started me thinking. In early landing you rarely get more than one ally. So, except for the Purples and the Ally, why not spend a little time conquering? 3 or 4 AI cities taken by NON units early in the game would be pretty helpful, ala your treatment of the Zulus. Might try a limited war strategy next time.

The 'bait city' ploy worked pretty good. But it didn't pay as well as an AI city and having Barbs on a rail line to my weakly defended SSC made me a little nervous. Also when I started sending out SSC freights those Barb City routes got replaced. Still, it did the job. I hated to see those techs drop to 2 turns at the end. But I needed to start saving caravans for the SS and couldn't send them out for delivery. I probably could have managed the trade better and not been in such a pinch at the end.

Skipping Fusion Power cost me 12 years in SS flight time. But allowed me to launch 2 turns sooner (40 years). A good trade-off. Although it made for a long wait for landing. No AI civ ever seriously threatened to launch a ship.

[solo]

Yeah, the Russians needed tech gifts very often to stay nice and they still were bugging me while trying to build that ill-fated railroad from San Francisco.

Taking AI cities may become a very good way to go, as it is so easy early in the game. Wait until they are just size two, and you can usually cream their warrior, or just walk in if there is no flag flying yet. Bribery is even cheap for a well-placed size one city. I think it was 24 gold for that Zulu city, and then I got 17 or so back in plunder, but they got even a bit by including Polythesim. Later, when going to Democracy, tribute was very good, too, maybe because of my earlier willingness to go on the offense.

City sites like what you are used to on small maps may be needed for a chance of pre-500 on medium, but on random maps, 1 gold with 3 other specials is infrequent and two gold close enough together is very rare. You may have your best shot with the map I used in the 776 game. Ribannah is trying that one now. It also starts you off with quite a few free techs.

While looking for another small map start I discovered that you can get more than 4 free techs on a small map start, something I didn't think could happen. One with useless terrain that I generated had 8 free techs at the start, which is the maximum! A small map start with extra free techs, PLUS a good SSC site could be the thing we need next! I'll keep looking.

[samson]

8 free techs isn't the maximum. I've had 9. Only once, but I counted them carefully and there were really 9 of them. I can't remember whether this was on a random start or during my testing of research costs. I might still have the savefile around somewhere. I think I had Monarchy, Trade and Map Making plus all their prerequisites, maybe Mysticism, too.

[solo]

Must be some magic in that computer of yours, because SG did thousands of tests, and the most ever seen was 8, if I remember correctly.

With 9 (another new record!), you were probably left on one tiny rock in the middle of the ocean!

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by samson
8 free techs isn't the maximum. I've had 9. Only once, but I counted them carefully and there were really 9 of them. I can't remember whether this was on a random start or during my testing of research costs. I might still have the savefile around somewhere. I think I had Monarchy, Trade and Map Making plus all their prerequisites, maybe Mysticism, too.

samson - many things are possible in Civ 2! For instance Map Making appears about once in 1500 starts!

The most techs we ever recorded at the beginning were as follows:
Small World 6 Techs
Medium and Large World 8 Techs.
If you have a 4000BC save with 9 - I would love to see it.
--------------
SG(2)

[solo]

SG,

I got 8 techs on a small map and will attach it here, as you would probably like to see it and add it to your collection. Only this one time, and although I asked for 7 civs, only 5 appeared in the game. Something weird happened, but it WAS a random start on a small map.

solo

[Scouse Gits]

Thanks solo - that game must be a 1 in 10,000 chance! It proves the fairly random nature of starting techs. The game is not impossible - but you would never achieve a record landing with that terrain. It's better than being stuck on the North Pole with only Bronze Working to start you off!

-------------

SG(2)

[solo]

The only thing unusual that might explain 8 techs was that my GAME.TXT was set up for Deity +5 at the time this start was generated. Could be a side effect of this.

Though devoid of good trade specials, the starting location is not awful, so I am trying a game anyways, with Washington and NY founded early at 66,10 and 70,8 where they share a fish and pheasant. Washington has an extra fish and NY has an extra fish and extra pheasant, and both grew rapidly with Monarchy as a starting tech. So far only one hut, giving an advanced tribe at 70,16, which has 1 whale and some grassland and forests. With a whale as the best trade special, science has not been spectacular so far, but I did find a potential SSC at 67,21, two squares northeast of Kyoto. It has a wine and 2 whales and there may be silk hidden in the grass at the fourth corner. A road to Kyoto was quick work, and a rail later will really boost trade, but even with so many techs as a head start, this game has no chance of being a record setter, due to the late start on a mediocre SSC site.

With Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws, Masonry, Monarchy, Mysticism, and Pottery as starting techs, it surprised me that there were 4 more to choose from when I made my first trade with the Japanese, who had Horseback Riding, Iron Working, Warrior Code and Wheel to pick from! This game has great potential for tech tree maneuvering, but the lack of trade specials, huts and tribute so far hurts.

[samson]

SG - If I can find that 9 tech start, I'll post it. I had read your work on starting techs and knew that it was unusual, so I think I still have it ... somewhere.

Solo - In my experience when the human player gets lots of starting techs, so do the the AI players. So I don't find it surprising that the Greens had so many.

[Ribannah]

Samson, for reasons of comparison, did you do any caravan rehoming like you did in other games? I have not done so since I felt it would make my game impure.

[samson]

Ribannah,

The only game in which I have rehomed caravans was the 76AD game which I just posted about. This landing, on Solo's medium map in 768AD, was "pure" and can be compared to yours and Solo's.

As I once remarked to Solo, your Civ brings to mind a huge luxury JumboJet touching down for a smooth-as-silk landing. Mine is a flying gascan, its wings held on with chewing gum, that crashes just after crossing the finish line. But it's not how much you've got when you get there, only when you get there.

Play on.