New landing: 76 AD

[samson]

Deity, 7 civs, raging hoards, small map.

---------------------------------------------------
AC: 76 AD

Monarchy: --
Republic: -3250
Democracy: -1050

Copernicus: -1700
Colossus: -1300
Newton: -700
Apollo: -75

Railroad: -775
Automobile: -500
Computers: -250
Space Flight: -175

40 AD Launched 15-1-1-1-1-1 Spaceship (Fusion Powered).
76 AD Landed AC

Two caveats:
This was a replay of the random map start on which I originally landed in 356AD.
I did some caravan rehoming during the endgame.
---------------------------------------------------


The SSC (at 12,20) reached size 15 with colosseum not ST. I had 8 helper cities for most of the game, but built 2 more from settlers at the end so I could complete the SS parts in only two turns. I used a newly refined tech path in this game and think it was successful. I'll write up and post a full log for this game later if any are interested.

samson

[DrFell]

76AD that's amazing!, I'd love to read the log for this one, well done!

[Rasputin]

absoluty incredible, when will you guys get bored with it ? 2000BC landing

Well done. will be very interested to see a full log and a save game showing start... I can then attempt to copy your strategy and learn from it

[KrazyHorse]

Okay, this one's sort of frightening. Another few turns shaved off and you'll be at a SP 6 a.d. landing. If you manage to do that on random map, I'm going to have to worship you as a god. Just saying...

[Rasputin]

these guys are the gods of SP ... wha tis the best AC landing in a proper MP game where people are competing to do landing including warfare to prevent the Space ship ??

[Scouse Gits]

Wow! I assume the late game rehoming was to raise last minute funds for SS purchase?
Many congratulations - you guys must write a 'Paulicy' style guide so that we mere humans can pretend we know what we are doing ...

[Scouse Gits]

samson - Brilliant game - you must have played it without a mistake for that result. Before you forget all this skill, please write out the wisdom. Along side the Paulicy we could then have the SAMple!
---------------
SG(2)

[samson]

Thanks all. I'll write up a log on this, but it will be a few days what with the holiday and all.

SGs - Yes, the caravan rehoming was a fundraiser, after Flight so it wasn't all that effective really. I'll have to go back and calculate how much it actually saved me. It also brought in one quick tech, but I would have had Fusion Power before 1 AD even without it. This wasn't a mistake-free game but the luck was good and that balances things. I think the main difference in this game was planning out the entire tech path before starting.

KH - The earliest possible launch date in SP is 20AD. To build a 6 year ship, you'd need 50 some cities and all the freights ready to go. That isn't going to happen on a random map. With 20 cities you could launch a 36 year ship and land in 56AD. Or with 12 cities you could launch a 15 year ship in 40AD and land in 55. But 76AD is pretty close to the limit.

Ras - The random start save for this game is available under the "Another Early AC Landing" thread. BC landings are not possible in a NON-scenario game. The earliest you can build SS parts is 1 AD. The earliest you can launch in 20AD.

[KrazyHorse]

Oops...had the multiplayer method too much on my mind. You're right, of course.

[solo]

Super game, and I await a log and details about the tech path you decided on. I suspect an early discovery of railroad might have been a part of your strategy here. I figured you were good for shaving off a few more hundred in a replay and wonder how much of an advantage map pre-knowledge was to you. What is your estimate of turns saved from this?

By the way, rehoming is perfectly fine and permissible in games were the landing date ends in '76, such as my earlier 776 rehoming game and your most recent game! Just kidding! Seriously, though, how many turns do you figure rehoming saved you?

I was thinking of giving that start another go myself, but you've already proven that a launch very early in AD is attainable, and must admit that I doubt I would be able to beat 76 anyways! So once again, great game! My hat's off to that result!

Although already rendered obsolete by samson's 76 game, my replay on this map yielded a landing date of 336 AD. Since I have a log typed up and ready, I will post it in a new thread for those of you interested in seeing more details of what is involved in pre-500 AD landing attempts. When samson's log of this terrific game is ready after a well deserved rest, it can be consulted for further refinements and improvements.

[samson]

Solo, thanks.

Caravan rehoming helped my finances at the end, but didn't advance my science much. I landed 6 rehomed freights in Carthage after discovering Flight. I got 360gold apiece for them, 2160gold total. The first four gave me a 2nd tech for that turn, but the other two did nothing research-wise. Even without the rehomed freights I would have finished researching Fusion Power in BC years. But the 2K gold built 15 new freights for me, a net of 9 freights from those delivered. What would I have received from non-rehomed freights? Probably not enough to make them worth delivering. When could I have launched without rehoming? Hard to say, a few turns later at least.

The biggest difference in the replayed game was in research path. I made an effort to reduce the carrying cost of techs. That's why I skipped Monarchy and went direct to Republic. I actually could have been in Republic sooner by going to Monarchy first and not spending all those years in Despotism. But the carrying cost of Monarchy is thousands of beakers. Same with WC, Pottery, and Horseriding. Delaying the acquistion of all those techs until after the SSC could support their carrying costs made the other techs cheaper and got me to Automobile faster. Automobile is the key tech in Early Landing. I hit 1 tech/turn shortly after building Newton's and got several 2 techs/turn chances with non-rehomed freights after Automobile.

This was the first game in which I plotted out my entire tech path from start to FP before researching my first tech. Oedo's work on tech availability was invaluable in doing this. It allowed me to plan for those deadspots in the tech path that need to be filled with "junk" techs. I was ready to trade for them at the most opportune times and get to Automobile, Computers, and SF in the shortest possible time. This probably saved me 10 turns, maybe more, over my previous effort.

As for the advantage of map foreknowledge, it helped me in one fashion. I sent out an early trireme with a caravan for overseas exploration. The camel tipped a few huts, including one for a nomad on a small island, "discovered" the Carthaginians and landed its commodity for a tidy profit prior to Invention and Navigation. I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't known the C's were out there. But having done it, I think I'll make it a regular practice. The payoff is well worth the risk.

[La Fayette]

I am not so sure I wish to invite you to play scenarios with us any longer. I suppose that if you start doing that with the same kind of dedication our nice scores will look ridicumous.
Congratulations, anyway.

(this guy is La Fayette, dreaming of the happy consequences of WISELY designed caravan rehoming)

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by samson
Ras - The random start save for this game is available under the "Another Early AC Landing" thread. BC landings are not possible in a NON-scenario game. The earliest you can build SS parts is 1 AD. The earliest you can launch in 20AD.

Thnks i wil ltry and find it when i get home from work...

I was only oking re the BC landing

[solo]

samson,

Although rehoming may not have cut many turns off tech discoveries, all the extra beakers they provided allow higher tax settings, thus generating a little more income for the space ship.

Looks like you are starting to become a bit of a fan of trade, too! Those early caravan deliveries are my favorites, as they can speed up discoveries and provide cash to help the tiny SSC grow and add science improvements faster. Very often, the overseas demanding city does this before it is actually located. "Find city" will zero in on it's location in games that are not replays.

Your log of this game would be of great interest when it is ready, as I would like to see how you saved those 10 turns witht the new route through the tech tree.

solo

[samson]

I would like to see how you saved those 10 turns with the new route through the tech tree.

Well, 10 turns was a guess. Let's see if we can determine how much the tech choices, as opposed to science production itself, contributed to the new landing record. We'll compare the science progress of my 76 AD game to your 336 AD game.

The Opening

SOLO:

Monarchy
Writing
Literacy
Mysticism (H)
Republic (5)

3050 BC
5 techs: 1 from huts, 4 researched

SAMSON:

Mapmaking (H)
Writing
Literacy
Republic (4)

3250 BC
4 techs: 1 from huts, 3 researched

We each tipped 1 hut for an unwanted tech, Mysticism being perhaps the better catch of the two. You founded 2 cities early, researched Monarchy and switched into it before I established my first city. Yet despite spending all my early years in Despotism, I got to Republic 4 turns sooner. How? 1 fewer techs and more Gold. It cost me 78 beakers to get Republic, it probably cost you 97 beakers. All three of my early cities had Gold specials to work, albeit shared ones. Only your Boston had Gold.

The difference in tech path at this point is Monarchy. Republic cost me 36 beakers to research, it likely cost you 45. While that clearly doesn't account for all of my 4 turn lead in science, I think it fair to attribute at least 1 turn to the tech choices to this point. And from here on out, Monarchy was just a 'junk tech' you had to carry, increasing your research cost for every other tech.

Exploration and Expansion

SOLO:

Mapmaking (T)
Bronze Working (T)
Currency
Masonry (T)
Mathematics (H)
Trade (11)
Astronomy (12)

2400 BC
12 techs: 2 from huts, 3 from trades, 7 researched.
7 cities founded, SSC is size 6.

SAMSON:

Bronze Working (T)
Currency (T)
Masonry (T)
Trade (8)
Mathematics
Mysticism
Astronomy (11)
Banking (12)

2600 BC
12 techs: 1 from huts, 3 from trades, 8 researched
7 cities founded, SSC is size2.

At this phase of the game, we each have 12 techs and I have the same 4 turn lead as at the last comparison. We both have Trade and Astronomy and we have each benefitted from 3 on-path tech trades with the AI. While I have researched 5 techs to your 3 in the 13 turns that have passed, your SSC has grown to size 6 via WLTC days and mine has not yet reached size 3.

Tech path choices have been comparable.

To the 19th tech

SOLO:

Construction
Philosophy
Medicine (F)
University (H)
Banking (T)
Wheel (T)
Gravity (19)

1750 BC
19 techs: 3 from huts, 5 from trades, 1 free, 10 researched.

SAMSON:

Philosophy
University (F)
Construction
Medicine (H)
Gravity (H)
Chemistry
Iron Working (T)

1850 BC
19 techs: 3 from huts, 4 from trades, 1 free, 11 researched

Research costs jump dramatically on the 20th acquired tech, so this is a good comparison point for tech choices and progress. During this period you've cut my lead in the science race to 2 turns. You've picked up one more useful tech in AI trading than I have and that may explain it.

At this point the only difference in our tech lists is that you have Wheel and Monarchy while I have Iron Working and Chemistry. Neither of us has built a Wonder yet.

The Race for Railroad

SOLO:

Engineering
Invention (21)
Pottery (T)
Democracy (23)
Seafaring (T)
Chemistry
Navigation
Warrior Code (T)
Sanitation
Physics
Economics
Iron Working (T)
Steam Engine
Bridge Building (33)
Magnetism
Railroad (35)

375 BC
Race to railroad: 40 turns
35 techs: 3 from huts, 9 from trades, 1 free, 22 researched
SSC is size18
Wonders built: Copernicus, Shakespeare, Colossus, INU


SAMSON:

Economics
Wheel (T)
Bridge Building (22)
Engineering
Sanitation (H)
Invention (25)
Seafaring (T)
Democracy (27)
Navigation
Physics
Gunpowder
Steam Engine
Railroad (32)

775 BC
Race to Railroad: 26 turns
32 techs: 4 from huts, 6 from trades, 1 free, 21 researched
SSC is size11
Wonders built: Copernicus, Colossus

This is the most crucial period. It's where the game broke. I gained 14 turns on you, much of it through tech choices that reduced my research costs in this period. We each started the period with 19 techs, but one of yours is Monarchy which was essentially a junker now. This meant that you had one more tech to research than I did on the path to Railroad.

Both of us were able to trade for Iron Working, Seafaring, and The Wheel (all vital techs) although in different sequence. For me Bridge Building was important to get early since my SSC had more rivers than yours and the route to my trading partner ran over them, unlike yours. For you Seafaring was a more critical tech. Since your SSC's growth and trade depended on its ocean squares you needed a harbor.

I went for Invention later than you did, keeping the tech-from-huts window open a bit longer and it paid off with one more free tech. Balancing that, you got one more vital tech from trading with the AI than I did. However, you also traded for Pottery and Warrior Code in this period. Which means you wound up with 3 junk techs through much of this period and the next. The carrying cost of those 3 techs during this period alone was 684 beakers; more than enough to pay for a full advance.

During this time, you built Shakespeare's Theatre and WeLoved your SSC up to size18 while I opted for a colosseum and reached only size11. You got to a 1 turn/tech rate before Railroad while I didn't achieve that until midway through the next comparison period, at about Refining. So how much of the 14 turns I added to my lead was due to tech choices and how much to science production rates?

To get to Railroad you had to research 2 more techs than I did and had to pay more (684 beakers) for all of your techs. I estimate that this difference in tech acquistion accounts for approximately 10 of the 14 turns I gained in this period. My reasoning is this: the 684 extra beakers you paid was worth at least one additional tech. So in effect, you had to research 3 more techs than I did. At your average tech rate in this period of 3.333 turns/tech, you lost 10 turns here due to carrying extra techs. There are NO free techs! You pay for them over the rest of the game.

The other 4 turns were probably lost due to having more WeLove! days to reach size18 than I needed to reach size11 in the SSC. Since size11 was sufficient for my smaller research costs, the other 4 lost turns were an indirect effect of tech acquisition choices.

On to Automobile

SOLO:

Industrialization
Gunpowder
Explosives
Corporation (39)
Metallurgy
Refining
Electricity
Horseriding (T)
Combustion
Steel
Automobile (46)

150 BC
Railroad to Auto: 9 turns
46 techs: 3 from huts, 10 from trades, 1 free, 32 researched.
SSC: size 18
Wonders built: none

SAMSON:

Industrialization
Magnetism
Corporation (35)
Explosives
Refining
Metallurgy
Combustion
Electricity
Steel
Automobile (42)

500 BC
Railroad to Auto: 11 turns
42 techs: 4 from huts, 6 from trade, 1 free, 31 researched.
SSC: size 13.
Wonders built: INU

In this period, you cut 2 turns off my lead by having your SSC running at full throttle the whole time. I didn't achieve 1 tech/turn until Refining. We each researched 10 techs. You traded for Horseriding (another junk tech) and arrived at Automobile with 46 techs to my 42 techs. The higher cost you paid for techs during this period was still within the science output of your SSC and therefore didn't hurt.

To Computers

SOLO:

Mass Production
Conscription
Feudalism (T)
Electronics
Chivalry
Leadership
Tactics
Atomic Theory
Machine Tools
Miniaturization
Nuclear Fission
Nuclear Power
Computers (59)

80 AD
Auto to Computers: 10 turns
59 techs: 3 from huts, 11 from trades, 1 free, 44 researched.

SAMSON:

Electronics
Mass Production
Conscription
Atomic Theory
Nuclear Fission
Nuclear Power
Laser
Warrior Code (T)
Monarchy (T)
Feudalism
Horseriding (T)
Chivalry
Leadership
Tactics
Machine Tools
Pottery (T)
Miniaturization
Computers (60)

250 BC
Auto to Computers:10 turns
60 techs: 4 from huts, 10 from trade, 1 free, 45 researched.

We both went down the Atomic pathway to maximize pre-Flight research. A good choice. I got to Laser before finally trading for the junk techs of Warrior Code, Monarchy and Horseriding. You got Feudalism in trade with the AI. I traded for Pottery to clear my tech path after Machine Tools. We each managed some 2 tech/turns with the help of offshore trading. 10 turns each.

To the Stars

SOLO:

Laser
Flight (61)
Radio
Polytheism (T)
Advanced Flight
Rocketry
Space Flight (66)
Plastics
Refrigeration
Superconductor
Fusion Power (70)

280 AD
Computers to FP: 10 turns
70 techs: 3 from huts, 12 from trades, 1 free, 54 researched

Launch: 300AD

SAMSON:

Flight (61)
Radio
Polytheism (T)
Advanced Flight
Rocketry
Space Flight (66)
Plastics
Communism
Superconductor
Fusion Power (70)

75 BC
Computers to FP: 7 turns
70 Techs: 4 from huts, 11 from trades, 1 free, 54 researched

Launch: 40 AD

The only real difference in tech path here is that I had Laser before Computers. I also picked up a turn on you from the rehomed caravans that gave me an extra 2 tech turn. As I mentioned before, rehomed caravans helped my cash situation but didn't really benefit me science-wise.

You launched 1 turn after achieving Fusion Power while I had to wait 3 turns for 1 AD and 2 more turns to build SS parts. So my 17 turn science lead resulted in a 13 turn (260 years) launch date lead.

Almost the entire difference in our results lies in the period from the 20th tech to Railroad where a few unnecessary tech trades on your part and the additional burden of having Monarchy increased your research costs at a critical time.

samson

[solo]

samson,

A very informative and fascinating analysis, as I was not aware of the full cost of carrying unneeded techs before the discovery of Railroad. Note that if I had just held off trading for Pottery and Warrior Code for a few more turns each, I could have skipped them and traded directly for Seafaring and Iron Working. This is hindsight, however, because there was no way to know that the discovery of both Searfaring and IW by the AI were imminent. I was also afraid of being presented with short lists of unwanted techs to pick from during this period. If only my AI had learned a little faster or I had been a tad more patient!

Still, in spite of this difference, I think your move to bypass Monarchy was still enough to gain an edge in the race to Railroad. In several OCC games, bypassing Monarchy has also proven to be the fastest way to get to AC, so congratulations on this refinement and for the overall success of skipping over unneeded techs until they could be comfortably carried.

As for rehoming, I believe if I had used it after Flight, I might have been able to launch 5 or 6 turns earlier, since I had plenty of freights within reach of Carthaginian cities at that time. If rehomed, these freights that would have only brought in a little over 100g each would have yielded 700+ gold, a huge difference:
a few more 2 tech turns and much more gold for making the ship.

Again, thanks for the time and effort you put into the comparative analysis. It was quite effective and impressive in illustrating the points you wanted to make, much more so than just a log of your game.

solo

[Scouse Gits]

Thank you samson and solo for another very interesting thread.

The problem of the unwanted techs in the early game has been well illustrated. I always seem to find Warrior Code in the first few huts!

To combat this I have tried setting my science rate to zero before opening villages - prior to Monarchy! Some limited success - gold does seem a little more common with taxes at 60%. I have not tested the theory enough to claim anything more than a placebo

---------------

SG(2)

[samson]

Solo,

Re: rehoming.

Yes, if either of us had committed to rehoming caravans from the start we could easily have saved many turns. However, that wasn't my point. The rehoming I did was very limited, six freights that arrived after Flight. I was only saying that this little bit of rehoming didn't affect my research significantly.

I was also afraid of being presented with short lists of unwanted techs to pick from during this period.

This is where my pre-planned tech path helped me. By using Oedo's research I knew what all the available techs would be in advance and how a trade or hut-tip would effect my choices. The only "short list" that I got stuck with was at the end of the game when I had to trade for Pottery.

Although it may not be apparent in the comparison of tech choices, the path I used was "short-list safe". Further, it was designed to delay certain key techs like Wheel, Seafaring, and Iron Working to allow the AI as much time as possible to research them. With a pre-planned tech path (and the knowledge to recalculate and adjust it as the game progressed) I knew how long I could wait for the AI. Also, the more time that passed the more the SSC was capable of carrying a 'junk tech' without losing turns, in case I had to take WC in order to do IW myself.


SG,

Thanks. Interesting idea - zeroing science to reduce the chance or getting a tech from huts. Must try that.

[solo]

samson,

You are right about rehoming being insignificant in your game, as all of the research (and the lead it provided) was essentially done by the time you used it.

It may also be that your AI were faster researchers due to the fact that they had Republic early as a gift from you (my assumption) and without the slower Monarchy to pick from, they might have switched to Republic earlier than they did in my game where many were content to stay in Monarchy. Another reason to bypass Monarchy, I think.

Scouse Gits,

This is very interesting, the idea of a relationship between the tax, science and luxury settings and the hut outcomes. Well worth some intensive testing just to see.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

As one of the slower players still trying to net a pre-1750 landing, this comparison provided some good insights. Previous logs usually stated only what was built or discovered when. How and why remained conjecture to the not-so-knowledgeable.

This burst the bubble on what I suspect are the key starting points for novice early landing efforts. I've made the mistake of always rushing to monarchy first, then trading techs with the AI. Instead, it appears racing for republic and only gifting techs will be a good starting strategy. Thanks!

I'll post my 18AD landing log tomorrow...

[samson]

I did give away Republic to all and that may have been a factor in AI research. I also gave Bronze Working to all who had Warrior Code and Maps to all who had Pots. And while I did get Iron Working much sooner than you did, your AI came up with Wheel and Seafaring a bit faster. Also, my AI had to research Monarchy on their own and never had time to get Feudalism.

I think Republic first is a good choice in this game, and maybe for any early landing attempt. But you had cut my lead down to 2 turns by the time we each had 19 techs. And our endgames were almost the same. It was the period I called "Race to Railroad" where I outresearched you. Whether my theory of what led to that difference is correct or not, it's still the period that needs the most scrutiny. It's when our choices of key techs, sequence of Wonder building, and SSC development were all made.

Anyway, we sure squeezed a lot out of that one start. It was fun.