Humble Beginnings

Shadowstrike · August 18, 2000, 21:49

Well, I'm not the greatest Civ player, I only play on Prince, but I was wondering whether building a road before building the first city (in the absence of rivers) to provide trade is useful.Usually, I start a road on turn 1, move on turn 2 and build the city on turn 3. Is this wise/unwise? Anyhow, with a single settler, four cities is the most I've been able to get by 3000 BC without the lucky goody hut yielding a city. Is there a way to plant extra cities earlier then this?

Tom DeMille · August 18, 2000, 22:04

It might be a good idea to look around for a whale or two. Those can give your 1st city real jump start.

kent-jo · August 18, 2000, 22:29

quote:

Originally posted by Shadowstrike on 08-18-2000 09:49 PM
Anyhow, with a single settler, four cities is the most I've been able to get by 3000 BC without the lucky goody hut yielding a city. Is there a way to plant extra cities earlier then this?

yes. keep building settlers as a mad man.
And wait with building city improvments until you are finished expanding. And don't build an big army either.
Sorry i would explain better but my english is'nt so good. Try talking to ming and rah, they can explain it better

Caesar · August 18, 2000, 23:54

On Prince, I'll play test a bit...

No roads aren't necessary very early, a whale is great, but not essential.

(edit) I thought you were talking about something else.
[This message has been edited by Caesar (edited August 18, 2000).]

Sten Sture · August 18, 2000, 23:58

I think Rah/Ming would agree that looking around a little bit for a good city site gives you the benefits of 1) a possible early trade arrow special to assist in getting to Monarchy fast and 2) a possible defense and trade bonus river square and 3) a little info on the lay of the land. Waiting six to ten turns to start your first city can be a risk, but a good spot can make up for the delay quickly. If you have nothing to work with, build the road.

As an analyst who studies risks and their returns for a living, I'd say waiting has a good Sharpe ratio - good probability for extra return relative to the addition risk of not finding anything better and falling behind.

It's been said before but it always bears repeating: know the general special pattern. Open up the map editor and create a map of all water or all plains - the underlying pattern is always the same, it will be shifted in its entirety one direction or the other, but it is always recognizable. This can help you select a good location or guess which way to move your settler to find additional specials. Huts have a specific pattern as well - use the map editor to check it out.
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited August 18, 2000).]

Caesar · August 19, 2000, 00:07

Prince is quite unfamiliar territory for me right now, years of playing only deity

Four cities is a lot, I could get down four but only with a two settler start which wasn't very common. Well, for early game on prince, you don't really need that much to win. Basically build warrior, horsemen, settler, settler, settler, settler, change if situation demands more defenses or anything. But the intial warrior on prince is enough for early defense. The horsemen will find you huts which will give you money/techs/units/cities. But build settlers like theres no tommorrow.

On deity though, I wonder if you had a poor starting location but didn't want to get behind, would a road on a grassland sheild provide enough not to be too far behind. Its only one less trade and one less production, sure that can make a difference but is it better than wasting a lot of time to find a better location with a whale, falling behind others... any thoughts from experts?

SCG · August 19, 2000, 00:53

quote:

Originally posted by Caesar on 08-19-2000 12:07 AM
On deity though, I wonder if you had a poor starting location but didn't want to get behind, would a road on a grassland sheild provide enough not to be too far behind. Its only one less trade and one less production, sure that can make a difference but is it better than wasting a lot of time to find a better location with a whale, falling behind others... any thoughts from experts?

I would say it all depends on how you want to play. If you're inclined towards ICS, go ahead and plop down, you're just going to build more anyway, and will eventually work your way to the better sites, and in the mean time will have been productive.

For the more perfectionist stratagy, finding the good sites is worth any amount of waiting to get there. In the extreme case of OCC (One city challenge), I've explored into the 2000's to found my city, and been better off for it, and I'm sure others can echo similar sentiments.

For the middle ground, for which I used to always play, I would do exactly as you were doing - build a road or 2 before founding, maybe moving around just a little if i saw a special, but not worrying about it otherwise.

Ultimately, if you know what your doing, you're not going to fall far behind. The AI is programed to view you more favorably when you are weak, and it views you as weak if you wait to found your first city. Knowing how to take advantage of that is half the battle.

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

Shadowstrike · August 19, 2000, 22:16

Bumping this up so that Ming or rah might have a chance of seeing it.

jpk · August 20, 2000, 00:53

While I do not play at prince I think building a unit of road before founding a city makes sense if there is no other way to get trade arrows. If you try to get to Monarchy or some other goal as fast as possible an extra flask from each city can really help.

If you want to check it out start a game, enter cheat mode, reaveal the map, save the game and then play a partial game twice quitting when you get Monarchy. In the first run of the game don't build any roads; in the second run of the game build the roads prior to founding cities. See which gets you to monarchy first. When you do this locate your workers on the same squares in each run.

rah · August 20, 2000, 01:50

The only time i will build a road with one of my first two settlers is.
Founded capital on gold, i will road a shield grassland to help. and stall while i try to rushbuild a settler from my capital so i can take advantage of the non disbanding capital and keeping all the food feature.

Or if i just happen to be crossing a buffalo in the city range on my way out exploring.

Or if i'm moving a settler through a city, i may just build the road on the square next to the city since it's usually doesn't cost you a movement penalty if you travel on it the next turn.

In general though,(unless you're icsing) finding a trade special is what i'm looking for for my capital and building a road is just that many fewer squares you're gonna search. Finding a trade special even if you have to wander for 6-7 turns will still get you to monarchy faster that plopping down wherever. If there are no trade specials, then you just find production and try an ics strat. (only time i recommend it, personal bias, not based on brains)

RAH

Jack American · August 20, 2000, 05:20

All that Rah has said might as well have been in Hebrew. Shheww, right over my head! I think you are saying to build your capital on a gold icon and when your city becomes a settler again, you get to keep the food? Build roads on buffalo I get though. Question though, does building your capital city on a river and making it your SCC make sense or this this a bad idea? Also, when building on a river, should you build on the little arrow icon or next to it? Experts?

SandMonkey · August 20, 2000, 09:17

Jack -

The deal with the non-disbanding capitol: You can't disband your capitol (or only city) by building a settler when you have a size 1 city. therefore you can build many early settlers, as ,ong as you have the $$ available.

Spirit · August 20, 2000, 14:48

Did anyone ever try to find the score difference for building your city a turn later?
As I don't have time myself, is there a volunteer somewhere around here who wants to try this? I guess it would be best to play this without opponents (=> put them on other maps in ToT) and keep expanding the same way in both games, to minimize side effects. (This is remarkably important, so maybe its best, though it could be very boring, to play the games turn by turn simulteaneously). I suggest one should try this on a large continental map, with a large land mass, on deity as only the best players will possibly be interested in these (minor?) gains. Any idea what the final score difference might be? Somewhere around 10% looks reasonable to me. Anyone for the try?

Shadowstrike · August 20, 2000, 20:22

I usually build my capital or one of my early cities to be my SSC. I choose the location by finding trade specials and trade boosting terrain (mostly ocean and rivers coupled with whale or gold). By the way, what should my early priorities in tech be? I usually go first for Monarchy, then Bronze Working (Colossus), then Trade (picking up Pottery by the way) then Monotheism, then Astronomy, then Invention. Is the the best path? Can anyone show me a better one?

SCG · August 21, 2000, 08:23

quote:

Originally posted by Shadowstrike on 08-20-2000 08:22 PM
I usually build my capital or one of my early cities to be my SSC. I choose the location by finding trade specials and trade boosting terrain (mostly ocean and rivers coupled with whale or gold). By the way, what should my early priorities in tech be? I usually go first for Monarchy, then Bronze Working (Colossus), then Trade (picking up Pottery by the way) then Monotheism, then Astronomy, then Invention. Is the the best path? Can anyone show me a better one?

You could take a look at Paul's OCC page, http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/occ.htm, as that is the ultimate SSC. Monotheism is a sidetrack for OCC since you only need to keep 1 city happy. In his path key techs also include University, Theory of Gravity (Ike's college), Automobile (Superhighways) and Computers (research lab). If you do it right, you can have all that and still have the colossus in effect.

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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

Shadowstrike · August 21, 2000, 14:05

Thanx a lt for that. Now I know how to build a good SSC.

By the way, it always seems like you get a higher caravan bonus if you trade with another civ. Is this true?

I dunno why, but it seems that no matter how much science my SSC pumps out, I still get a tech every 3 or 4 turns.

Tom DeMille · August 21, 2000, 14:37

The caravan bonus (and the subsequent per turn increase in trade) is cut in half if the trade route is set up between two of your own cities.

kcbob · August 22, 2000, 08:51

quote:

I dunno why, but it seems that no matter how much science my SSC pumps out, I still get a tech every 3 or 4 turns.

Shadow, do you mean you get a tech "only" after 3 or 4 turns as opposed to 2 turns? If so, then I would suggest WLTxD. Build Shakespeare's Theater, make sure you have ample surplus food, and bump your luxuries to the max. With the appropriate improvements/governments, i.e., Aqueduct/Sanitation, Republic/Democracy, you'll have a population growth that will explode your research, either by working prime city squares or by extra population that you can convert to scientists.

The best I've been able to do so far is one advancement every two years by some time in the 1700s.
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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[This message has been edited by kcbob (edited August 22, 2000).]

Shadowstrike · August 22, 2000, 08:55

Well, then I looks like my next research goals are Sanitation and Democracy, my SSC is at size 12 due to WLTxDs. They're still kind of new to me, but its amazing what you can do with them!

kcbob · August 22, 2000, 13:03

Yikes! Did I forget to mention that I was talking in terms of OCC? Be careful about happiness in your non-SSCs when you celebrate. But then, MC will help with that.

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

SCG · August 22, 2000, 13:21

quote:

Originally posted by kcbob on 08-22-2000 08:51 PM
Shadow, do you mean you get a tech "only" after 3 or 4 turns as opposed to 2 turns? If so, then I would suggest WLTxD. Build Shakespeare's Theater, make sure you have ample surplus food, and bump your luxuries to the max.

quote:

Originally posted by kcbob on 08-22-2000 01:03 PM
Yikes! Did I forget to mention that I was talking in terms of OCC?

In OCC terms, unless you haven't built the colossus and a marketplace or temple yet, max luxuries is a bit of overkill. Any more than 2 goblets per population number is wasted, just like extra food when growing naturally or extra shields when building something, or extra beakers when discovering a new tech. Obviously, OCCing is all about micromanagement