Generated Worlds

[Fubla]

Is there any tangible difference between the "archipelago," "varied," and "continents" settings for generated maps? Regardless of which one I select, I always seem to end up with the same type of map. Not that the world is going to end because my archipelago looks like a continent, but I do feel somewhat miffed when I ask for the Phillipines and end up with an Australia that got run through a blender.

Any ideas/knowledge about how the game generates maps based on that setting?

(I have version 2.42, by the way.)

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by Fubla
Australia that got run through a blender.

ouch the poor kangaroos and wombats...

[KrazyHorse]

The difference is there, but it's not really all that staggering. The main thing is that on archipelago the continents are even thinner bands of land. On continent they have slightly more substance.

[Rasputin]

i still find 50% of the time i start on little islands even with continents large land mass selected...

[Marquis de Sodaq]

The random map generator sucks donkey dong. KrazyHorse is right, it tries to make archipelagos by having water "break" the land more frequently. Alas, it doesn't always separate them, leaving you with strands. Your best bet is to make your own.

[Rasputin]

today on giga random map, i selected large land mass , continents and ended up with a start on a 6 square by 2 square island !!!!!!!!!!!

[Scouse Gits]

Ras, which civ were you playing?

[shade]

Well then you'll probably like my Civ-game (when it gets finished),
the randommapgenerator is already finished and it works quite well,ie. if you ask for continents you'll get them,and archipellagos are tiny islands.(am i genious or what? )

Your not so humble Shade

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
Ras, which civ were you playing?

I think it was American or Egytian one of those two anyway, I been experimenting lately with different civs to see if anything changes ..

[shade]

Fubla:
I've uploaded my mapeditor,try it out maybe you like those maps beter.(just don't expect to much out of it,only good randommaps like you ask => continents are continents and islands are islands)

shade(hope it helps you out)

[Fubla]

Shade -

I tried running your map editor. It opened up just fine, but when I tried to do anything with it - open a map, create a map, generate a map, whatever - I got an error message that reads:

"Access violation at address 0042016C in module 'PRJCIV5_2.exe'. Read of address FFFFFFFFF."

Um...any thoughts?

[shade]

Auch...
does not sound good.
(one quick question wich version of windows are you running?(friend of mine tested it and win 2000 ****ed up))

just tried something on this computer to,gues i found the problem
=>if you unzip the zipfile do you get 2 maps ,one where the maps are stored and one where the graphics are stored.Do you have those maps?
I'll post the names tomorrow.

shade(sorry)

[shade]

ok here is something that might help you out
=> 1)unzip the zipfile in a new map.
2)create in this map 2 new maps name the first "gfx" and the second "mapsave"
3)then you put the files "landcoord.txt","landnaam.txt"and"ter.bmp" in the map "gfx"
and the 3 files .Wmp you put in the map "mapsave"
=>hope this works, it's probably the fault of the desktop.ini file that sc**ws up sorry didn't test that.

I think this should work,i'm going to test this in the morning (since it's now 0:10 am

shade

[Fubla]

All right shade - that fixed it. And finally, archipelagos that actually are archipelagos! Well, sort of. Better than the Civ2 Map Editor anyway.

Speaking of which, I saved a map in .mp format, and the Civ2 Map Editor said it was invalid, but it worked fine in the game itself. Go figure. Also, I noticed that the resource specials in your editor didn't follow the same seed pattern as those in the Civ2 Editor - I think you went over that at your webpage. But I noticed that when you start a game on the maps, the only specials that show up are the ones that correspond with the Civ2 seed format, which means that there are huge masses of land with no specials whatsoever. (I'd like to see some of those 320 AD landings on THAT map...) Anyway, you might want to look into this, and you might not want to, considering it's designed to be an editor for your game and not Civ2.

Oh, another tiny problem - you might want to change "dessert" to "desert" on the terrain menu. Slightly different connotations.

But all in all, good work!

[shade]

I'm glad it was just that.Phew what a relief.

Also, I noticed that the resource specials in your editor didn't follow the same seed pattern as those in the Civ2 Editor - I think you went over that at your webpage. But I noticed that when you start a game on the maps, the only specials that show up are the ones that correspond with the Civ2 seed format, which means that there are huge masses of land with no specials whatsoever.

Well yeah,Civ2 uses a seed,I just put them on the map and save them with the terraintype.(but i will take a look at the save procedure,when i was trying to get rid of the huts i played around a little with one bit of the terraincode.if this bit is turned on there can be no resources(except for huts) on that terrainsquare.So i got the idea to (ab)use this so the rescources would be placed at the same spots as mine,but it didn't work=> I probably forgot to delete that line afterward,thx for telling me.

Speaking of which, I saved a map in .mp format, and the Civ2 Map Editor said it was invalid, but it worked fine in the game itself. Go figure.

(now shoot me)It worked fine with me.(try a 40x50 map=>let me know what it does)=>probably just the round function seems like it rounds 12.5->12 instead of 13 and that might give a problem.(i'll have a look in to it)

dessert oeps (that's one of the problems if English is not your native language=>more spelling errors)

shade

[Blaupanzer]

Personally, I'd rather live in a dessert than a desert. Specials could be spun sugar and big rock candy mountain. More useful for keeping people happy than oil and oases. We're all learning; keep civin'.

[Edward]

Shade,

English is your second language!? You write better than many Americans I know!

You may be interested in some other Civ "re-creation" efforts. Check out the Alt.Civ area of Apolyton:
http://apolyton.net/alt/
Most notably FreeCiv.
FreeCiv's homepage: http://www.freeciv.org/
Apolyton's forum on FreeCiv: http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdisp...s=&forumid=111
It's open source so you could see potential ways to code Civ2 stuff. I believe one of it's creators is active on Apolyton.

Originally posted by Blaupanzer
Personally, I'd rather live in a dessert than a desert. Specials could be spun sugar and big rock candy mountain. More useful for keeping people happy than oil and oases. We're all learning; keep civin'.

I believe dessert's whale-group special is Molasses Swamp (3 movement points). However, even normal dessert squares produce a lot of food. Great for pumping out settlers in the early game.

[Blaupanzer]

AND dessert settlers work more intensively on their first turn. However, they later tend to s.l.o.w w..a..y d...o...w...n.

[shade]

English is your second language!? You write better than many Americans I know!

second...wait
first: Dutch
second:French
third:Latin
forth:English
Fifth:German
something like that
(this certainly is not to brag,only Dutch and English are good enough for other ppl to understand)

Dessert-squares en Dessert-settlers... my God Noooooooo....


all problems are solved and i uploaded a new version,now it works. (if the CIV2 editor doesn't want to load the map just try again it should work)
=> resources are back


Shade

[Fubla]

Okay...I tried a small map, it doesn't work. I tried a flat map - it doesn't work. The error message reads "Failed to load map file," though I doubt that's going to be of much help. So it looks like I can't open the maps in the Civ2 editor. I think I'll live.

However, I did notice a few other minor problems.

1) You can't generate a flat blank map.

2) The cutoff for the polar regions is too harsh, in my opinion. Tundra begins at the same latitude all the way across the map, which makes an unnatural straight boundary line.

3) Erratic river behavior. Rivers tend to flow in circles a lot, and only occasionally have outlets to the sea.

4) Square landmasses. Not really SQUARE...it's just that there's an unnatural number of straight coastlines. But it's really not too noticable when you start a new game on the map, so...it's only a tiny problem.

[Quantum Satis]

I can recommend a very good map generator made by Peter Blackman. You can download the Zip-file (253 KB) from his homepage at: http://www.cix.co.uk/~spot/

[shade]

sorry about that,it works fine on my computer.

1)didn't even think about that one

2)I know it still needs some finetuning but the rest is beter?or is there the same problem??(sounds strange but it really is usefull to me since you're kinda testtingplayer )
3)&4) those are rader algorithmical problems,the computer doesn't really understand me But 4 also bothered me and it will be changed (lateron) 3) will probably get a new algo but what you say is most of the time a problem of large maps.(it is also a point where my maps and those of Civ2 are kinda incompatible)

(there still is the generator QS suggested)

I'll post some maps here that work on my computer ok?hey an idea could you post a map(even empty is ok)lets say 40X50 created by your CIV2 editor and one of the same size made with my editor(have a little testprogram to check something out)

shade

[Edward]

Shade,

A possible solution to circular rivers, go upstream:

Make your river algorithm always start a river in a coastal square (even if it's the coast of a small inland lake). All rivers must dump their water somewhere (unless they're really narrow stagnant lakes or were built by M.C. Escher).

After winding your main waterway inland, you can randomly add a few tributaries if desired.

[shade]

Fubla:I found the problem with the Civ2 editor(i think):there is no problem.I made some maps with my editor and with the civ2 editor using the same variables(ie same size),I also created a little testprogram to show me BYTE by BYTE what the difference between 2 such maps was.=>nada,njetsk,notthing,nil,...(you get the point and my depression)

But still the Civ2 editor gave an error loading my maps.(but not all the time)
=>There is 1 thing I am certain of now ,if you get the error just create a map(random or empty doesn't matter)with the Civ2 editor of the same size and try loading again.When i did that there were no more loading errors and everything went perfect ,don't ask me why or how.but this seems to work.
I included 3 maps in this post,if you want you(or anyone else) can try them out(i would ask to try without creating an other map first,i just want to know if they load)
(you really learn to "love" computers when you're programming )

Edward:that's a good idea but(yes there's a but,I'm sorry)
1)there still will be circles
2)takes longer to find a good starting spot(but this is the least of my troubles

Shade

[Edward]

shade,

You're correct, there could still be circles. But I think rivers without outlets are more "unrealistic" than rivers with an outlet and some circles in it. Even the Civ2 game generates rivers with loops.

To avoid circles you might try:

1) find a random coastal square. You could loop through all the squares on the map and make a separate array of only squares where:
  * square is not ocean
  * square isn't a hill or mountain
  * square doesn't already have a river
  * one or more of the four perpendicularly adjacent squares (not diagonally adjacent) are ocean

  Then choose a random square from your array. Call it (coastX, coastY)


2) build the main river path by...
  square [coastX, coastY] := river;
  addRiverSquare (coastX, coastY, 1);

  with the function:

  function addRiverSquare (x, y, numRiverSquaresSoFar) {
    if numRiverSquaresSoFar < someConstantBasedOnWorldWetness +/- randomNumber {
      make array of all 4 adjacent squares (not diagonally adjacent) and call it adjacentSquare[];
      jumble up the adjacentSquare[] array so the four elements are in a random order;
      foundGoodUpstreamSquare := false;
      i := 1;
      while i <= 4 and not foundGoodUpstreamSquare {
        if isGoodUpstreamRiverSquare (adjacentSquare[i].x, adjacentSquare[i].y) {
          foundGoodUpstreamSquare := true;
          square [adjacentSquare[i].x, adjacentSquare[i].y].hasRiver = true;
          numRiverSquaresSoFar := numRiverSquaresSoFar +1;
          addRiverSquare (adjacentSquare[i].x, adjacentSquare[i].y, numRiverSquaresSoFar);
        }
        else {
          i := i +1;
        }
      }
    }
  }

  This recursive algorithm avoids making loops (and sticks to Civ2's "rule" that rivers only connect to other river squares "perpendicularly" as opposed to flowing into a diagonally adjacent squares).

The function isGoodUpstreamRiverSquare() should return
  false if the passed square is an ocean (you don't want to add a river in the ocean!),
  false if the passed square is a hill or mountain (seems to be a Civ2 rule - no rivers in hills or mountains),
  false if the passed square already has a river (you're just going downstream in this case),
  false if the passed square is adjacent to more than one river (it'll always be adjacent to the river square you just laid down but we want to avoid making loops. (being diagonally adjacent to other river squares is OK)),
  and true otherwise.

If you also make the function isGoodUpstreamRiverSquare() return false if the passed square is adjacent to an ocean, you'll avoid "deltas" (where a river spills out into the sea from multiple coastal squares) and also avoid a river cutting a continent in half. If you like deltas, you can add them by remembering the initial coastal square and making a perpendicularly adjacent (not diagonally adjacent) coastal land square a river square.


3) You can add tributatries by walking up or downstream to a river square (say at x, y) and invoking addRiverSquare (x, y, 1). The number of tributaries might be based the main river path's number of river squares (the longer the initial river the more tributaries). It might alternately be based on the wetness of the world (since returning the last numRiverSquaresSoFar value could be difficult if you're not used to recursive functions). When you add tributaries you might want to tweak the code so tributaries aren't as long on average as the main path.

Warning! This isn't written in any particular programming language and (since I just made it up on the fly) is sure to contain bugs and stuff I've overlooked (e.g. looking at adjacent squares when you're already on the edge of the map and such). You'll need to do some testing and tweaking but this is the basic idea. A friend of mine and I used a similar algorithm to recreate the famed Atari game "MazeCraze" on our Commodore 64. MazeCraze mazes (like ideal Civ2 rivers) don't include loops (I presume so the AI MazeCraze monsters wouldn't endlessly circle them).

[shade]

thx Edward,just copy pasted your reply,it looks like a good algorithm.
(note that i am not making a mapeditor for CIV2,this causes some strange effects on conversion,because of the strange way Civ2 gives coordinates to it's squares)

I know there are still a hole lot of things that need some finetuning in the mapeditor but for now it will do.

again thx for the excellent advise(don't worry about the bugs,just keep a shoe around to kill them )

shade

[Ribannah]

For an even more realistic river, make it so that (going upstream) once you hit hills, the next squares can only be hills or mountains, and once you hit a mountain, the next squares (if any) can only be mountains. You DO allow rivers on hills and mountains, right?

[shade]

Ribannah:I'll think about it.(btw there can be more than 1 river that starts on a mountain )

You DO allow rivers on hills and mountains, right?
=> I'll answer this one with American eloquence=> Duhh.

Shade
(nice avatar)

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by shade
there can be more than 1 river that starts on a mountain

That you can still have, if you allow a second river (again, going UPstream!) to intersect.
If it does, don't continue the second river. Instead, add a small percentage to allow any river to originate from several streams.
To further reduce the chance of illogical circles and such, disallow the next square upstream to be closer to an ocean square (unless you enter hills or mountains).

[shade]

That would all be very good for realism,but I also have to make the computer understand it and that's a little harder

But this will all be for a later stadium when the basic game is finished.The algorithms I used now still aren't perfect but they were only to see if the rest worked fine(and it does).

thx for all the intrests.
(what do you think of the posted maps??)

shade