using beakers efficiently

debeest · August 22, 2000, 22:09

I've only recently learned, from this forum, that when you fill up the science box with beakers, any excess is lost. (Doh! It works that way with food and shields, but once I learned that beakers carry over after you trade for an advance, I didn't check on what happens when you get the advance on your own.)

Sometimes when your science gets very large, the number of beakers needed for an advance is nowhere near an even multiple of beakers you get per turn. How do people arrange things to avoid wasting a substantial percentage of beakers?

Of course you can titrate your science output by adjusting the tax rate or by adding or removing scientists, but often that way is wasteful (little use cutting your science if you don't have the improvements to take advantage by producing taxes). Also, how do people manage caravans with regard to this problem? I've just delivered a couple caravans whose huge science bonuses were almost completely wasted.

Smash · August 22, 2000, 23:16

Beakers are carried over in most cities.Not in OCC of course.With tons of cities it is possible to get 3 or 4 or more techs per turn.I have a high score game that I work on from time to time and last time I was getting 4 future techs per turn at 30% science without freights.Carrying over tons of beakers there.

If you mean OCC,its kinda of guessing game.There are some onscreen rulers some use.By putting science to zero and removing all scientists,the number of turns is the number of beakers needed.You could do some calculating but the game changes research requirements from time to time.

DaveP · August 22, 2000, 23:53

Trade (and therefore beaker) production also changes unexpectedly at times. This can be result from changes in the trade produced by a trade partner (either up or down). Your trade can also be impacted by invading AI, sabotage, pollution, or expiring wonders.

IMO, it's best not to micromanage right down to the last beaker, but instead leave a small cushion of overproduction.

Scouse Gits · August 23, 2000, 05:45

Just a word of clarification on Smash's excellent summary --
The city that actually achieves the tech loses all its excess beakers that turn, but later cities in the build queue have their beakers contribute to the next tech - hence the possibility of multiple techs / turn (not something I've seen, but I simply don't have the patience for a mega score game)
Of course in OCC there is only one city so excess beakers are lost lost lost!
As far as caravans are concerned - in OCC it is vital that you check F6 before putting in a caravan and if necessary hold off delivery for one turn so that you get full benefit from the science bonus. This is not quite do vital in a normal game, but as a matter of course now (too much OCCing) I do it anyway.
Hope this helps

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

jpk · August 23, 2000, 09:30

I check my flask status prior to delivering caravans. If I think most of the flasks will be wasted, I don't need the money on that particular turn, and I don't think an AI civilization will destroy my caravan I will wait a turn or two before delivering it.

Sometimes I wait several turns. If the caravan is a desired commodity from my science city to a large city half way around the world. In such a situation the caravan can be worth several turns worth of flasks.

Ming · August 23, 2000, 11:41

I'm always willing to wait ONE TURN to avoid losing the full value of science beakers.
But, I will never wait longer than one turn since you risk the "changing demand" problem.
Nothing worse than moving a caravan half away around the world just to see the cities demand change one or two turns before you arrive

debeest · August 23, 2000, 11:52

Thanks, especially to Git 1. Now I feel less dumb for having always thought the beakers carried over -- they mostly do! I only started OCCing recently, and never focused on a single science city, so I never encountered the problem of serious wastage before. Now that I think about it, I have gotten multiple techs per turn now and then, so I should have known for sure that they carry over.

Smash · August 23, 2000, 15:17

I won a MP OCC game once in 1932 with just Cope's.MGE(duh),deity,hoardes,7 civs(3 humans).

debeest · August 23, 2000, 15:28

Oh, my, yes, I only meant that I'd never done SSC until I started OCC.

kcbob · August 23, 2000, 16:33

Smash, I don't know if MP would count. You would have three human players to buffer you from the AI. Still pretty impressive, though.

debeest, have you ever tried a SSC in a normal non-OCC game? It's still a powerful strategy.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

debeest · August 23, 2000, 16:51

I haven't, but now that I've seen what SSC can do all by itself, I'm eager to see what it can do with a little help from some other cities....

SCG · August 23, 2000, 17:43

quote:

<font size=1>Originally posted by kcbob on 08-23-2000 12:14 PM</font>
Your SSC reference was NOT to be considered in conjunction with your OCCing, correct? If it WAS to be taken together, then I would want to ask the Apolyton community if anyone has ever won an OCC game without a SSC? If you have, please note versions and playing level.

I knew I had seen something like that somewhere in this forum.

Play from the same start position, compare results, (http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000977.html?date=08:04)

It was a game where every wonder but the Apollo Program was lost initially. vik managed a 1947 landing playing it as an OCC.

Edit trying to fix the link
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April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*
[This message has been edited by SCG (edited August 23, 2000).]

kcbob · August 24, 2000, 00:14

quote:

<font size=1>Originally posted by debeest on 08-23-2000 11:52 AM</font>
I only started OCCing recently, and never focused on a single science city

Your SSC reference was NOT to be considered in conjunction with your OCCing, correct? If it WAS to be taken together, then I would want to ask the Apolyton community if anyone has ever won an OCC game without a SSC? If you have, please note versions and playing level.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[This message has been edited by kcbob (edited August 23, 2000).]

kcbob · August 24, 2000, 08:29

I remember this scenario. I tried it but didn't discover soon enough that I was on an island. I think that's what happened anyway. My original question was meant to imply, however, that while I didn't build a SSC, the AI did. Now THAT's annoying.

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

SCG · August 24, 2000, 09:11

hmm, a quick scan of the comparison tables (looking for '-' and AC landing dates - there's several I have yet to play so...) shows that at least in fortnight games, everyone who won (beat the AI to AC) all built the colossus, Cope's observatory, and Ike's college. In several they didn't build Shake's Theatre, or Darwin's voyage and still landed first. And in one game Tom got beat to Ikes and while landed on AC, he wasn't first... I don't want to go through the logs since I still haven't played 1-6 yet, you might scan the pre-fortnight comparison games and older OCC threads